Re: Luck and salvation
Dear Barbara, Perhaps this is the quote you are thinking of... Sandra He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire! Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh p. 263-268 - True Seeker Barbara wrote: I don't know where I picked it up, but I recall reading/hearing that at the moment of death a person makes a choice to turn toward God or away from God. It doesn't matter how they lived their life, at that moment a choice is made. So someone who lived a life of service to the Faith can turn away from God, which I take to mean regrets leaving this life, and someone who lead a very material life can see the light and turn toward God at that moment. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luck and salvation
This goes back to the Oedipian Chorus saying solemnly Count no man lucky until he is dead. The Bab says more productively and usefully: WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men. Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise. Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom. (The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77) Regards, Scott The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luck and salvation
I don't know where I picked it up, but I recall reading/hearing that at the moment of death a person makes a choice to turn toward God or away from God. It doesn't matter how they lived their life, at that moment a choice is made. So someone who lived a life of service to the Faith can turn away from God, which I take to mean regrets leaving this life, and someone who lead a very material life can see the light and turn toward God at that moment. How they lived their life comes into play after that in some way that determines how near or far someone is from God. Infants and children are in a special category and are treated differently. At least, that is my understanding. Barbara Clements -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 - Release Date: 1/24/2007 6:48 PM The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luck and salvation
How do you define luck? Richard. - Original Message - From: David Friedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am unable to refute the idea that luck can be involved in one's salvation. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Luck and salvation
I am unable to refute the idea that luck can be involved in one's salvation. If luck can be involved then the importance of salvation would be diminished and it would raise the question of fairness. We are told in the Writings that how we end our life determines our salvation when we get to heaven. One could have lived a generally good life but lose everything if they finished badly. The problem I see is this: Surely some of the people who died young through accident or illness would have finished their life differently had they lived longer. Instead of being saved they might have got worse and not have found salvation or vice versa. Also, some of the people who lived longer would have died in a different salvific state had they died young. Surely some of the martyrs would have become covenant-breakers had they lived longer. According to the Writings children that died before birth receive God's mercy, which obviously means they are saved. This would apply to the Bab's son. Given that most of the Holy Family became covenant-breakers it would be likely that the Bab's son would have become a covenant-breaker had he lived. If luck is a factor in salvation then one's salvation at the time of death would not have the importance it has in the Writings. Obviously predestination comes into this discussion. Regards, David The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. _ Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @ http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Luck and salvation
Dear David, Your question reminds me of the old Mutazalite/Asharite [Free will vs. Predestination] debate. There is a story associated with al-Asharite's breaking away from his Mutazalite teacher. You can read it hear: al-Ashari posed to his teacher the cases of three brothers whose fates or final destinations were totally different. The first brother lived and died as a believer. The second brother lived and died as a non-believer or an infidel. The third brother died when he was still small or minor. The first brother was going to the Paradise because he chose to become the faithful or the believer and he did the good deeds. So the case of first brother was in line with the Mutazilite concept of free will and the Mutazilite concept of God's doing the better and the best things for human beings. God surely rewards the believer with the good and better life in the Paradise. In this case, the first brother is in the Paradise because of his good faith and good deeds. The second brother is going to be in the Hell because he chose to disbelieve and did the evil deeds. He is in Hell because of his choice and free will. He chose and did the evil faith and deeds and the unavoidable consequence of his choice is the Hell in the hereafter. For the second brother, al-Asharite asked his teacher, what was the better or best thing that God did to him? God permitted the second brother to live and die as an infidel and then to be in the Hell. His teacher replied that God punishes the second brother because he chooses the evil faith and deeds in his life in this world. God is just and His justice makes Him punish the wrong doer and reward the good doer. The third brother is neither in the Paradise nor in the Hell because he did not have enough time to become a believer like his first brother or to become an infidel like his second brother. Again, al- Ashari asked his teacher, what was the better and best thing that God did to the third brother? His teacher replied that God knows the best for him to die when he was still small or minor because if the third brother were to grow up, he would become an infidel or a non-believer like his second brother. Hence, it is better for the third brother to die when he was still small or minor. Al-Ashari said that why did God prolong the life of the second brother even though God knows that he grew up and old and died as an infidel? Being an infidel is not good for the second brother. If the Mutazilite concept of God's doing the better and the best things for human beings was true, as the Mutaziltes claimed, there would be no single infidel living in this world since an infidel is not good to live in this world. In the hereafter, an infidel is going to be in the Hell. God must make all human beings believers because the final rewards for the believers are surely the Paradise in the hereafter, if the Mutazilite concept of God's doing the better and the best things for human beings is an acceptable and reliable concept. In reality, infidels or non- believers are more than believers living in this world. Hence, the Mutazilite concept of God's doing the better and the best things for human beings does not agree with human history in this world. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. _ Ultimately these are imponderables, we cannot know the answers any more than we can understand God's unknowable essence. What we do know is His will for us as revealed through His Manifestations. And that is what we are responsible for. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
