On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 08:25:57AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> What do you think we should have done instead? debian-devel was becoming
> the standing debian-canonical-is-evil vs. debian-systemd-sucks standing
> flamewar. (I think people are already forgetting the whole Canonical is
> evil flamewar that was happening at the same time, with the same degree of
> vitriol that is now being levelled at systemd.)
That doesn't match my perception of the history; but part of this may
have been that the vitriol level escalated significantly once the TC
announced they were going involve itself in the debate, and it doesn't
look like it has gotten any better ever since.
That being said, I am sure that the TC got involved with the best
intentions, and most of the DD's involved in the discussions were all
united in their passion for wanting the best for Debian (even if they
agreed on very little else, at least on the systemd mail threads :-).
If only everyone could really internalize this belief; I think it
would make these discussions much less painful.
> I think people have an idealistic notion here that consensus will always
> emerge eventually, and it's easy at this point in the process to
> sugar-coat the past and forget how bad it was. Please, make a concerted
> effort to put yourself into the mindset the project was in during the fall
> of 2013. It's always easy to see, in hindsight, the cost of the option
> that was taken; it's harder to see the cost of the option that was not
> taken.
>
> Personally, I strongly suspect that we could have waited until 2020 and
> there still wouldn't be any consensus. And that has its own risk.
I have a different belief about the future, but (a) there was no way
to know whether things would have gotten worse back in Fall 2013, and
(b) there's no way any of us can know for sure what the future will
bring, or what would have happened if we had taken an alternate path.
All we can do is to go forward, as best as we can.
Because regardless of how this GR is settled, it doesn't really answer
the question about the use of all of the other pieces of systemd; or
at least, I don't think that any of the options are the equivalent of
a blank check adoption of systemd-*, whether it be systemd-networkd,
systemd-resolved, systemd-consoled, etc. And it sure would be nice if
we don't have the same amount of pain as each of these components get
proposed. (My personal hope is that if they are optional, as opposed
made mandatory because GNOME, network-manager, upower, etc. stops
working if you don't use the latest systemd-*, it won't be that bad
going forward.)
Regards,
- Ted
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