Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Doug Jackson via cctalk]

'telnet ? that is very much indeed useful if someone wants to run a pure
old school desktop while managing !'

He he...

Of course it should be said that that old gear using Telnet shouldn't be
connected to the wider internet.

It's kind of funny when a kid in Sydney discovers he can turn off a city
block in Melbourne

Its frightening what I've learnt as a security guy working in control and
data acquisition gear (SCADA) for various utility companies

In a very Not Funny way...

Doug

On Tue, 24 Mar. 2020, 8:08 pm Stefan Skoglund via cctalk, <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> lör 2020-03-21 klockan 14:44 + skrev Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk:
> > On Sat, 21 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote:
> >
> > > >  Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI
> > > > remote site
> > > > manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal
> > > > server
> > > > unit, for 5 years now.
> > >
> > > That's this product line, itn's it?
> > >
> > >
> https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-combos.aspx
> >
> >  It is, however 5 years ago the choice was different and much smaller
> > (in
> > this category).  They have since switched from Freescale Power to ARM
> > as
> > the hardware platform, and presumably still use Linux with a custom
> > app to
> > drive it.
> >
> >  Control CLI access is over SSHv2 over IPv4/IPv6; likewise serial
> > port
> > access (both ways).  Per-port and per-plug user accounts can be
> > created.
> > There's also control HTTPS and I believe telnet access available, but
> > who
> > needs that?  Of course both can be disabled.
>
> telnet ? that is very much indeed useful if someone wants to run a pure
> old school desktop while managing !
>
>

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Stefan Skoglund via cctalk]

lör 2020-03-21 klockan 14:44 + skrev Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk:
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote:
> 
> > >  Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI
> > > remote site 
> > > manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal
> > > server 
> > > unit, for 5 years now.
> > 
> > That's this product line, itn's it?
> > 
> > https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-combos.aspx
> 
>  It is, however 5 years ago the choice was different and much smaller
> (in 
> this category).  They have since switched from Freescale Power to ARM
> as 
> the hardware platform, and presumably still use Linux with a custom
> app to 
> drive it.
> 
>  Control CLI access is over SSHv2 over IPv4/IPv6; likewise serial
> port 
> access (both ways).  Per-port and per-plug user accounts can be
> created.  
> There's also control HTTPS and I believe telnet access available, but
> who 
> needs that?  Of course both can be disabled.

telnet ? that is very much indeed useful if someone wants to run a pure
old school desktop while managing !

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[emanuel stiebler via cctalk]

On 2020-03-10 09:47, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
 
>> Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven
> 
> Any business that is not dollar driven will soon be out of business.
> Making money is what businesses do.  Sadly, that seems to be another
> idea that has fallen by the wayside in the US, like trust and risk.
> 
> bill

Hello Bill,
I recommend:

https://www.amazon.com/Built-Last-Successful-Visionary-Essentials/dp/0060516402

Makes a nice reading ;-)

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Cameron Kaiser via cctalk]

> > > Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using?
> > 
> >  Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI remote site 
> > manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal server 
> > unit, for 5 years now.
> 
> That's this product line, itn's it?
> 
> https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-combos.aspx
> 

That looks cool too. I'm using one of these:

https://www.digital-loggers.com/lpc7.html

Much cheaper, but not as functional. The WTI device looks quite fascinating.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT == 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce --

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk]

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote:

> >  Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI remote site 
> > manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal server 
> > unit, for 5 years now.
> 
> That's this product line, itn's it?
> 
> https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-combos.aspx

 It is, however 5 years ago the choice was different and much smaller (in 
this category).  They have since switched from Freescale Power to ARM as 
the hardware platform, and presumably still use Linux with a custom app to 
drive it.

 Control CLI access is over SSHv2 over IPv4/IPv6; likewise serial port 
access (both ways).  Per-port and per-plug user accounts can be created.  
There's also control HTTPS and I believe telnet access available, but who 
needs that?  Of course both can be disabled.

> That's neat! I actually never stumbled over this manufacturer, it
> actually looks quite like what is needed.

 As I say I did quite a research at the time.  The usual manufacturers I 
knew of back then didn't have the features I needed.

  Maciej

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk]

On Sat, 2020-03-21 00:21:16 +, Maciej W. Rozycki  
wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Mar 2020, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> 
> > > Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to 
> > > put all
> > > of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and 
> > > just
> > > today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair
> > > language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But 
> > > maybe
> > > at some time, there'll be one!
> > 
> > Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using?
> 
>  Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI remote site 
> manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal server 
> unit, for 5 years now.

That's this product line, itn's it?

https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-combos.aspx

That's neat! I actually never stumbled over this manufacturer, it
actually looks quite like what is needed.

MfG, JBG

-- 

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk]

On Fri, 2020-03-20 22:58:35 -, Rob Jarratt  
wrote:
> > Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to 
> > put all
> > of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and 
> > just
> > today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair
> > language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But maybe
> > at some time, there'll be one!
> 
> Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using?

I've bought a good pile of those from a local Do-It-Yourself brand
("OBI"), which was this product:
https://www.obi.de/hausfunksteuerung/wifi-stecker-schuko/p/2291706
Though I don't use the original firmware, but started to write
something on my own: https://github.com/jbglaw/obi-steckdose .
That's not completely finished, but my intent is to have the plug
available for powering the device, as well as using the ESP8266's
serial port (in combination with a MAX232) to make it a terminal
server as well. (Also, it shall be able to log any traffic to a Syslog
server, so that occassional Oopses etc. are preserved.)

  As an alternative which can actually still be bought, I'd like to
evaluate the Shelly Plug S (https://shelly.cloud/shelly-plug-s/), but
I don't have it here right now.

MfG, JBG

-- 

RE: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk]

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020, Rob Jarratt wrote:

> > Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to 
> > put all
> > of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and 
> > just
> > today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair
> > language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But maybe
> > at some time, there'll be one!
> 
> Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using?

 Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI remote site 
manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal server 
unit, for 5 years now.

 The reason I chose that device over alternatives (and with the amount of 
stuff to do with vintage hardware I chose to stay away from a homebrew 
solution so as to reduce distractions) was its ability to automatically 
power-cycle sockets if a device on the network (possibly one powered from 
the socket controlled) is probed dead, so as to reboot a stuck piece of 
communication equipment in an unattended manner.  This has been important 
to me as I cannot afford a travel to my lab whenever a minor disruption 
happens.

 It has dual power inputs too for redundant supply (I found it useful if a 
UPS fails, which I have seen happen many times with expired batteries even 
if mains supply remains live) and can also monitor the current load (at 
individual sockets) and the temperature, and then shut sockets selectively 
down automatically if thresholds are exceeded.

 The serial ports use 8P8C modular sockets, so I had some fun making 
proper 8P8C-MMJ patchcords for these console ports that use an MMJ socket 
rather than a D-sub connector (for those ready-made cables are widely 
available).

 As one I have got has 8/8 sockets/serial ports only I now have a second 
one on the way.

  Maciej

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Rod Smallwood via cctalk]

On 20/03/2020 21:28, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote:

Hi Maciej!

Long time no see!

On Fri, 2020-03-20 17:36:25 +, Maciej W. Rozycki  
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote:

Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the
VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more
concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of
them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :(

There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for a
good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite failed
(and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, care
for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently
expecting IEEE floating point support.

  I'm still here to help. :)

<3


  I expect to get at least one of my VAXen online RSN (a 4000/60, with
TURBOchannel).  As in a couple of weeks' time (if only not that damn COVID
thing!).  It boots our ancient VAX/Linux port with an NFS-root over a PMAD
interface.  Other machines may follow.

Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location
to put all of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable
power plugs, and just today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm
unsure (to use fair language) when there'll be a really up-to-date
working Linux port. But maybe at some time, there'll be one!

MfG, JBG


Considering the struggle I'm having installing any version of NetBSD on 
any of my VAX systems that would nice to have.


Rod Smallwood - Digital Equipment Corporation  - 1975 - 1985


--

RE: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Jan-Benedict Glaw
> via cctalk
> Sent: 20 March 2020 21:29
> To: Maciej W. Rozycki 
> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ;
> Peter Corlett 
> Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
> 
> Hi Maciej!
> 
> Long time no see!
> 
> On Fri, 2020-03-20 17:36:25 +, Maciej W. Rozycki  mips.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote:
> > > > Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to
> > > > implement the VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though
> > > > there were more concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I
> > > > don't know what became of them. Google shows a smattering of
> > > > efforts littered with broken links. :(
> > >
> > > There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for
> > > a good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite
> > > failed (and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for
> > > Linux, care for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs
> > > silently expecting IEEE floating point support.
> >
> >  I'm still here to help. :)
> 
> <3
> 
> >  I expect to get at least one of my VAXen online RSN (a 4000/60, with
> > TURBOchannel).  As in a couple of weeks' time (if only not that damn
> > COVID thing!).  It boots our ancient VAX/Linux port with an NFS-root
> > over a PMAD interface.  Other machines may follow.
> 
> Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to put 
> all
> of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and just
> today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair
> language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But maybe
> at some time, there'll be one!
> 
> MfG, JBG
> 
> --

Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using?

