Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Monday 24 October 2011, Xavier Cremaschi wrote: Did somebody try to use a 3D printer to see what can be done with this kind of device ? Could we use one to make a case ? It has been looked into. You should find the discussion in the list archives. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Did somebody try to use a 3D printer to see what can be done with this kind of device ? Could we use one to make a case ? Xavier. Le 15/11/2010 15:00, Atilla Filiz a écrit : About the case. Would GeeksphoneONE/Zeus case fit us? I know they have a sliding keyboards but maybe we can work something out. Even better, I would love to see a full keyboard on my Neo. On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 4:00 PM, W. B. Kranendonk wankelwan...@yahoo.com mailto:wankelwan...@yahoo.com wrote: --- On Sat, 11/13/10, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com mailto:h...@goldelico.com wrote: (one series of problems) We could solve that by adding a jump start resistor. Then, we soldered the OMAP3530 and Pop Memory chip and connected RS232: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00679.jpg It did identify itself as 40W on the RS232 (...) must fit into 64k SRAM built into the OMAP chip. So we are back to C64 times :) With this tool, we could identify that the (external) SDRAM (...) quite a long lead time. For the series version this will be very easy to fix. Un-be-lievable! Your updates read as detectives, I am looking forward to seeing the plot revolving and coming to a good end :-) Thanks again! Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Atilla Filiz Eindhoven University of Technology Embedded Systems, Master's Programme ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Hi Wolfgang, Am 18.10.2011 um 04:00 schrieb Wolfgang Spraul: Ranjit, hey, thanks for noticing :-) Happen to see the case of Milkymist one[1], it is a transparent material and would prefer GTA04 embedded in case like that, with full view of itsy bitsy circuits and chips, don't know how feasible is it. [1] http://milkymist.org/mmone.html That case was designed and manufactured by fantastic Raumfahrtagentur in Berlin http://raumfahrtagentur.org/ roh from Raumfahrtagentur used QCad for design and laser cutting, the original .dxf files are freely licensed and published https://github.com/milkymist/extras-m1/blob/master/cad/protocase_v8_laser.dxf QCad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qcad There are many details that still need improvement, mechanical work is labor intensive :-) Screws, spacers, feet, etc. In the later versions we used dichlormethane for gluing the buttons, the entire button design can probably be improved as well. thank you for pointing to these materials. Maybe someone can pick it up to make a new GTA case... Or someone living in Berlin can visit raumfahrtagentur and discuss these ideas. What I wonder is if acrylic materials are easily handled for rounded forms and snap-fits etc. And what the wall-thickness becomes. Maybe someone can find out... Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Friday 21 October 2011, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi Wolfgang, Am 18.10.2011 um 04:00 schrieb Wolfgang Spraul: Ranjit, hey, thanks for noticing :-) Happen to see the case of Milkymist one[1], it is a transparent material and would prefer GTA04 embedded in case like that, with full view of itsy bitsy circuits and chips, don't know how feasible is it. [1] http://milkymist.org/mmone.html That case was designed and manufactured by fantastic Raumfahrtagentur in Berlin http://raumfahrtagentur.org/ roh from Raumfahrtagentur used QCad for design and laser cutting, the original .dxf files are freely licensed and published https://github.com/milkymist/extras-m1/blob/master/cad/protocase_v8_laser .dxf QCad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qcad There are many details that still need improvement, mechanical work is labor intensive :-) Screws, spacers, feet, etc. In the later versions we used dichlormethane for gluing the buttons, the entire button design can probably be improved as well. thank you for pointing to these materials. Maybe someone can pick it up to make a new GTA case... Or someone living in Berlin can visit raumfahrtagentur and discuss these ideas. What I wonder is if acrylic materials are easily handled for rounded forms and snap-fits etc. And what the wall-thickness becomes. Acrylic is too brittle for snap fits, but you can laser cut other plastics that are suitable like ABS. You need to heat acrylic to bend into curves (IIRC someone used that method to make a moko handlebar mount). You can bend thin ABS sheet and hold it in place. As a general guide you don't want to cut details thinner than the sheet you're cutting as they tend to distort. There's a reasonable guide here: http://www.pololu.com/docs/0J24/4 Maybe someone can find out... Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Happen to see the case of Milkymist one[1], it is a transparent material and would prefer GTA04 embedded in case like that, with full view of itsy bitsy circuits and chips, don't know how feasible is it. [1] http://milkymist.org/mmone.html On 11/15/10, Atilla Filiz atilla.fi...@gmail.com wrote: About the case. Would GeeksphoneONE/Zeus case fit us? I know they have a sliding keyboards but maybe we can work something out. Even better, I would love to see a full keyboard on my Neo. On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 4:00 PM, W. B. Kranendonk wankelwan...@yahoo.comwrote: --- On Sat, 11/13/10, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: (one series of problems) We could solve that by adding a jump start resistor. Then, we soldered the OMAP3530 and Pop Memory chip and connected RS232: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00679.jpg It did identify itself as 40W on the RS232 (...) must fit into 64k SRAM built into the OMAP chip. So we are back to C64 times :) With this tool, we could identify that the (external) SDRAM (...) quite a long lead time. For the series version this will be very easy to fix. Un-be-lievable! Your updates read as detectives, I am looking forward to seeing the plot revolving and coming to a good end :-) Thanks again! Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Atilla Filiz Eindhoven University of Technology Embedded Systems, Master's Programme -- Ranjit Pillai gnumen.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Ranjit, hey, thanks for noticing :-) Happen to see the case of Milkymist one[1], it is a transparent material and would prefer GTA04 embedded in case like that, with full view of itsy bitsy circuits and chips, don't know how feasible is it. [1] http://milkymist.org/mmone.html That case was designed and manufactured by fantastic Raumfahrtagentur in Berlin http://raumfahrtagentur.org/ roh from Raumfahrtagentur used QCad for design and laser cutting, the original .dxf files are freely licensed and published https://github.com/milkymist/extras-m1/blob/master/cad/protocase_v8_laser.dxf QCad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qcad There are many details that still need improvement, mechanical work is labor intensive :-) Screws, spacers, feet, etc. In the later versions we used dichlormethane for gluing the buttons, the entire button design can probably be improved as well. Werner just milled some out of wood http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/m1butwood.jpg We made a wood version of the Milkymist One case earlier, but wood bends over time, if we really wanted to use wood we would need to find out more about that. http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/4/42/Milkymist_One_wood_case.jpg The Milkymist logo is engraved into the inside of the top acrylic, it looks nice but as always there is room for improvement there as well. https://github.com/milkymist/extras-m1/blob/master/cad/milkymist_logo_engrave_v1.dxf http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/d/d3/Milkymist_engraved_logo_shot.jpg Bottom line: We learnt a lot, made a beautiful and functional acrylic case (often used for architecture models as well, btw). Many details can and will be improved, the process is all open and uses free tools. Kristian Paul used the same files to make his own Milkymist One case in Bogota, Colombia. In the future we may also investigate milling or lasering aluminum, maybe starting with the same .dxf design files we have right now... If anybody has questions about a mechanical design and manufacturing process using free tools, don't hesitate to join the Qi list at http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion or the #qi-hardware IRC channel on Freenode, webchat http://en.qi-hardware.com/webchat Last but not least - Milkymist One sells for 499 USD plus shipping at https://sharism.cc/milkymist About 40 of 80 run3 units have already sold in the last 3 weeks :-) By buying one you support the entire free supply chain, including Raumfahrtagentur in Berlin. Cheers, Wolfgang ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
About the case. Would GeeksphoneONE/Zeus case fit us? I know they have a sliding keyboards but maybe we can work something out. Even better, I would love to see a full keyboard on my Neo. On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 4:00 PM, W. B. Kranendonk wankelwan...@yahoo.comwrote: --- On Sat, 11/13/10, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: (one series of problems) We could solve that by adding a jump start resistor. Then, we soldered the OMAP3530 and Pop Memory chip and connected RS232: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00679.jpg It did identify itself as 40W on the RS232 (...) must fit into 64k SRAM built into the OMAP chip. So we are back to C64 times :) With this tool, we could identify that the (external) SDRAM (...) quite a long lead time. For the series version this will be very easy to fix. Un-be-lievable! Your updates read as detectives, I am looking forward to seeing the plot revolving and coming to a good end :-) Thanks again! Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Atilla Filiz Eindhoven University of Technology Embedded Systems, Master's Programme ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
--- On Sat, 11/13/10, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: (one series of problems) We could solve that by adding a jump start resistor. Then, we soldered the OMAP3530 and Pop Memory chip and connected RS232: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00679.jpg It did identify itself as 40W on the RS232 (...) must fit into 64k SRAM built into the OMAP chip. So we are back to C64 times :) With this tool, we could identify that the (external) SDRAM (...) quite a long lead time. For the series version this will be very easy to fix. Un-be-lievable! Your updates read as detectives, I am looking forward to seeing the plot revolving and coming to a good end :-) Thanks again! Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Hi Nikolaus, The story reads like a novel, with another cliffhanger every time:-) Keep up the good work! Kind regards, Ed On Sat, 2010-11-13 at 08:50 +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi all, time for another update. Am 06.11.2010 um 12:35 schrieb Sylvain Paré: Thanks for the news Yesterday I received the second board where we did populate the TPS65950 (power controller). The results of measurements are: * the 32 kHz RTC clock is operating * when inserting a battery, most voltages are available as expected Bad news: * we have a short circuit on the 1V8 rail I have spent most of the night and this morning to track this down. It appears to be a solder short circuit under the TPS chip (a 0.4 mm pitch BGA). So I am currently sitting at our SMD rework company and looking over the shoulder of the CTO who has a lot of experience. Unfortunately I can't make photos. We already have unsoldered the TPS chip (that needs a really sophisticated machine) and the short has disappeared. The next step is to solder it back again and do the next tests. If that works, i.e. we get all voltages from the power controller, the 26 MHz oscillator should also start working. If that is ok, the OMAP and the POP memory will be soldered. Maybe we manage to get it today. Then, we can see if the CPU is doing something. Current status: the 1.8V is now working but the VDD2 (1.2 V) not. The TPS chip aborts the power up sequence early. We could solve that by adding a jump start resistor. Rene will upload some photos of the board and we will post a link. Here: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00671.jpg http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00672.jpg Then, we soldered the OMAP3530 and Pop Memory chip and connected RS232: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00679.jpg It did identify itself as 40W on the RS232 but did not boot beyond that. Fortunately the OMAP has a ROM bootloader (which generates the 40W sequence) and we could use it to download a special second stage boot-loader that has a simple commandline console on RS232. Note that it must fit into 64k SRAM built into the OMAP chip. So we are back to C64 times :) With this tool, we could identify that the (external) SDRAM has a stuck-at-1 error on a single bit-line. So we expected another soldering issue and had the OMAP+Pop replaced on Monday. But the error pattern remained the same! Unexpectedly, we were able to put the board into a 3D X-Ray machine on Tuesday (during Electronica Fair). Here are machine results: http://www.yxlon.com/y.Cheetah http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/2009%20Xray/ Fortunately it is *not* a soldering issue. And likely not a PCB production issue. Yesterday late at night we found the problem. It is a bad BGA ball assignment in our component library. VDDS_MEM (1.8V) is assigned to B17 instead of B18. And, B17 is data line 14 of the SDRAM and should have been left NC. Therefore we have tied one data line to a high-level... I think we can fix that for our samples but it needs some time and we run out of components for the samples. Especially memory chips have quite a long lead time. For the series version this will be very easy to fix. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 13.11.2010 um 09:23 schrieb Ed Kapitein: Hi Nikolaus, The story reads like a novel, with another cliffhanger every time:-) Well, what else can be the destiny of a Freerunner :-) Keep up the good work! Thanks, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Nikolaus, if you need a XRAY machine again, I could probably help you; I work for a company which produces those XRay inspection machines. A. On Sat, 13 Nov 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi all, time for another update. Am 06.11.2010 um 12:35 schrieb Sylvain Paré: Thanks for the news Yesterday I received the second board where we did populate the TPS65950 (power controller). The results of measurements are: * the 32 kHz RTC clock is operating * when inserting a battery, most voltages are available as expected Bad news: * we have a short circuit on the 1V8 rail I have spent most of the night and this morning to track this down. It appears to be a solder short circuit under the TPS chip (a 0.4 mm pitch BGA). So I am currently sitting at our SMD rework company and looking over the shoulder of the CTO who has a lot of experience. Unfortunately I can't make photos. We already have unsoldered the TPS chip (that needs a really sophisticated machine) and the short has disappeared. The next step is to solder it back again and do the next tests. If that works, i.e. we get all voltages from the power controller, the 26 MHz oscillator should also start working. If that is ok, the OMAP and the POP memory will be soldered. Maybe we manage to get it today. Then, we can see if the CPU is doing something. Current status: the 1.8V is now working but the VDD2 (1.2 V) not. The TPS chip aborts the power up sequence early. We could solve that by adding a jump start resistor. Rene will upload some photos of the board and we will post a link. Here: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00671.jpg http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00672.jpg Then, we soldered the OMAP3530 and Pop Memory chip and connected RS232: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00679.jpg It did identify itself as 40W on the RS232 but did not boot beyond that. Fortunately the OMAP has a ROM bootloader (which generates the 40W sequence) and we could use it to download a special second stage boot-loader that has a simple commandline console on RS232. Note that it must fit into 64k SRAM built into the OMAP chip. So we are back to C64 times :) With this tool, we could identify that the (external) SDRAM has a stuck-at-1 error on a single bit-line. So we expected another soldering issue and had the OMAP+Pop replaced on Monday. But the error pattern remained the same! Unexpectedly, we were able to put the board into a 3D X-Ray machine on Tuesday (during Electronica Fair). Here are machine results: http://www.yxlon.com/y.Cheetah http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/2009%20Xray/ Fortunately it is *not* a soldering issue. And likely not a PCB production issue. Yesterday late at night we found the problem. It is a bad BGA ball assignment in our component library. VDDS_MEM (1.8V) is assigned to B17 instead of B18. And, B17 is data line 14 of the SDRAM and should have been left NC. Therefore we have tied one data line to a high-level... I think we can fix that for our samples but it needs some time and we run out of components for the samples. Especially memory chips have quite a long lead time. For the series version this will be very easy to fix. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 13.11.2010 um 12:15 schrieb Alexander Lehner: Nikolaus, if you need a XRAY machine again, I could probably help you; I work for a company which produces those XRay inspection machines. A. That is great to know! Although I hope we don't need it again :---) Have a nice weekend, Nikolaus On Sat, 13 Nov 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Hi all, time for another update. Am 06.11.2010 um 12:35 schrieb Sylvain Paré: Thanks for the news Yesterday I received the second board where we did populate the TPS65950 (power controller). The results of measurements are: * the 32 kHz RTC clock is operating * when inserting a battery, most voltages are available as expected Bad news: * we have a short circuit on the 1V8 rail I have spent most of the night and this morning to track this down. It appears to be a solder short circuit under the TPS chip (a 0.4 mm pitch BGA). So I am currently sitting at our SMD rework company and looking over the shoulder of the CTO who has a lot of experience. Unfortunately I can't make photos. We already have unsoldered the TPS chip (that needs a really sophisticated machine) and the short has disappeared. The next step is to solder it back again and do the next tests. If that works, i.e. we get all voltages from the power controller, the 26 MHz oscillator should also start working. If that is ok, the OMAP and the POP memory will be soldered. Maybe we manage to get it today. Then, we can see if the CPU is doing something. Current status: the 1.8V is now working but the VDD2 (1.2 V) not. The TPS chip aborts the power up sequence early. We could solve that by adding a jump start resistor. Rene will upload some photos of the board and we will post a link. Here: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00671.jpg http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00672.jpg Then, we soldered the OMAP3530 and Pop Memory chip and connected RS232: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00679.jpg It did identify itself as 40W on the RS232 but did not boot beyond that. Fortunately the OMAP has a ROM bootloader (which generates the 40W sequence) and we could use it to download a special second stage boot-loader that has a simple commandline console on RS232. Note that it must fit into 64k SRAM built into the OMAP chip. So we are back to C64 times :) With this tool, we could identify that the (external) SDRAM has a stuck-at-1 error on a single bit-line. So we expected another soldering issue and had the OMAP+Pop replaced on Monday. But the error pattern remained the same! Unexpectedly, we were able to put the board into a 3D X-Ray machine on Tuesday (during Electronica Fair). Here are machine results: http://www.yxlon.com/y.Cheetah http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/2009%20Xray/ Fortunately it is *not* a soldering issue. And likely not a PCB production issue. Yesterday late at night we found the problem. It is a bad BGA ball assignment in our component library. VDDS_MEM (1.8V) is assigned to B17 instead of B18. And, B17 is data line 14 of the SDRAM and should have been left NC. Therefore we have tied one data line to a high-level... I think we can fix that for our samples but it needs some time and we run out of components for the samples. Especially memory chips have quite a long lead time. For the series version this will be very easy to fix. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Hi, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com writes: time for another update. ... Current status: the 1.8V is now working but the VDD2 (1.2 V) not. The TPS chip aborts the power up sequence early. We could solve that by adding a jump start resistor. ... Nikolaus, this project is a very interesting effort and i am glad to read you're steadily moving towards getting a modern and functional device as free as freerunner. This news are fairly encouraging, there was nothing like that on the community mailing list for quite a while. There is this one thing that bothers me though: i would be rather glad to see Joerg Reisenweber[1], one of the most clueful and insightful HW guys from the OpenMoko fame in your team; to me it looks like his experience could really help to not only kickstart your endeavor but to also cope with all those hurdles along the way. Sincerely wishing you best of luck and happy hacking. [1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:JOERG -- Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software! mailto:fercer...@gmail.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Wednesday 27 October 2010 10:15:45 Radek Polak wrote: Another idea - i wonder if i could make the case of wood. That would be very environment friendly and wood is also good material. But that's just idea. It seems someone was faster ;-) http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/08/sharp-touch-wood-concept-turns-real-with- limited-run-of-15-000-h/ http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/08/sharp-touch-wood-concept-turns-real-with- limited-run-of-15-000-h/ Regards Radek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Hi all, time for another update. Am 06.11.2010 um 12:35 schrieb Sylvain Paré: Thanks for the news Yesterday I received the second board where we did populate the TPS65950 (power controller). The results of measurements are: * the 32 kHz RTC clock is operating * when inserting a battery, most voltages are available as expected Bad news: * we have a short circuit on the 1V8 rail I have spent most of the night and this morning to track this down. It appears to be a solder short circuit under the TPS chip (a 0.4 mm pitch BGA). So I am currently sitting at our SMD rework company and looking over the shoulder of the CTO who has a lot of experience. Unfortunately I can't make photos. We already have unsoldered the TPS chip (that needs a really sophisticated machine) and the short has disappeared. The next step is to solder it back again and do the next tests. If that works, i.e. we get all voltages from the power controller, the 26 MHz oscillator should also start working. If that is ok, the OMAP and the POP memory will be soldered. Maybe we manage to get it today. Then, we can see if the CPU is doing something. Current status: the 1.8V is now working but the VDD2 (1.2 V) not. The TPS chip aborts the power up sequence early. We could solve that by adding a jump start resistor. Rene will upload some photos of the board and we will post a link. Here: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00671.jpg http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00672.jpg Then, we soldered the OMAP3530 and Pop Memory chip and connected RS232: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00679.jpg It did identify itself as 40W on the RS232 but did not boot beyond that. Fortunately the OMAP has a ROM bootloader (which generates the 40W sequence) and we could use it to download a special second stage boot-loader that has a simple commandline console on RS232. Note that it must fit into 64k SRAM built into the OMAP chip. So we are back to C64 times :) With this tool, we could identify that the (external) SDRAM has a stuck-at-1 error on a single bit-line. So we expected another soldering issue and had the OMAP+Pop replaced on Monday. But the error pattern remained the same! Unexpectedly, we were able to put the board into a 3D X-Ray machine on Tuesday (during Electronica Fair). Here are machine results: http://www.yxlon.com/y.Cheetah http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/2009%20Xray/ Fortunately it is *not* a soldering issue. And likely not a PCB production issue. Yesterday late at night we found the problem. It is a bad BGA ball assignment in our component library. VDDS_MEM (1.8V) is assigned to B17 instead of B18. And, B17 is data line 14 of the SDRAM and should have been left NC. Therefore we have tied one data line to a high-level... I think we can fix that for our samples but it needs some time and we run out of components for the samples. Especially memory chips have quite a long lead time. For the series version this will be very easy to fix. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Thanks for the news 2010/11/5 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com Am 05.11.2010 um 12:39 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: Am 21.10.2010 um 07:36 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: Am 20.10.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Patryk Benderz: [cut] I will keep you updated. Nikolaus Thanks for sharing this, do you have some photos of this board? Looking Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00627.jpg http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00628.jpg The next version of the board layout will add two Hirose DF40 board-to-board connectors on the display side so that the GTA04 can be mounted on a expansion board (e.g. for a different/larger display). A populated board will finally look similar to this one: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg forward to hear more! :) As soon as we have something to share... Ok, here is some good and bad news... Good news: last week I got a board where some of the basic power control chips are populated (except the TPS65950 BGA). Mainly, the backlight converter is operating. This one works and after connecting a LCD module, we could operate it as a lamp :) Yesterday I received the second board where we did populate the TPS65950 (power controller). The results of measurements are: * the 32 kHz RTC clock is operating * when inserting a battery, most voltages are available as expected Bad news: * we have a short circuit on the 1V8 rail I have spent most of the night and this morning to track this down. It appears to be a solder short circuit under the TPS chip (a 0.4 mm pitch BGA). So I am currently sitting at our SMD rework company and looking over the shoulder of the CTO who has a lot of experience. Unfortunately I can't make photos. We already have unsoldered the TPS chip (that needs a really sophisticated machine) and the short has disappeared. The next step is to solder it back again and do the next tests. If that works, i.e. we get all voltages from the power controller, the 26 MHz oscillator should also start working. If that is ok, the OMAP and the POP memory will be soldered. Maybe we manage to get it today. Then, we can see if the CPU is doing something. Current status: the 1.8V is now working but the VDD2 (1.2 V) not. The TPS chip aborts the power up sequence early. Rene will upload some photos of the board and we will post a link. Here: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00671.jpg http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00672.jpg Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 21.10.2010 um 07:36 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: Am 20.10.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Patryk Benderz: [cut] I will keep you updated. Nikolaus Thanks for sharing this, do you have some photos of this board? Looking Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00627.jpg http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00628.jpg The next version of the board layout will add two Hirose DF40 board-to-board connectors on the display side so that the GTA04 can be mounted on a expansion board (e.g. for a different/larger display). A populated board will finally look similar to this one: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg forward to hear more! :) As soon as we have something to share... Ok, here is some good and bad news... Good news: last week I got a board where some of the basic power control chips are populated (except the TPS65950 BGA). Mainly, the backlight converter is operating. This one works and after connecting a LCD module, we could operate it as a lamp :) Yesterday I received the second board where we did populate the TPS65950 (power controller). The results of measurements are: * the 32 kHz RTC clock is operating * when inserting a battery, most voltages are available as expected Bad news: * we have a short circuit on the 1V8 rail I have spent most of the night and this morning to track this down. It appears to be a solder short circuit under the TPS chip (a 0.4 mm pitch BGA). So I am currently sitting at our SMD rework company and looking over the shoulder of the CTO who has a lot of experience. Unfortunately I can't make photos. We already have unsoldered the TPS chip (that needs a really sophisticated machine) and the short has disappeared. The next step is to solder it back again and do the next tests. If that works, i.e. we get all voltages from the power controller, the 26 MHz oscillator should also start working. If that is ok, the OMAP and the POP memory will be soldered. Maybe we manage to get it today. Then, we can see if the CPU is doing something. Rene will upload some photos of the board and we will post a link. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 05.11.2010 um 12:39 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: Am 21.10.2010 um 07:36 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: Am 20.10.