>>>>> "Luca" == Luca Boccassi <bl...@debian.org> writes:
Luca> With the provision that I know next to nothing about pam - if Luca> I understood correctly how it works, why not simply do both? Luca> Ship the default file in the package under both /usr and Luca> /etc. Then, you get the semantics you want with local changes Luca> tracking, and /etc wins over the defaults. I honestly had not considered this. It's a bit more tricky than you imply because it's not just pam that is involved with this but also all pam applications. We'd have to do active work to get every pam application to ship in both places. But as I said I had not considered this, and so it's something that I'm open to thinking more about. Luca> And we can have a Luca> working, bootable Debian container with only /usr. I'm not actually convinced this is a good thing. (I don't think it's a bad thing--I just am not convinced it's something we should be working toward). I'd rather see project level discussion of this and a decision that is something we want. I have significant discomfort aligning what you say (pam is the last blocker) with what several people said earlier in the week. What I heard is that there was no project consensus to do this, and that people were running experiments to see what is possible. If I make a change in pam and we're suddenly at a place where there are no blockers and we're moving forward, I think people in the project would understandably feel disenfranchised. To bystanders, "we're running experiments to see what's possible," means a decision is far off. I feel like if I were to fall in on this, I might be helping cause something to happen at a technical level, bypassing discussion that I believe would be healthy for the project. I appreciate the value of doing work and having people who are willing to do the work have a larger share of power in the decision making. And yet I feel like especially for project level things, it's valuable to present an idea, give people an opportunity to start working on alternatives, give people an opportunity for their objections to be heard, and see where we are *before* it's all but done technically. I think we've not done such a great job of the above in the past. Oh, we've had the discussions and the flame wars, but I think our past discussions have had a number of problems in common: * Because things were effectively close to done technically in the minds of those driving the change, they had a degree of power that made others feel disadvantaged and defensive in the discussions. * Sometimes when people have raised objections, they haven't understood the goals of people driving change. So while their objections might in principle be valid, they were not actionable because they didn't understand what the goals were. We've done a bad job of bringing those people into the discussion. Doing better would probably be part clearly articulating why the proposed fix doesn't meet the goals, and clearly articulating that if the person with the objection will do the work to understand the goal, then the rest of us will do the work to bring them into the discussions. * We have sometimes not done a job of giving people a chance to build alternatives--somehow saying that we've gotten to a place where there is interest in some particular goal, and it's serious enough that people need to either fall in on the plan that currently has momentum or quickly start putting energy into alternatives. Finding the point for this is tricky; it's important that if people really are motivated to find another solution they still have time to do so, but it's also important to realize that people may not focus on something until they see that an approach they do not like has momentum. ( Init systems are not an example where I think we had this problem; people knew that decision was coming and had a chance to explore alternatives.) * Sometimes people have walked away from our discussions confused about the outcome or feeling like their opinion/input was not considered. We've actually be improving significantly on this lately. I think the recent usrmerge discussions (say last two years) have been much better than earlier discussions at considering input and making it clear where the discussion ended up.
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