Regards

Rob

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk]

Hi Maciej!

Long time no see!

On Fri, 2020-03-20 17:36:25 +, Maciej W. Rozycki  
wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote:
> > > Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the
> > > VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more
> > > concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of
> > > them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :(
> > 
> > There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for a
> > good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite failed
> > (and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, care
> > for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently
> > expecting IEEE floating point support.
> 
>  I'm still here to help. :)

<3

>  I expect to get at least one of my VAXen online RSN (a 4000/60, with 
> TURBOchannel).  As in a couple of weeks' time (if only not that damn COVID 
> thing!).  It boots our ancient VAX/Linux port with an NFS-root over a PMAD 
> interface.  Other machines may follow.

Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location
to put all of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable
power plugs, and just today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm
unsure (to use fair language) when there'll be a really up-to-date
working Linux port. But maybe at some time, there'll be one!

MfG, JBG

-- 

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk]

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote:

> > Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the
> > VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more
> > concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of
> > them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :(
> 
> There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for a
> good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite failed
> (and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, care
> for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently
> expecting IEEE floating point support.

 I'm still here to help. :)

 I expect to get at least one of my VAXen online RSN (a 4000/60, with 
TURBOchannel).  As in a couple of weeks' time (if only not that damn COVID 
thing!).  It boots our ancient VAX/Linux port with an NFS-root over a PMAD 
interface.  Other machines may follow.

  Maciej

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 3/13/2020 10:30 PM, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote:

On Mar 10, 2020, at 7:59 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk 
 wrote:

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

On 3/10/2020 1:17 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:

I really liked the idea of running VMS on simh (and learning some more
skills), even if I had to register online. But when I looked, it
seemed I would have to make Polish users group first, became its only
member and president (hehe) and only then register... Holy Schwartz,
they tried to drag me on the dark side, but I resisted.


Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register (follow my 
earlier instructions).  They don't care what country you are from. All are 
welcome.  Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist license(s) that will last 
until the end of 2021 at least.

--
John H. Reinhardt

Was already registered, and got my current PAK text file yesterday (2 day 
turnaround, not bad).
Where’s the best set of current instructions to install from CD? I think I have 
actual Hobbyist CDs.
I want to install on my 3 capable machines:

VaxStation VLC
AlphaStation 300
AlphaServer 2100 4/275

Thanks in advance!


Philip Wherry's notes are still one of the best out on the net.  Just ignore the SimH 
portions. 

Since HPE nuked it's OpenVMS documentation site it's harder to find actual 
OpenVMS documents online but SUNY has a V7.3 site with most available.




V7.3 Install guide for VAX in HTML 
 and PDF 


And for Alpha in HTML 
 and PDF 


--
John H. Reinhardt

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk]

> On Mar 10, 2020, at 7:59 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL]
> 
> On 3/10/2020 1:17 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
>> I really liked the idea of running VMS on simh (and learning some more
>> skills), even if I had to register online. But when I looked, it
>> seemed I would have to make Polish users group first, became its only
>> member and president (hehe) and only then register... Holy Schwartz,
>> they tried to drag me on the dark side, but I resisted.
>> 
> Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register (follow 
> my earlier instructions).  They don't care what country you are from. All are 
> welcome.  Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist license(s) that will last 
> until the end of 2021 at least.
> 
> -- 
> John H. Reinhardt

Was already registered, and got my current PAK text file yesterday (2 day 
turnaround, not bad). 
Where’s the best set of current instructions to install from CD? I think I have 
actual Hobbyist CDs.
I want to install on my 3 capable machines:

VaxStation VLC
AlphaStation 300
AlphaServer 2100 4/275

Thanks in advance!

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Alexander Schreiber via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 08:08:43AM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a huge 
> > problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist
> > license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party 
> > stuff. But maybe now that's it's expired, or all
> > the companies things were licensed from are gone.
> 
> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same company.
> 
> HP has no motivation to spend time/money to release this. Also, the only way 
> CHM
> was able to release what we did (HP1000, 68K 9000 and Apollo) was having
> us release it only for non-commercial research/hobby purposes.

Which would be great - anyone still running OpenVMS on VAX for business
purposes presumably has the appropriate (non-expiring) licenses anyway.

So having OpenVMS VAX (and maybe even Alpha) released with an
eternal hobbyist license (strictly non-commercial research/hobby
purposes) would not only be a great win, but all we can really ask
for.

Kind regards,
   Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."  -- Thomas A. Edison

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[James B DiGriz via cctalk]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 01:30:46 +0100
Tomasz Rola via cctalk  wrote:
 
> In a future, all corpos will belong to AIs. And I guess AIs will be
> interested in discovering more about their, hum, ancestry. And they
> will be able to track down all remaining shoe boxen with punch cards,
> and use hobbyists for mutual fun.
> 
> So all that is required is to convince current management that those
> old tapes and plans and manuals have great value, which then can be
> mined with some "deep CEO", once it inevitably comes. They should
> believe it.
> 

Ha, ha, only serious? Sometimes you have to wonder, though, if either
men or machines will care at that point.

jbdigriz
---
 
It takes a mind, always a mind, to abstract meaning from each step through 
which the machine is directed by its specific man-built mechanism.

Stanley L Jaki

"Brain, Mind, and Computers"
https://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1972/JASA3-72Jaki.html

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[James B DiGriz via cctalk]

On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:06:04 -0400
Bill Gunshannon via cctalk  wrote:

> On 3/11/20 6:26 PM, Katherine Barto wrote:
> > 
> >   
> >> On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
> >> mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:  
> >>> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
> >>> Al Kossow via cctalk  >>> > wrote:  
> 
>  Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
>  company.
>   
> >>> After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned
> >>> over to a 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
> >>> inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or
> >>> source. Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm
> >>> just the wrong person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer
> >>> has the time, having moved on to newer platforms. In which case,
> >>> why not a FOSS release? I understand it's his baby, but still...
> >>> Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on
> >>> off and on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't
> >>> even have the binaries, but there you go.  
> >>
> >> I assume SysV means Unix SysV.  Unless there has been a change
> >> I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
> >> for use by the holders of the Unix IP.  I have a copy of that
> >> somewhere.
> >>
> >> bill
> >>
> >>  
> > 
> > Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org
> > 
> > Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4  
> 
> The last time I wanted access to anything newer than V7 I had
> to provide a copy of an original AT Unix license.  I haven't
> looked lately.
> 
> bill
> 
> 

Something like that may be a factor in the S1500. I have a running
system, but not with the full kit. No dev tools, no sources, no DNIO,
(for interfacing with DX10 and DNOS filesystems on 990s.), no TCP/IP,
and a few other things. 

 At one point the maintainer was offering source and binary
licenses, though for rather princely sums, as far as a hobbyist would
be concerned. I no longer see them on their website, but presumably
they're still available. If, however, they can be *sold* without
constraints from the current Unix owner, I would hope they could just as
well be opened up, and I would hope a similar argument could apply to
the OpenVMS situation. 

jbdigriz

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 3/11/20 5:38 PM, Frank McConnell wrote:

> That was well done.  I just wish y'all had got FOCUS 9000 included in that.
> Earlier than 68K and maybe HP didn’t have the bits any more but I think
> some folks have some bits.

It was all just luck and timing. The building that 1000 development was
literally about to be torn down, and the guy who was turning out the
lights didn't want to see it all die. He was also in touch with the
people shutting down 9000/Apollo support and we got the agreements
pulled together roughly the same time with the help of Anna Mancini,
who has since retired.

3000 was messy, they were in the same situation, but they wanted MPE/ix
released, but couldn't get it to go. We tried to make classic happen but
the two got intertwingled with the lawyers so it died.

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 4:26 PM Katherine Barto via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:
> >> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
> >> Al Kossow via cctalk  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
> >>> company.
> >>>
> >> After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
> >> 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
> >> inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
> >> Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
> >> person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
> >> moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
> >> understand it's his baby, but still...
> >> Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and
> >> on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
> >> binaries, but there you go.
> >
> > I assume SysV means Unix SysV.  Unless there has been a change
> > I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
> > for use by the holders of the Unix IP.  I have a copy of that
> > somewhere.
> >
> > bill
> >
> >
>
> Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org <
> https://www.tuhs.org/>
>
> Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4
>

32v has the grant. System III was not and is only available to compare with
other versions. You have to google for all the sources...

>

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Michael Kerpan via cctalk]

The PDP-11 and VAX versions of BSD have been freely available for years. As
soon as V7 and 32V were declared open source, that meant that everybody had
a valid Unix source license and were therefore eligible to download the
BSDs. IIRC, Novell or Lucent or whoever owns the copyright these days also
released whatever bits of V8-V10 could be dug up under a hobbyist license,
but unlike V7 and earlier, it's not actually open source. I'd love to see
System V similarly made available, but frankly BSD has more toys to play
with anyway.