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Patryk Benderz: [cut] I will keep you updated. Nikolaus Thanks for sharing this, do you have some photos of this board? Looking Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00627.jpg http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00628.jpg The next version of the board layout will add two Hirose DF40 board-to-board connectors on the display side so that the GTA04 can be mounted on a expansion board (e.g. for a different/larger display). A populated board will finally look similar to this one: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg forward to hear more! :) As soon as we have something to share... Ok, here is some good and bad news... Good news: last week I got a board where some of the basic power control chips are populated (except the TPS65950 BGA). Mainly, the backlight converter is operating. This one works and after connecting a LCD module, we could operate it as a lamp :) Yesterday I received the second board where we did populate the TPS65950 (power controller). The results of measurements are: * the 32 kHz RTC clock is operating * when inserting a battery, most voltages are available as expected Bad news: * we have a short circuit on the 1V8 rail I have spent most of the night and this morning to track this down. It appears to be a solder short circuit under the TPS chip (a 0.4 mm pitch BGA). So I am currently sitting at our SMD rework company and looking over the shoulder of the CTO who has a lot of experience. Unfortunately I can't make photos. We already have unsoldered the TPS chip (that needs a really sophisticated machine) and the short has disappeared. The next step is to solder it back again and do the next tests. If that works, i.e. we get all voltages from the power controller, the 26 MHz oscillator should also start working. If that is ok, the OMAP and the POP memory will be soldered. Maybe we manage to get it today. Then, we can see if the CPU is doing something. Current status: the 1.8V is now working but the VDD2 (1.2 V) not. The TPS chip aborts the power up sequence early. Rene will upload some photos of the board and we will post a link. Here: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00671.jpg http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00672.jpg Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Sean has given us a very important learning: we should use catalog components (e.g. DigiKey, Farnell, Mouser, RS-Components) as good as possible. Unfortunately they don't have a smartphone case. Maybe you can find one here: http://www.gizmoforyou.net/site/shop/gizmos/computing/flow/flow-g1-5.html Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Tuesday 26 October 2010 17:50:43 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Suddenly it became obvious... There is an open phone where approx. 18000 cases have been sold. It is called Neo Freerunner (and 3000 thereof are Neo 1973). So there are nice cases out there. Well, they lack some features, but other cases aren't perfect either. So why get a different one, when most of us already have one :) Agree, i am more interested in the board now than the case. Until all the software is working the case is not problem for me. When it starts working as a phone i will not need my freerunner case anymore, since i dont plan to carry 2 phones with me. I think your strategy is good. Another idea - i wonder if i could make the case of wood. That would be very environment friendly and wood is also good material. But that's just idea. I was thinking about buying N900 since it's very cheap now, but this project looks much better and i am looking forward to start some hacking on it :) Regards Radek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Wednesday 27 October 2010, Radek Polak wrote: Another idea - i wonder if i could make the case of wood. That would be very environment friendly and wood is also good material. But that's just idea. Laser cutting works with wood, though you do get slightly charred edges. Milling works well with a lot of hardwoods. There might be some design features that depend on material properties, so you might need some modifications for a wood case, but it's certainly worth a try. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 27.10.2010 um 11:18 schrieb Al Johnson: On Wednesday 27 October 2010, Radek Polak wrote: Another idea - i wonder if i could make the case of wood. That would be very environment friendly and wood is also good material. But that's just idea. Laser cutting works with wood, though you do get slightly charred edges. Milling works well with a lot of hardwoods. There might be some design features that depend on material properties, so you might need some modifications for a wood case, but it's certainly worth a try. We should find someone who is making wooden musical instruments (woodwinds and strings). They should know which type of tree is the best one for fine and precise structures and how to cut and glue it. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
2010/10/27 Radek Polak pson...@seznam.cz Another idea - i wonder if i could make the case of wood. That would be very environment friendly and wood is also good material. But that's just idea. I often thought about this, and i think its a very nice idea. It would give a nice feeling in the hand, i think. Maybe especially for people with sweaty hands, like me. But you have to rethink a whole lot. I think wood can be bended like plastics, but its not as elastic as plastic, it will wear off faster. You cannot make a clip mounting for the back cover, like it is now. Cheers, Fabian ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Hello, Attempting resend of failed message after subscribing to list... Rgds Eric On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 11:33 PM, eric ehlers wrote: Hello, Was just pointed to this project by a colleague after complaining about the hassles of rooting and jailbreaking my smartphone... Let me ask two questions to everybody: * How long could you be willing to wait for it to really become available? Until the demise of the A7++ that I will order as soon as they are back in stock... * How much would you think you could afford to pay for such a board? Others have talked about a price of EUR 500 and I would be happy to part with that amount for a next gen open smart phone. Personally, I am in favour of high-end high-quality design (like the iPhone) even if it costs money. +1. Regards, Eric ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
[cut] for the light of our leds we could make grids and holes... or we could also do an all transparent case (I'd love to see trough to view the electronic inside) Like this idea :) -- Patryk LeadMan Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
[cut] To say more of the price, it is necessary to have the design available. This question you asked Boudewijn, is very important. Nikolaus, do you have some design available for preview? If so, I could also make a research in Poland, how much would it cost? -- Patryk LeadMan Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
[cut] Our results so far (I can't share all of them): STL + Silicone moulds: 2000 EUR setup + 50 EUR each every 100 units Injection Moulds: 25000 EUR setup + 20 EUR per unit 3D-Printing: no setup, 400 EUR every unit (quality doubtful) Milling from ABS block: no setup, 500 EUR every unit So 1-10 units does not come below 250 EUR. 100 units may come to 70 EUR. 1000 units to 45 EUR. 10k to 22.50 EUR. You see the volume effect and clear preference of injection moulds. Which also give best quality... Could you estimate how many units do you want to produce? [cut] -- Patryk LeadMan Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 26.10.2010 um 10:58 schrieb Patryk Benderz: [cut] To say more of the price, it is necessary to have the design available. This question you asked Boudewijn, is very important. Nikolaus, do you have some design available for preview? If so, I could also make a research in Poland, how much would it cost? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CAD_models This is what I use for asking for quotes (the Neo 1973 case separated into the important parts): http://download.goldelico.com/ombeagle/images/Neo1973.step.zip BTW: I just come back from another plastics manufacturing company. They can produce a case by milling and glueing plastic plates. It would come to approx. 50 EUR. But is much larger (wall thickness 10 mm, slice thickness 3mm) and needs modifications to the whole construction. Personaly I would dislike this as a Smartphone (compared to a Nokia/Palm/HTC/Apple/Samsung) and we won't get many friends... And I discussed with them about laser cutting. Their opinion: can be used only for engraving into acrylic parts and cutting a general shape. But not for fine grained cuts. The laser burns the plastics until the color changes. He mentioned another method for injection moulds: using aluminium for vaccum injection moulds. They are not that expensive as real steel high-pressure moulds. But you can make only 50-100 parts before the mould must be replaced. Steel moulds cost multiples of 1 EUR but can be used for up to 100k units. Could you estimate how many units do you want to produce? Well, that depends on the price and we are back in the Hysteron Proteron. So let's ask to all here on this list: How many new cases would you and your friends buy if it costs: * 20 EUR * 50 EUR * 100 EUR * 200 EUR BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
--- On Tue, 10/26/10, Alfa21 freerun...@my.is.it wrote: mmh... why not include the button(s) in the same mould? it could be a shape like a C= attached to the main shape by a little plastic That's what he (Nicolaus) wrote: Yes. Some parts could be combined in a single mould and then broken apart. Like in toys where you do it yourself. But this does not reduce mould construction cost. for the light of our leds we could make grids and holes... Grids and holes attract dust of course, and a transparent shield on top of a led is one more shape to produce :-( or we could also do an all transparent case (I'd love to see trough to view the electronic inside) I'm not so into plastics, how is the choice of transparent plastics? Thinking of transparent via glass to (capacitive touch)screens... Front and back same size touch screen and in between just enough plastic to cover all the electronics does not guarantee design, does it? And for the buttons; capacitive is an option (although... we have them on our washing machine and my wife has to do the washing: the buttons do not react to my fingers :-( ) but there are those strain sensors used in electronic balances that measure tension and compression in a material. Would they be usable to imply buttons by squeezing the phone or applying torque to it? Best regards, Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On 26.10.2010 12:14, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: How many new cases would you and your friends buy if it costs: * 20 EUR * 50 EUR * 100 EUR * 200 EUR Well... since a case only makes sense with a phone in it, I guess the question comes down to How much would you pay in addition to the pure board in order to get a full phone?, right? Depending on the total price of the GTA04, I would be quite interested in one unit (replacing my current FreeRunner). 20 Euros is a no-brainer from my perspective - considering that otherwise I would have to fiddle with the installation myself, or send in my current FreeRunner. I'm not quite comfortable with the first option, and the second might cost more than 20 Euros and will leave me without a phone for some time. 50 Euros still sound ok to me. Anything above 100 Euros seems to be a bit steep for me. Regards, Andreas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
--- On Tue, 10/26/10, Andreas Fischer cyberf...@gmx.net wrote: On 26.10.2010 12:14, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: How many new cases would you and your friends buy if it costs: * 20 EUR * 50 EUR * 100 EUR * 200 EUR (...) 20 Euros is a no-brainer (...) 50 Euros still sound ok to me. Anything above 100 Euros seems to be a bit steep for me. I agree on the 20 and 50 euro options, when talking just about the case. When talking about (fictive) 350E for a complete phone, that seems OK if you don't know that it's 150 for electronics and 200 for the case. Over 100E might be steep for only the case, but combined with the foundation idea Nikolaus launched it might get interesting: * 20 E * 50 E * 100 E and one share in the Opencase foundation * 200 E and two shares in the Opencase foundation or a similar scheme. In case (no pun intended) we use a production method that scales well, the average case price will lower over time and after a break even the foundation could pay the shareholders. Probably gives loads of headaches in administration, but could be an option :-) Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On 10/26/2010 03:17 PM, W. B. Kranendonk wrote: --- On Tue, 10/26/10, Andreas Fischer cyberf...@gmx.net wrote: On 26.10.2010 12:14, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: How many new cases would you and your friends buy if it costs: * 20 EUR * 50 EUR * 100 EUR * 200 EUR (...) 20 Euros is a no-brainer (...) 50 Euros still sound ok to me. Anything above 100 Euros seems to be a bit steep for me. I agree on the 20 and 50 euro options, when talking just about the case. When talking about (fictive) 350E for a complete phone, that seems OK if you don't know that it's 150 for electronics and 200 for the case. Over 100E might be steep for only the case, but combined with the foundation idea Nikolaus launched it might get interesting: * 20 E * 50 E * 100 E and one share in the Opencase foundation * 200 E and two shares in the Opencase foundation or a similar scheme. In case (no pun intended) we use a production method that scales well, the average case price will lower over time and after a break even the foundation could pay the shareholders. Probably gives loads of headaches in administration, but could be an option :-) Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Hi All, Since it seems so hard to have a custom made case, why not use an existing case for a HTC, nokia, iphone or the like? (or a chinese replica) The layout of the PCB needs to be alltered ofcourse, but it seems that it might be an easier thing to do. Just my 2 cents. Kind regards, @ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Since it seems so hard to have a custom made case, why not use an existing case for a HTC, nokia, iphone or the like? (or a chinese replica) The layout of the PCB needs to be alltered ofcourse, but it seems that it might be an easier thing to do. Then, however you have the same problem as with reusing the Freerunner's case: You need to use the same display as used for the parent' device. If you want a custom display you will have to create a new case, too. -- n...@el-hennig.de Lubarsky's Law of Cybernetic Entomology: There's always one more bug. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 26.10.2010 um 16:52 schrieb Ed Kapitein: On 10/26/2010 03:17 PM, W. B. Kranendonk wrote: --- On Tue, 10/26/10, Andreas Fischer cyberf...@gmx.net wrote: On 26.10.2010 12:14, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: How many new cases would you and your friends buy if it costs: * 20 EUR * 50 EUR * 100 EUR * 200 EUR (...) 20 Euros is a no-brainer (...) 50 Euros still sound ok to me. Anything above 100 Euros seems to be a bit steep for me. I agree on the 20 and 50 euro options, when talking just about the case. When talking about (fictive) 350E for a complete phone, that seems OK if you don't know that it's 150 for electronics and 200 for the case. Over 100E might be steep for only the case, but combined with the foundation idea Nikolaus launched it might get interesting: * 20 E * 50 E * 100 E and one share in the Opencase foundation * 200 E and two shares in the Opencase foundation or a similar scheme. In case (no pun intended) we use a production method that scales well, the average case price will lower over time and after a break even the foundation could pay the shareholders. Probably gives loads of headaches in administration, but could be an option :-) Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Hi All, Since it seems so hard to have a custom made case, why not use an existing case for a HTC, nokia, iphone or the like? (or a chinese replica) The layout of the PCB needs to be alltered ofcourse, but it seems that it might be an easier thing to do. Just my 2 cents. Interesting idea to think about. For me, this raises some questions. The first is: which one should we take? There are many candidates... Second one: do we want to become dependent on the availability of such products and/or spare parts? We need a source for pure spare parts where none of the *big five* can make our life even more difficult. Finally, it might become quite tricky to design a new PCB that fits into their cases because they use even more special tools and components than the Openmoko design does. If you look inside such a device they sometimes e.g. have multiple PCBs interconnected by Flex PCBs. Or they have custom designed connectors, buttons, springs, screws etc. Which is no problem if they produce 1 million units per month. Sean has given us a very important learning: we should use catalog components (e.g. DigiKey, Farnell, Mouser, RS-Components) as good as possible. Unfortunately they don't have a smartphone case. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
