Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thursday 16 October 2008 11:15:59 W.Kenworthy wrote: A phone that works: reliably make and receive calls reliably make and receive sms's I absolutely agree. I think this is the most important now. Thanks, ßingen. -- ßingen. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
One thing I forgot to mention about 2007.2: Accelerometers don't work, which is kinda annoying. In terms of 2007.2 being maintained, I wouldn't hold your breath. SHR could be interesting, though... -Dale Giovanni wrote: I'm also still using 2007.2, which is reasonably stable. I have the same usage/behavior as Dale Maggee wrote. I also hope that 2007.2 can be improved and maintained until there is a really stable distro. On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Dale Maggee [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I'm still using 2007.2, because in my experience it does have the most solid phone/sms functionality. It's far from perfect, though: - Suspend / resume is a dog, and since it's not being worked on any more I'm doubtful that this will ever be fixed. I have suspend and resume turned off, and use the 'dim only, don't lock' option, which turns off and locks the screen (despite the label), but doesn't suspend it. This gives reasonable reliability, but means you're limited to about 4-6 hours of battery life. - hangs - after amassing quite a few SMS's and a large call history, it takes a *long* time to open the dialler or the messaging application. During this time it's sitting at 99% CPU utilization. It works, but you need to be patient. Thankfully the dialler seems to pop up quickly when you're recieving a call. - Lockups - after using it for a while, it seems to require rebooting about once every 2 days or so - it just seems to freeze for no apparent reason. This may be due to something I've done. I'm impressed by Qtopia and by FSO3, but both have caveats which for me meant using 2007.2. I'm not a fan of ASU / 2008.x at all, although I am about to give FDOM a try. -Dale Warren Baird wrote: I must admit I never tried 2007.2 - but the things I read about it suggested that it also wasn't very stable - people recommended using Qtopia if you wanted a stable phone experience. Does 2007.2 really provide a rock-solid phone/sms experience? Warren On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Johny Tenfinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 19:54, Warren Baird [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Until I'm convinced those items are addressed, my $400 FR is going to remain turned off in my backpack, and my friends who bought iPhones will continue to laugh at me for 'wasting' my money on such a 'phone'. *please* give me some ammunition to use against them! Use the 2007.2, Luke! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I'm still using 2007.2, because in my experience it does have the most solid phone/sms functionality. It's far from perfect, though: - Suspend / resume is a dog, and since it's not being worked on any more I'm doubtful that this will ever be fixed. I have suspend and resume turned off, and use the 'dim only, don't lock' option, which turns off and locks the screen (despite the label), but doesn't suspend it. This gives reasonable reliability, but means you're limited to about 4-6 hours of battery life. - hangs - after amassing quite a few SMS's and a large call history, it takes a *long* time to open the dialler or the messaging application. During this time it's sitting at 99% CPU utilization. It works, but you need to be patient. Thankfully the dialler seems to pop up quickly when you're recieving a call. - Lockups - after using it for a while, it seems to require rebooting about once every 2 days or so - it just seems to freeze for no apparent reason. This may be due to something I've done. I'm impressed by Qtopia and by FSO3, but both have caveats which for me meant using 2007.2. I'm not a fan of ASU / 2008.x at all, although I am about to give FDOM a try. -Dale Warren Baird wrote: I must admit I never tried 2007.2 - but the things I read about it suggested that it also wasn't very stable - people recommended using Qtopia if you wanted a stable phone experience. Does 2007.2 really provide a rock-solid phone/sms experience? Warren On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Johny Tenfinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 19:54, Warren Baird [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Until I'm convinced those items are addressed, my $400 FR is going to remain turned off in my backpack, and my friends who bought iPhones will continue to laugh at me for 'wasting' my money on such a 'phone'. *please* give me some ammunition to use against them! Use the 2007.2, Luke! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Hi, I think that you need to maintain the gta02, because a lot of people did buy this waiting for a usable FOS Phone. The second point is, you need to move ASAP to a definitive stack, not change any time, or we will never have a stable one! Thank you, Levy 'Lewis' S. Google Talk! [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ 12913566 MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 05:47, John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: * Reduce boot time. * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage. * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python scripts. * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience. I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? The idea is * We improve the current stack, not creating new features. * Prefer stuffs which could be brought over to gta03 instead of gta02/om2008 specific. * won't work on om2007 stack. So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! :) Regards, John ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I'm also still using 2007.2, which is reasonably stable. I have the same usage/behavior as Dale Maggee wrote. I also hope that 2007.2 can be improved and maintained until there is a really stable distro. On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Dale Maggee [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I'm still using 2007.2, because in my experience it does have the most solid phone/sms functionality. It's far from perfect, though: - Suspend / resume is a dog, and since it's not being worked on any more I'm doubtful that this will ever be fixed. I have suspend and resume turned off, and use the 'dim only, don't lock' option, which turns off and locks the screen (despite the label), but doesn't suspend it. This gives reasonable reliability, but means you're limited to about 4-6 hours of battery life. - hangs - after amassing quite a few SMS's and a large call history, it takes a *long* time to open the dialler or the messaging application. During this time it's sitting at 99% CPU utilization. It works, but you need to be patient. Thankfully the dialler seems to pop up quickly when you're recieving a call. - Lockups - after using it for a while, it seems to require rebooting about once every 2 days or so - it just seems to freeze for no apparent reason. This may be due to something I've done. I'm impressed by Qtopia and by FSO3, but both have caveats which for me meant using 2007.2. I'm not a fan of ASU / 2008.x at all, although I am about to give FDOM a try. -Dale Warren Baird wrote: I must admit I never tried 2007.2 - but the things I read about it suggested that it also wasn't very stable - people recommended using Qtopia if you wanted a stable phone experience. Does 2007.2 really provide a rock-solid phone/sms experience? Warren On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Johny Tenfinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 19:54, Warren Baird [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Until I'm convinced those items are addressed, my $400 FR is going to remain turned off in my backpack, and my friends who bought iPhones will continue to laugh at me for 'wasting' my money on such a 'phone'. *please* give me some ammunition to use against them! Use the 2007.2, Luke! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I must admit I never tried 2007.2 - but the things I read about it suggested that it also wasn't very stable - people recommended using Qtopia if you wanted a stable phone experience. Does 2007.2 really provide a rock-solid phone/sms experience? No. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 10:36:38AM -0400, Feydreva wrote: I am not a developer, but i test the images and try to use the openmoko... My main issue with Openmoko are : 1) Battery life : only 4hrs, and when you charge it, it discharge itself after a while. I cannot use it as a daily phone :/ 2) Basic telephony : the phone should wake up faster than it does now the time the phone wakes up, rings, and you pick the call, there has been 6 rings for the other party, and may already be on the voicemail 3)Basic text message should work flawlessly. 4) A way to set up the sound and rings ... There is actually no gui for that Try install qtopia-phone-x11-ringprofile-app-data You might also need illume-theme-illume and use illume in /etc/enlightenment/default_profile to enable the wrench icon. 5) I haven;t find yet where to activate the PIN or not... I put 1 sim card that asked for a pin, it work.. I put a another sim card, where no pin is needed.. it was still asking for a pin... (I had to reflash to solve this one) but there is no Menu where I could choose, Pin on/off, if pin on, set up the pin I do not care at all about any other application. I want a daily phone... where i can receive, make call, receive and send text message, and have the phone a day with me, wihotut having to cahrge it every 2 hrs... (8-10 hrs battery life would be better, with wifi on, gps off) Until we reach this point, I will continue tu use my dumb phone eeyday, and the FR will catch some dust on a shelve... Peace Philippe On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On 19 Oct 2008, at 13:46, Dale Maggee wrote: arne anka wrote: ==Pim device== imho that's exactly the kind of task openmoko did _not_ ask for. I would respectfully disagree - Openmoko asked about Improving user experience, and users are saying they want to experience PIM capabilities. ... and it's doable by community! Agreed, it could be done by the community, but I don't see anyone doing it, and I'm not smart enough, nor do I have the time at the moment. It does not matter whether YOU could do it or not. it's a matter of where Openmoko's resources are best spent. If you can't write a PIM app, then you CERTAINLY can't write kernel drivers - THAT is where Openmoko's resources should be mist focussed, IMO. As others have stated, there is some hardware-level stuff that only Openmoko has NDA for. And without working hardware drivers to ensure that phonecalls work flawlessly (and wifi, and bluetooth), a PIM is irrelevant. there are a lot of posts lately completely ignoring the point of basics and no eyecandy I haven't seen anybody ask for pretty-looking PIM applications, people seem to be asking for *reliable* PIM applications. I'd call reliability and robustness basic. Basic reliability and robustness resides in a program with which you can enter a number and make a call. Once that prototype exists it is much easier for the community to extend it to PIM functionality. Openmoko can then move on to wifi drivers, Glamo hardware acceleration and pairing of bluetooth headsets. pim frinst is at it's best part of a middle tier, but rather of a particular distribution -- This kind of comes into the Should FSO merge be sped up? debate, as I believe the framework has PIM stuff built into it. AIUI (and I would be delighted to be corrected if I'm wrong), the FSO stuff is intended to provide functions which will allow you to make simple DBUS calls such as get number $var from PIM manager and make call to number $var. Once these are complete, writing your own applications becomes easy. True the first of these example calls requests you integrate the functionality in your own app, but the latter makes problems with dealing with the dialler the GSM chips whatever go away. It is FAR more important to provide the community with these tools than it is to provide any kind of application that utilises them (beyond a command-line version which gets numbers from a text-file and operates as a test example). Once these calls are available there will be dozens of PIM managers posted to this list and being written by enthusiastic Python programmers. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote: William Kenworthy wrote: Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage. Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :) Well, I don't really know what Akonadi is using, but when I installed it in my ubuntu build it was depending in mysql-client and mysql-server. Now, if mysql (with a server always running) is really needed I think that we can't use in our phone. From the tutorial below I get the impression that Akonadi can use more or less anything as a storage backend if you write the resource handler for it, and kdevelop has templates for these. Ubuntu, like most binary distributions, tends to pull in all sorts of things as dependencies that aren't strictly necessary. http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Akonadi/Resources ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I really welcome the 'back to basics' focus by OM. However, I'd echo what other people have said - for me, the 'basics', are ensuring that the phone works as a phone. My FR is sitting in my backpack, with my SIM in another phone - I missed several calls and wasn't able to make calls on several occasions because the FR got into a strange state and refused to make or answer calls. I missed other calls because the phone was suspended and didn't wake up quickly enough for me to answer the call before it went to voice mail. Then I stopped suspending the phone, and missed calls because my battery had died. I would *love* to go back to using my FR as my phone - but I can't do it until I'm confident that I'm not going to miss calls, and that I'll be able to make calls when I need to. For me, there are 2 'basics' that need to be met before addressing any other issues: 1: rock solid phone performance - making / receiving calls 2: enough battery life that I can make it through a working day without having to plug in the FR - this can be either through increasing the battery life, or by fixing suspend mode so that it's reliable and doesn't break #1. Until I'm convinced those items are addressed, my $400 FR is going to remain turned off in my backpack, and my friends who bought iPhones will continue to laugh at me for 'wasting' my money on such a 'phone'. *please* give me some ammunition to use against them! Warren On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 3:47 AM, John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: * Reduce boot time. * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage. * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python scripts. * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience. I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? The idea is * We improve the current stack, not creating new features. * Prefer stuffs which could be brought over to gta03 instead of gta02/om2008 specific. * won't work on om2007 stack. So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! :) Regards, John ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 19:54, Warren Baird [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Until I'm convinced those items are addressed, my $400 FR is going to remain turned off in my backpack, and my friends who bought iPhones will continue to laugh at me for 'wasting' my money on such a 'phone'. *please* give me some ammunition to use against them! Use the 2007.2, Luke! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:58:27 +0200 Johny Tenfinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 19:54, Warren Baird [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Until I'm convinced those items are addressed, my $400 FR is going to remain turned off in my backpack, and my friends who bought iPhones will continue to laugh at me for 'wasting' my money on such a 'phone'. *please* give me some ammunition to use against them! Use the 2007.2, Luke! Or if it's phone you want, try out the new QTextended. You'll like it. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 3:50 PM, Yogiz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or if it's phone you want, try out the new QTextended. You'll like it. I was using QTextended when I encountered the situations I described - it still doesn't seem to provide solid phone capabilities - the phone got in a mode where it wouldn't answer calls and I couldn't make outgoing calls. I agree that it's closer to provide a decent user experience, and the speed seems a lot better - but I really need to be able to reliably make and receive phone calls. Warren ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
The problem with some of the comments on images, are people not using the phone to the extend as others do. I need my phone, also for business reasons. I receive and send sms messages and also phone during driving a car and in crowded surroundings. There are also people praising an image after a 2 hour testrun. I also praised Qtopia 4.2 before someone started complaining about echo and missing some sms messages and the phone went in coma once in a while. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I must admit I never tried 2007.2 - but the things I read about it suggested that it also wasn't very stable - people recommended using Qtopia if you wanted a stable phone experience. Does 2007.2 really provide a rock-solid phone/sms experience? Warren On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Johny Tenfinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 19:54, Warren Baird [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Until I'm convinced those items are addressed, my $400 FR is going to remain turned off in my backpack, and my friends who bought iPhones will continue to laugh at me for 'wasting' my money on such a 'phone'. *please* give me some ammunition to use against them! Use the 2007.2, Luke! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Paul wrote: I agree. Having a solid functional phone is the prime objective. Paul I second this. Right now, I am frustrated because I miss probably half my calls because the phone freezes coming out of suspend. . . . shawn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
arne anka wrote: ==Pim device== imho that's exactly the kind of task openmoko did _not_ ask for. I would respectfully disagree - Openmoko asked about Improving user experience, and users are saying they want to experience PIM capabilities. there are a lot of posts lately completely ignoring the point of basics and no eyecandy I haven't seen anybody ask for pretty-looking PIM applications, people seem to be asking for *reliable* PIM applications. I'd call reliability and robustness basic. pim frinst is at it's best part of a middle tier, but rather of a particular distribution -- This kind of comes into the Should FSO merge be sped up? debate, as I believe the framework has PIM stuff built into it. and it's doable by community! Agreed, it could be done by the community, but I don't see anyone doing it, and I'm not smart enough, nor do I have the time at the moment. there are several task which require knowledge of the hardware and access to nda'ed docs, which in turn means they are best or exclusively solved by openmoko's limited forces. Agreed. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On 19 Oct 2008, at 13:46, Dale Maggee wrote: arne anka wrote: ==Pim device== imho that's exactly the kind of task openmoko did _not_ ask for. I would respectfully disagree - Openmoko asked about Improving user experience, and users are saying they want to experience PIM capabilities. ... and it's doable by community! Agreed, it could be done by the community, but I don't see anyone doing it, and I'm not smart enough, nor do I have the time at the moment. It does not matter whether YOU could do it or not. it's a matter of where Openmoko's resources are best spent. If you can't write a PIM app, then you CERTAINLY can't write kernel drivers - THAT is where Openmoko's resources should be mist focussed, IMO. As others have stated, there is some hardware-level stuff that only Openmoko has NDA for. And without working hardware drivers to ensure that phonecalls work flawlessly (and wifi, and bluetooth), a PIM is irrelevant. there are a lot of posts lately completely ignoring the point of basics and no eyecandy I haven't seen anybody ask for pretty-looking PIM applications, people seem to be asking for *reliable* PIM applications. I'd call reliability and robustness basic. Basic reliability and robustness resides in a program with which you can enter a number and make a call. Once that prototype exists it is much easier for the community to extend it to PIM functionality. Openmoko can then move on to wifi drivers, Glamo hardware acceleration and pairing of bluetooth headsets. pim frinst is at it's best part of a middle tier, but rather of a particular distribution -- This kind of comes into the Should FSO merge be sped up? debate, as I believe the framework has PIM stuff built into it. AIUI (and I would be delighted to be corrected if I'm wrong), the FSO stuff is intended to provide functions which will allow you to make simple DBUS calls such as get number $var from PIM manager and make call to number $var. Once these are complete, writing your own applications becomes easy. True the first of these example calls requests you integrate the functionality in your own app, but the latter makes problems with dealing with the dialler the GSM chips whatever go away. It is FAR more important to provide the community with these tools than it is to provide any kind of application that utilises them (beyond a command-line version which gets numbers from a text-file and operates as a test example). Once these calls are available there will be dozens of PIM managers posted to this list and being written by enthusiastic Python programmers. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 02:21:17PM +0100, Stroller wrote: ==Pim device== imho that's exactly the kind of task openmoko did _not_ ask for. I would respectfully disagree - Openmoko asked about Improving user experience, and users are saying they want to experience PIM capabilities. ... and it's doable by community! Agreed, it could be done by the community, but I don't see anyone doing it, and I'm not smart enough, nor do I have the time at the moment. It does not matter whether YOU could do it or not. it's a matter of where Openmoko's resources are best spent. If you can't write a PIM app, then you CERTAINLY can't write kernel drivers - THAT is where Openmoko's resources should be mist focussed, IMO. As others have stated, there is some hardware-level stuff that only Openmoko has NDA for. And without working hardware drivers to ensure that phonecalls work flawlessly (and wifi, and bluetooth), a PIM is irrelevant. All hail that. And I'd add that that work should've been done ages ago. Dear OpenMoko, please work on fixing those things only YOU[1] can adequately fix. [1] yes, we can also fix that, but without docs it's extremely harder Many hugs and thanks for the courage to be the only Free Software phone brand in the market. You deserve all my respect, but if you don't fix these reliability issues, I wouldn't bet on your longevity as an enterprise, and we'll all be that much more poorer :| Respect doesn't pay salaries, selling good phones does. I love my OpenMoko, but if I didn't love Free Software, I think I wouldn't be patient enough for all the problems :) Rui -- Or not. Today is Boomtime, the 73rd day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I am not a developer, but i test the images and try to use the openmoko... My main issue with Openmoko are : 1) Battery life : only 4hrs, and when you charge it, it discharge itself after a while. I cannot use it as a daily phone :/ 2) Basic telephony : the phone should wake up faster than it does now the time the phone wakes up, rings, and you pick the call, there has been 6 rings for the other party, and may already be on the voicemail 3)Basic text message should work flawlessly. 