Mike

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 8:06 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 3/11/20 6:26 PM, Katherine Barto wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
> >> mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
> >>> Al Kossow via cctalk  >>> > wrote:
> 
>  Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
>  company.
> 
> >>> After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
> >>> 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
> >>> inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
> >>> Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
> >>> person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
> >>> moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
> >>> understand it's his baby, but still...
> >>> Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off
> and
> >>> on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
> >>> binaries, but there you go.
> >>
> >> I assume SysV means Unix SysV.  Unless there has been a change
> >> I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
> >> for use by the holders of the Unix IP.  I have a copy of that
> >> somewhere.
> >>
> >> bill
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org
> >
> > Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4
>
> The last time I wanted access to anything newer than V7 I had
> to provide a copy of an original AT Unix license.  I haven't
> looked lately.
>
> bill
>
>
>

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 3/11/2020 12:10 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:

On 11/03/2020 00:59, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:

Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register (follow my 
earlier instructions).  They don't care what country you are from. All are 
welcome.  Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist license(s) that will last 
until the end of 2021 at least.


I registered two days ago. Can I claim my hobbyist licences now or should I 
wait two weeks until I end up on some internal system?


Thanks


Antonio



Last I knew it took a week or two for the information to get to HPE so they 
could validate when you use the HPE registration page.  YoOu can certainly try 
now.  Maybe they have sped it up.

--
John H. Reinhardt

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Frank McConnell via cctalk]

On Mar 11, 2020, at 8:08, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote (after Ethan O'Toole
I think):
>> Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a huge 
>> problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist
>> license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party 
>> stuff. But maybe now that's it's expired, or all
>> the companies things were licensed from are gone.
> 
> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same company.

And yet, classic-3000 MPE (V/R, V/P, V/E) does not involve licensed third
party stuff.  At least I think it does not, I think the OS is uniquely
developed by HP(E).

MPE/iX does, I know I’ve been told that it includes a Streams
implementation from Mentat which I understand was licensed on a
per-copy royalty basis.  That makes a zero-price license (even more of)
a money-losing proposition.  

It also makes release of classic-3000 MPE dangerous in that people may
assume that the release applies to MPE/iX as well, and that could leave
HP liable for additional per-copy royalties in future.

I think MPE/iX is not quite like OpenVMS in that there is no per-installation
authorization key for the OS.  The OS does check a machine ID in "stable
storage" that is expected to indicate that the machine is an HP3000 (as
opposed to an HP9000), and there are some other features that I believe
indicate the class of HP3000 and I think MPE/iX and add-on software may
check this for other purposes too.  

Which means that if the companies and people who are due per-copy royalties
get the idea that they can goose that revenue stream through legal threats,
HP(E) maybe can't provide a very good guesstimate of how many additional
copies (for which royalties have not been paid) are out there.  There might
be some arguments made that the payment should be based on manufacturing 
counts of PA-RISC HP3000s and HP9000s.  It could get expensive.

Well, that's my guess of why then-HP didn't want to go there, and I don't
think HPE today would think any differently.  There may yet be a revenue
stream from MPE/iX licenses as its paying users upgrade to newer hardware
and the Stromasys emulator.

> HP has no motivation to spend time/money to release this. Also, the only way 
> CHM
> was able to release what we did (HP1000, 68K 9000 and Apollo) was having
> us release it only for non-commercial research/hobby purposes.

That was well done.  I just wish y'all had got FOCUS 9000 included in that.
Earlier than 68K and maybe HP didn’t have the bits any more but I think
some folks have some bits.  May be AT but no more so than the
68K 9000 bits.

-Frank McConnell

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 05:57:16PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> Indeed so. AIUI this is the case with Symbolics OpenGenera. The
> company went broke, the domain name sold off, all employees
> terminated, etc... 

I am sure many of those workers were a little bit surprised about this
harsh implementation of non-disclosure agreement.

[...]
> But if some vestige of the company survives, owned by another, which
> in turn is owned by another, which in turn is owned by another --
> nobody knows enough about it or will take responsibility to sign off
> on making the 30-40y old software free. :-(

In a future, all corpos will belong to AIs. And I guess AIs will be
interested in discovering more about their, hum, ancestry. And they
will be able to track down all remaining shoe boxen with punch cards,
and use hobbyists for mutual fun.

So all that is required is to convince current management that those
old tapes and plans and manuals have great value, which then can be
mined with some "deep CEO", once it inevitably comes. They should
believe it.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/11/20 6:26 PM, Katherine Barto wrote:



On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:


On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote:


Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
company.


After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
understand it's his baby, but still...
Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and
on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
binaries, but there you go.


I assume SysV means Unix SysV.  Unless there has been a change
I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
for use by the holders of the Unix IP.  I have a copy of that
somewhere.

bill




Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org

Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4


The last time I wanted access to anything newer than V7 I had
to provide a copy of an original AT Unix license.  I haven't
looked lately.

bill

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[James B DiGriz via cctalk]

On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:18:14 -0400
Bill Gunshannon via cctalk  wrote:

(Regarding TI SysV)
  
> 
> I assume SysV means Unix SysV.  Unless there has been a change
> I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
> for use by the holders of the Unix IP.  I have a copy of that
> somewhere.
> 
> bill
> 

Already have V7. Thanks, though. 

TI's SysV was a licensed port of AT SysV, running on the TI S1500
Nubus machines. AKA HP 9000/1500. I have an S1505, one 68030 CPU.
SysV Rev 3.3, IIRC, but I haven't fired it up in a long time. That will
be remedied shortly. Previous TI Business Systems after the 990s,
BS300,600,&800 machines ran Xenix, IIRC, on Intel processors.
Very little on the web about them.  But I'm looking. 

No, Mac Nubus cards won't even fit on the S1500s. Opinions differ as to
who broke the standard :-) Then there's the matter of drivers. 

jbdigriz

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Mar 11, 2020, at 6:05 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 11/03/2020 21:30, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> Sometimes we get lucky.  Again, PLATO -- got permission to use it but the 
>> owner didn't have a copy.  Fortunately, someone else did (an actual 
>> still-running production system, on an actual CDC mainframe) and that person 
>> was willing to do the work to copy the system in a form we could use.
> 
> Wow. A CDC mainframe still running: I don't know why I'm surprised (given 
> this list) but surprised I am!

Not any more, but it was back then (2004).  I believe it shut down in 2009.  
FAA training system.

paul

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Michael Kerpan via cctalk]

IIRC, System III is not really "legal", as it was never re-licensed with a
BSD style license the way earlier editions were. Of course, the important
thing was the open source release of V7 and 32V, as that allowed the
various BSDs to be made freely available. 4.3BSD has much more in the way
of goodies than System III (or even System V) in any event.

Mike

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 6:26 PM Katherine Barto via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:
> >> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
> >> Al Kossow via cctalk  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
> >>> company.
> >>>
> >> After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
> >> 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
> >> inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
> >> Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
> >> person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
> >> moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
> >> understand it's his baby, but still...
> >> Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and
> >> on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
> >> binaries, but there you go.
> >
> > I assume SysV means Unix SysV.  Unless there has been a change
> > I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
> > for use by the holders of the Unix IP.  I have a copy of that
> > somewhere.
> >
> > bill
> >
> >
>
> Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org <
> https://www.tuhs.org/>
>
> Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4
>
> David
>
>

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[James B DiGriz via cctalk]

On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 13:52:21 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk  wrote:

> On 3/11/20 12:59 PM, James B DiGriz wrote:
> > In which case, why not a FOSS release?  
> 
> Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was
> VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them.
> 
> They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to
> the software have vanished.
> 
> 

HCL, maybe? They come immediately to mind as having the
necessary clearances that many BTOS installations would have required. 
Or would they have been too late in the game? I'm not clear on the time
frame of the outsourcing. Just a guess, anyway. 

Of course, the code might have ended up elsewhere, too, given those
types of installations. Not the only Unisys mysteries I've ever
encountered :-)

jbdigriz

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Katherine Barto via cctalk]

> On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
>> Al Kossow via cctalk  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
>>> company.
>>> 
>> After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
>> 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
>> inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
>> Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
>> person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
>> moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
>> understand it's his baby, but still...
>> Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and
>> on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
>> binaries, but there you go.
> 
> I assume SysV means Unix SysV.  Unless there has been a change
> I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
> for use by the holders of the Unix IP.  I have a copy of that
> somewhere.
> 
> bill
> 
> 

Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org 

Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4

David

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/11/20 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was
VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them.
They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to
the software have vanished.


So, in addition to many companies being reluctant to release rights to 
IP, a lot of stuff is just lost without a trace.


Happens all the time.  Like IAS.

bill

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk  wrote:



Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
company.



After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
understand it's his baby, but still...

Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and
on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
binaries, but there you go.



I assume SysV means Unix SysV.  Unless there has been a change
I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
for use by the holders of the Unix IP.  I have a copy of that
somewhere.

bill

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 11/03/2020 21:30, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:


Sometimes we get lucky.  Again, PLATO -- got permission to use it but the owner 
didn't have a copy.  Fortunately, someone else did (an actual still-running 
production system, on an actual CDC mainframe) and that person was willing to 
do the work to copy the system in a form we could use.





