Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Scott Quinn via cctalk]

On Fri, 2021-09-24 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote:
> > supported by any release licensed by VSI, and they changed the
> > PRODUCER
> > key so you can't use those PAKs on DEC/CPQ/HP variants of VMS.
> 
> Part of their licensing agreement with HPE which prohibits them from
> selling/licensing any previous version of OpenVMS that they haven't
> worked on.
> 
> > HP stopped issuing new hobbyist PAKs back very early in 2020. I put
> > in
> > for a renew March or so and never got it. They were so
> > disinterested in
> > the program that they didn't mention stopping it, so I guess it
> > isn't
> > surprising that the page is still up.
> 
> If it's a VAX PAK you need, contact me and I can send you a copy of
> the last VAX OpenVMS Hobbyist PAK sent out.? Note that it expires on
> 1-JAN-2022 so it's good only for a few more months.

Yeah, would have been nice if they would have handed it off to Montegar
again for VAX/early Alpha with the understanding that (a) it would be
the same restrictions that DEC/CPQ/HP had and (b) they weren't bugged
about it ever again. Sigh. Fits into the HP model of "buy and bury" I
guess. At least VAX has other options.

Anyone succeeded in patching the DCL security hole for VAX? I know it
wasn't officially fixed.

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 9/23/2021 8:12 AM, Scott Quinn via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 2021-09-22 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote:

Currently the Hobbyist Program covers Alpha and Itanium.  We?ve been
told it will cover x86 at some point.  I for one can?t wait for x86,
as I don?t really want to add an Itanium to run some of the newer
software.

Zane

Not even that... looked at the VSI stuff and it is only the newest
Alphas that are supported. 21064/21164 and, I believe, 21264 are not


The VSI SPD for OpenVMS V8.4-2L1 (the version given with the VSI Commumity License program) 
indicated DS10 and newer.  However, as often mentioned, there is a difference between 
"supported" and "works".  People in comp.os.vms have installed the VSI releases 
on Alphastation 255's Alphaserver 800/1200 and other EV4 and EV5 Alphas.  VSI won't mark them as 
supported probably because they don't have any such systems to test on or just don't want to bother 
testing on such systems.

If you have somehow gotten a copy of VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L2 then it was 
specifically built to support EV6 and newer Alphas.  It will NOT work on older 
systems such as the AlphaServer 800/1200/4100 and AlphaStation 255 series.


supported by any release licensed by VSI, and they changed the PRODUCER
key so you can't use those PAKs on DEC/CPQ/HP variants of VMS.


Part of their licensing agreement with HPE which prohibits them from 
selling/licensing any previous version of OpenVMS that they haven't worked on.


HP stopped issuing new hobbyist PAKs back very early in 2020. I put in
for a renew March or so and never got it. They were so disinterested in
the program that they didn't mention stopping it, so I guess it isn't
surprising that the page is still up.


If it's a VAX PAK you need, contact me and I can send you a copy of the last 
VAX OpenVMS Hobbyist PAK sent out.  Note that it expires on 1-JAN-2022 so it's 
good only for a few more months.



Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I
was always told. Anyway, good system, pretty solid, expect to do a LOT
of typing for commands if you're used to UNIX, and don't put any VAX
with a public DCL account on the Internet because there is a huge
security hole in DCL that was never fixed for VAX.



--

John H. Reinhardt

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 9/22/2021 7:21 AM, Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote:

Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help!

I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- a cross 
compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. My goal is to 
get the source code building and experiment with the compiler a bit.

Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how to 
install or use it.

Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make it 
possible to send files to it from my Linux box?

I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available.


That is pretty much it for VAX emulation.  Going with the V4 release stream 
gives you a number of options, but they are all basically the same.



I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've filled 
out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning while I wait.



That will be a long wait.  HPE stopped responding to OpenVMS Hobbyist requests 
around May 2020.  If you email me I can send you a copy of the last set of VAX 
OpenVMS PAKs that were sent out.  They are generic, as opposed to what they 
used to send out which had authorization # tailored to each requestor.  These 
are good only for a few more months s they expire on 1-Jan-2022.  As they were 
generic and the last Hobbyist PAKS that HPE was going to send out we got 
unofficial (from Hari, the HPE employee in India that ran the Hobbyist program) 
permission to give them to anyone that asked.