4) A way to set up the sound and rings ... There is actually no gui for that 5) I haven;t find yet where to activate the PIN or not... I put 1 sim card that asked for a pin, it work.. I put a another sim card, where no pin is needed.. it was still asking for a pin... (I had to reflash to solve this one) but there is no Menu where I could choose, Pin on/off, if pin on, set up the pin I do not care at all about any other application. I want a daily phone... where i can receive, make call, receive and send text message, and have the phone a day with me, wihotut having to cahrge it every 2 hrs... (8-10 hrs battery life would be better, with wifi on, gps off) Until we reach this point, I will continue tu use my dumb phone eeyday, and the FR will catch some dust on a shelve... Peace Philippe On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On 19 Oct 2008, at 13:46, Dale Maggee wrote: arne anka wrote: ==Pim device== imho that's exactly the kind of task openmoko did _not_ ask for. I would respectfully disagree - Openmoko asked about Improving user experience, and users are saying they want to experience PIM capabilities. ... and it's doable by community! Agreed, it could be done by the community, but I don't see anyone doing it, and I'm not smart enough, nor do I have the time at the moment. It does not matter whether YOU could do it or not. it's a matter of where Openmoko's resources are best spent. If you can't write a PIM app, then you CERTAINLY can't write kernel drivers - THAT is where Openmoko's resources should be mist focussed, IMO. As others have stated, there is some hardware-level stuff that only Openmoko has NDA for. And without working hardware drivers to ensure that phonecalls work flawlessly (and wifi, and bluetooth), a PIM is irrelevant. there are a lot of posts lately completely ignoring the point of basics and no eyecandy I haven't seen anybody ask for pretty-looking PIM applications, people seem to be asking for *reliable* PIM applications. I'd call reliability and robustness basic. Basic reliability and robustness resides in a program with which you can enter a number and make a call. Once that prototype exists it is much easier for the community to extend it to PIM functionality. Openmoko can then move on to wifi drivers, Glamo hardware acceleration and pairing of bluetooth headsets. pim frinst is at it's best part of a middle tier, but rather of a particular distribution -- This kind of comes into the Should FSO merge be sped up? debate, as I believe the framework has PIM stuff built into it. AIUI (and I would be delighted to be corrected if I'm wrong), the FSO stuff is intended to provide functions which will allow you to make simple DBUS calls such as get number $var from PIM manager and make call to number $var. Once these are complete, writing your own applications becomes easy. True the first of these example calls requests you integrate the functionality in your own app, but the latter makes problems with dealing with the dialler the GSM chips whatever go away. It is FAR more important to provide the community with these tools than it is to provide any kind of application that utilises them (beyond a command-line version which gets numbers from a text-file and operates as a test example). Once these calls are available there will be dozens of PIM managers posted to this list and being written by enthusiastic Python programmers. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Perhaps another idea to lighten the core developers' load... Invest a little time (a day or so?) to properly set up a VMWare image that can be downloaded by developers that want to help in any way. I'd much rather that the various parts of the system can be built by using tools available in distributions such as Debian testing. Stefan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Virtualized developer system (was Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience)
fre 2008-10-17 klockan 21:46 -0400 skrev Joel Newkirk: What would you want to be included in such an image, realistically?I have one currently with Ubuntu 8.04 jeos+XFCE, toolchain, qemu via mokomakefile, latest Enlightenemnt e17(as of three weeks ago, at least). This is a great setup - have you added info to the wiki on where one can download this image? / Fredrik signature.asc Description: Detta är en digitalt signerad meddelandedel ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On 2008.10.17.11.40, C?dric Berger wrote: | ex : to put phone in pocket. At the very least I must be able to immediatly | lock screen, but it should then be able to automatically go to sleep even if | screen keeps being touched (in pocket...). Wait time before blanking screen | / going to suspend should also be decreased when screen is locked. I noticed that my phone is always upside-down when in my pocket... so I was thinking that I'd have it suspend when upside-down :) --Brock ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote: Leonti Bielski wrote: But what about PIM stack? There is a project from GSOC, but it's either dead or just being developed really slow. What if some time OM is spending on ASU get to develop PIM stack for FSO? Or even make a 0.9 release of FSO even earlier as planned? This is what I'd like to write. But there's a think I'd like to remark here too (I've already said on the devel list), imho we should move to a PIM stack that is compatible with the Qtopia one not to break compatibility and support for multi-boot also from an high level application point of view. That PIM stack is quite good and accessible with easy instruments (practically all is done with a sqlite3 database, and the same can be easily doable with new python stack too). Imho this should be a key point. It's quite obvious that a good PIM stack is vital for a portable device. +1 to use the Qtopia sqlite3 database for the PIM (it may be a recommendation of the community) and develop one (or many) python stack outside of the low-level stack ( suspend/resume, GSM, GPRS, SMS, GPS, sounds, screen, accelerometers) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thursday 16 October 2008, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote: Imho this should be a key point. It's quite obvious that a good PIM stack is vital for a portable device. Have you considered using akonadi? The KDE guys are quite approachable and IMHO they have done their homework with akonadi. You should really talk to them before taking a decision regarding the PIM framework. Adapters for various existing frontends could be written quite easily AFAIK. Cheers, Florian -- DI Florian Hackenberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hackenberger.at ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
My 1/50th of a dollar... A lot of people have made some really good points and suggestions here. Here's what I'd like to see personally, in order of priority, with absolutely no consideration given to feasability or difficulty what I want ;) : 1. rock-solid phone / sms functionality, with rock-solid suspend and resume. I know that these are two seperate issues, but I see Suspend and resume as being a neccessary part of having it work as a daily-use, reliable phone (for the simple reason of battery life). Having it as a solid, daily-use phone is my biggest priority. 2. This also comes into the 'daily use phone' category: the echo / volume issues. Since settings which work for some people don't seem to work for others, I think that one way to sort this out might be to create a sensibly-labelled volume control (preferrably as a finger-usable GUI) which has the ability to load and store states. This has been suggested elsewhere 3. Sort out the Distros / Software stack. I agree with the comments that the FSO integration should be sped up. FSO seems very nice and solid to me, but unfortunately it's incomplete in terms of using it as a phone. The PIM database is the biggest thing missing here. I think that bringing the FSO framework into the main distro should be a priority, because this will allow you guys to organise your efforts better and remove duplication - why continue to work on something that's going to be phased out in X months? 4. Calendar / Alarm / PIM. I'd call this 'secondary phone functionality', in that it's the kind of functionality you see in pretty much any phone out there. A Reliable calendar application which lets you set meetings, reminders etc, and an alarm. The alarms / reminder alerts should work reliably, even if the Neo is suspended (i.e: come out of suspend mode to sound alarm or show a reminder). With regards to PIM, I'd like to see a way to synchronise my Neo's PIM database with some other source, like ActiveSync does. This doesn't have to be incredibly complicated, maybe just dumping the PIM database to a vcf file. The reason I want this is that whenever I flash a new distro I need to re-import my contacts, and I inevitably lose contacts which I've added to the Neo but which aren't anywhere else. Perhaps there's already a solution to this. 5. Pretty comes later. Stop caring about themes and snazzy visual effects. While everyone can agree that pretty is a nice thing, Stability should be the priority, not prettiness. Don't bother making themes and whatnot, just make the underlying software work reliably, then provide a way for us to make our own themes, and let the community worry about making themes. Once everything is solid, then you can worry about how pretty it is. Regards, -Dale John Lee wrote: Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: * Reduce boot time. * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage. * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python scripts. * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience. I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? The idea is * We improve the current stack, not creating new features. * Prefer stuffs which could be brought over to gta03 instead of gta02/om2008 specific. * won't work on om2007 stack. So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! :) Regards, John ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Also if I don't use KDE, I'd like to see akonadi as Pim managed... Our mission must to be to don't replicate the work done by other people, and KDE person did a good job Florian Hackenberger wrote: On Thursday 16 October 2008, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote: Imho this should be a key point. It's quite obvious that a good PIM stack is vital for a portable device. Have you considered using akonadi? The KDE guys are quite approachable and IMHO they have done their homework with akonadi. You should really talk to them before taking a decision regarding the PIM framework. Adapters for various existing frontends could be written quite easily AFAIK. Cheers, Florian ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
2008/10/16 John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: * Reduce boot time. Low priority, if the phone is stable users may suspend/resume and reboot rarely. * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage. Medium priority * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python scripts. My two cents, low priority a 400 Mhz CPU is actually suffering for a lot of staff coded in Python? I do not like to see other os based device flying with the same CPU or lower. * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience. High priority. I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? The high priority is to have a rock stable kernel with perfect suspend/resume cycles. This will affect *all* distro and external efforts. Qtopia will be more stable with this, and the phone will be ready for a daily use soon. The second high priority step is to enhance FSO team and resources, we are all waiting for a 1.0 rock version. As openmoko resources and peoples are not infinite, and as the above two steps requires high knowledge and insider vision, those should be the focus for *Openmoko official stuff*. With a rock solid kernel/fso community may contribute easily in writing applications. Drive the community or allocate some resource to define/project/analize and may be code a definitive Dialer for FSO or show your plan, actual docs says that zhone is only a test application for FSO, paroli is an obscure project. Stop asu and qtopia on x11 development, it's only a waste of time, our FR are multi-boot capable so Qtopia may help peoples waiting for all that. Merge the tree back to oe, and ask them to do a new stable branch if org.openembedded.dev development is too fast! Best Regards Nicola ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 20:20, Stefan Monnier [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Suspend is quite good at the moment, but when the display is 'blanked' and the system is not in suspend, maybe pressing the 'power' button could wake up the screen instead. Now it wakes up and immediately suspends. 