On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 08:29:12 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any > > > way, > > > then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from > > > God, and then > > > you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain > > > such behavior > > > through progressive revelation. > > But if you do apply certain minimal moral > > > standards to the children of > > > Israel then their behavior was unacceptable and > > > couldn't have > > > originated with God, and so those commandments in the Old > > > TEstament > > > must have had some other source. > > > Gilberto: > > Which assumptions don't stand up? And even if you are going to open up > > your mind and heart to the divine, is it true that it speaks > > everywhere equally? I mean, if a book endorses genocide can you > > seriously accept it wholeheartedly as scripture? Dave: > The very first sentence, "if...then..." draws an illogical > conclusion. The > second thought, "...if you apply certain minimal moral standards....then > their behavior...." also rests on insufficient logic. Gilberto: Logic is a funny thing. I think that standard deductive logic is often valuable but it needs axioms in order to say anything worthwhile. So I would agree with you that perhaps what I wrote rests on certain statements which haven't been proven (at least not in the context of our discussions), but I would still say those statements were reasonable (i.e. likely to be true). In terms of what the Bible says about genocide we can get to that in a sec but then there was your other comment that. > Now, in speaking of opening the mind and heart to the divine, if the only > example you can conceive is one involving the endorsement of genocide, don't > you think there's something wrong with that picture? I'm not sure what you mean. We live in a world where there are various belief systems which say various things. Not everything they teach necessarily comes from God. Some belief systems are wrong. The Quran, the Bible, the Tao Te Ching, How to Win Friends and Influence People, Mein Kapf, a Course in Miracles, the Talmud, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Communist Manifesto, etc. These books aren't all equal, they aren't all from God. I'm not sure why being open to the divine should mean believing everything in every book. But to address your concerns about the Bible and genocide, could you help me find a different way to read these passages? Deuteronomy 7 [1] "When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you are entering to take possession of it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites, the Gir'gashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, seven nations greater and mightier than yourselves, [2] and when the LORD your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them. [3] You shall not make marriages with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons. [4] For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the LORD would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. Deuteronomy 20 [The verses right before this passage say that in cities not in the promised land, if the city surrenders they enslave everyone. If the city resists, they kill all the men and enslave the women and children.] [16] But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, [17] but you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Per'izzites, the Hivites and the Jeb'usites, as the LORD your God has commanded; [18] that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices which they have done in the service of their gods, and so to sin against the LORD your God. And then if you looked at the entire book of Joshua you would read about how the army of the children of Israel went from city to city and killed everything that had breath. Men, women, children, infants, the elderly and livestock. And then later, under the reign of Saul, we can read in 1 Samuel 15 what God's intentions are towards Amalek And Samuel says to Saul: [2] Thus says the LORD of hosts, `I will punish what Am'alek did to Israel in opposing them on the way, when they came up out of Egypt. [3] Now go and smite Am'alek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.'" And then Saul defeats them in battle but fall short: 7] And Saul defeated the Amal'ekites, from Hav'ilah as far as Shur, which is east of Egypt. [8] And he took Agag the king of the Amal'ekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. [9] But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep and of the oxen and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them; all that was despised and worthless they utterly destroyed. [10] The word of the LORD came to Samuel: [11] "I repent that I have made Saul king; for he has turned back from following me, and has not performed my commandments." And Samuel was angry; and he cried to the LORD all night. So Saul is ordered to utterly destroy the people of Amalek and everything that they have. And then is scolded by God because he held back and didn't destroy everyone and everything. > On the other hand, if > you are stating that the Bible as a whole endorses genocide, then I simply > have to disagree with you. Strongly. I would say that if the above passage (including the book of Joshua) is a non-trivial chunk of the Bible and if they are inspired revelation then that strongly implies that there are times when genocide is not only permitted but required and commanded by God. Actually, even in the traditional rabbinic breakdown of the 613 commandments of the Torah, the genocidal ones are still explicitly listed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot 596 - 600 Destroy the seven Canaanite nations Deut. 20:17 Not to let any of them remain alive Deut. 20:16 Wipe out the descendants of Amalek Deut. 25:19 Remember what Amalek did to the Jewish people Deut. 25:17 Not to forget Amalek's atrocities and ambush on our journey from Egypt in the desert Deut. 25:19 I'm not sure how to basically get around the claim that at least some parts of the Bible really do endorse genocide. How would you do it? And then how do you respond to those texts. I mean, I would just stick to their plain meaning, apply the minimal moral standard that "genocide is always wrong" and conclude that those parts of the Bible couldn't have come from God. If you accept those passages as inspired, then somehow you have to accept genocide into your notion of progressive revelation. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