Wow. A CDC mainframe still running: I don't know why I'm surprised 
(given this list) but surprised I am!



Antonio


--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 11/03/2020 21:24, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 11 Mar 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was
VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them.
They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to
the software have vanished.


So, in addition to many companies being reluctant to release rights to 
IP, a lot of stuff is just lost without a trace. 



Yup.

Parts of the DEC Networking group got sold to Cabletron and then bits 
transitioned to Riverstone. Later VAX/PSI code made it as far as the US 
engineering team (who by then were part of EDS iirc). I don't know 
whether a copy of the DECnis code stayed with DEC - the copy with 
Riverstone wouldn't have gone any further (there were big layoffs 
involved so I doubt that anyone was checking that nothing vanished). 
More or less the same will be true for the Riverstone code. Some of it 
may have survived the fire sale a few years later but I suspect tracking 
any of that down might be hard to impossible.


The code I wrote at BlueARC is still going at Hitachi Vantara but the 
long-dead Si7500 code may no longer be on anyone's disks there. It was 
preserved on a set of DVD-ROMs (as part of the regular backup regimen) 
but the guy who handled that has left and there is probably little 
incentive to make sure it hasn't slipped through the cracks.


At least in the open source world (where I now work) most things are in 
a github repo. Admittedly those things do vanish every now and then but 
at least you have the chance to grab something now if you think it will 
be useful. Although given how interconnected things are these days, 
building something in 2030 that last built on today's Ubuntu 19.10 (or 
whatever) may require more effort than you think it is worth ... but at 
least you'll have the source code.



Antonio


--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Mar 11, 2020, at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was
>> VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them.
>> They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to
>> the software have vanished.
> 
> So, in addition to many companies being reluctant to release rights to IP, a 
> lot of stuff is just lost without a trace.

Sometimes we get lucky.  Again, PLATO -- got permission to use it but the owner 
didn't have a copy.  Fortunately, someone else did (an actual still-running 
production system, on an actual CDC mainframe) and that person was willing to 
do the work to copy the system in a form we could use.

paul

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 11 Mar 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was
VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them.
They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to
the software have vanished.


So, in addition to many companies being reluctant to release rights to 
IP, a lot of stuff is just lost without a trace.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 3/11/20 12:59 PM, James B DiGriz wrote:
> In which case, why not a FOSS release?

Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was
VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them.

They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to
the software have vanished.

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[James B DiGriz via cctalk]

On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk  wrote:

> 
> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
> company.
> 

After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
understand it's his baby, but still...

Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and
on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
binaries, but there you go. 

jbdigriz

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Lyle Bickley via cctalk]

To see if HP is still issuing VAX hobby licenses, a few days ago I applied for
same directly online. Today I received the following in a similar manner as
others have described:


Hello dear OpenVMS Hobbyist,
 
Please see attached for PAKs to use on your VAX or Alpha.
The attached file is a DCL command file; to load your PAKs simply execute it
 
$ @Hobbyist-USE-FINALVA.txt
 
Please read the following special notification.
 
  =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
  Dear HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist,

--snip--

The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be the
last set. Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses.
Attached is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final
licenses are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional
validity period will enable users to plan for the future.
--

I received the above from: OpenVMS Customer Lab .

I intend to contact them about a permanent hobbyist license - and as others
have said, it would make sense for all of us to do so. May I suggest the
following format for that contact:

1. Thank them for the hobbyist program!
2. Explain how it has made you appreciate HP more because of their willingness
to offer such a program.
3. State how you have helped spread the word about the goodness of HP because
of the program.
4. Express disappointment that the program is ending - and how it will affect
your hobby.
5. Ask if HP would be willing to consider offering a permanent hobbyist
license.
6. Suggest that there would be no downside to HP and would enhance the
goodwill that the program brings to HPE - especially since many hobbyists
also work with/for major purchasers of IT equipment.

Regards,
Lyle
--
On Sat, 7 Mar 2020 11:48:20 -0700 (MST)
Richard Loken via cctalk  wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Mar 2020, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their 
> > participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.  A number of people have 
> > received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record 
> > as having current Hobbyist licenses.  
> 
> I humbly suggest that HPE might issue VAX hobbyist licenses that don't 
> expire since they and VSI don't have a significant financial interest in it. 
> Removing the expiration date does not remove any obligation from the licence 
> holder and does not remove HPE's rights as the owner of the software.
> 
> Alpha and Itanium licenses are a differant matter, there is still a market
> for them and development continuues to some degree.
> 
> I only run an Alpha hobby machine so I have nothing to gain from a lifetime
> VAX license.  I have both PMDF and Multinet licenses that don't expire and
> I paid honest money for them but I doubt I can afford the price of a VMS
> license.



-- 
73   NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
https://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 11/03/2020 00:59, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register 
(follow my earlier instructions).  They don't care what country you 
are from. All are welcome.  Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist 
license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at least.


I registered two days ago. Can I claim my hobbyist licences now or 
should I wait two weeks until I end up on some internal system?



Thanks


Antonio


--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 at 17:46, Paul Koning via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> A company may close down, but that doesn't mean it is "gone" as far as its 
> property is concerned.  Ownership passes to others, perhaps creditors or the 
> like, or the majority shareholder.  Who that is may be quite hard to find 
> out, which of course is unfortunate if you're trying to get proper permission 
> to do stuff with that property.

Indeed so. AIUI this is the case with Symbolics OpenGenera. The
company went broke, the domain name sold off, all employees
terminated, etc... They don't trade or sell anything. But the new
owners will not permit use of copies of the OS on emulators, or any
other form of distribution.

In the ZX Spectrum world, which is probably beneath the attention of
most listmembers but is a thriving and active retrocomputing/hobbyist
world and probably one of the single most active areas in the whole
hobby, a lot of games' copyrights belong to companies that no longer
exist. In a few cases, they have been bought, and vanishingly few are
still trading. Rare (now a MICROS~1 subsidiary) evolved from 1980s
outfit Ultimate Play The Game. Rainbird was owned by BT.

In many cases, original authors of games have been located, and where
applicable, if the software publishing company no longer exists, the
authors assert that copyright returned to them and they explicitly
allow free distribution.

But if some vestige of the company survives, owned by another, which
in turn is owned by another, which in turn is owned by another --
nobody knows enough about it or will take responsibility to sign off
on making the 30-40y old software free. :-(


-- 
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Mar 11, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a huge 
>> problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist
>> license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party 
>> stuff. But maybe now that's it's expired, or all
>> the companies things were licensed from are gone.
> 
> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same company.
> 
> HP has no motivation to spend time/money to release this. Also, the only way 
> CHM
> was able to release what we did (HP1000, 68K 9000 and Apollo) was having
> us release it only for non-commercial research/hobby purposes.

It should be noted that HP is not the only company that does this.  CDC's 
successor (BT) did the same with the 6000 series software, and for that matter 
the owner of PLATO did this as well.  Hobby, yes, open source for any purpose, 
no.

A company may close down, but that doesn't mean it is "gone" as far as its 
property is concerned.  Ownership passes to others, perhaps creditors or the 
like, or the majority shareholder.  Who that is may be quite hard to find out, 
which of course is unfortunate if you're trying to get proper permission to do 
stuff with that property.

Then again, if the current owner is an individual, it may make things easier, 
once you get past the hurdle of finding that individual.  That was the case 
with PLATO recently.

paul

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/10/20 9:24 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:


On 11/03/2020 01:02, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:

On 3/10/2020 6:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:

Having worked for them in also not surprised.

When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed.  Significantly for the
worse.

I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and
ink cartridges in 5 years time.

They can't, they have no printers or ink to sell.  They already broke 
the company up into HP - printers, ink and PC's and HPE - Servers, etc 
(including OpenVMS until it was sold or licensed to VSI).


Then it is to VSI we must turn our attention. An email from every VMS 
hobbyist might wake them up.





Or, flooding their business mailboxes might just piss them off.

bill

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 3/11/20 8:07 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:

> No promises but my contact is at a fairly high level within HPE (and
> formerly SGI) so I am hopeful it will at least get discussed.

that's good. that is the only chance you have for getting anything done

i'd also suggest using the CHM example of getting releases in the past

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

> Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a huge 
> problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist
> license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party 
> stuff. But maybe now that's it's expired, or all
> the companies things were licensed from are gone.

Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same company.

HP has no motivation to spend time/money to release this. Also, the only way CHM
was able to release what we did (HP1000, 68K 9000 and Apollo) was having
us release it only for non-commercial research/hobby purposes.

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Chris Elmquist via cctalk]

On Wednesday (03/11/2020 at 10:46AM -0400), Ethan O'Toole wrote:
> >If something positive were to occur, IRIX might be able to be saved too.
> >Chris
> 
> Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a
> huge problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist license for IRIX or
> turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But maybe
> now that's it's expired, or all the companies things were licensed
> from are gone.