100% agreement. The suspend on power button is completely useless for me. The machine suspends automatically anyway, so I don't need to waste the precious few buttons we have on rare operations like explicitly request the machine to go to sleep. I do not agree here, it is an important use case for me to easily force suspend. ex : to put phone in pocket. At the very least I must be able to immediatly lock screen, but it should then be able to automatically go to sleep even if screen keeps being touched (in pocket...). Wait time before blanking screen / going to suspend should also be decreased when screen is locked. With my dumb day to day phone, there no real suspend, but I can immediatly lock it via a long press to '#'. I do not have to look at the screen to do that, and once it is locked it quickly shut off screen backlight. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Hi all, My thoughts on this (as a software dev that hasn't yet got into the freerunner software development, despite best intentions) - 1. Basic phone functions: It needs to work as a phone, currently it doesn't wake up from suspend in time for more than 2 rings before the other party is diverted to voicemail. The sound quality is terrible and usually echos back at the other party. 2. Battery life: The battery in the gta02 is not a small capacity battery, far from it in fact, why does it only last a few hours? At best I get about 12 hours out of it. 3. Stability Resuming from suspend sometimes just doesn't happen, and nothing I do wakes it up. Given 2 and 3, a quicker boot time would be nice, but if we could fix the things that mean I have to boot it so often it would be helpful. The only other thing that springs to mind is that it would also be good if the settings (screen brightness etc) were stored somewhere so I don't have to redo them every boot. As far as I'm concerned, anything else is just candy. Other functions (GPS, GPRS, WiFi etc etc) would be nice and should be expected as part of any decent phone package, but right now the absolute basics (and I mean absolute basics) need work. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Back-to-the-basics%3A-improving-user-experience-tp1340253p1344713.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage. Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :) BillK On Fri, 2008-10-17 at 09:53 +0200, Florian Hackenberger wrote: On Thursday 16 October 2008, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote: Imho this should be a key point. It's quite obvious that a good PIM stack is vital for a portable device. Have you considered using akonadi? The KDE guys are quite approachable and IMHO they have done their homework with akonadi. You should really talk to them before taking a decision regarding the PIM framework. Adapters for various existing frontends could be written quite easily AFAIK. Cheers, Florian -- William Kenworthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home in Perth! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
PIM software (was: Back to the basics: improving user experience)
William Kenworthy: Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage. Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :) Yes, the do indeed use MySQL! Regards, Mark Weinem ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 03:54:47AM -0700, Gothnet wrote: Given 2 and 3, a quicker boot time would be nice, but if we could fix the things that mean I have to boot it so often it would be helpful. I can't help much in the other things we'd all like to happen, but after a cursory (and cursing) introspection through the rcS.d and rc5.d scripts, I saw lots of room for improvement. As I get home after work I'll get back to completing my timestamping of scripts to get a gist of where are easy, hard and impossible wins. One easy win: WTF is xserver-nodm recursively calling itself (only one step of recursion but 2s are lost in it) Rui -- All Hail Discordia! Today is Setting Orange, the 71st day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Perhaps another idea to lighten the core developers' load... Invest a little time (a day or so?) to properly set up a VMWare image that can be downloaded by developers that want to help in any way. Make it easy to update sources, and easy to build both kernel and userland stuff, and also to report patches. This way, developers don't need to invest loads of time into setting up stuff, if it can be done in one fell swoop. I, for one, would love to be able to run a VMWare image and dive into developing and debugging/enhancing. Christ van Willegen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I think the phone is getting quite usable, and well there is a long road ahead I don't think anybody should feel bad about how far it has come. Recent post on engadget re: RIM's Bold. ptrcd003 @ Oct 17th 2008 1:08AM tell me about it. Crappy GPS that rarely, if ever, works (triangulation never works unless you download google maps) . Constant spinning clock, sometimes preventing me from answering calls for up to 5 minutes. Totally unstable OS (have missed class due to alarm clock app crashing during the night). The browser is also relatively slow, and the build quality should be much higher for a phone of this price (sides creak, back cover moves around.) This isn't a single occurence, my friend has the same phone with the same problems. So be glad it isn't out in the States yet, maybe they're actually planning to fix these things. If it wasn't for the amazing email capabilities, i'd go back to the iPhone 3G in a heartbeat -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vasco Névoa Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 11:58 AM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience I can see there are at least 2 distinct types of user of OM: A - I need a working phone now, the uber-cool PDA stuff can wait; B - OM is a groundbreaking project, I don't care about telephony, let's press the revolution! As much as I am divided among the two views, I think OM must oblige to its responsibility towards the users who have paid for their hardware, and keep its promise of a working phone. I don't think that making the core system work (including a little hacking of the Qtopia stuff) is a waste of time; any insight that is gained here can immediately be applied to FSO. OM2008.x will simply serve as a real-world testbed (one that is everyday usable!). When FSO comes along, it will already have the necessary corrections... Citando Didier Raboud [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Vasco Névoa wrote: I agree with you partly; the main efforts should go into getting the new framework out - *as long as it runs on a rock-solid core system*. So I support the idea of accelerating the FSO integration... but in the meantime people have to use the sucking Qtopia ware in their everyday life, because there is no realistic alternative. FSO is still very incomplete at the user level. Today, the complete system is not reliable and the reliable system is not complete at all. If you fix the core and qtopia now, everybody gets a working phone, and FSO gets a more reliable development core. You favor the users, which are the noisier people. ;) If you jump start FSO into main distro, there will still not exist a complete system that can be used everyday. You favor the developers, who could wait a little more (but not long!) and ARE ALSO USERS. So please just make it work solidly, and then integrate FSO. :) Well... I would rather let a bit more freedom to the team : if you (as in the team which will make the iFoan obsolete) think that breaking useability or functionality or anything else could serve the cause : do it ! Please decide your roadmap and make it public ! I (personnally) don't care if I am not able to use my Neo as a phone (and anything else possible) for 2-3-4-5 months : I have a working phone. BUT, what I would like to know is _when_ I will get _what_ functionality. I you think that breaking the whole stuff for a moment will serve a precise goal, please do it ! Regards, OdyX -- Swisslinux.org - Le carrefour GNU/Linux en Suisse - http://www.swisslinux.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Christ van Willegen wrote: Perhaps another idea to lighten the core developers' load... Invest a little time (a day or so?) to properly set up a VMWare image that can be downloaded by developers that want to help in any way. Make it easy to update sources, and easy to build both kernel and userland stuff, and also to report patches. This way, developers don't need to invest loads of time into setting up stuff, if it can be done in one fell swoop. I, for one, would love to be able to run a VMWare image and dive into developing and debugging/enhancing. Christ van Willegen s/VMWare/qemu (or kvm)/g qemu is more free in my opinion... ;) Regards, OdyX -- Swisslinux.org − Le carrefour GNU/Linux en Suisse − http://www.swisslinux.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: PIM software (was: Back to the basics: improving user experience)
Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage. Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :) Yes, the do indeed use MySQL! well, if it is supposed to be a part of kde, the use case is clearly a desktop computer. i don't think it would fit a small thing like the neo. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: PIM software (was: Back to the basics: improving user experience)
Am Freitag 17 Oktober 2008 14:13:28 schrieb arne anka: Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage. Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :) Yes, the do indeed use MySQL! well, if it is supposed to be a part of kde, the use case is clearly a desktop computer. i don't think it would fit a small thing like the neo. would be great if the KDE guys develop their system beyond the obsolete Desktop- my sister for example uses a mini netbook as her main desktop machine. Desktop systems should be equally usable and funcional on small devices as on powerful machines. Greetings, Mark ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: PIM software (was: Back to the basics: improving user experience)
On Friday 17 October 2008 14:43:06 Mark Weinem wrote: Am Freitag 17 Oktober 2008 14:13:28 schrieb arne anka: Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage. Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :) Yes, the do indeed use MySQL! well, if it is supposed to be a part of kde, the use case is clearly a desktop computer. i don't think it would fit a small thing like the neo. would be great if the KDE guys develop their system beyond the obsolete Desktop- my sister for example uses a mini netbook as her main desktop machine. Desktop systems should be equally usable and funcional on small devices as on powerful machines. And fortunately that is exaclty what some of us are working on. As part of this years google summer of code I've done some initial work on running kde on really small devices (openmoko neo1973 (too slow), freerunner (quite acceptable), and nokia n810 (similar to freerunner)). Of course speed and memory usage aren't the only problems, a much bigger problem is adapting the user interface to work well on small screens, but there is also some work going on in that area. About akonadi, I don't think mysql is the only available storage backend, and the main reasons they chose it as the default after evaluation several options aren't really valid on small devices anyway (problems with concurrent access/transactions/... I think, which shouldn't happen as much on a small device as on a powerful computer). Marijn Kruisselbrink ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: PIM software (was: Back to the basics: improving user experience)
El día Friday, October 17, 2008 a las 02:43:06PM +0200, Mark Weinem escribió: Am Freitag 17 Oktober 2008 14:13:28 schrieb arne anka: Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage. Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :) Yes, the do indeed use MySQL! well, if it is supposed to be a part of kde, the use case is clearly a desktop computer. i don't think it would fit a small thing like the neo. would be great if the KDE guys develop their system beyond the obsolete Desktop- my sister for example uses a mini netbook as her main desktop machine. Desktop systems should be equally usable and funcional on small devices as on powerful machines. I'm using for my daily business as a head of a development department a Fujitsu-Siemens laptop with FreeBSD 7.0 and KDE 3.5.8 (including OpenOffice 3.0beta); I cloned this system binary (i.e. made packages of what I have installed on this laptop) to a Asus netbook eeePC 900 to have the same suite of tools with me while walking around in my spare time; this is working just fine; and the FR is the ideal gadget to complete the eeePC to have it as a GPRS router to Internet, cellphone, etc. here you have a picture of both: http://www.unixarea.de/20081003-173025.jpg I've already returned my old BenQ cellphone to my company and I'm fully depending on the FR, which I think is stable enough to rely on it; matthias -- Matthias Apitz Manager Technical Support - OCLC GmbH Gruenwalder Weg 28g - 82041 Oberhaching - Germany t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211 e [EMAIL PROTECTED] - w http://www.oclc.org/ http://www.UnixArea.de/ b http://gurucubano.blogspot.com/ A computer is like an air conditioner, it stops working when you open Windows Una computadora es como aire acondicionado, deja de funcionar si abres Windows ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