[cut] Since it seems so hard to have a custom made case, why not use an existing case for a HTC, nokia, iphone or the like? (or a chinese replica) The layout of the PCB needs to be alltered ofcourse, but it seems that it might be an easier thing to do. Just my 2 cents. Do you have someone in china to know if this option would be have better quality/price ratio? P.S.please cut posts -- Patryk LeadMan Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
--- On Tue, 10/26/10, Ed Kapitein e...@kapitein.org wrote: Since it seems so hard to have a custom made case, why not use an existing case for a HTC, nokia, iphone or the like? (or a chinese replica) The layout of the PCB needs to be alltered ofcourse, but it seems that it might be an easier thing to do. It depends on the model, I think. I was looking for a new case (with the paint still on) for a Motorola A780, but they still cost $80 (which is quite steep for having the paint back...) I never looked for other cases; would there be any trademark/copyright issues? Perhaps we should look for the case of an open phone, like.. ehr... yes, like which phone ;-) Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
[cut] The first is: which one should we take? There are many candidates... Did you looked for Universal mobile phone casing - maybe this would fit in? I am pretty sure, once upon time I found something like this, produced by Chinese manufacturers. [cut] Finally, it might become quite tricky to design a new PCB that fits into their cases because they use even more special tools and components than the Openmoko design does. If you look inside such a device they sometimes e.g. have multiple PCBs interconnected by Flex PCBs. Or they have custom designed connectors, buttons, springs, screws etc. Which is no problem if they produce 1 million units per month. Sean has given us a very important learning: we should use catalog components (e.g. DigiKey, Farnell, Mouser, RS-Components) as good as possible. Unfortunately they don't have a smartphone case. But they have conector and Flex and so on, right? -- Patryk LeadMan Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On 10/26/2010 05:05 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: SNIP Hi All, Since it seems so hard to have a custom made case, why not use an existing case for a HTC, nokia, iphone or the like? (or a chinese replica) The layout of the PCB needs to be alltered ofcourse, but it seems that it might be an easier thing to do. Just my 2 cents. Interesting idea to think about. For me, this raises some questions. The first is: which one should we take? There are many candidates... Second one: do we want to become dependent on the availability of such products and/or spare parts? We need a source for pure spare parts where none of the *big five* can make our life even more difficult. Finally, it might become quite tricky to design a new PCB that fits into their cases because they use even more special tools and components than the Openmoko design does. If you look inside such a device they sometimes e.g. have multiple PCBs interconnected by Flex PCBs. Or they have custom designed connectors, buttons, springs, screws etc. Which is no problem if they produce 1 million units per month. Sean has given us a very important learning: we should use catalog components (e.g. DigiKey, Farnell, Mouser, RS-Components) as good as possible. Unfortunately they don't have a smartphone case. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Hi Nikolaus , I think all your points are valid, it would be just a start to get the phone out to the public And perhpaps a part of the price could be used to get the parts/equipment to make a custom case. I took a look at my old htc magican and the screen dimensions are the same as the FR. The photo button is almost at the same location as the AUX button. The power button is somewhere else though. a cover cost aprox 22 dollar at [1] and perhpas less if you order a 100 or so. It wouldn't be a perfect sollution, but it might be a step on the road. [1] http://www.globalwholesalebusiness.com/index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=1products_id=4144 Kind regards, Ed ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Hi Ed, hi Boudewijn, let me combine your thoughts... Am 26.10.2010 um 17:24 schrieb W. B. Kranendonk: I never looked for other cases; would there be any trademark/copyright issues? Perhaps we should look for the case of an open phone, like.. ehr... yes, like which phone ;-) Boudewijn Am 26.10.2010 um 17:28 schrieb Ed Kapitein: On 10/26/2010 05:05 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: I think all your points are valid, it would be just a start to get the phone out to the public And perhpaps a part of the price could be used to get the parts/equipment to make a custom case. I took a look at my old htc magican and the screen dimensions are the same as the FR. The photo button is almost at the same location as the AUX button. The power button is somewhere else though. a cover cost aprox 22 dollar at [1] and perhpas less if you order a 100 or so. It wouldn't be a perfect sollution, but it might be a step on the road. Suddenly it became obvious... There is an open phone where approx. 18000 cases have been sold. It is called Neo Freerunner (and 3000 thereof are Neo 1973). So there are nice cases out there. Well, they lack some features, but other cases aren't perfect either. So why get a different one, when most of us already have one :) And those who don't have one yet could get a used Freerunner. So we could organize to collect all those unused Freerunners to get a new home. And make the GTA04 just a motherboard upgrade. This would reduce the pressure to produce a new plastics case... Nevertheless, we should continue to work on a really new (and different) case. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Tuesday 26 October 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 26.10.2010 um 10:58 schrieb Patryk Benderz: [cut] To say more of the price, it is necessary to have the design available. This question you asked Boudewijn, is very important. Nikolaus, do you have some design available for preview? If so, I could also make a research in Poland, how much would it cost? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CAD_models This is what I use for asking for quotes (the Neo 1973 case separated into the important parts): http://download.goldelico.com/ombeagle/images/Neo1973.step.zip BTW: I just come back from another plastics manufacturing company. They can produce a case by milling and glueing plastic plates. It would come to approx. 50 EUR. But is much larger (wall thickness 10 mm, slice thickness 3mm) and needs modifications to the whole construction. Personaly I would dislike this as a Smartphone (compared to a Nokia/Palm/HTC/Apple/Samsung) and we won't get many friends... 10mm?! Friends were doing better than that when I was at school! And I discussed with them about laser cutting. Their opinion: can be used only for engraving into acrylic parts and cutting a general shape. But not for fine grained cuts. The laser burns the plastics until the color changes. That runs counter to representations I've seen from multiple manufacturers. Here's a counterexample: http://www.cut-tec.co.uk/laser%20cut%20plastic.html Discolouration is a problem with polycarbonate, but many others seem to be fine. I guess there's only one way to find out for sure, and the case of my PJB100 is starting to fall apart. I'll let you know how I get on, and whether it ends up looking acceptable. How many new cases would you and your friends buy if it costs: * 20 EUR * 50 EUR * 100 EUR * 200 EUR I need at most 2 phones, and wouldn't recommend this style of phone to most of my friends. As for cost, it really depends on the case and what's going in it. I'd probably think twice about 200 EUR unless it was something special though! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Well I bought M6 steel today. I'll cut it tomorrow in the machine shop of my university... Lets hope, the MiniMendel fits together. I'll build the mendel SS all thread-dimension. So there will be enough space to do printing a freerunner case. Then I'll do a reduced version of the PCB, so that I can produce my own also in the students shop. Lets hope we have a Huxley around here soon :-D best regards leviathan signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Saturday 23 October 2010, David Arnold wrote: On 23/10/2010, at 9:40 AM, Al Johnson wrote: high quality design doesn't have to be expensive to manufacture. I suspect something attractive could be made in low volume at a reasonable price using laser cut plastics. I'll try to ask the local cutters about their precision and cut thickness in different materials. This is a totally un-researched idea, but ... What about a machined aluminium case? Nice faraday cage you've got there ;-) Machined plastic would be easier for RF and almost as nice. I would guess that rental of a CNC machine would not cost too much, and perhaps we could make an arrangement with a technical college or even commercial firm to use their equipment in otherwise idle times? Unless you know someone in the firm who's willing to do something unofficial you'd have to be very lucky to get a company to do that. Either they'll be set up for big runs, in which case they won't want to change anything, or they'll be charging people for small runs exactly like ours. CNC has non-trivial setup costs for programming the tool path, and possibly for tooling to hold the workpiece. A college is much more likely to accept the idea, and might even accept case design as a student project. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
--- On Sat, 10/23/10, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Well, an alternative approach could be to open a funds for a new injection mould. I.e. a Openmoko Case Production Foundation (or German e.V.). Everyone who gives some money for the funds can buy cases at a reduced rate. And everyone can buy a case. It sounds as a viable alternative. An injection mould costs somewhere around 20-100 k EUR. So if we get 300 community members to donate 100 EUR into the funds... A friend of mine used to be in the injection mould business; he designed and produced the moulds in Vietnam. I asked if he got some advice or an idea what the cost would be. I showed him my freerunner as example of where we come from. His input: - nice design (@freerunner) - moulds at 0.2 mm precision are not a problem, 0.1 mm requires more effort - depending on design, moulds start at some 6000 euro (or dollar, slipped my mind) - one case needs more than one mould - besides Vietnam, Czech is another country that can provide moulds at competitive prices Cases like that of the Freerunner, with more than one plastic, need more than one mould per piece. To say more of the price, it is necessary to have the design available. The most affordable option he says, would be to reuse Openmoko's mould if it is available. All in all nothing conclusive or very new I guess, but I liked to give the input anyway. Best regards, Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Saturday 23 October 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.10.2010 um 15:40 schrieb Al Johnson: On Friday 22 October 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 22.10.2010 um 02:17 schrieb Al Johnson: On Friday 22 October 2010, EdorFaus wrote: On 10/21/2010 07:59 PM, Alfa21 wrote: you should try 3d print like this: snip made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution Unfortunately, that's not quite good enough (different units). 0.01 inches = 0.254 mm, which is 2.54 times the required size: On 10/21/2010 07:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.) 0.1 mm is approximately 0.0039 inches. I have a question, though - is this precision required for making *any* well-working case design (due to the electronics etc.), or is it just for making more of the current case design? If it's the latter, it would be possible to create a new case design that would be easier to get manufactured... The electronics don't need much precision in the case design. Cases that clip together firmly and securely do need precision though, and that's true of the current design. An alternative design needing less precision is possible, especially if we accept things being screwed together. Generally yes. If we sacrifice quality, ergonomics, and size, we can find simpler and less expensive case constructions. I'm sure we can find alternative case construction methods that don't sacrifice much in any of those departments. They just won't be methods used in the mass market because they don't scale up to those production volumes, just as their methods don't scale down to ours. The pcb might need some design Well, we have anlysed approx. 5 or 6 different methods and none was inexpensive for low volumes. The only one that came down below 50 EUR per case is injection moulding. But I would be happy if you can guide the GTA04 to a different approach. It would be good if you could share the results of your research so other open hardware projects can get an idea of what a custom case might cost, and see how different manufacturing methods compare. It might also stop us suggesting things you've already investigated an rejected! Also exactly how low is low volume? Given the differences in setup costs for different manufacturing methods it could make a huge difference to the unit cost. elements suited to a different method of mounting than the current 'clip it into the injection moulding' variety, but this is for future generations not the current pcb. Well, the current board is really mounted by 2 torx screws and the connectors which fit into holes on the sides. The hooks and clips are not really necessary, which allows for a lot of simplifications. This is where some of us are currently working on to get the plastics produceable by a RepRap. I'll have to open my FR again to refresh my memory. I remember the GSM antenna connection being somewhat integral with the case assembly, but it would be nice to be mistaken! One aspect to keep in mind for precision are the push-buttons (AUX and Power). The buttons [1] are specified for a Travel 0.3 mm +0.1 –0.2 mm. I.e. if we don't want that the buttons get stuck we come to this 0.1mm precision. We have experienced the same with the PCB design where the position of the buttons must be within these 0.1mm... That doesn't mean the case needs that tolerance though. It just means the end of the actuator needs to stick over the edge of the pcb by the right amount to be operable. The external button can be lightly spring to take up the tolerance, or rest slightly clear of the button actuator. Alternative switch If I understand correctly, then the button would not fit smoothly into the case. It may stand out (or in) so it either gets trapped in the gauze of your trouser pockets, or you need long fingernails to press it. If designed to rest slightly clear of the pcb button it would sit where designed. If lightly sprung it would sit slightly further in. A tapered case edge, as we have with the current power button, makes this less disruptive as well as easier to find by touch. Even with a 0.5mm recess, which I doubt we would need, a button the size of the current aux button wouldn't need fingernails to press. types are an option for future designs, including a change to capacitive sensors as provided for by the v2 nav board. Not completely. The power button must be a mechanical button to wake up the processor from deep sleep. Or we drain the battery for a always-powered sensor chip. And, I am not sure if a sensor contact is safe enough for a smartphone in a pocket. The MPR121 on the nav board is supposed to draw 29uA for a 16ms sample period, less if we can stretch it out further. That gives a nominal battery life greater than 4 years, so battery drain shouldn't be a