Right.  I think the challenge(s) are in this space and whether or
not anyone there would have bandwidth or interest in addressing them.

No promises but my contact is at a fairly high level within HPE (and
formerly SGI) so I am hopeful it will at least get discussed.

Chris
-- 
Chris Elmquist

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

If something positive were to occur, IRIX might be able to be saved too.
Chris


Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a huge 
problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist license for IRIX or turning it 
free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But maybe now that's 
it's expired, or all the companies things were licensed from 
are gone.



--
: Ethan O'Toole

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

The difficulty is that people are looking for a solution that is legal.
paul



They don't want hobbyists and computer collectors. They want people that 
can pay hugs sums of money. Usually these are people spending other 
people's money.




--
: Ethan O'Toole

RE: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of John H.
> Reinhardt via cctalk
> Sent: 10 March 2020 14:34
> To: Bill Gunshannon ; General Discussion:
> On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
> 
> On 3/10/2020 8:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> > On 3/10/20 2:31 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Rod
> >>> Smallwood via cctalk
> >>> Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14
> >>> To: Fred Cisin via cctalk 
> >>> Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
> >>>
> >>> On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
> >>>>> So.
> >>>>> At the end of the day there are three paths.
> >>>>> 1.  Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and
> >>>>> patch the abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
> >>>>> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
> >>>>> Or
> >>>>> 3.  Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785
> >>>>> machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate
> >>>>> headquarters because they can't do anything without software.
> >>>>> Sigh...
> >>>>
> >>>> 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
> >>>> altitude, . . .
> >>>>
> >>>> It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to
> >>>> do what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to
> >>>> try to help.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> --
> >>> Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven
> >>>
> >>
> >> I noticed that. I wonder how they would feel if I were to take my VAX to
> MakeFests with a notice on saying how much they want for a licence to
> actually load software and demo an antique machine
> >
> > They would not care and it would have no effect on their bottom line
> > so why should they?
> >
> > bill
> >
> >
> It would be bad PR.  But it's still unlikely they would care as the people who
> attend Makerfests aren't usually the ones that sign the contracts.
> 

You might be surprised.


> --
> John H. Reinhardt

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 07:59:49PM -0500, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> >
> Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register
> (follow my earlier instructions).  They don't care what country you
> are from. All are welcome.  Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist
> license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at least.

Yay! Thanks for explanation. I will try this route, I just need to
sort something out (economy slows etc, or maybe spasms). But if this
is so, I would like to have that thing, and at least once write
'help'. Or 'show proc' (if memory serves).

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Chris Elmquist via cctalk]

And if they went that way, it would be quite a big event in the supercomputing 
world because HPE now own both of the companies formerly known as SGI and Cray.

Someone on the inside is attempting to explore why this is happening.  If I 
hear anything, I will report back.

If something positive were to occur, IRIX might be able to be saved too.

Chris
--
Chris Elmquist

> On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:03 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 3/10/2020 6:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
>> Having worked for them in also not surprised.
>> 
>> When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed.  Significantly for the
>> worse.
>> 
>> I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and
>> ink cartridges in 5 years time.
>> 
> They can't, they have no printers or ink to sell.  They already broke the 
> company up into HP - printers, ink and PC's and HPE - Servers, etc (including 
> OpenVMS until it was sold or licensed to VSI).
> 
> -- 
> John H. Reinhardt
> 

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Rod Smallwood via cctalk]

On 11/03/2020 01:02, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:

On 3/10/2020 6:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:

Having worked for them in also not surprised.

When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed.  Significantly for the
worse.

I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and
ink cartridges in 5 years time.

They can't, they have no printers or ink to sell.  They already broke 
the company up into HP - printers, ink and PC's and HPE - Servers, etc 
(including OpenVMS until it was sold or licensed to VSI).


Then it is to VSI we must turn our attention. An email from every VMS 
hobbyist might wake them up.



--

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Mar 10, 2020, at 4:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and
> ink cartridges in 5 years time.

HP sells printers, HPE owns the rights to VMS.  These days they’re two 
different companies.

Zane

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 3/10/2020 6:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:

Having worked for them in also not surprised.

When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed.  Significantly for the
worse.

I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and
ink cartridges in 5 years time.


They can't, they have no printers or ink to sell.  They already broke the 
company up into HP - printers, ink and PC's and HPE - Servers, etc (including 
OpenVMS until it was sold or licensed to VSI).

--
John H. Reinhardt

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 3/10/2020 1:17 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:

I really liked the idea of running VMS on simh (and learning some more
skills), even if I had to register online. But when I looked, it
seemed I would have to make Polish users group first, became its only
member and president (hehe) and only then register... Holy Schwartz,
they tried to drag me on the dark side, but I resisted.


Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register (follow my 
earlier instructions).  They don't care what country you are from. All are 
welcome.  Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist license(s) that will last 
until the end of 2021 at least.

--
John H. Reinhardt

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 12:41:33AM +0100, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote:
> What about the International Court of Justice?

Hi, can we please not go down this route on this list?

I'm drowning in such things on social media as it is.  I like to
hang out on this last as a refuge from all that.

Thanks.

mcl

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Doug Jackson via cctalk]

Having worked for them in also not surprised.

When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed.  Significantly for the
worse.

I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and
ink cartridges in 5 years time.

On Wed, 11 Mar. 2020, 10:42 am Patrick Finnegan via cctalk, <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 18:36 Fred Cisin via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > > On 3/9/20 10:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> > >> but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to help.
> > >
> > > Which costs them money with very likely  no ROI.
> >
> > Some such companies spend money on advertising.  A well run hobbyist
> > program is good advertising.  It promotes brand loyalty and good PR.
> >
>
> Based on my day to day interactions with HPE as a company, this action
> doesn't surprise me at all.  They don't seem to want to do anything that
> isn't directly "extracting value."
>
> Pat
>
> >
>

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Patrick Finnegan via cctalk]

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 18:36 Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> > On 3/9/20 10:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >> but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to help.
> >
> > Which costs them money with very likely  no ROI.
>
> Some such companies spend money on advertising.  A well run hobbyist
> program is good advertising.  It promotes brand loyalty and good PR.
>

Based on my day to day interactions with HPE as a company, this action
doesn't surprise me at all.  They don't seem to want to do anything that
isn't directly "extracting value."

Pat

>

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Holm Tiffe via cctalk]

Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> 
> 
> > On Mar 10, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Since HP is killing the Hobbyist program, you all should make a Hobbyist 
> > license key generator.
> > 
> > That solves the issue forever.
> 
> The difficulty is that people are looking for a solution that is legal.
> 
>   paul
> 

What's legal?

Wasn't there that thing in the past with SARS, where the US Government
was threatening to break the BAYER Patent of an Medicament, if BAYER wouldn't 
sell
that cheaply to americans? (or something like this?)

What about the International Court of Justice?
What about Mohammad Mossadegh?
What about Maduro in Venezuela?

Please define what "legal"  means to you.

BTW: There is no need to make an "Hobbyist license key generator", that
thing already exists (as can be read in that thread here) and is
available in source code.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
  Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583
i...@tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On 3/9/20 10:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:

So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1.  Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3.  Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines 
and

arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters because
they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...
4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable 
altitude, . . .
It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do what 
they like,


On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

With their own property


Exactly.  Their ownership of the IP gives them the power and legal rights 
to do what they like.



but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to help.


Which costs them money with very likely  no ROI.


Some such companies spend money on advertising.  A well run hobbyist 
program is good advertising.  It promotes brand loyalty and good PR.


If done right, the cost can be negligible and break even:
A two layer license, with a VERY expensive "full support" that breaks 
even.
A cheap hobbyist license, without any corporate support "If you want 
support and questions answered, upgrade to 'full support'".  Charges 
sufficient to cover direct and indirect costs.


Happy hobbyists sometimes have some influence on corporate choices in 
their day jobs.



What a way to run a business.  :-)


Is a hobbyist program less effective as advertising than unrelated charity 
and "image" ads to brag about it?



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Mar 10, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Since HP is killing the Hobbyist program, you all should make a Hobbyist 
> license key generator.
> 
> That solves the issue forever.

The difficulty is that people are looking for a solution that is legal.

paul

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

Since HP is killing the Hobbyist program, you all should make a Hobbyist 
license key generator.


That solves the issue forever.

- Ethan

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 09:48:55AM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> They would not care and it would have no effect on their bottom
> line so why should they?

I think it actually affects their bottom line, just in a way that
would not make anybody fired, and this is why nobody would care. There
is no way a CEO would say to his subCEO "you have neglected our
supporters in hobbyist groups, I fire you". This would sound like a
line from this Star Wars parody, Spaceballs. This is something Dark
Helmet would have said as a president of Helmet PE (I have no idea
what "PE" could stand for).

I really liked the idea of running VMS on simh (and learning some more
skills), even if I had to register online. But when I looked, it
seemed I would have to make Polish users group first, became its only
member and president (hehe) and only then register... Holy Schwartz,
they tried to drag me on the dark side, but I resisted.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Holm Tiffe via cctalk]

4.3 BSD Quasijarus by M.Sokolov should be the last OS for VAXen,
I had it run on a MVII with UC08, a Tandberg SLR5 and some SCSI disk.
Should be still on the disk, have a copy on my webserver
(www.tiffe.de/Robotron) and there is a github repository somewhere
available.