To Rui and all others interested in bootime improvement: A bootchart is available at: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Alessandro -- Minh HA DUONG, Chargé de Recherche, CNRS CIRED, Centre International de Recherches sur l'Environnement et le Développement http://minh.haduong.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Minh Ha Duong schrieb: To Rui and all others interested in bootime improvement: A bootchart is available at: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Alessandro i disabled my boot splash screen that saved me 10 seconds of boot time. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Have you thought about applying any of the fast-boot mods that were slashdotted recently? One thing that killed the boot time of desktop linux was the usb subsystem. OM is probally doing the similar things. http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/02/1933206from=rss -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Minh Ha Duong Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 9:36 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience To Rui and all others interested in bootime improvement: A bootchart is available at: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Alessandro -- Minh HA DUONG, Chargé de Recherche, CNRS CIRED, Centre International de Recherches sur l'Environnement et le Développement http://minh.haduong.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
William Kenworthy wrote: Did a quick google but couldnt figure out what it uses as storage. Hopefully not a relational database - they have their uses and qtopia has conclusively proven this is *NOT* it :) Well, I don't really know what Akonadi is using, but when I installed it in my ubuntu build it was depending in mysql-client and mysql-server. Now, if mysql (with a server always running) is really needed I think that we can't use in our phone. -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:48 AM, Dale Maggee [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: 2. This also comes into the 'daily use phone' category: the echo / volume issues. Since settings which work for some people don't seem to work for others, I think that one way to sort this out might be to create a sensibly-labelled volume control (preferrably as a finger-usable GUI) which has the ability to load and store states. This has been suggested elsewhere You could try pymixer. It's a little crude but should work for you. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_Freerunner_audio_subsystem#Volume_Control -- Angus Ainslie http://www.handheldshell.com/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
==Pim device== I would like to use my FR as a PIM device, managing my communications, events and so on. So this is my main issue as a user. Another thing that could improve the user experience would be a PC utility to manage the device: - ability to know the charge level from PC; - easy file sharing; - shared notifications; - install apps via PC; - sync contacts infos; - sync calendars and to-do lists; - sync communications (SMSs, emails, conversations, ecc.). Every other thing is quite acceptable to me (as long as I stay with qtextended). But such kind of utlity could help to easily try and switch between different distros -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Back-to-the-basics%3A-improving-user-experience-tp1340253p1345583.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
==Pim device== imho that's exactly the kind of task openmoko did _not_ ask for. there are a lot of posts lately completely ignoring the point of basics and no eyecandy -- if the list in the wiki develops the same way it's plain useless. pim frinst is at it's best part of a middle tier, but rather of a particular distribution -- and it's doable by community! there are several task which require knowledge of the hardware and access to nda'ed docs, which in turn means they are best or exclusively solved by openmoko's limited forces. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: PIM software (was: Back to the basics: improving user experience)
On Fri, 2008-10-17 at 14:02 +0200, Mark Weinem wrote: Yes, the do indeed use MySQL! The follow-up question to that is: Does it really _need_ MySQL, or does it just use the convenience of an SQL back-end? If it just needs SQL, then it could be altered to use SQLite. If it requires MySQL, then it may be more work to port to SQLite than to make something new. To me, the fact that there are so many PIM projects for Linux means two things: 1) It's fun to write one, and 2) Everyone has their own (possibly incompatible) requirements for what a PIM stack should do. I can see how it would be fun to write one, but with all the existing ones (EDS, various KDE-based ones, GPE, QTopia, etc.) I don't really want to. Plus I'm still fighting with building an OpenMoko environment (Fighting with MokoMakefile on a Fedora 8 box). But I do agree that there is a strong need for PIM functions on the phone. I also think it's something we as the community can do while leaving the Core Developers free to work on their stated projects. I would like some guidance from the folks at FreeSmartPhone.org (Since FSO is supposed to define a PIM API) but thus far it doesn't look like anything has been written about it yet. Ideally what I'd like to see is a front-end and back-end APIs for the PIM functions, so those who really like one PIM server or another (See above-mentioned ones) can plug-in whatever they like (Possibly with a shim that translates it for the FSO API). -KW ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: PIM software (was: Back to the basics: improving user experience)
I used kdepimpi on my Linux Zaurus and found it very full-featured. I primarily used the datebook app. I keep hoping someone with more skill and time than I will port it to FR. It was built on top of Qtopia so it shouldn't be that formidable a task. -- Craig ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Virtualized developer system (was Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience)
On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:10:12 +0200, Christ van Willegen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps another idea to lighten the core developers' load... Invest a little time (a day or so?) to properly set up a VMWare image that can be downloaded by developers that want to help in any way. Make it easy to update sources, and easy to build both kernel and userland stuff, and also to report patches. This way, developers don't need to invest loads of time into setting up stuff, if it can be done in one fell swoop. I, for one, would love to be able to run a VMWare image and dive into developing and debugging/enhancing. Christ van Willegen What would you want to be included in such an image, realistically?I have one currently with Ubuntu 8.04 jeos+XFCE, toolchain, qemu via mokomakefile, latest Enlightenemnt e17(as of three weeks ago, at least). There was a thread here about 18 days ago entitled 'Developer environment suggestion'. Two things suggested in that thread that I've not yet done are bitbake (I've used mokomakefile strictly to build the qemu gta01 emulation so far) and eclipse. I was hoping to have the setup polished and posted somewhere by now... :( j ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Back to the basics: improving user experience
Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: * Reduce boot time. * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage. * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python scripts. * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience. I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? The idea is * We improve the current stack, not creating new features. * Prefer stuffs which could be brought over to gta03 instead of gta02/om2008 specific. * won't work on om2007 stack. So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! :) Regards, John ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 9:47 AM, John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! Speed, speed, speed... If I compare the current user experience to the iPhone (*phtuey*) one, I prefer the iPhone. I don't have one, and don't plan on getting one, but it appears to be much faster then the Neo any day. Program response should be lots better. Startup time reducing for apps would be great. Boot time, maybe, I don't (plan on) doing that too much. Suspend is quite good at the moment, but when the display is 'blanked' and the system is not in suspend, maybe pressing the 'power' button could wake up the screen instead. Now it wakes up and immediately suspends. And, as arne says, having a faster screen response would be nice, as well... Christ van Willegen -- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: * Reduce boot time. * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage. * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python scripts. * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience. I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? My vote is stuff that enables me as a client developer to develop code and only have myself to blame for bugs. Here are my desired clients I want to develop: - Emacs phone services on top of dbus - touch and accellerometer based gui for nearly blind people - funky gui that changes every week for teenagers(Ok, I dont really want to develop this but i'd like to have it) The Emacs ui would be geared towards myself and wouldnt need to be very robust. The other ui:s must be completely failsafe. Here battery life and reliability is essential. The idea is * We improve the current stack, not creating new features. * Prefer stuffs which could be brought over to gta03 instead of gta02/om2008 specific. * won't work on om2007 stack. So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! :) Regards, John -- Joakim Verona ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 11:08 +0200, arne anka wrote: I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? accelerated x-driver! since the specs for the glamo are subject to an nda, nobody else can ... We have an accelerated X driver, do you mean add more features? I am going to be working on improving the Xglamo as much as I can in the future. But I won't get to that task immediately. Graeme ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