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Well, we have anlysed approx. 5 or 6 different methods and none was inexpensive for low volumes. The only one that came down below 50 EUR per case is injection moulding. But I would be happy if you can guide the GTA04 to a different approach. It would be good if you could share the results of your research so other open hardware projects can get an idea of what a custom case might cost, and see how different manufacturing methods compare. It might also stop us suggesting things you've already investigated an rejected! Also exactly how low is low volume? Given the differences in setup costs for different manufacturing methods it could make a huge difference to the unit cost. All methods have setup cost (once) and cost per unit. Some methods have to repeat setup cost avery n units (e.g. silicon moulds made from Stereolitography). Our results so far (I can't share all of them): STL + Silicone moulds: 2000 EUR setup + 50 EUR each every 100 units Injection Moulds: 25000 EUR setup + 20 EUR per unit 3D-Printing: no setup, 400 EUR every unit (quality doubtful) Milling from ABS block: no setup, 500 EUR every unit So 1-10 units does not come below 250 EUR. 100 units may come to 70 EUR. 1000 units to 45 EUR. 10k to 22.50 EUR. You see the volume effect and clear preference of injection moulds. Which also give best quality... All these are lower estimates on industrial (not hobbyist) quality and based on 3D CAD files from Openmoko and does not include control of the process (someone must spend time to initiate and keep it running). Experience shows that real project cost is twice as high as the estimate... I agree that just suspecting that it exists is not enough . We have already spent several months discussing and asking for quotes and everyone can make such things. Technically. But if we ask for cost we are either beyond 100 EUR per piece in low quantities. Or there is need for some upfront investment that only pays off if we make more than around 1000 units. If you've already investigated laser cutting I'll stop now. I suggested it because the setup cost is very low relative to other methods, and I've seen a couple of one-off cases made that way. It also lends itself to manufacture at someone's local workshop, including laser-etched personalisation. I'm assuming people will be up for a bit of self-assembly here. Laser cutting was not yet amongst the production methods. Please try to get an estimate for setup cost (e.g. converting CAD data) and unit cost (material plus machine operation time). I think we all will be very happy if we finally find another method that does not need big VC money, i.e. can be done by joining all forces of our community. Well, an alternative approach could be to open a funds for a new injection mould. I.e. a Openmoko Case Production Foundation (or German e.V.). Everyone who gives some money for the funds can buy cases at a reduced rate. And everyone can buy a case. An injection mould costs somewhere around 20-100 k EUR. So if we get 300 community members to donate 100 EUR into the funds... That's certainly worth a look, especially if with a case design that would last for several generations of board. And potentially several different designs for the same board. BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 25.10.2010 um 13:09 schrieb W. B. Kranendonk: --- On Sat, 10/23/10, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Well, an alternative approach could be to open a funds for a new injection mould. I.e. a Openmoko Case Production Foundation (or German e.V.). Everyone who gives some money for the funds can buy cases at a reduced rate. And everyone can buy a case. It sounds as a viable alternative. An injection mould costs somewhere around 20-100 k EUR. So if we get 300 community members to donate 100 EUR into the funds... A friend of mine used to be in the injection mould business; he designed and produced the moulds in Vietnam. I asked if he got some advice or an idea what the cost would be. I showed him my freerunner as example of where we come from. His input: - nice design (@freerunner) - moulds at 0.2 mm precision are not a problem, 0.1 mm requires more effort - depending on design, moulds start at some 6000 euro (or dollar, slipped my mind) Yes, that is the same range what Protomold did quote for the middle part (i.e. one piece out of 10 of a complete case). The mould for the Power button is less expensive: approx. 1500 EUR. I.e. 10 buttons @ 150 EUR each :) But - the case is not even produceable by the Protomold process because it has undercuts which needs insets and quite complex mechanical constructions for a mould and drives cost extremely. - one case needs more than one mould Yes. Some parts could be combined in a single mould and then broken apart. Like in toys where you do it yourself. But this does not reduce mould construction cost. - besides Vietnam, Czech is another country that can provide moulds at competitive prices Cases like that of the Freerunner, with more than one plastic, need more than one mould per piece. To say more of the price, it is necessary to have the design available. The Maybe you can ask your friend if he has some contacts to Czech companies (which would be EU and simplify import/export). You can contact me by private mail about that. And, we have the CAD files of the original Freerunner. most affordable option he says, would be to reuse Openmoko's mould if it is available. Yes, I discussed that approach with Sean for quite a while and his team worked heavily on it (TNX :). But they don't own or have the moulds in their hands. All in all nothing conclusive or very new I guess, but I liked to give the input anyway. Yes, it is an independent view which is very important to hear. BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Monday 25 October 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Well, we have anlysed approx. 5 or 6 different methods and none was inexpensive for low volumes. The only one that came down below 50 EUR per case is injection moulding. But I would be happy if you can guide the GTA04 to a different approach. It would be good if you could share the results of your research so other open hardware projects can get an idea of what a custom case might cost, and see how different manufacturing methods compare. It might also stop us suggesting things you've already investigated an rejected! Also exactly how low is low volume? Given the differences in setup costs for different manufacturing methods it could make a huge difference to the unit cost. All methods have setup cost (once) and cost per unit. Some methods have to repeat setup cost avery n units (e.g. silicon moulds made from Stereolitography). Our results so far (I can't share all of them): STL + Silicone moulds: 2000 EUR setup + 50 EUR each every 100 units Injection Moulds: 25000 EUR setup + 20 EUR per unit 3D-Printing: no setup, 400 EUR every unit (quality doubtful) Milling from ABS block: no setup, 500 EUR every unit So 1-10 units does not come below 250 EUR. 100 units may come to 70 EUR. 1000 units to 45 EUR. 10k to 22.50 EUR. You see the volume effect and clear preference of injection moulds. Which also give best quality... All these are lower estimates on industrial (not hobbyist) quality and based on 3D CAD files from Openmoko and does not include control of the process (someone must spend time to initiate and keep it running). Experience shows that real project cost is twice as high as the estimate... Thanks. I'm surprised milling comes with no setup cost. Automated tool paths must have come on somewhat since I last looked, but that was probably longer ago than it seems. Laser cutting was not yet amongst the production methods. Please try to get an estimate for setup cost (e.g. converting CAD data) and unit cost (material plus machine operation time). Laser cutting isn't suitable for making the existing case design, so converting the cad data wouldn't be an issue. This would be a new design tailored to the production method. It's a fast and accurate way to cut shapes from (usually) sheet materials. Edge quality is good with the right materials, including ABS and especially acrylic. Setup costs are low to zero, particularly if you can supply a DXF with the outlines already offset for the cut width and set out on the sheet. You can get a rough idea of the capabilities at: http://www.pololu.com/docs/0J24/4 Prices from that site for one offs are low enough to be worth further investigation, at least for small numbers of cases. It may be time to try prototyping some ideas in cardboard... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
- besides Vietnam, Czech is another country that can provide moulds at competitive prices Cases like that of the Freerunner, with more than one plastic, need more than one mould per piece. To say more of the price, it is necessary to have the design available. The Maybe you can ask your friend if he has some contacts to Czech companies (which would be EU I will probably meet him next weekend and ask. I will let you know. have the CAD files of the original Freerunner. On the wiki, of course. I had a closer look at the exploded view of the FR/Neo; there's an awful lot of layers involved. Three(!) just for the backplane, that's about three times as many as I expected two days ago :-/ The image even seems to miss the outer cover of the middle part (the rubbery layer on top of the casing that holds the bulk of the phone and the buttons and such) most affordable option he says, would be to reuse Openmoko's mould if it is available. Yes, I discussed that approach with Sean for quite a while and his team worked heavily on it (TNX :). But they don't own or have the moulds in their hands. Funny how those things go... They'll be in FIC's hands then, I'd guess. They do not seem to be in phone/MID business anymore so there's no competitive (dis)advantage to worry about, and even if they were, I can imagine they'd start all over and design something different. Meaning those moulds are gathering dust somewhere on a shelf. Well, just pondering; it doesn't get us closer to a case ;-) Best regards, Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
2010-10...@21:09 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller The mould for the Power button is less expensive: approx. 1500 EUR. I.e. 10 buttons @ 150 EUR each :) mmh... why not include the button(s) in the same mould? it could be a shape like a C= attached to the main shape by a little plastic for the light of our leds we could make grids and holes... or we could also do an all transparent case (I'd love to see trough to view the electronic inside) -- ALFA21 IS PROVIDED AS IS AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
2010-10...@00:46 Alfa21 for the light of our leds we could make grids and holes... or we could also do an all transparent case (I'd love to see trough to view the electronic inside) ah and this is also to underline that our open project has nothing to hide! ;) (and one day maybe someone could also add a solar cell modding on the back side) -- ALFA21 IS PROVIDED AS IS AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
for the light of our leds we could make grids and holes... or we could also do an all transparent case (I'd love to see trough to view the electronic inside) sounds cool ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 8:42 AM, David Arnold dav...@pobox.com wrote: What about a machined aluminium case? I would guess that rental of a CNC machine would not cost too much, and perhaps we could make an arrangement with a technical college or even commercial firm to use their equipment in otherwise idle times? that would be awesome. though... got to make sure its isolated from the board. dont want to zap my tender bits if my phone rings. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 22.10.2010 um 19:17 schrieb Gennady Kupava: В Птн, 22/10/2010 в 05:36 -0700, RANJAN пишет: Hello, Recommendations for better hardware on Openmoko. 1)A 600 Mhz processor is minimally required to run the OS at usable speeds.An 800 Mhz processor would be good across all OSes.A 1Ghz processor would be too costly Hi, Ranjan. I just want to say that memory subsystem speed is much more important for speed than cpu speed. While testing freerunner, i've found that performance of system primitives of 500/83 CPU is similar to 400/100. So, really it is much more important to have fast memory subsystem. So, for example, 600/100 will be really not so far from to freerunner's at 440/110. Memory subsystem speed become extremly important if CPU lack of L2 cache. What is cache(s) size(s) of GTA04's CPU? It comes with a OMAP3530 [1]: ARM CortexTM-A8 Memory Architecture: – 16K-Byte Instruction Cache (4-Way Set-Associative) – 16K-Byte Data Cache (4-Way Set-Associative) – 256K-Byte L2 Cache • 112K-Byte ROM • 64K-Byte Shared SRAM If you want to start to experiment with this CPU today (and not wait for the GTA04), I suggest to get a BeagleBoard + our Hybrid Board (Touch-Display + GPS). The perceived speed (not a scientific measurement) is factor 10 faster. Best regards, Nikolaus [1]: http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/omap3530.pdf ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Friday 22 October 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 22.10.2010 um 02:17 schrieb Al Johnson: On Friday 22 October 2010, EdorFaus wrote: On 10/21/2010 07:59 PM, Alfa21 wrote: you should try 3d print like this: snip made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution Unfortunately, that's not quite good enough (different units). 0.01 inches = 0.254 mm, which is 2.54 times the required size: On 10/21/2010 07:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.) 