Regards,

Holm

Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:

> Am I forgetting, but isn't BSD (4.3/4.4 as I recall) on the VAX?  That
> seems more suitable for running on classic hardware than moving to
> something newer.
> 
> Of course I got rid of all of my 11/780 and 11/785 systems (along with
> a smattering of VAXStations) years ago so I don't have any particular
> interest here.  ;-)
> 
> TTFN - Guy
[..]
-- 
  Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583
i...@tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Guy Sotomayor via cctalk]

Am I forgetting, but isn't BSD (4.3/4.4 as I recall) on the VAX?  That
seems more suitable for running on classic hardware than moving to
something newer.

Of course I got rid of all of my 11/780 and 11/785 systems (along with
a smattering of VAXStations) years ago so I don't have any particular
interest here.  ;-)

TTFN - Guy

On Tue, 2020-03-10 at 16:44 +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 2020-03-10 09:06:57 -0600, Warner Losh via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:48 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote
> > > Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what
> > > is "major" but to a rough approximation, there are no good open
> > > source clones of other operating systems of similar complexity:
> > > I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS, EmuTOS and a few others, but they're
> > > relatively simple.
> > 
> > Linux never was a thing on the VAX that was very good. It was too
> > late in
> > its life cycle to get enough love.
> 
> I quite apologize for that!
> 
> > Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to
> > implement the
> > VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were
> > more
> > concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what
> > became of
> > them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken
> > links. :(
> 
> There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for
> a
> good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite
> failed
> (and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux,
> care
> for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently
> expecting IEEE floating point support.
> 
>   I still have a good number of VAXen around, though all powered off
> and in good storage. We're actually searching for a larger room to
> put
> all the old iron in there, get them on cables (power, network and
> serial) and eventually even restart on hacking them.
> 
>   Hacking VAXen was a great thing do to! ...at least for me. I
> learned
> so much from doing so, about Linux, libc, their interface, about
> Binutils and GCC. It really made me "fit" for paid business. But lets
> face it: I'm in the fourties, have a family and a day still does only
> have 24 hours.
> 
>   So... Once getting all my hardware into usable condition is
> settled,
> I'd be quite willing to hand out serial and power access to them, for
> whatever you'd like to do. (If it's not already too late.)
> 
> MfG, JBG
> 

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[js--- via cctalk]

On 3/10/2020 8:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon 
via cctalk wrote:
On 3/10/20 2:31 AM, Dave Wade via 
cctalk wrote:




-Original Message-
From: cctalk 
 On 
Behalf Of Rod Smallwood

via cctalk
Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk 

Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist 
license program is closing



Like all large US corporations they 
are dollar driven




I noticed that. I wonder how they 
would feel if I were to take my VAX 
to MakeFests with a notice on saying 
how much they want for a licence to 
actually load software and demo an 
antique machine


They would not care and it would have 
no effect on their bottom

line so why should they?

bill



One reason could be, that it makes for 
good advertising and good sentiment.  
Many corps sponsor just for these reasons.


- J.

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk]

On Tue, 2020-03-10 09:06:57 -0600, Warner Losh via cctalk 
 wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:48 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk 
>  wrote
> > Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what
> > is "major" but to a rough approximation, there are no good open
> > source clones of other operating systems of similar complexity:
> > I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS, EmuTOS and a few others, but they're
> > relatively simple.
> 
> Linux never was a thing on the VAX that was very good. It was too late in
> its life cycle to get enough love.

I quite apologize for that!

> Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the
> VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more
> concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of
> them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :(

There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for a
good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite failed
(and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, care
for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently
expecting IEEE floating point support.

  I still have a good number of VAXen around, though all powered off
and in good storage. We're actually searching for a larger room to put
all the old iron in there, get them on cables (power, network and
serial) and eventually even restart on hacking them.

  Hacking VAXen was a great thing do to! ...at least for me. I learned
so much from doing so, about Linux, libc, their interface, about
Binutils and GCC. It really made me "fit" for paid business. But lets
face it: I'm in the fourties, have a family and a day still does only
have 24 hours.

  So... Once getting all my hardware into usable condition is settled,
I'd be quite willing to hand out serial and power access to them, for
whatever you'd like to do. (If it's not already too late.)

MfG, JBG

-- 

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[geneb via cctalk]

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:


I'm a genuine hobbyist - I've been trying to keep examples of every
os/system I've ever worked with to play with now that I've retired (either
hardware or emulation based). My VAX equipment turned to carbonised scrap
due to lightning a while ago and I'm now emulation based and have been
using the Hobbyist licence, but it looks as though it's just becoming too
much hassle to do it any more.  So I'm dropping the whole thing - sad, but
I don't have time for nonsense any more.


Google "pakgen.c" and continue to enjoy your retirement. ;)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Neil Thompson via cctalk]

I'm a genuine hobbyist - I've been trying to keep examples of every
os/system I've ever worked with to play with now that I've retired (either
hardware or emulation based). My VAX equipment turned to carbonised scrap
due to lightning a while ago and I'm now emulation based and have been
using the Hobbyist licence, but it looks as though it's just becoming too
much hassle to do it any more.  So I'm dropping the whole thing - sad, but
I don't have time for nonsense any more.

On the upside, a system I've never worked on has ramped up greatly - I'm
having a lot of fun with Multics and the dps8m emulator/simulator.  HPE -
have a look at the way Honeywell handled their legacy stuff and take a
lesson.

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 17:07, Warner Losh via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:48 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote
>
> > > 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
> >
> > There is FreeVMS, but there also doesn't seem to have been any progress
> on
> > it
> > in the last decade and its domain has been lost and taken over by a
> > squatter.
> >
> > Writing an operating system is *hard*, way beyond a weekend's hacking
> > which is
> > how most open source projects get going. Cloning an existing one is
> > doubly-so
> > because it has to be bug-compatible.
> >
> > Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what is
> > "major" but
> > to a rough approximation, there are no good open source clones of other
> > operating systems of similar complexity: I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS,
> > EmuTOS and
> > a few others, but they're relatively simple.
> >
>
> Linux never was a thing on the VAX that was very good. It was too late in
> its life cycle to get enough love.
>
> Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the
> VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more
> concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of
> them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :(
>
> Warner
>

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:48 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote

> > 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
>
> There is FreeVMS, but there also doesn't seem to have been any progress on
> it
> in the last decade and its domain has been lost and taken over by a
> squatter.
>
> Writing an operating system is *hard*, way beyond a weekend's hacking
> which is
> how most open source projects get going. Cloning an existing one is
> doubly-so
> because it has to be bug-compatible.
>
> Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what is
> "major" but
> to a rough approximation, there are no good open source clones of other
> operating systems of similar complexity: I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS,
> EmuTOS and
> a few others, but they're relatively simple.
>

Linux never was a thing on the VAX that was very good. It was too late in
its life cycle to get enough love.

Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the
VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more
concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of
them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :(

Warner

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 3/10/2020 8:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

On 3/10/20 2:31 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:




-Original Message-
From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood
via cctalk
Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk 
Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:

So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1.  Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch
the abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3.  Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785
machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate
headquarters because they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...


4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
altitude, . . .

It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do
what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to
help.



--
Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven



I noticed that. I wonder how they would feel if I were to take my VAX to 
MakeFests with a notice on saying how much they want for a licence to actually 
load software and demo an antique machine


They would not care and it would have no effect on their bottom
line so why should they?

bill



It would be bad PR.  But it's still unlikely they would care as the people who 
attend Makerfests aren't usually the ones that sign the contracts.

--
John H. Reinhardt

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/10/20 2:31 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:




-Original Message-
From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood
via cctalk
Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk 
Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:

So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1.  Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch
the abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3.  Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785
machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate
headquarters because they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...


4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
altitude, . . .

It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do
what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to
help.



--
Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven



I noticed that. I wonder how they would feel if I were to take my VAX to 
MakeFests with a notice on saying how much they want for a licence to actually 
load software and demo an antique machine


They would not care and it would have no effect on their bottom
line so why should they?

bill

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/10/20 12:13 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:

So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1.  Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3.  Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 
machines and
arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters 
because

they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...


4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable 
altitude, . . .


It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do 
what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to 
help.




--
Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven


Any business that is not dollar driven will soon be out of business.
Making money is what businesses do.  Sadly, that seems to be another
idea that has fallen by the wayside in the US, like trust and risk.

bill

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/9/20 10:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:

So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1.  Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3.  Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines 
and
arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters 
because

they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...


4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable 
altitude, . . .


It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do 
what they like, 


With their own property


but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to help.


Which costs them money with very likely  no ROI.

What a way to run a business.  :-)

bill

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Peter Corlett via cctalk]

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 10:07:45AM +1100, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
> At the end of the day there are three paths.