W.Kenworthy schrieb: It often takes several boots before the pin dialog comes up. If you forget while waiting and it does come up but its awhile until you get to it, it will hang so you have to reboot anyway. Sometimes restarting X helps, but not always don't know if you already optimized your /opt/Qtopia/etc/default/Trolltech/*Storage.conf * file. But that helped me a lot with the pin dialog. http://openmoko.markmail.org/search/?q=Storage.conf+pin#query:Storage.conf%20pin+page:1+mid:dzsa4by46vnvfa2r+state:results i didn't disable the hole media card like it is in the thread. i just disabled Applications and Removable ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! In my opinion, the buttons and LED are critical parts of the user-experience. They are still not consistent and reliable enough. Quick test: can _you_ tell what the various colours and light / blinking states mean ? References: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FreeRunner/Buttons_and_LEDs https://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FreeRunner_LED_signals Thanks for your consideration, Minh ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 05:15:59PM +0800, W.Kenworthy wrote: 2008.9 + updates A phone that works: reliably make and receive calls reliably make and receive sms's At the moment, totally losing sms messages (phone sometimes hangs/crashes when one comes in) or not waking up if suspended when one comes in means that its almost unusable as a phone. It often takes several boots before the pin dialog comes up. If you forget while waiting and it does come up but its awhile until you get to it, it will hang so you have to reboot anyway. Sometimes restarting X helps, but not always Stability: My average in normal usage is at least two boots a day due to crashes, and often extra rebooting to check if an sms comes in (sometimes they will only show on fresh re-registration. Leaving the phone on and registered for hours doesnt seem to help - not sure how vodafone australia takes to retry messages but surely its less that 12 hours. The only way to stop crashes is not to use the thing! No GPS, no wireless, no phone calls, and definitely never send/receive an sms :) I suspect the event/0 thread is at the root of a lot of this so I am waiting a fix for that. I dont think I am alone in this - hopefully the new focus means that these issues can be dealt with. I am a little concerned though that you think things like boot time is important enough to mention, but not basic issues like being able to reliably make a phone call. Though a faster boot means less time wasted going through multiple bootups to get the thing registered. :) I would like to explain a bit more about this: We're not the only team that will work on the new focus. Stability should be greatly improved by the effort of FSO, and boot time is just another thing we would also like to improve. At the same time, we will work on fixing qtopia bugs as well, so if the problems you have is in trac already, we will look into them. - John ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Why Qtopia? I prefer that you release the next minor update ( aka 2008.10 ) and focus all works on paroli and tichy. The new framework is pretty usable and stable. 2008/10/16 John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 05:15:59PM +0800, W.Kenworthy wrote: 2008.9 + updates A phone that works: reliably make and receive calls reliably make and receive sms's At the moment, totally losing sms messages (phone sometimes hangs/crashes when one comes in) or not waking up if suspended when one comes in means that its almost unusable as a phone. It often takes several boots before the pin dialog comes up. If you forget while waiting and it does come up but its awhile until you get to it, it will hang so you have to reboot anyway. Sometimes restarting X helps, but not always Stability: My average in normal usage is at least two boots a day due to crashes, and often extra rebooting to check if an sms comes in (sometimes they will only show on fresh re-registration. Leaving the phone on and registered for hours doesnt seem to help - not sure how vodafone australia takes to retry messages but surely its less that 12 hours. The only way to stop crashes is not to use the thing! No GPS, no wireless, no phone calls, and definitely never send/receive an sms :) I suspect the event/0 thread is at the root of a lot of this so I am waiting a fix for that. I dont think I am alone in this - hopefully the new focus means that these issues can be dealt with. I am a little concerned though that you think things like boot time is important enough to mention, but not basic issues like being able to reliably make a phone call. Though a faster boot means less time wasted going through multiple bootups to get the thing registered. :) I would like to explain a bit more about this: We're not the only team that will work on the new focus. Stability should be greatly improved by the effort of FSO, and boot time is just another thing we would also like to improve. At the same time, we will work on fixing qtopia bugs as well, so if the problems you have is in trac already, we will look into them. - John ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Prioritized: 1 - Solve the call quality problems (echo, buzzing, volume) for 99% of the users. 2 - Solve the illume resume problems. They have been talked about over and over, but unfortunately the information is scattered and imprecise. the tickets themselves have misleading info (I should know, I helped confuse you...), so maybe this deserves a new single ticket, where everyone contributes with more exact information; 3 - Get the wifi driver corrected, so that it does not create link association and stability and problems; 4 - Finish/validate implementation of the networking stack (all the way up to resolv.conf and friends); 5 - Merge the GPRS muxer into the stable distro, so that it works out of the box; 6 - Integrate the main applications with the power management: if QPE wants to index the whole friggin' filesystem right after boot, then give it time to do so before going into suspend; if you don't, it just bogs down the CPU for many suspend/resume cycles, creating all sorts of problems, and we don't know what is going on... 7 - Accelerate Qt applications - they respond so slowly that a normal user will shoot itself in the foot everyday (i.e. pushing the Answer button twice because it didn't appear to respond, effectively killing the call; or taking the phone to the ear after pushing Answer and having it rind loudly one last time in the ear); 8 - Work with the people of FDOM to integrate the best workarounds and hacks - they did the work already, just use it. 9 - Get all the bluetooth support organized out-of-the-box. I haven't played with it in a long time, but it looked like black voodoo to get a simple pairing and OBEX exchange going... forget about PAN!... 10 - Put a speaker button on the dialer app. This is my only GUI desire for now... +5, Insightful Meaning, I second, third and fourth the recommendation. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
2008.9 + updates A phone that works: reliably make and receive calls reliably make and receive sms's At the moment, totally losing sms messages (phone sometimes hangs/crashes when one comes in) or not waking up if suspended when one comes in means that its almost unusable as a phone. It often takes several boots before the pin dialog comes up. If you forget while waiting and it does come up but its awhile until you get to it, it will hang so you have to reboot anyway. Sometimes restarting X helps, but not always Stability: My average in normal usage is at least two boots a day due to crashes, and often extra rebooting to check if an sms comes in (sometimes they will only show on fresh re-registration. Leaving the phone on and registered for hours doesnt seem to help - not sure how vodafone australia takes to retry messages but surely its less that 12 hours. The only way to stop crashes is not to use the thing! No GPS, no wireless, no phone calls, and definitely never send/receive an sms :) I suspect the event/0 thread is at the root of a lot of this so I am waiting a fix for that. I dont think I am alone in this - hopefully the new focus means that these issues can be dealt with. I am a little concerned though that you think things like boot time is important enough to mention, but not basic issues like being able to reliably make a phone call. Though a faster boot means less time wasted going through multiple bootups to get the thing registered. :) I should mention that 2007.2 seemed more stable and mature than 2008 anything still is up until work stopped on it. BillK On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 15:47 +0800, John Lee wrote: Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: * Reduce boot time. * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage. * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python scripts. * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience. I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? The idea is * We improve the current stack, not creating new features. * Prefer stuffs which could be brought over to gta03 instead of gta02/om2008 specific. * won't work on om2007 stack. So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! :) Regards, John ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Cant agree with this. They are bugs, but none are urgent issues and few affect a users basic needs - to be able to make phone calls and SMS's This is where OM lost the plot - it looks pretty, but doesnt work. Standing joke where I work (there are two of us neo owners - the other was thinking of selling though) Whats the difference between an iphone and a neo - one looks pretty and works, one looks pretty and doesnt work ... qtopia is what people are using NOW, and will for many months yet as far as I can see. There seem to be only a few issues with its basic functionality- fix them so its at least usable - please! BillK On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 04:49 -0700, Alasal wrote: I agree, we don't have to spend developer time on things that are going away. (So please don't fix qtopia) And here are the bugs that should be solved (My opinion): LANSCAPE http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1244: Landscape mode must work good, also for glamo http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1961: Going into landscape mode must be smooth http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1336: Landscape mode shouldn't shift the screen by 160px http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1381: Let libsdl spit out the correct mouse coordinations WIFI http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1860: Give the wifi driver more love http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1902: Make the wifi work with one-character long ESSID http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/2030: Let the wifi also connect with WEP networks VARIA http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1158: Charger shouldn't stop charging when it's still connected http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1024: Fix the gsm reregistering issue. (Only if it's not qtopia related) http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1718: Finally fix the python-pygtk program http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1267: Fix the echo problem http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1802: Don't let the partition table of the sd card be corrupted http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1597: Don't let cpu do nothing and still eating 30% http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1315: Keep xglamo at the same performance http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1841: Solve the WSOD, so openmoko isn't the next windows Neil Jerram wrote: I agree that you should not spend time on Qtopia. Even though I use Qtopia most of the time, I would prefer you to focus all your efforts on the lower levels (up to and including the FSO dbus interfaces) until they are rock solid. Neil -- William Kenworthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home in Perth! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 15:47 +0800, John Lee wrote: Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: * Reduce boot time. * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage. * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python scripts. * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience. I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? Definately a working WiFi driver (the current one is half-working only, just have a look at opened bug reports). Generally more working low-level stuff. Thanks, Xav ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Nope, thats a furphy - made the alterations, two boots so far and no pin dialog ... Took the SD card out and the pin popped up - twice Put the SD card back in and no PIN dialog. I have an 8G card as 2 partitions. On p1 I have a single file while on p2 I have tangogps maps - but p2 isnt indexed as far as I can see, so they should not affect it and qpe doesnt show as being busy in task list. The alterations suggested below had been done. Could it be an issue related to SD cards rather than QPE? BillK On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 11:39 +0100, Vasco Névoa wrote: An important note to the people who are experiencing all-round instability: I haven't had many problems with phone calls or SMS. I believe the critical point was to disable QPE's file search upon bootup [1]. Before I did that, I had all kinds of mysterious problems (including PIN), derived from the fact that the Neo's CPU was starving for cycles. To make matters worse, it would suspend before the indexing job was done, and so the Neo would not have enough CPU power to correctly process incoming calls and messages when it resumed. After disabling that QPE stuff, it basically works. [1]: http://n2.nabble.com/No-pin-dialog--qpe-tp685679p685679.html Citando John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I agree with you partly; the main efforts should go into getting the new framework out - *as long as it runs on a rock-solid core system*. So I support the idea of accelerating the FSO integration... but in the meantime people have to use the sucking Qtopia ware in their everyday life, because there is no realistic alternative. FSO is still very incomplete at the user level. Today, the complete system is not reliable and the reliable system is not complete at all. If you fix the core and qtopia now, everybody gets a working phone, and FSO gets a more reliable development core. You favor the users, which are the noisier people. ;) If you jump start FSO into main distro, there will still not exist a complete system that can be used everyday. You favor the developers, who could wait a little more (but not long!) and ARE ALSO USERS. So please just make it work solidly, and then integrate FSO. :) Citando Neil Jerram [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/10/16 Riccardo Centra [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why Qtopia? I prefer that you release the next minor update ( aka 2008.10 ) and focus all works on paroli and tichy. The new framework is pretty usable and stable. I agree that you should not spend time on Qtopia. Even though I use Qtopia most of the time, I would prefer you to focus all your efforts on the lower levels (up to and including the FSO dbus interfaces) until they are rock solid. Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Vasco Névoa wrote: I agree with you partly; the main efforts should go into getting the new framework out - *as long as it runs on a rock-solid core system*. So I support the idea of accelerating the FSO integration... but in the meantime people have to use the sucking Qtopia ware in their everyday life, because there is no realistic alternative. FSO is still very incomplete at the user level. Today, the complete system is not reliable and the reliable system is not complete at all. If you fix the core and qtopia now, everybody gets a working phone, and FSO gets a more reliable development core. You favor the users, which are the noisier people. ;) If you jump start FSO into main distro, there will still not exist a complete system that can be used everyday. You favor the developers, who could wait a little more (but not long!) and ARE ALSO USERS. So please just make it work solidly, and then integrate FSO. :) Well... I would rather let a bit more freedom to the team : if you (as in the team which will make the iFoan obsolete) think that breaking useability or functionality or anything else could serve the cause : do it ! Please decide your roadmap and make it public ! I (personnally) don't care if I am not able to use my Neo as a phone (and anything else possible) for 2-3-4-5 months : I have a working phone. BUT, what I would like to know is _when_ I will get _what_ functionality. I you think that breaking the whole stuff for a moment will serve a precise goal, please do it ! Regards, OdyX -- Swisslinux.org − Le carrefour GNU/Linux en Suisse − http://www.swisslinux.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
El jue, 16-10-2008 a las 15:47 +0800, John Lee escribió: Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: * Reduce boot time. ok * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage. for me is quite good right now but any improvement are welcome * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python scripts. YES PLEASE :) this will allow script kiddies like me to help in high level development and utilities on the phone * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience. yes, I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? The idea is * We improve the current stack, not creating new features. ok, there a lot of thirparty apps out there than can provide new features, but they need a rock solid base to be totally cool * Prefer stuffs which could be brought over to gta03 instead of gta02/om2008 specific. Not totally agree here, some(a lot of) effort must be done in current specific gta02 , a clear example is the famous glamo chipset, you are the only ones who can improve it due NDA as some one else has pointed, you must struggle(even more) this chipset to extract until the last drop of it juice. * won't work on om2007 stack. Better make efforts on FSO So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! :) just work on the basics as you have pointed, and the basic is all hardware must work without any blocking bug(alas stability) and inside this stability do it as fast as phisicaly posible. Fancy apps will come from the community and porting from other distros, thats the magic on free source :) Regards, John ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I was wondering about one thing: When we talk about FR as phone every one wants it to by light speed fast (instant calls, sms and so one), but when you think about FR as ultramobile PC capable of playing games, movies and so one our response time expectations are much lower. So maybe we could make one big(ger) app (remember that there is quite big amount of ram there) responsible for calling, contacts, sms and all that phonny stuff and keep it all the time in memory with all needed library (static build?) and maybe even higher priority - result: no loading, no waiting = instant phone functionality. you want to play some games? sorry you have to wait (which is acceptable). ps. this approach could also apply to some basic settings. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Back-to-the-basics%3A-improving-user-experience-tp1340253p1340779.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
As a user that switches between Debian, Qtopia, and om2008, I urge you to focus on improving areas that could benefit all distributions. I don't understand the technical dependencies, but I get the impression that Lorn and the Debian folks rely on some form of Openmoko development. Just as an example, suspend/resume continues to be a problem for me across all three distros. Also, the point someone made about working on stuff that's restricted under NDA seems valid. Thank you for your continued work It is appreciated, Aliasid On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 3:47 AM, John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: * Reduce boot time. * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage. * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python scripts. * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience. I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? The idea is * We improve the current stack, not creating new features. * Prefer stuffs which could be brought over to gta03 instead of gta02/om2008 specific. * won't work on om2007 stack. So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! :) Regards, John ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Christ van Willegen schrieb: On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 9:47 AM, John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! Speed, speed, speed... [...] Suspend is quite good at the moment, but when the display is 'blanked' and the system is not in suspend, maybe pressing the 'power' button could up the screen instead. Now it wakes up and immediately suspends. what distro did you use? my suspend / resum still kills my sound. (Pulsaudio) and that means it isn't realy a phone. it's more an extention pack for my laptop :) i am using Om2008.8 stable. see this ticket for more details: http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1599 @John: my priority list would be: -- stable suspend / resume upgrade to kernel 2.6.26 / 2.6.27 faster boot. - but maybe it is better first to go to a new kernel in the hope that some suspend resume problems just go away by magic ;) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
accelerated x-driver! since the specs for the glamo are subject to an nda, nobody else can ... We have an accelerated X driver, do you mean add more features? afair 3d and video (ie playing videos) still need work. am i wrong? did i miss something? additionally, xglamo in debian does not support tslib (yet) -- but i am not sure how close the xglamo of debian is to the one of om200X.Y ... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 17:15 +0800, W.Kenworthy wrote: 2008.9 + updates A phone that works: reliably make and receive calls reliably make and receive sms's ... and I forgot to add, more regular updates to the stable branch. Monthly is way too long considering the rate of progress and the seriousness of the issues hitting users. Weekly seems more appropriate at the moment. BillK ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
2008/10/16 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Here are my desired clients I want to develop: - Emacs phone services on top of dbus Hey, me too! Can we share / help each other out? That said, all I have so far is an attempt at an Emacs soft keyboard (attached). It's very clunky and basic right now, but I think there are lots of possibilities down this road, such as predictive keyboards (like the Qtopia one), keyboards that are optimized for specific applications, etc. Regards, Neil softkey.el Description: Binary data ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I agree, we don't have to spend developer time on things that are going away. (So please don't fix qtopia) And here are the bugs that should be solved (My opinion): LANSCAPE http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1244: Landscape mode must work good, also for glamo http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1961: Going into landscape mode must be smooth http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1336: Landscape mode shouldn't shift the screen by 160px http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1381: Let libsdl spit out the correct mouse coordinations WIFI http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1860: Give the wifi driver more love http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1902: Make the wifi work with one-character long ESSID http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/2030: Let the wifi also connect with WEP networks VARIA http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1158: Charger shouldn't stop charging when it's still connected http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1024: Fix the gsm reregistering issue. (Only if it's not qtopia related) http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1718: Finally fix the python-pygtk program http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1267: Fix the echo problem http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1802: Don't let the partition table of the sd card be corrupted http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1597: Don't let cpu do nothing and still eating 30% http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1315: Keep xglamo at the same performance http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1841: Solve the WSOD, so openmoko isn't the next windows Neil Jerram wrote: I agree that you should not spend time on Qtopia. Even though I use Qtopia most of the time, I would prefer you to focus all your efforts on the lower levels (up to and including the FSO dbus interfaces) until they are rock solid. Neil -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Back-to-the-basics%3A-improving-user-experience-tp1340253p1340753.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? accelerated x-driver! since the specs for the glamo are subject to an nda, nobody else can ... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
