On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 04:25:26 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Gilberto: > I think there are many different differences of opinion between the typical > Christian and the typical Muslim and I honestly don't think that the typical > Christian's > biggest objection to Islam is the idea of continuation of prophecy. > J: No, it is the logical conclusion that Jesus as the Son of God and Word of > God does not need to be replaced. Why would God replace His own word? Gilberto: No that's not it either. Gilberto: > Before even getting to that point, there is the whole, rejecting the > crucifixion, rejecting the Trinity, rejecting the deity of Christ, and top > of that is the whole woman-hating terrorist stereotype to get over plus > several issues on top of that before you get to the idea of scripture being > continued. > J: Can you blame them? Gilberto: I'm not blaming them. I'm describing them. All I'm saying is that the concept of finality of revelation is not as essential, or emphasized, or as clear in Christianity as it is in Islam. It's not the most common argument Christians have against Islam. Gilberto:. > > Also, Christians can't really use the verse in question in the way being > suggested because if Jesus said ""Heaven and earth shall pass away: by My > words shall not pass away." Luke 21:33 and this was intended to be some kind > of cap on scripture, well, the entire New Testament seems to have been > finished AFTER Jesus. > > J: This is funny. From what I remember, the Qur'an was also written after > the passing of the Prophet. Gilberto: Not in the same sense. The Quran was all written down on materials before the passing of the prophet. It was recited in prayers before the passing of the prophet. The early Muslims already had a concept of a set of recited chapters called "the Quran" which was fixed before the passing of the prophet. Everything in the Quran was spoken and in some sense implicitly (and probably explicitly) approved before the passing of the prophet. The same thing can't be said about the New Testament. It's not like Jesus went around saying "and in the future according to Luke I will say...." > So whatever the verse means, it shouldn't mean no more scriptures are > coming, even for Christians. > J: The same must also then apply to the Qur'an. This proves your statement > incorrect. > No. I'm not saying that "the Word of the Lord will endure forever" or similar phrases imply an end to revelation anyway. It's like you are trying to disprove an argument I'm not even making. I would say "seal of the prophets" implies an end to prophethood. And I would say that there are many different hadith which imply that Muhammad was the last prophet and the last messenger. I don't think I would use other parts of the Quran to make that argument. > Also I'm not even sure if I would say that Muslims are saying the words of > Jesus "passed away" > J: The fact that you have the Qur'an? I would suggest that the essence of Jesus teachings are found in Islam, even in the Quran. But also, from the Islamic side there is an alternative tradition of Jesus which is actually quite interesting and rich. There are two books which I have with alot of good examples. One is called "Jesus in the Eyes of the Sufis" and the other is more recent called "The Muslim Jesus" Some of the accounts come from hadith, but they also come from many other places. Some are reminiscent of things in the Bible but some are not in the Bible at all (although they share something of the same spirit). I was reading online that one of the Bahai central figures (Abdul-Baha I think) quoted one of these traditions. Where Jesus and his disciples were wandering and they came across the body of a dead rotting dog. And they all were commenting on the offensive smell. Except Jesus who said "But it's teeth are so white!" The one which is my favorite is the following: "One day as Jesus was walking through a village, some of the inhabitants began throwing insults at him. But Jesus answered by repeating prayers on their behalf. Later one of his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, you prayed for those people and wished them well. Why did you not invoke a curse upon them instead?" And Jesus is said to have replied, "I could only spend what I had in my purse." http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Belief_and_Islam/bbooks.htm > It seems to be suggesting that with God, God's speech exists in a form > beyond human language, but when God reveals that word to a particular > culture it comes out with particular sounds and letters in the form of > the scriptures we are familiar with. > > Which to me suggest that on some level the Torah is the Gospel is the Quran > etc. > > Although that's just a suggestion I'm throwing out there based on the > above site. > > J: No response. You're line of reasoning makes me uncomfortable. It makes > it seem like you are here to propagate Islam and do not want to learn > anything. Don't worry about the Baha'is, we already believe in the Holy > Qur'an. I don't know what you mean. I've actually been learning alot about Bahais in here. Asking questions. Trying to understand the differences in what Bahais are saying. Getting a better insight into how Bahais and Muslims might think differently about subjects which are superficially the same. From my side I think part of that process involves trying to state the Muslim side as clearly as I can and seeing what the response is, but I would think that's fair. How else might I procede? Peace Gilberto > > > > ________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > All your favorites on one personal page â Try My Yahoo! > __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to > Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a > blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use > subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies > is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web > - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - > news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - > http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - > http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - > http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > > -- "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