> 1.  Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
> abandoned operating system to fix the problem.

Welcome to the eyepatch-and-parrot approach of the rest of us on closed-source
platforms which never had a hobbyist programme to start with and/or the IP has
been scattered to the winds and it's unclear who to approach for a licence.

> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.

There is FreeVMS, but there also doesn't seem to have been any progress on it
in the last decade and its domain has been lost and taken over by a squatter.

Writing an operating system is *hard*, way beyond a weekend's hacking which is
how most open source projects get going. Cloning an existing one is doubly-so
because it has to be bug-compatible.

Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what is "major" but
to a rough approximation, there are no good open source clones of other
operating systems of similar complexity: I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS, EmuTOS and
a few others, but they're relatively simple.

> 3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines and
> arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters because
> they can't do anything without software.

Will this "drop off" be by B-52? :)

RE: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood
> via cctalk
> Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14
> To: Fred Cisin via cctalk 
> Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
> 
> On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
> >> So.
> >> At the end of the day there are three paths.
> >> 1.  Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch
> >> the abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
> >> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
> >> Or
> >> 3.  Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785
> >> machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate
> >> headquarters because they can't do anything without software.
> >> Sigh...
> >
> > 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
> > altitude, . . .
> >
> > It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do
> > what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to
> > help.
> >
> >
> --
> Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven
> 

I noticed that. I wonder how they would feel if I were to take my VAX to 
MakeFests with a notice on saying how much they want for a licence to actually 
load software and demo an antique machine

Dave

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Rod Smallwood via cctalk]

On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:

So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1.  Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3.  Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 
machines and
arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters 
because

they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...


4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable 
altitude, . . .


It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do 
what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to 
help.




--
Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven
 

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:

So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1.  Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3.  Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines and
arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters because
they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...


4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable 
altitude, . . .


It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do what 
they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to help.

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Doug Jackson via cctalk]

So.

At the end of the day there are three paths.

1.  Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
abandoned operating system to fix the problem.

2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.

Or

3.  Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines and
arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters because
they can't do anything without software.

Sigh...


On Tue, 10 Mar. 2020, 8:23 am Chris Hanson via cctalk, <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Mar 9, 2020, at 1:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 3/9/20 1:33 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
> >> On 3/9/2020 12:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> >>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses
> could still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration.
> >> As a Hobbyist license holder since 2004 I am well aware.  The language
> Bill used implied that no one would be able to legally run OpenVMS on a
> VAX.  I was saying that those who had bought licenses previously (implying
> commercial and other entities) should still be legal in running VAX OpenVMS
> even after HPE shuts down their OpenVMS activities.  Bill may have been
> intending just the Hobbyist (and educational licenses, too) but the
> language was ambiguous.
> >
> > Actually, as long as they can live with incorrect time Hobbyists
> > could use that last set of PAKs forever.
>
> That’s from a technical perspective, from a legal perspective their
> license expired.
>
>   -- Chris
>
>

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Mar 9, 2020, at 1:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On 3/9/20 1:33 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
>> On 3/9/2020 12:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
>>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk 
>>> mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses 
>>> could still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration.
>> As a Hobbyist license holder since 2004 I am well aware.  The language Bill 
>> used implied that no one would be able to legally run OpenVMS on a VAX.  I 
>> was saying that those who had bought licenses previously (implying 
>> commercial and other entities) should still be legal in running VAX OpenVMS 
>> even after HPE shuts down their OpenVMS activities.  Bill may have been 
>> intending just the Hobbyist (and educational licenses, too) but the language 
>> was ambiguous.
> 
> Actually, as long as they can live with incorrect time Hobbyists
> could use that last set of PAKs forever.

That’s from a technical perspective, from a legal perspective their license 
expired.

  -- Chris

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Kevin Monceaux via cctalk]

On Sun, Mar 08, 2020 at 03:21:27PM -0500, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
 
> IIRC there is about a two week wait from the time you get your member
> number on Eisner until the number is active in the HPE database for the
> Hobbyist license so you may have to wait a bit.

With one of my previous renewal requests, I made a typo and entered the
wrong DECUS number.  They still sent hobbyist license packs to me.



-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/9/20 1:33 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:

On 3/9/2020 12:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk 
mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:


    I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses 
could still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated.



The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration.


As a Hobbyist license holder since 2004 I am well aware.  The language 
Bill used implied that no one would be able to legally run OpenVMS on a 
VAX.  I was saying that those who had bought licenses previously 
(implying commercial and other entities) should still be legal in 
running VAX OpenVMS even after HPE shuts down their OpenVMS activities.  
Bill may have been intending just the Hobbyist (and educational 
licenses, too) but the language was ambiguous.




Actually, as long as they can live with incorrect time Hobbyists
could use that last set of PAKs forever.

bill

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 3/9/2020 12:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:

I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses could 
still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated.


The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration.


As a Hobbyist license holder since 2004 I am well aware.  The language Bill 
used implied that no one would be able to legally run OpenVMS on a VAX.  I was 
saying that those who had bought licenses previously (implying commercial and 
other entities) should still be legal in running VAX OpenVMS even after HPE 
shuts down their OpenVMS activities.  Bill may have been intending just the 
Hobbyist (and educational licenses, too) but the language was ambiguous.

--
John H. Reinhardt

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses could
> still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated.
>

The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration.

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 3/8/2020 11:14 AM, Lee Courtney wrote:

John,

Thanks for the heads up. What would you suggest one enter for the mandatory 
fields: Participating Chapter * and Membership Number *

Lee Courtney



You need to belong to a DECUS chapter in order to get the Hobbyist license.  The easiest way now (and 
cheapest) is to ssh to eisner.decus.org and log in with the username of "REGISTRATION".  That 
will take you through the process of getting an account.  These instructions are also a the bottom the 
page at   As a result you get a DECUS member number which you can use on 
the HPE Hobbyist registration site.  Participating Chapter would be "DECUServe" (it's at the 
end of the list).

IIRC there is about a two week wait from the time you get your member number on Eisner until the 
number is active in the HPE database for the Hobbyist license so you may have to wait a bit.  In 
the meantime you have an Eisner account which is an Alphaserver DS20 running OpenVMS V8.4 to play 
with.  If you are new to VMS then "HELP" is your friend.  You can find out just about 
anything you wanted to know starting with "HELP".

John H Reinhardt




On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 3:34 AM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:

For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their 
participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.  A number of people have 
received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record as 
having current Hobbyist licenses.


If you have any current or future ( at least before the end of 2021 ) 
interest in Hobbyist licenses for any version of OpenVMS from 5.0 through 8.4 
for VAX ( only up to 7.3) or Alpha and Itanium, then register now.  HPE is 
looking to find out how many are interested in Hobbyist offerings and even 
though the new license will be good through 2021, I don't expect them to be 
generating them past the end of 2020 and maybe sooner.

Register for Hobbyist PAKs at one of the following (I suggest the HPE 
address first):

https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548

http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php
     Note the underscore between hobbyist and registration in 
hobbyist_registration.

One Hobbyist user reports this:


     I’ve just received an update from the OpenVMS Customer lab:

     Here’s the message from the OpenVMS team.  The idea was that hobbyists 
would visit the site and renew their licenses, and in response, we would 
provide the final set of licenses,

     explaining the scenario:

     =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

        As we approach the end of the HPE OpenVMS V8.4 standard support 
period, HPE

        plans to conclude the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program.

        The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be 
the last set.

        Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. 
Attached

        is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final 
licenses

        are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional 
validity

        period will enable users to plan for the future.

        Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are 
encouraged to

        purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact 
[Fellman, Jon]

        mailto:jon.fell...@hpe.com> >> for the same.

     =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

     Cheers, Wiz!!


John H. Reinhardt


*From:*owner-hec...@update.uu.se  
[mailto:owner-hec...@update.uu.se ] *On Behalf Of 
*David Moylan
*Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 4:14 PM
*To:* hec...@update.uu.se 
*Subject:* [HECnet] HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

Hi all,

Just received the e-mail below. I’ve hunted around all the various Hobbyist 
locations and licensing pages and can’t find any additional information.

I’ve already replied back to ask what the impact of Hobbyist renewal 
licensing will be. I have no further information at this stage.

Have others received this as well? Does anyone have any further knowledge 
on this?

I can see a few people have forwarded/posted the same message on 
comp.os.vms.

Cheers, Wiz!!

*From:*OpenVMS Customer Lab [mailto:openvmscustomer...@hpe.com 
]
*Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 3:13 PM
*Cc:* OpenVMS Customer Lab
*Subject:* OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification

Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist,

This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist 
license program in alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap.

If you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the 
earliest through the usual license renewal webpage.

Thank you.