You don't say how old the software is that you want to run.  If it's VAX/VMS V4 
vintage then you gan get away without the PAKS as that is pre-LMF and PAK 
usage. But then again, V4.7 era is somewhat harder to install and set up than a 
V7.3 (the last VAX version)



Cheers
Phil.



--
John H. Reinhardt

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Pete Turnbull via cctalk]

On 23/09/2021 14:23, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Scott Quinn via cctalk  
wrote:
...
Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I
was always told.


I don't know how close it is to RSX, but I do know that RSTS (V9 and later) DCL 
was explicitly modeled on VMS DCL


RSX originally used MCR, but later (from about 3.2 IIRC) had DCL as an 
option, and that's where VMS DCL came from.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Scott Quinn via cctalk  
> wrote:
> ...
> Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I
> was always told.

I don't know how close it is to RSX, but I do know that RSTS (V9 and later) DCL 
was explicitly modeled on VMS DCL, including the DCL functions for use in 
command files.  They aren't identical for various reasons, but close, and 
similar in capability.  Another VMS-inspired RSTS item (also in V9) is BACKUP, 
which produces backup sets that VMS can read, and with limitations due to the 
file system differences can read at least some VMS backup sets.

paul

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Scott Quinn via cctalk]

On Wed, 2021-09-22 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote:
> Currently the Hobbyist Program covers Alpha and Itanium.  We?ve been
> told it will cover x86 at some point.  I for one can?t wait for x86,
> as I don?t really want to add an Itanium to run some of the newer
> software.
> 
> Zane

Not even that... looked at the VSI stuff and it is only the newest
Alphas that are supported. 21064/21164 and, I believe, 21264 are not
supported by any release licensed by VSI, and they changed the PRODUCER
key so you can't use those PAKs on DEC/CPQ/HP variants of VMS.

HP stopped issuing new hobbyist PAKs back very early in 2020. I put in
for a renew March or so and never got it. They were so disinterested in
the program that they didn't mention stopping it, so I guess it isn't
surprising that the page is still up.

Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I
was always told. Anyway, good system, pretty solid, expect to do a LOT
of typing for commands if you're used to UNIX, and don't put any VAX
with a public DCL account on the Internet because there is a huge
security hole in DCL that was never fixed for VAX.

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 18:28, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Not true.  HP still owns it. VSI is licensed to continue development,
> nothing more.  HPE no longer cares about VMS and the Hobbyist Program
> has ended.  VSI has a Hobbyist type program but it does not cover VAX.

I sit corrected.

The upshot is the same, though...


-- 
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Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
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Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Sep 22, 2021, at 11:21 AM, Antonio Carlini  wrote:
> On 22/09/2021 17:05, Zane Healy wrote:
>> 
>> Interesting, I have 3 34GB drives in my cluster, and haven’t had any issue.
> 
> 
> I think I was running OpenVMS VAX V7.2 on SIMH. IIRC it was fixed in V7.3 
> (someone sent me the DECUS Hobbyist V7.3 release and that was OK).

That would explain it, I’m running OpenVMS/VAX v7.3 along with OpenVMS/Alpha 
v8.3 and v8.4 in the cluster.  What really surprised me is that SIMH can serve 
up an ODS-5 disk on the Cluster for OpenVMS/Alpha.

Zane

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 22/09/2021 17:05, Zane Healy wrote:


Interesting, I have 3 34GB drives in my cluster, and haven’t had any issue.



I think I was running OpenVMS VAX V7.2 on SIMH. IIRC it was fixed in 
V7.3 (someone sent me the DECUS Hobbyist V7.3 release and that was OK).



Antonio


--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Sep 22, 2021, at 9:28 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Not true.  HP still owns it. VSI is licensed to continue development, nothing 
> more.  HPE no longer cares about VMS and the Hobbyist Program
> has ended.  VSI has a Hobbyist type program but it does not cover VAX.
> 
>> https://vmssoftware.com/ 
> 
> bill

Currently the Hobbyist Program covers Alpha and Itanium.  We’ve been told it 
will cover x86 at some point.  I for one can’t wait for x86, as I don’t really 
want to add an Itanium to run some of the newer software.