0.1 mm is approximately 0.0039 inches. I have a question, though - is this precision required for making *any* well-working case design (due to the electronics etc.), or is it just for making more of the current case design? If it's the latter, it would be possible to create a new case design that would be easier to get manufactured... The electronics don't need much precision in the case design. Cases that clip together firmly and securely do need precision though, and that's true of the current design. An alternative design needing less precision is possible, especially if we accept things being screwed together. Generally yes. If we sacrifice quality, ergonomics, and size, we can find simpler and less expensive case constructions. I'm sure we can find alternative case construction methods that don't sacrifice much in any of those departments. They just won't be methods used in the mass market because they don't scale up to those production volumes, just as their methods don't scale down to ours. The pcb might need some design elements suited to a different method of mounting than the current 'clip it into the injection moulding' variety, but this is for future generations not the current pcb. One aspect to keep in mind for precision are the push-buttons (AUX and Power). The buttons [1] are specified for a Travel 0.3 mm +0.1 –0.2 mm. I.e. if we don't want that the buttons get stuck we come to this 0.1mm precision. We have experienced the same with the PCB design where the position of the buttons must be within these 0.1mm... That doesn't mean the case needs that tolerance though. It just means the end of the actuator needs to stick over the edge of the pcb by the right amount to be operable. The external button can be lightly spring to take up the tolerance, or rest slightly clear of the button actuator. Alternative switch types are an option for future designs, including a change to capacitive sensors as provided for by the v2 nav board. The same is with mounting the display. If that is not precise enough, touch operation will be deteriorated. Can you elaborate? There may be ways around this one too. So if we reduce precision of the case production process, the buttons become larger and finally, the phone is more a brick than a handheld phone :) Personally, I am in favour of high-end high-quality design (like the iPhone) even if it costs money. But it should never cost freedom and independence... high quality design doesn't have to be expensive to manufacture. I suspect something attractive could be made in low volume at a reasonable price using laser cut plastics. I'll try to ask the local cutters about their precision and cut thickness in different materials. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 23.10.2010 um 15:40 schrieb Al Johnson: On Friday 22 October 2010, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 22.10.2010 um 02:17 schrieb Al Johnson: On Friday 22 October 2010, EdorFaus wrote: On 10/21/2010 07:59 PM, Alfa21 wrote: you should try 3d print like this: snip made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution Unfortunately, that's not quite good enough (different units). 0.01 inches = 0.254 mm, which is 2.54 times the required size: On 10/21/2010 07:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.) 0.1 mm is approximately 0.0039 inches. I have a question, though - is this precision required for making *any* well-working case design (due to the electronics etc.), or is it just for making more of the current case design? If it's the latter, it would be possible to create a new case design that would be easier to get manufactured... The electronics don't need much precision in the case design. Cases that clip together firmly and securely do need precision though, and that's true of the current design. An alternative design needing less precision is possible, especially if we accept things being screwed together. Generally yes. If we sacrifice quality, ergonomics, and size, we can find simpler and less expensive case constructions. I'm sure we can find alternative case construction methods that don't sacrifice much in any of those departments. They just won't be methods used in the mass market because they don't scale up to those production volumes, just as their methods don't scale down to ours. The pcb might need some design Well, we have anlysed approx. 5 or 6 different methods and none was inexpensive for low volumes. The only one that came down below 50 EUR per case is injection moulding. But I would be happy if you can guide the GTA04 to a different approach. elements suited to a different method of mounting than the current 'clip it into the injection moulding' variety, but this is for future generations not the current pcb. Well, the current board is really mounted by 2 torx screws and the connectors which fit into holes on the sides. The hooks and clips are not really necessary, which allows for a lot of simplifications. This is where some of us are currently working on to get the plastics produceable by a RepRap. One aspect to keep in mind for precision are the push-buttons (AUX and Power). The buttons [1] are specified for a Travel 0.3 mm +0.1 –0.2 mm. I.e. if we don't want that the buttons get stuck we come to this 0.1mm precision. We have experienced the same with the PCB design where the position of the buttons must be within these 0.1mm... That doesn't mean the case needs that tolerance though. It just means the end of the actuator needs to stick over the edge of the pcb by the right amount to be operable. The external button can be lightly spring to take up the tolerance, or rest slightly clear of the button actuator. Alternative switch If I understand correctly, then the button would not fit smoothly into the case. It may stand out (or in) so it either gets trapped in the gauze of your trouser pockets, or you need long fingernails to press it. types are an option for future designs, including a change to capacitive sensors as provided for by the v2 nav board. Not completely. The power button must be a mechanical button to wake up the processor from deep sleep. Or we drain the battery for a always-powered sensor chip. And, I am not sure if a sensor contact is safe enough for a smartphone in a pocket. The same is with mounting the display. If that is not precise enough, touch operation will be deteriorated. Can you elaborate? There may be ways around this one too. The main thing is that the display bezel must be plane. Otherwise it may press on the display (touch) at one end and increase the risk of breaking the display glass. Or you get dust inside the device. On the other hand we know that the bezel of the Freerunner is already too thick. I.e. for better operation it should be much thinner. But still stable. Well, all this can be improved by changing the construction. So if we reduce precision of the case production process, the buttons become larger and finally, the phone is more a brick than a handheld phone :) Personally, I am in favour of high-end high-quality design (like the iPhone) even if it costs money. But it should never cost freedom and independence... high quality design doesn't have to be expensive to manufacture. I suspect something attractive could be made in low volume at a reasonable price using laser cut plastics. I'll try to ask the local cutters about their precision and cut thickness in different materials. I agree that just suspecting that it exists is not enough . We have already spent several months discussing and asking for quotes and everyone can make such things.
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On 23/10/2010, at 9:40 AM, Al Johnson wrote: high quality design doesn't have to be expensive to manufacture. I suspect something attractive could be made in low volume at a reasonable price using laser cut plastics. I'll try to ask the local cutters about their precision and cut thickness in different materials. This is a totally un-researched idea, but ... What about a machined aluminium case? I would guess that rental of a CNC machine would not cost too much, and perhaps we could make an arrangement with a technical college or even commercial firm to use their equipment in otherwise idle times? d ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 21.10.2010 um 19:59 schrieb Alfa21: 2010-10...@19:06 David Lanzendörfer True, but they're available from many more suppliers than moko plastics! Shame there isn't a transreflective version though... I today recieved the plastic parts for a RepRap. So we can soon start to design and produce the case for new OpenMokos. Only barrier: We need an extruder and some kilogram of granule first... -_- lg leviathan you should try 3d print like this: http://www.printo3d.com/ (and many others sellers!) I have asked them for a quotation (using STL data). Independently of the resulting quality we have to expect that a single set of plastic parts costs more than a complete Freerunner... So it confirms (again) our observation that all rapid prototyping methods are too expensive. I.e. we have to get quantity, i.e. enough people who clearly want a (new) case. This is more about revitalizing this community, and creating new hype for completely free and open smartphones. Ideas? Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 22.10.2010 um 02:17 schrieb Al Johnson: On Friday 22 October 2010, EdorFaus wrote: On 10/21/2010 07:59 PM, Alfa21 wrote: you should try 3d print like this: snip made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution Unfortunately, that's not quite good enough (different units). 0.01 inches = 0.254 mm, which is 2.54 times the required size: On 10/21/2010 07:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.) 0.1 mm is approximately 0.0039 inches. I have a question, though - is this precision required for making *any* well-working case design (due to the electronics etc.), or is it just for making more of the current case design? If it's the latter, it would be possible to create a new case design that would be easier to get manufactured... The electronics don't need much precision in the case design. Cases that clip together firmly and securely do need precision though, and that's true of the current design. An alternative design needing less precision is possible, especially if we accept things being screwed together. Generally yes. If we sacrifice quality, ergonomics, and size, we can find simpler and less expensive case constructions. One aspect to keep in mind for precision are the push-buttons (AUX and Power). The buttons [1] are specified for a Travel 0.3 mm +0.1 –0.2 mm. I.e. if we don't want that the buttons get stuck we come to this 0.1mm precision. We have experienced the same with the PCB design where the position of the buttons must be within these 0.1mm... The same is with mounting the display. If that is not precise enough, touch operation will be deteriorated. So if we reduce precision of the case production process, the buttons become larger and finally, the phone is more a brick than a handheld phone :) Personally, I am in favour of high-end high-quality design (like the iPhone) even if it costs money. But it should never cost freedom and independence... Nikolaus [1]: http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/ATV/ATVCE5.pdf ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
2010-10...@08:24 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller So if we reduce precision of the case production process, the buttons become larger and finally, the phone is more a brick than a handheld phone :) Personally, I am in favour of high-end high-quality design (like the iPhone) even if it costs money. I agree... but is 3d printing etc. just for prototypes or do you plan to use that also for the final product (with big volumes mass production)? I think 3d printing is ok only for the first case, to try also different shapes before but finalized to build the final and more precise mould. also I think a classic mould process is expensive just for small scales but for a mass production it's cheaper (on a single unit) and _faster_ than 3d print. and also it's more appealing to the eye of the final customer to see a smoth and higrade product. btw I think this is the really last step in the production process. by now imho it's more adequate to replace the current circuit board from our gta0x and eventually drill holes if you plan to add some different connector to the pcb (maybe a hdmi?) ;) -- ALFA21 IS PROVIDED AS IS AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
В Птн, 22/10/2010 в 05:36 -0700, RANJAN пишет: Hello, Recommendations for better hardware on Openmoko. 1)A 600 Mhz processor is minimally required to run the OS at usable speeds.An 800 Mhz processor would be good across all OSes.A 1Ghz processor would be too costly Hi, Ranjan. I just want to say that memory subsystem speed is much more important for speed than cpu speed. While testing freerunner, i've found that performance of system primitives of 500/83 CPU is similar to 400/100. So, really it is much more important to have fast memory subsystem. So, for example, 600/100 will be really not so far from to freerunner's at 440/110. Memory subsystem speed become extremly important if CPU lack of L2 cache. What is cache(s) size(s) of GTA04's CPU? Regards, Gennady. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Well First my cold has to cure. Then I will organize the still missing parts for the RepRap Then we will assemble it all Then we will print a first chassis Lets hope the granule extruder is in fact that precise, as the docs are telling. If yes, we can put the new board into it, and have the first prototype. As well the others will get one, so basically, there will already be 6 prototypes around. And as soon as we got something, which doesnt disassemble itself, after some days of usage, we will do a webshop for do-it-your-self prototype set to buy. With PCB+chassis+additional parts for self assembly. But this last step - the most wanted by most of you - will take some time. Mostly: Development speed + my cold + reprap slowness, as soon as it is running. best regards leviathan signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
2010-10...@07:36 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory: eh! your baby is growing up! nice nice nice! :) -- ALFA21 IS PROVIDED AS IS AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:12:58 +0200, Alfa21 freerun...@my.is.it wrote: 2010-10...@07:36 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory: eh! your baby is growing up! nice nice nice! :) I agree :) Can't wait! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Hi, One question: Do you only consider upgrades of existing Freerunners or would a complete phone also be an option? My (probably naive) impression is that you're only missing the case plastics to provide a complete GTA4 phone. Regards, Andreas On 21.10.2010 07:36, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 20.10.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Patryk Benderz: [cut] I will keep you updated. Nikolaus Thanks for sharing this, do you have some photos of this board? Looking Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00627.jpg http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00628.jpg The next version of the board layout will add two Hirose DF40 board-to-board connectors on the display side so that the GTA04 can be mounted on a expansion board (e.g. for a different/larger display). A populated board will finally look similar to this one: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg forward to hear more! :) As soon as we have something to share... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Thursday 21 October 2010, Andreas Fischer wrote: Hi, One question: Do you only consider upgrades of existing Freerunners or would a complete phone also be an option? My (probably naive) impression is that you're only missing the case plastics to provide a complete GTA4 phone. Most of the parts are here: http://www.handheld- linux.com/wiki.php?page=Accessoriesreferer=Neo%20Freerunner Not sure if the button plastics are included in the middle part or not. Not sure about the vibrator either, but everything else looks to be available, at least in limited quantities. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
