yes, i remember the meetup, where they created the manel article. there is a distinct lack of self-awareness in the community.
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote: > Nicely done. If you want to tweak the language, I would suggest to > put the recommended usage first, then the suggested corrections, as it > sometimes confuses people to give them examples then say they are > examples of incorrect usage. Also it would be nice to explain things > in very plain language, so people don't have to look things up. For > example, Urban Dictionary tells me there are "10 kinds of people in > the world, those who understand 'binary' and those who don't." > > The enwiki RFC I think is confusing because it was rewritten to answer > objections of people who originally voted against it, but the rewrite > was not introduced as a new proposal, "option 2" or whatever. Perhaps > this was the best thing to do, but whoever closes the discussion may > not be able to tell what people are voting for. > > Originally I wondered if such a proposal was really necessary as we > have MOS:GNL. Editors often use WP:MOS as a convenience even if the > page they are working with does not have its own guidelines. But when > I looked at the policy page for the requested change, the first thing > I saw was a photograph of sixteen men, two of them smoking pipes, and > zero women, with the caption: "Talk page discussions are usually held > before substantive changes are made to policies."[1] IIRC this is > called a "manel". A quick check of the "manel" article reveals a big > orange template disputing notability at the top of the page, in spite > of ample citations from the usual RS.[2] > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_ > guidelines#Content > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manel_(term) > > > On 4/12/17, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/ > > project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its > > policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming > > environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the > > discussions and vote! > > > > * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_ > neutral_language > > * > > > > The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group > > taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all > > the creative discussions that go on when so many international > > Wikimedians get together. > > > > If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively' > > Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies, > > see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL > > > > Thanks > > Fae > > Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+ > > https://telegram.me/wmlgbt > > > > On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I beg to differ with Anders final comment; > >> > >>> > >>> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in > >>> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream > >>> (if > >>> it ever will be) > >> > >> > >> I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use > of > >> neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one > of > >> the key pillars of the community. We can and must do better to ensure > >> that > >> everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis. > >> > >> If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual > >> then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which > can > >> best express our neutral position > >> > >> On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on > >>> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the > >>> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1] > >>> > >>> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but > >>> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the > >>> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have > >>> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is > >>> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I > >>> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for > >>> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non > >>> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the > >>> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk > >>> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults > >>> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat" > >>> > >>> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying > >>> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise, > >>> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern > >>> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting, > >>> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can, > >>> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers! > >>> > >>> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last > >>> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German > >>> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment > >>> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do > >>> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a > >>> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that > >>> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful > >>> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our > >>> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3] > >>> > >>> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using > >>> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening > >>> for yahoo addresses to this list. > >>> > >>> Links > >>> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump# > >>> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages > >>> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL > >>> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Fae > >>> > >>> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard <anthe...@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >>> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - > to > >>> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for > >>> > participation to the month of Francophonie. > >>> > > >>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki: > >>> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259 > >>> > > >>> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral > >>> > terminology. > >>> > > >>> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral > >>> "les > >>> > Wikimédiens". > >>> > > >>> > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the > >>> term by > >>> > "nous" (we). Seems to settle things. > >>> > > >>> > Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the > gender > >>> > neutral specific language accross the francophones projects. > >>> > Alternatives > >>> > (such as the "we") are possible but not always. > >>> > > >>> > Florence > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit : > >>> >> > >>> >> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our > experienced > >>> >> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn > >>> >> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to > show > >>> >> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for > >>> >> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for > >>> >> journalists writing in English.[1] > >>> >> > >>> >> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know > >>> >> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions. > >>> >> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and > I'm > >>> >> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for > our > >>> >> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors. > :-) > >>> >> > >>> >> Links > >>> >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they > >>> >> > >>> >> Thanks > >>> >> Fae > >>> >> Wikimedia LGBT+ > >>> >> > >>> >> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso <hashar+...@free.fr> wrote: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit : > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> I'm taking that further by > >>> >>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies > and > >>> >>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he > or > >>> >>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely > >>> >>> confuses me or at best. The example takes a sentence from > >>> >>> Commons:FAQ > >>> >>> which roughly looks like: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is > >>> >>> used. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> With the proposal to instead: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well? If using masculine as a > neutral > >>> >>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one > >>> >>> can > >>> >>> instead write: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other > languages. > >>> >>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender > less. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' > (feminine). > >>> >>> What some are advocating is using: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Un/une photographe > >>> >>> > >>> >>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for > >>> >>> 'administrateur': > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Un/une adminstra-teur-trice > >>> >>> > >>> >>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages > >>> >>> most > >>> >>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!). > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> -- > >>> >>> Antoine "hashar" Musso > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>> > New messages to: wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org > >>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > >>> Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote. > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >>> wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>> New messages to: wikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org > >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> GN. > >> President Wikimedia Australia > >> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > >> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > > > -- > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Gendergap mailing list > > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > > To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please > > visit: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please > visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap >
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