Zane

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Sep 22, 2021, at 5:21 AM, Philip Pemberton via cctalk 
 wrote:
> 
> Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help!
> 
> I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- a cross 
> compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. My goal is to 
> get the source code building and experiment with the compiler a bit.

Out of curiosity, what’s the VAX/VMS software you’re trying to run, and what 
version of VAX/VMS was it intended to run on?  Does it have any version 
requirements with the OS?

> Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how to 
> install or use it.
> 
> Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make it 
> possible to send files to it from my Linux box?

Are you simply looking for Web resources, or are you interested in books?  The 
v5.x System Managers Guide and Users Guide are probably two of my favorite 
books, even when running 8.x, I tend to reach for the v5.x System Managers 
Guide first.


> I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available.

SIMH is the best option.  Better emulators cost $$$’s.

> I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've filled 
> out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning while I wait.

That’s the problem, HP already sent out the last set of Hobbyist PAK’s.

Zane

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 9/22/21 8:44 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 14:21, Philip Pemberton via cctalk
 wrote:


I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available.


I like VMS but I can't claim much expertise, unfortunately.

I have sysadminned a few boxes, but never brought one up from scratch.

However I did experimentally bootstrap an instance in SIMH on Linux
and it worked fine. I didn't license it or do much but it worked.


I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've
filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning
while I wait.


HP no longer owns VMS, AFAIK. It is now owned by VSI, VMS Software Inc.


Not true.  HP still owns it. VSI is licensed to continue development, 
nothing more.  HPE no longer cares about VMS and the Hobbyist Program

has ended.  VSI has a Hobbyist type program but it does not cover VAX.



https://vmssoftware.com/



bill

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Sep 22, 2021, at 6:05 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk  
wrote:
> Might be faster to install on a speedy machine though (I've never tried on 
> any Pi but I doubt that any of them will match a Ryzen …)

I tend to use VM’s on my VMware cluster.  I’ve used an RPI 3b+, it was about 
1.6 VUPS, so better than my KA630 based systems.

> SIMH works really well. Well enough that if you give OpenVMS (VAX) a 
> sufficiently large disk (30GB should do), it will crash when trying to mount 
> it :-)

Interesting, I have 3 34GB drives in my cluster, and haven’t had any issue.

Zane

RE: Setting up a VMS system

[Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Philip
> Pemberton via cctalk
> Sent: 22 September 2021 13:22
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Setting up a VMS system
> 
> Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help!
> 
> I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- a cross
> compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. My goal is to
> get the source code building and experiment with the compiler a bit.
> 

OK Well I wonder if it needs a licence. That may be an issue...

> Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how to
> install or use it.
> 

You will find copies of OpenVMS and the documentation on vaxhaven.com. 
The commands are generally similar to Unix/DoS but it has many unique quirks.
It creates versions of files. So if you run the same copy command twice, you 
get two output files. 
Assuming non were there before these will have a ";1" and ";2" on the end.
I seem to remember the PURGE command cleans this up.
I would just google "openvms vax install simh" and see which one suits your 
style of working.
Lots of tutorials too.,
 
> Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make it
> possible to send files to it from my Linux box?
> 

Well if you are using SIMH you can probably use FTP. If the files are small 
enough you can also create an ISO and mount it on OPENVMS
This will be mounted as a "foreign" disk as VMS CDs are written using the VMS 
file format.

> I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available.
> 

I think its the best but there are many types of VAX,

https://9track.net/simh/

has many variants.

> I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've filled 
> out
> the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning while I wait.
> 

You won't get one from HP but there are work arounds.
HP has allowed us to share our files. Let me know of list if you need it.

> 
> Cheers
> Phil.

Dave

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

Find a working vms system and back up the drives to your
externally-attached drive (s) to clone them.  Migrate the cloned drives to
your system.  This is a simplified statement of what's really involved but
if you can get to a similar system to your dec whatever you have, I'd
attempt the clone process.  That is if you have/want to use real  vax/alpha
hardware.
Bill