The board looks great! Quite professional ;-) My (probably naive) impression is that you're only missing the case plastics to provide a complete GTA4 phone. The LCD comes in handy at times, was my first thought... Most of the parts are here: http://www.handheld- linux.com/wiki.php?page=Accessoriesreferer=Neo%20Freerunner Not sure if the button plastics are included in the middle part or not. Not sure about the vibrator either, but everything else looks to be available, at least in limited quantities. Yep, I see the vibrator on the photo: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner%3ASpare%20Parts and the LCD is also listed :-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Thursday 21 October 2010, W. B. Kranendonk wrote: The LCD comes in handy at times, was my first thought... True, but they're available from many more suppliers than moko plastics! Shame there isn't a transreflective version though... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
True, but they're available from many more suppliers than moko plastics! Shame there isn't a transreflective version though... I today recieved the plastic parts for a RepRap. So we can soon start to design and produce the case for new OpenMokos. Only barrier: We need an extruder and some kilogram of granule first... -_- lg leviathan signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 21.10.2010 um 17:18 schrieb Andreas Fischer: Hi, One question: Do you only consider upgrades of existing Freerunners or would a complete phone also be an option? My (probably naive) impression We not only plan these upgrade boards but also complete phones as a long term goal. Maybe, even in a different and improved industrial design. And in some years with a OMAP4 :) Our team is currently evaluating options (3D printers, rapid prototyping, 3D cutting, protomold, etc.) and trying to build prototypes, but did not yet come to conclusions. So please give us some more time. is that you're only missing the case plastics to provide a complete GTA4 phone. Well, it is only adding some minor components to the kit (antenna, battery, USB-charger, vibramotor, earpiece, speakers) plus a set of plastic parts. But plastics is quite a heavy challenge if you really want to do it without big venture capital. Even larger than getting the PCBs shown in the photos... The problem appears to be that the inexpensive rapid prototyping methods don't have the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.) and those with high quality are prohibitively expensive. Unless you, i.e. the community, is willing to do fixed pre-orders for a total of at least 1000 units. The idea of having the community design different cases for the Neo 1973 and Freerunner is quite old [1], but I think there was only one group to show up with a case extension [2]. This can be printed e.g. at Shapeways but is not stiff and precise enough for daily use. [1]: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:Neo1973:Alternate_Cases [2]: http://openmokast.org/cad-files.html BR, Nikolaus Regards, Andreas On 21.10.2010 07:36, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 20.10.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Patryk Benderz: [cut] I will keep you updated. Nikolaus Thanks for sharing this, do you have some photos of this board? Looking Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00627.jpg http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00628.jpg The next version of the board layout will add two Hirose DF40 board-to-board connectors on the display side so that the GTA04 can be mounted on a expansion board (e.g. for a different/larger display). A populated board will finally look similar to this one: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg forward to hear more! :) As soon as we have something to share... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 21.10.2010 um 18:05 schrieb Al Johnson: On Thursday 21 October 2010, Andreas Fischer wrote: Hi, One question: Do you only consider upgrades of existing Freerunners or would a complete phone also be an option? My (probably naive) impression is that you're only missing the case plastics to provide a complete GTA4 phone. Most of the parts are here: http://www.handheld- linux.com/wiki.php?page=Accessoriesreferer=Neo%20Freerunner Not sure if the button plastics are included in the middle part or not. Not sure about the vibrator either, but everything else looks to be available, at least in limited quantities. Yes, but *very* limited quantities... And no chance to produce more. I did discuss with Sean how we could get access to the original tools for community use, but there are financial, legal, bureaucratic and many other issues. So we decided not to put too much effort into that aproach. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 21.10.2010 um 18:21 schrieb W. B. Kranendonk: The board looks great! Quite professional ;-) My (probably naive) impression is that you're only missing the case plastics to provide a complete GTA4 phone. The LCD comes in handy at times, was my first thought... Most of the parts are here: http://www.handheld- linux.com/wiki.php?page=Accessoriesreferer=Neo%20Freerunner Not sure if the button plastics are included in the middle part or not. Not sure about the vibrator either, but everything else looks to be available, at least in limited quantities. Yep, I see the vibrator on the photo: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner%3ASpare%20Parts and the LCD is also listed :-) We know the suppliers and part numbers of all these things (thanks to the GTA02-core project!) but that does not necessarily mean that the parts are easy to purchase. But plastics was an individually produced part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
2010-10...@19:06 David Lanzendörfer True, but they're available from many more suppliers than moko plastics! Shame there isn't a transreflective version though... I today recieved the plastic parts for a RepRap. So we can soon start to design and produce the case for new OpenMokos. Only barrier: We need an extruder and some kilogram of granule first... -_- lg leviathan you should try 3d print like this: http://www.printo3d.com/ (and many others sellers!) made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitrile_butadiene_styrene -- ALFA21 IS PROVIDED AS IS AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On 10/21/2010 07:59 PM, Alfa21 wrote: you should try 3d print like this: snip made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution Unfortunately, that's not quite good enough (different units). 0.01 inches = 0.254 mm, which is 2.54 times the required size: On 10/21/2010 07:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.) 0.1 mm is approximately 0.0039 inches. I have a question, though - is this precision required for making *any* well-working case design (due to the electronics etc.), or is it just for making more of the current case design? If it's the latter, it would be possible to create a new case design that would be easier to get manufactured... -- Regards, EdorFaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
On Friday 22 October 2010, EdorFaus wrote: On 10/21/2010 07:59 PM, Alfa21 wrote: you should try 3d print like this: snip made in ABS which is a good plastic and up to 0.01 inches resolution Unfortunately, that's not quite good enough (different units). 0.01 inches = 0.254 mm, which is 2.54 times the required size: On 10/21/2010 07:32 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: the required precision (0.1 mm, 0.5 mm wall thickness, etc.) 0.1 mm is approximately 0.0039 inches. I have a question, though - is this precision required for making *any* well-working case design (due to the electronics etc.), or is it just for making more of the current case design? If it's the latter, it would be possible to create a new case design that would be easier to get manufactured... The electronics don't need much precision in the case design. Cases that clip together firmly and securely do need precision though, and that's true of the current design. An alternative design needing less precision is possible, especially if we accept things being screwed together. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
[cut] I will keep you updated. Nikolaus Thanks for sharing this, do you have some photos of this board? Looking forward to hear more! :) -- Patryk LeadMan Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 20.10.2010 um 09:56 schrieb Patryk Benderz: [cut] I will keep you updated. Nikolaus Thanks for sharing this, do you have some photos of this board? Looking Here is the photo of a bare board as it came from the PCB factory: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00627.jpg http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00628.jpg The next version of the board layout will add two Hirose DF40 board-to-board connectors on the display side so that the GTA04 can be mounted on a expansion board (e.g. for a different/larger display). A populated board will finally look similar to this one: http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg forward to hear more! :) As soon as we have something to share... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 16.09.2010 um 10:36 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: Am 16.09.2010 um 10:03 schrieb Sylvain Paré: and which are the next steps between this and a real future GTA04 end-user phone? For the hardware, we have to test the PCB and see if it smokes or the Tux smiles on the screen. Then, we have to get RF certifications and get components for building more than some samples. Today, we received the first PCBs for the GTA04. It has passed a mechanical test (just some connectors and buttons mounted) and this bare board fits exactly into the GTA02 case. Next, some chips are soldered and we do measurements. Before we solder the more expensive components (CPU, UMTS module). I will keep you updated. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Good luck and thanks for keeping us up to date! On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Am 16.09.2010 um 10:36 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: Am 16.09.2010 um 10:03 schrieb Sylvain Paré: and which are the next steps between this and a real future GTA04 end-user phone? For the hardware, we have to test the PCB and see if it smokes or the Tux smiles on the screen. Then, we have to get RF certifications and get components for building more than some samples. Today, we received the first PCBs for the GTA04. It has passed a mechanical test (just some connectors and buttons mounted) and this bare board fits exactly into the GTA02 case. Next, some chips are soldered and we do measurements. Before we solder the more expensive components (CPU, UMTS module). I will keep you updated. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Em 19-10-2010 16:13, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escreveu: Today, we received the first PCBs for the GTA04. It has passed a mechanical test (just some connectors and buttons mounted) and this bare board fits exactly into the GTA02 case. Next, some chips are soldered and we do measurements. Before we solder the more expensive components (CPU, UMTS module). I will keep you updated. Nikolaus Great news! :) Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 16.09.2010 um 17:00 schrieb Gennady Kupava: The OMAP CPU is much faster and many interface controllers are also improved. 'much faster' is enemy of 'fast', so if it is possible to make something even better, why not. Here I have found two videos that demo the boot and graphics speed of the BeagleBoard (which uses the same SoC as the GTA04 will have): Ubuntu, Angstrom, Enlightenment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuVwh_VrIxkfeature=related Android 2.2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb9mdqqGXeE Afaik they used vanilla distributions with no special optimizations like TinyX etc. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN: Hi, When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released??? Regards Sriranjan I have good news to announce. We have again made progress towards our goals. The first step is that the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] (which is our experimental and development prototype of such a new Openmoko) is now working on the BeagleBoard XM [2]. We had to find a new solution to solder the connectors (since the BB-XM already has some). And to do some minor software changes to U-Boot. But now it works. Here you can find some photos of the assembly process: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/page/ConnectToBeagleboardXM/ We now have a 1 GHz ARM Cortex A8 with 3D Video behind a Freerunner touch display! And there is also good news for the GTA04 OMAP/UMTS upgrade board. We have finalized the PCB layout and ordered (thanks to a bigger donation) 10 sample boards and a SMD stencil. They will arrive in 2-3 weeks. How it could look like is shown here (showing a 2-layer mockup board and some of the core components): http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg Nikolaus [1]: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid [2]: http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Hi, Thanks for these news! Some questions: Does Openmoko Inc. is involved in this right now ? and which are the next steps between this and a real future GTA04 end-user phone? Again thanks for your work! BR Sylvain (aka GarthPS) 2010/9/16 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN: Hi, When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released??? Regards Sriranjan I have good news to announce. We have again made progress towards our goals. The first step is that the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] (which is our experimental and development prototype of such a new Openmoko) is now working on the BeagleBoard XM [2]. We had to find a new solution to solder the connectors (since the BB-XM already has some). And to do some minor software changes to U-Boot. But now it works. Here you can find some photos of the assembly process: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/page/ConnectToBeagleboardXM/ We now have a 1 GHz ARM Cortex A8 with 3D Video behind a Freerunner touch display! And there is also good news for the GTA04 OMAP/UMTS upgrade board. We have finalized the PCB layout and ordered (thanks to a bigger donation) 10 sample boards and a SMD stencil. They will arrive in 2-3 weeks. How it could look like is shown here (showing a 2-layer mockup board and some of the core components): http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg Nikolaus [1]: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beaglehttp://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko+Beagle http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid [2]: http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 16.09.2010 um 10:03 schrieb Sylvain Paré: Hi, Thanks for these news! Some questions: Does Openmoko Inc. is involved in this right now ? Not directly. We hope they can become more involved in the future, e.g. as a distributor for Asia (the project is run in Europe) or when we really reach mass production. For development and producing small quantities it is easier and less expensive to have all people in one place. and which are the next steps between this and a real future GTA04 end-user phone? For the hardware, we have to test the PCB and see if it smokes or the Tux smiles on the screen. Then, we have to get RF certifications and get components for building more than some samples. It is still a long way to go. Software should be quite less challenging. We have Debian Lenny running on our demonstrator (i.e. with kernel drivers for display