  

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Lee Courtney via cctalk]

John,

Thanks for the heads up. What would you suggest one enter for the mandatory
fields: Participating Chapter * and Membership Number *

Lee Courtney

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 3:34 AM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their
> participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.  A number of people have
> received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record
> as having current Hobbyist licenses.
>
>
> If you have any current or future ( at least before the end of 2021 )
> interest in Hobbyist licenses for any version of OpenVMS from 5.0 through
> 8.4 for VAX ( only up to 7.3) or Alpha and Itanium, then register now.  HPE
> is looking to find out how many are interested in Hobbyist offerings and
> even though the new license will be good through 2021, I don't expect them
> to be generating them past the end of 2020 and maybe sooner.
>
> Register for Hobbyist PAKs at one of the following (I suggest the HPE
> address first):
>
> https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548
>
> http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php
> Note the underscore between hobbyist and registration in
> hobbyist_registration.
>
> One Hobbyist user reports this:
>
>
> I’ve just received an update from the OpenVMS Customer lab:
>
> Here’s the message from the OpenVMS team.  The idea was that hobbyists
> would visit the site and renew their licenses, and in response, we would
> provide the final set of licenses,
>
> explaining the scenario:
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>As we approach the end of the HPE OpenVMS V8.4 standard support
> period, HPE
>
>plans to conclude the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program.
>
>The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be
> the last set.
>
>Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses.
> Attached
>
>is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final
> licenses
>
>are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional
> validity
>
>period will enable users to plan for the future.
>
>Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are
> encouraged to
>
>purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact
> [Fellman, Jon]
>
>mailto:jon.fell...@hpe.com>> for the same.
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
> Cheers, Wiz!!
>
>
> John H. Reinhardt
>
>
> *From:*owner-hec...@update.uu.se [mailto:owner-hec...@update.uu.se] *On
> Behalf Of *David Moylan
> *Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 4:14 PM
> *To:* hec...@update.uu.se
> *Subject:* [HECnet] HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
>
> Hi all,
>
> Just received the e-mail below. I’ve hunted around all the various
> Hobbyist locations and licensing pages and can’t find any additional
> information.
>
> I’ve already replied back to ask what the impact of Hobbyist renewal
> licensing will be. I have no further information at this stage.
>
> Have others received this as well? Does anyone have any further knowledge
> on this?
>
> I can see a few people have forwarded/posted the same message on
> comp.os.vms.
>
> Cheers, Wiz!!
>
> *From:*OpenVMS Customer Lab [mailto:openvmscustomer...@hpe.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 3:13 PM
> *Cc:* OpenVMS Customer Lab
> *Subject:* OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification
>
> Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist,
>
> This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist
> license program in alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap.
>
> If you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the
> earliest through the usual license renewal webpage.
>
> Thank you.
>
> HPE OpenVMS team
>
>

-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 3/7/2020 5:23 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

On 3/7/20 9:10 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:

On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk  
wrote:


Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a
proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...

Mike


If VSI doesn’t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will 
it be possible to buy VAX licenses?  I’m curious as about five years ago, I had 
to help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project.


My understanding is if something doesn't change to allow VSI to
issue VAX licenses there will be no way to legally run a VMS on
a VAX as HPE will be out of the business completely.

bill


I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses could still 
run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated.

--
John H. Reinhardt

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/7/20 9:10 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:

On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk  
wrote:


Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a
proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...

Mike


If VSI doesn’t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will 
it be possible to buy VAX licenses?  I’m curious as about five years ago, I had 
to help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project.


My understanding is if something doesn't change to allow VSI to
issue VAX licenses there will be no way to legally run a VMS on
a VAX as HPE will be out of the business completely.

bill

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Richard Loken via cctalk]

On Sat, 7 Mar 2020, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:

For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their 
participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.  A number of people have 
received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record 
as having current Hobbyist licenses.


I humbly suggest that HPE might issue VAX hobbyist licenses that don't 
expire since they and VSI don't have a significant financial interest in it. 
Removing the expiration date does not remove any obligation from the licence 
holder and does not remove HPE's rights as the owner of the software.


Alpha and Itanium licenses are a differant matter, there is still a market
for them and development continuues to some degree.

I only run an Alpha hobby machine so I have nothing to gain from a lifetime
VAX license.  I have both PMDF and Multinet licenses that don't expire and
I paid honest money for them but I doubt I can afford the price of a VMS
license.
--
  Richard Loken VE6BSV: "...underneath those tuques we wear,
  Athabasca, Alberta Canada   : our heads are naked!"
  ** rllo...@telus.net ** :- Arthur Black

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Jason Howe via cctalk]

One of the machines I have still has it's permanent license (along with 
the pretty paper license) for the OS.  It's all the auxiliary packages 
you need to do anything useful that are going to be the headache.


--Jason

On 3/7/20 9:27 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:



On Mar 7, 2020, at 9:07 AM, John H. Reinhardt 
 wrote:

On 3/7/2020 8:10 AM, Zane Healy wrote:

On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:

Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a
proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...

Mike

If VSI doesn’t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will 
it be possible to buy VAX licenses?  I’m curious as about five years ago, I had 
to help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project.
Zane

On the HECnet list, David Moylan had sent an inqujiry to the OpenVMS Customer 
Lab and got this as a response

"  Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to

  purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact [Fellman, Jon]

   for the same."


So this HP person, Jon Fellman looks like the person to ask about buying an OpenVMS VAX 
license.  I've sent him an email but I don't expect a response until Monday at least.  
The "standard prices" part doesn't' look encouraging.

--
John H. Reinhardt
  
The thing is, most people don’t know they need a real VAX/VMS license, until they find themselves doing something that will require it at some point in the future.  It’s not a normal need, but it is one I’ve seen.  I sure can’t justify buying any right now.


Zane

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 3/7/2020 8:10 AM, Zane Healy wrote:

On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:


Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a
proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...

Mike


If VSI doesn’t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will 
it be possible to buy VAX licenses?  I’m curious as about five years ago, I had 
to help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project.

Zane




On the HECnet list, David Moylan had sent an inqujiry to the OpenVMS Customer 
Lab and got this as a response

"  Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to

  purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact [Fellman, Jon]

   for the same."


So this HP person, Jon Fellman looks like the person to ask about buying an OpenVMS VAX 
license.  I've sent him an email but I don't expect a response until Monday at least.  
The "standard prices" part doesn't' look encouraging.

--
John H. Reinhardt

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a
> proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
> issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
> legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
> we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...
> 
> Mike

If VSI doesn’t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will 
it be possible to buy VAX licenses?  I’m curious as about five years ago, I had 
to help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project.

Zane

Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing

[Michael Kerpan via cctalk]

Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a
proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...

Mike

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020, 6:33 AM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their
> participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.  A number of people have
> received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record
> as having current Hobbyist licenses.
>
>
> If you have any current or future ( at least before the end of 2021 )
> interest in Hobbyist licenses for any version of OpenVMS from 5.0 through
> 8.4 for VAX ( only up to 7.3) or Alpha and Itanium, then register now.  HPE
> is looking to find out how many are interested in Hobbyist offerings and
> even though the new license will be good through 2021, I don't expect them
> to be generating them past the end of 2020 and maybe sooner.
>
> Register for Hobbyist PAKs at one of the following (I suggest the HPE
> address first):
>
> https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548
>
> http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php
> Note the underscore between hobbyist and registration in
> hobbyist_registration.
>
> One Hobbyist user reports this:
>
>
> I’ve just received an update from the OpenVMS Customer lab:
>
> Here’s the message from the OpenVMS team.  The idea was that hobbyists
> would visit the site and renew their licenses, and in response, we would
> provide the final set of licenses,
>
> explaining the scenario:
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>As we approach the end of the HPE OpenVMS V8.4 standard support
> period, HPE
>
>plans to conclude the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program.
>
>The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be
> the last set.
>
>Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses.
> Attached
>
>is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final
> licenses
>
>are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional
> validity
>
>period will enable users to plan for the future.
>
>Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are
> encouraged to
>
>purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact
> [Fellman, Jon]
>
>mailto:jon.fell...@hpe.com>> for the same.
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
> Cheers, Wiz!!
>
>
> John H. Reinhardt
>
>
> *From:*owner-hec...@update.uu.se [mailto:owner-hec...@update.uu.se] *On
> Behalf Of *David Moylan
> *Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 4:14 PM
> *To:* hec...@update.uu.se
> *Subject:* [HECnet] HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
>
> Hi all,
>
> Just received the e-mail below. I’ve hunted around all the various
> Hobbyist locations and licensing pages and can’t find any additional
> information.
>
> I’ve already replied back to ask what the impact of Hobbyist renewal
> licensing will be. I have no further information at this stage.
>
> Have others received this as well? Does anyone have any further knowledge
> on this?
>
> I can see a few people have forwarded/posted the same message on
> comp.os.vms.
>
> Cheers, Wiz!!
>
> *From:*OpenVMS Customer Lab [mailto:openvmscustomer...@hpe.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 3:13 PM
> *Cc:* OpenVMS Customer Lab
> *Subject:* OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification
>
> Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist,
>
> This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist
> license program in alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap.
>
> If you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the
> earliest through the usual license renewal webpage.
>
> Thank you.
>
> HPE OpenVMS team
>
>