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021, 9:05 AM Antonio Carlini via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 22/09/2021 13:21, Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote:
> > Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help!
> >
> > I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software --
> > a cross compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running.
> > My goal is to get the source code building and experiment with the
> > compiler a bit.
> >
> > Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how
> > to install or use it.
>
> One of the other replies supplies a "how to install from scratch in
> SIMH" link, so that would be a good starting point.
>
> Might be faster to install on a speedy machine though (I've never tried
> on any Pi but I doubt that any of them will match a Ryzen ...)
>
>
> > Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make
> > it possible to send files to it from my Linux box?
> >
> The easiest way to transfer that I can think of would be to set up
> TCP/IP on OpenVMS and then just FTP (or NFS if you you set that up).
>
> There is (or at least, was) a version of SAMBA for OpenVMS, so that's
> another way if you like Windows.
>
>
> > I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available.
>
> SIMH works really well. Well enough that if you give OpenVMS (VAX) a
> sufficiently large disk (30GB should do), it will crash when trying to
> mount it :-)
>
>
> >
> > I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've
> > filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning
> > while I wait.
> >
> You'll be a wizard before you stop waiting. Hobbyist PAKs are no longer
> available. I forget whether the existing PAKs run out at the end of 2021
> or 2022.
>
> VSI are not allowed to issue PAKs for VAX (I'm not sure whether they
> simply cannot do it or are not allowed to do it, but either way, they
> won't).
>
>
> Antonio
>
>
> --
> Antonio Carlini
> anto...@acarlini.com
>
>

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 22/09/2021 13:21, Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote:

Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help!

I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- 
a cross compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. 
My goal is to get the source code building and experiment with the 
compiler a bit.


Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how 
to install or use it.


One of the other replies supplies a "how to install from scratch in 
SIMH" link, so that would be a good starting point.


Might be faster to install on a speedy machine though (I've never tried 
on any Pi but I doubt that any of them will match a Ryzen ...)



Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make 
it possible to send files to it from my Linux box?


The easiest way to transfer that I can think of would be to set up 
TCP/IP on OpenVMS and then just FTP (or NFS if you you set that up).


There is (or at least, was) a version of SAMBA for OpenVMS, so that's 
another way if you like Windows.




I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available.


SIMH works really well. Well enough that if you give OpenVMS (VAX) a 
sufficiently large disk (30GB should do), it will crash when trying to 
mount it :-)





I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've 
filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning 
while I wait.


You'll be a wizard before you stop waiting. Hobbyist PAKs are no longer 
available. I forget whether the existing PAKs run out at the end of 2021 
or 2022.


VSI are not allowed to issue PAKs for VAX (I'm not sure whether they 
simply cannot do it or are not allowed to do it, but either way, they 
won't).



Antonio


--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Peter Hicks via cctalk]

Hi Phil

I'm not sure if it helps, but I documented installing OpenVMS on a
Raspberry Pi a while ago at
https://blog.poggs.com/2020/04/21/openvms-on-a-raspberry-pi/


Peter


On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 13:21, Philip Pemberton via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hopefully a few of the DEC/VMS fans here might be able to help!
>
> I'm on a bit of a quest. I've been given some old VAX/VMS software -- a
> cross compiler and some source code -- that I'd like to get running. My
> goal is to get the source code building and experiment with the compiler
> a bit.
>
> Problem is that I've never used VMS before, and don't have a clue how to
> install or use it.
>
> Can any point me to an idiot's guide to VMS, how to set it up and make
> it possible to send files to it from my Linux box?
>
> I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available.
>
> I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've
> filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning
> while I wait.
>
>
> Cheers
> Phil.
>

-- 


OpenTrainTimes Ltd. registered in England and Wales, company no. 
09504022.
Registered office: Suite 1-3, Hop Exchange, 24 Southwark Street, 
London SE1 1TY

Re: Setting up a VMS system

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Wed, 22 Sept 2021 at 14:21, Philip Pemberton via cctalk
 wrote:

> I'm thinking of using SIMH, unless there's a better emulator available.

I like VMS but I can't claim much expertise, unfortunately.

I have sysadminned a few boxes, but never brought one up from scratch.

However I did experimentally bootstrap an instance in SIMH on Linux
and it worked fine. I didn't license it or do much but it worked.

> I'm still waiting on a reply from HP with a hobbyist licence PAK (I've
> filled out the form), but I figure I can get started on the learning
> while I wait.

HP no longer owns VMS, AFAIK. It is now owned by VSI, VMS Software Inc.

https://vmssoftware.com/

-- 
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
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