and touch screen). So distributions like SHR and QtMoko should be available right from day one (even before?). Nevertheless there are many areas for experimenting with software: * WLAN, Bluetooth * use the built in sensors (compass etc.) * make the audio subsystem work to allow phone calls * etc. Again thanks for your work! BR Sylvain (aka GarthPS) 2010/9/16 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN: Hi, When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released??? Regards Sriranjan I have good news to announce. We have again made progress towards our goals. The first step is that the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] (which is our experimental and development prototype of such a new Openmoko) is now working on the BeagleBoard XM [2]. We had to find a new solution to solder the connectors (since the BB-XM already has some). And to do some minor software changes to U-Boot. But now it works. Here you can find some photos of the assembly process: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/page/ConnectToBeagleboardXM/ We now have a 1 GHz ARM Cortex A8 with 3D Video behind a Freerunner touch display! And there is also good news for the GTA04 OMAP/UMTS upgrade board. We have finalized the PCB layout and ordered (thanks to a bigger donation) 10 sample boards and a SMD stencil. They will arrive in 2-3 weeks. How it could look like is shown here (showing a 2-layer mockup board and some of the core components): http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg Nikolaus [1]: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid [2]: http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 16.09.2010 um 10:03 schrieb Sylvain Paré: Hi, Thanks for these news! Some questions: Does Openmoko Inc. is involved in this right now ? Not directly. We hope they can become more involved in the future, e.g. as a distributor for Asia (the project is run in Europe) or when we really reach mass production. For development and producing small quantities it is easier and less expensive to have all people in one place. and which are the next steps between this and a real future GTA04 end-user phone? For the hardware, we have to test the PCB and see if it smokes or the Tux smiles on the screen. Then, we have to get RF certifications and get components for building more than some samples. It is still a long way to go. Software should be quite less challenging. We have Debian Lenny running on our demonstrator (i.e. with kernel drivers for display and touch screen). So distributions like SHR and QtMoko should be available right from day one (even before?). Nevertheless there are many areas for experimenting with software: * WLAN, Bluetooth * use the built in sensors (compass and GPS etc.) * make the audio subsystem work to allow phone calls * power management * etc. Again thanks for your work! BR Sylvain (aka GarthPS) 2010/9/16 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN: Hi, When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released??? Regards Sriranjan I have good news to announce. We have again made progress towards our goals. The first step is that the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] (which is our experimental and development prototype of such a new Openmoko) is now working on the BeagleBoard XM [2]. We had to find a new solution to solder the connectors (since the BB-XM already has some). And to do some minor software changes to U-Boot. But now it works. Here you can find some photos of the assembly process: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/page/ConnectToBeagleboardXM/ We now have a 1 GHz ARM Cortex A8 with 3D Video behind a Freerunner touch display! And there is also good news for the GTA04 OMAP/UMTS upgrade board. We have finalized the PCB layout and ordered (thanks to a bigger donation) 10 sample boards and a SMD stencil. They will arrive in 2-3 weeks. How it could look like is shown here (showing a 2-layer mockup board and some of the core components): http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg Nikolaus [1]: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko%20Beagle http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid [2]: http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Hi, Nicolaus. I have few ideas about about performance. Major bottleneck of freerunner is amount of memory, so please can you push as much memory to new device as possible. This will make device lightning fast. Second idea is related to memory too, but i am much less sure about it. Can we have some lightning fast sram on device? if bootloader will load kernel code into it - this may bring huge speed benefit. I hope i'll be able to buy successor of FR soon. Gennady. В Чтв, 16/09/2010 в 10:36 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller пишет: Am 16.09.2010 um 10:03 schrieb Sylvain Paré: Hi, Thanks for these news! Some questions: Does Openmoko Inc. is involved in this right now ? Not directly. We hope they can become more involved in the future, e.g. as a distributor for Asia (the project is run in Europe) or when we really reach mass production. For development and producing small quantities it is easier and less expensive to have all people in one place. and which are the next steps between this and a real future GTA04 end-user phone? For the hardware, we have to test the PCB and see if it smokes or the Tux smiles on the screen. Then, we have to get RF certifications and get components for building more than some samples. It is still a long way to go. Software should be quite less challenging. We have Debian Lenny running on our demonstrator (i.e. with kernel drivers for display and touch screen). So distributions like SHR and QtMoko should be available right from day one (even before?). Nevertheless there are many areas for experimenting with software: * WLAN, Bluetooth * use the built in sensors (compass and GPS etc.) * make the audio subsystem work to allow phone calls * power management * etc. Again thanks for your work! BR Sylvain (aka GarthPS) 2010/9/16 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org Am 12.08.2010 um 14:12 schrieb RANJAN: Hi, When is the next and more powerful openmoko (capable of seamless 3D video and faster processor) is going to be released??? Regards Sriranjan I have good news to announce. We have again made progress towards our goals. The first step is that the Openmoko Beagle Hybrid [1] (which is our experimental and development prototype of such a new Openmoko) is now working on the BeagleBoard XM [2]. We had to find a new solution to solder the connectors (since the BB-XM already has some). And to do some minor software changes to U-Boot. But now it works. Here you can find some photos of the assembly process: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/ombeagle/page/ConnectToBeagleboardXM/ We now have a 1 GHz ARM Cortex A8 with 3D Video behind a Freerunner touch display! And there is also good news for the GTA04 OMAP/UMTS upgrade board. We have finalized the PCB layout and ordered (thanks to a bigger donation) 10 sample boards and a SMD stencil. They will arrive in 2-3 weeks. How it could look like is shown here (showing a 2-layer mockup board and some of the core components): http://download.goldelico.com/gta04/images/DSC00477.jpg Nikolaus [1]: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Openmoko% 20Beagle http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Openmoko_Beagle_Hybrid [2]: http://beagleboard.org/hardware-xM ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 16.09.2010 um 10:05 schrieb Gennady Kupava: Hi, Nicolaus. I have few ideas about about performance. Major bottleneck of freerunner is amount of memory, so please can you push as much memory to new device as possible. This will make device lightning fast. Second idea is The OMAP uses the Package-on-Package concept so we can install different memory modules depending on what we want, what is available and what it costs. There are chips with RAM only and chips with RAM/NAND flash to choose from. But we will have at least 256 MByte (I think there aren't any smaller chips). related to memory too, but i am much less sure about it. Can we have some lightning fast sram on device? if bootloader will load kernel code into it - this may bring huge speed benefit. The OMAP CPU is much faster and many interface controllers are also improved. And, we know that fast boot is possible. At least someone has done it for the Beagle Board: http://swiftbeagle.googlecode.com/files/beagleboard_project_hui_keji.pdf They claim that they have achieved 3 seconds from power up to login: on the serial console. Well, running X11 also needs some time. Nikolaus I hope i'll be able to buy successor of FR soon. Gennady. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 16.09.2010 um 10:05 schrieb Gennady Kupava: Hi, Nicolaus. I have few ideas about about performance. Major bottleneck of freerunner is amount of memory, so please can you push as much memory to new device as possible. This will make device lightning fast. Second idea is The OMAP uses the Package-on-Package concept so we can install different memory modules depending on what we want, what is available and what it costs. There are chips with RAM only and chips with RAM/NAND flash to choose from. But we will have at least 256 MByte (I think there aren't any smaller chips). related to memory too, but i am much less sure about it. Can we have some lightning fast sram on device? if bootloader will load kernel code into it - this may bring huge speed benefit. The OMAP CPU is much faster and many interface controllers are also improved. And, we know that fast boot is possible. At least someone has done it for the Beagle Board: http://swiftbeagle.googlecode.com/files/beagleboard_project_hui_keji.pdf They claim that they have achieved 3 seconds from power up to login: on the serial console. Well, running X11 also needs some time. Nikolaus I hope i'll be able to buy successor of FR soon. Gennady. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
В Чтв, 16/09/2010 в 12:54 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller пишет: Am 16.09.2010 um 10:05 schrieb Gennady Kupava: Hi, Nicolaus. I have few ideas about about performance. Major bottleneck of freerunner is amount of memory, so please can you push as much memory to new device as possible. This will make device lightning fast. Second idea is The OMAP uses the Package-on-Package concept so we can install different memory modules depending on what we want, what is available and what it costs. There are chips with RAM only and chips with RAM/NAND flash to choose from. But we will have at least 256 MByte (I think there aren't any smaller chips). 512 would be excellent. only possible problem is increased power consumption, but one may disable one chip if he case about consumption too much. related to memory too, but i am much less sure about it. Can we have some lightning fast sram on device? if bootloader will load kernel code into it - this may bring huge speed benefit. The OMAP CPU is much faster and many interface controllers are also improved. 'much faster' is enemy of 'fast', so if it is possible to make something even better, why not. But please consider my last idea with great care - i am not hw deleloper just after learning memory subsystem i understood that such system may bring really big benefits. And, we know that fast boot is possible. At least someone has done it for the Beagle Board: http://swiftbeagle.googlecode.com/files/beagleboard_project_hui_keji.pdf They claim that they have achieved 3 seconds from power up to login: on the serial console. Well, running X11 also needs some time. From my point of view, boot time especially if it is in 1 minute is not really important. More important how fast it will run while usual usage, how easy is boot system to understand and fix, and how much it deviates from desktop systems. I do not want use busybox shell under any conditions, but running all that services to boot up fully-functional system will take much more time than 3 seconds. (authors use uclibc and busybox, hack init scripts like disable log, disable u-boot menu, disable logs, remove everything from kernel) The way authors of paper archive such boot times influence later speed of device. For example, they propose to use XIP, which will cetrainly decrease kernel speed. Other example is that they 'compiling everything with -Os', it may greatly decrease performance in favor of boot time. PS. please notice your mailer producing doublicating mails (see http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-September/date.html ) Gennady ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Hi, And, we know that fast boot is possible. At least someone has done it for the Beagle Board: http://swiftbeagle.googlecode.com/files/beagleboard_project_hui_keji.pdf They claim that they have achieved 3 seconds from power up to login: on the serial console. Well, running X11 also needs some time. From my point of view, boot time especially if it is in 1 minute is not really important. More important how fast it will run while usual usage, Yes, it is below 1 minute. To give you an indication, I have done a test on one of our development systems: BeagleBoard C2 i.e. 600 MHz CPU, 256 MB RAM, unoptimized full blown Debian Lenny, all files loaded from SDHC card): 1 seconds Texas Instruments X-Loader 1.4.4ss (Aug 19 2010 - 02:49:27) 2 seconds U-Boot 2010.03-01183-g43b5706-dirty (Sep 15 2010 - 16:19:43) 11 seconds [0.00] Linux version 2.6.32 (h...@imac.local) (gcc version 4.2.4) #48 PREEMPT Tue Jun 8 14:21:52 CEST 2010 21 seconds INIT: version 2.86 booting 37 seconds Debian GNU/Linux 5.0 bb-debian ttyS2 bb-debian login: how easy is boot system to understand and fix, and how much it deviates There is a boot ROM which loads the X-Loader which loads U-Boot. from desktop systems. I do not want use busybox shell under any Well, that largely depends on what you install. conditions, but running all that services to boot up fully-functional system will take much more time than 3 seconds. (authors use uclibc and busybox, hack init scripts like disable log, disable u-boot menu, disable logs, remove everything from kernel) The way authors of paper archive such boot times influence later speed of device. For example, they propose to use XIP, which will cetrainly decrease kernel speed. Other example is that they 'compiling everything with -Os', it may greatly decrease performance in favor of boot time. That is true. Therefore we leave such optimizations to the software community. I could imagine a simple and small distro that only allows to make phone calls but boots in 10 seconds. And a full desktop-like PDA/Smartphone that takes 60 seconds for the GUI to appear. Regarding memory we currently plan to use this memory chip: http://www.micron.com/products/ProductDetails.html?product=products/mcp/multichip_packages/MT29C4G48MAZAPAKQ-5+IT Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Regarding memory we currently plan to use this memory chip: http://www.micron.com/products/ProductDetails.html?product=products/mcp/multichip_packages/MT29C4G48MAZAPAKQ-5+IT 2Gb @ 166MHz - nice! Gennady ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [GTA04] When is the next and more powerful openmoko releasing
Am 16.09.2010 19:40, schrieb Gennady Kupava: Regarding memory we currently plan to use this memory chip: http://www.micron.com/products/ProductDetails.html?product=products/mcp/multichip_packages/MT29C4G48MAZAPAKQ-5+IT 2Gb @ 166MHz - nice! If i'm correct than it is 2Gbit and not 2Gbyte Ram. Therefor it is only 256MB Ram and additional 512MB NAND. But that's twice as much as the freerunner has. :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