An important note to the people who are experiencing all-round instability: I haven't had many problems with phone calls or SMS. I believe the critical point was to disable QPE's file search upon bootup [1]. Before I did that, I had all kinds of mysterious problems (including PIN), derived from the fact that the Neo's CPU was starving for cycles. To make matters worse, it would suspend before the indexing job was done, and so the Neo would not have enough CPU power to correctly process incoming calls and messages when it resumed. After disabling that QPE stuff, it basically works. [1]: http://n2.nabble.com/No-pin-dialog--qpe-tp685679p685679.html Citando John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What do you want us to work on? Prioritized: 1 - Solve the call quality problems (echo, buzzing, volume) for 99% of the users. 2 - Solve the illume resume problems. They have been talked about over and over, but unfortunately the information is scattered and imprecise. the tickets themselves have misleading info (I should know, I helped confuse you...), so maybe this deserves a new single ticket, where everyone contributes with more exact information; 3 - Get the wifi driver corrected, so that it does not create link association and stability and problems; 4 - Finish/validate implementation of the networking stack (all the way up to resolv.conf and friends); 5 - Merge the GPRS muxer into the stable distro, so that it works out of the box; 6 - Integrate the main applications with the power management: if QPE wants to index the whole friggin' filesystem right after boot, then give it time to do so before going into suspend; if you don't, it just bogs down the CPU for many suspend/resume cycles, creating all sorts of problems, and we don't know what is going on... 7 - Accelerate Qt applications - they respond so slowly that a normal user will shoot itself in the foot everyday (i.e. pushing the Answer button twice because it didn't appear to respond, effectively killing the call; or taking the phone to the ear after pushing Answer and having it rind loudly one last time in the ear); 8 - Work with the people of FDOM to integrate the best workarounds and hacks - they did the work already, just use it. 9 - Get all the bluetooth support organized out-of-the-box. I haven't played with it in a long time, but it looked like black voodoo to get a simple pairing and OBEX exchange going... forget about PAN!... 10 - Put a speaker button on the dialer app. This is my only GUI desire for now... Vasco. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Neil Jerram [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 2008/10/16 [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Here are my desired clients I want to develop: - Emacs phone services on top of dbus Hey, me too! Can we share / help each other out? Cool! Clearly we should work together. Here are some ideas of mine: - get emacs23 working, so one can use the dbus support of emacs 23. - make a dialer compatible with bbdb, and later addressbook.el - make a gnus backend for sms - a symbol chooser keyboard, much like you hinted at below. Heres my take on the idea: - start the keyboard(an emacs app) in a particular context(lets say m-x now, but its the same for adresses or whatever) - (1) show all unique prefixes in this context - (2) choose a prefix - (3) repeat from (1) with the chosen prefix, exit on a terminal symbol I really think Emacs could be a superiour telephone application plattform! That said, all I have so far is an attempt at an Emacs soft keyboard (attached). It's very clunky and basic right now, but I think there are lots of possibilities down this road, such as predictive keyboards (like the Qtopia one), keyboards that are optimized for specific applications, etc. Regards, Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Joakim Verona ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I can see there are at least 2 distinct types of user of OM: A - I need a working phone now, the uber-cool PDA stuff can wait; B - OM is a groundbreaking project, I don't care about telephony, let's press the revolution! As much as I am divided among the two views, I think OM must oblige to its responsibility towards the users who have paid for their hardware, and keep its promise of a working phone. I don't think that making the core system work (including a little hacking of the Qtopia stuff) is a waste of time; any insight that is gained here can immediately be applied to FSO. OM2008.x will simply serve as a real-world testbed (one that is everyday usable!). When FSO comes along, it will already have the necessary corrections... Citando Didier Raboud [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Vasco Névoa wrote: I agree with you partly; the main efforts should go into getting the new framework out - *as long as it runs on a rock-solid core system*. So I support the idea of accelerating the FSO integration... but in the meantime people have to use the sucking Qtopia ware in their everyday life, because there is no realistic alternative. FSO is still very incomplete at the user level. Today, the complete system is not reliable and the reliable system is not complete at all. If you fix the core and qtopia now, everybody gets a working phone, and FSO gets a more reliable development core. You favor the users, which are the noisier people. ;) If you jump start FSO into main distro, there will still not exist a complete system that can be used everyday. You favor the developers, who could wait a little more (but not long!) and ARE ALSO USERS. So please just make it work solidly, and then integrate FSO. :) Well... I would rather let a bit more freedom to the team : if you (as in the team which will make the iFoan obsolete) think that breaking useability or functionality or anything else could serve the cause : do it ! Please decide your roadmap and make it public ! I (personnally) don't care if I am not able to use my Neo as a phone (and anything else possible) for 2-3-4-5 months : I have a working phone. BUT, what I would like to know is _when_ I will get _what_ functionality. I you think that breaking the whole stuff for a moment will serve a precise goal, please do it ! Regards, OdyX -- Swisslinux.org - Le carrefour GNU/Linux en Suisse - http://www.swisslinux.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Vasco Névoa wrote: I can see there are at least 2 distinct types of user of OM: A - I need a working phone now, the uber-cool PDA stuff can wait; B - OM is a groundbreaking project, I don't care about telephony, let's press the revolution! As much as I am divided among the two views, I think OM must oblige to its responsibility towards the users who have paid for their hardware, and keep its promise of a working phone. I agree. Having a solid functional phone is the prime objective. Paul -- My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate - that's my philosophy. -Thornton Wilder (from The Skin of Our Teeth) http://www.nlpagan.net Running on Mandriva Linux 2008 and Ubuntu 8.04 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I would love to see the rotation/scaling bugs finished up Bug #1244. It has evolved as far as symptoms, both scaling to low res 320x240 and rotation yield incorrect x,y coordinates. (Although going through tslib directly works fine, showing that it is glamo issue) Would be nice to have this year + issue laid to rest, that would open the doors to some of our game developers and add to the overall functionality of the gui interfaces being created. There have been two patches made available, one that fixes rotation and one that independantly fixes scaling, but I havnt seen an overall solution, or at least havn't seen the solution show up in the repo. Scott John Lee wrote: Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: * Reduce boot time. * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage. * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python scripts. * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience. I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? The idea is * We improve the current stack, not creating new features. * Prefer stuffs which could be brought over to gta03 instead of gta02/om2008 specific. * won't work on om2007 stack. So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! :) Regards, John ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Back-to-the-basics%3A-improving-user-experience-tp1340253p1341811.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
I agree to this point. I would rather wait a few months to have a rock solid core functioning device than one that works now with something that isn't going to be used long term. quote who=Didier Raboud Vasco Névoa wrote: I agree with you partly; the main efforts should go into getting the new framework out - *as long as it runs on a rock-solid core system*. So I support the idea of accelerating the FSO integration... but in the meantime people have to use the sucking Qtopia ware in their everyday life, because there is no realistic alternative. FSO is still very incomplete at the user level. Today, the complete system is not reliable and the reliable system is not complete at all. If you fix the core and qtopia now, everybody gets a working phone, and FSO gets a more reliable development core. You favor the users, which are the noisier people. ;) If you jump start FSO into main distro, there will still not exist a complete system that can be used everyday. You favor the developers, who could wait a little more (but not long!) and ARE ALSO USERS. So please just make it work solidly, and then integrate FSO. :) Well... I would rather let a bit more freedom to the team : if you (as in the team which will make the iFoan obsolete) think that breaking useability or functionality or anything else could serve the cause : do it ! Please decide your roadmap and make it public ! I (personnally) don't care if I am not able to use my Neo as a phone (and anything else possible) for 2-3-4-5 months : I have a working phone. BUT, what I would like to know is _when_ I will get _what_ functionality. I you think that breaking the whole stuff for a moment will serve a precise goal, please do it ! Regards, OdyX -- Swisslinux.org â Le carrefour GNU/Linux en Suisse â http://www.swisslinux.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Suspend is quite good at the moment, but when the display is 'blanked' and the system is not in suspend, maybe pressing the 'power' button could wake up the screen instead. Now it wakes up and immediately suspends. 100% agreement. The suspend on power button is completely useless for me. The machine suspends automatically anyway, so I don't need to waste the precious few buttons we have on rare operations like explicitly request the machine to go to sleep. It would have been good to put more buttons on the FR, but at the very least we should make better use of the 2 we have. Stefan ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Am Donnerstag, den 16.10.2008, 10:13 -0700 schrieb SCarlson: I would love to see the rotation/scaling bugs finished up Bug #1244. It has evolved as far as symptoms, both scaling to low res 320x240 and rotation yield incorrect x,y coordinates. (Although going through tslib directly works fine, showing that it is glamo issue) Would be nice to have this year + issue laid to rest, that would open the doors to some of our game developers and add to the overall functionality of the gui interfaces being created. There have been two patches made available, one that fixes rotation and one that independantly fixes scaling, but I havnt seen an overall solution, or at least havn't seen the solution show up in the repo. Scott John Lee wrote: Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: * Reduce boot time. * Optimize the touch screen driver on freerunner for finger usage. * A generic python loader to enhance the start up time of python scripts. * Work with system team to improve suspend/resume user experience. I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? The idea is * We improve the current stack, not creating new features. * Prefer stuffs which could be brought over to gta03 instead of gta02/om2008 specific. * won't work on om2007 stack. So, tell us what you want, then the coding monkeys will start working! :) Regards, John ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community +1 I think this will help us to improve (X) performance for every image... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Am Donnerstag, den 16.10.2008, 18:20 +0200 schrieb Paul: Vasco Névoa wrote: I can see there are at least 2 distinct types of user of OM: A - I need a working phone now, the uber-cool PDA stuff can wait; B - OM is a groundbreaking project, I don't care about telephony, let's press the revolution! As much as I am divided among the two views, I think OM must oblige to its responsibility towards the users who have paid for their hardware, and keep its promise of a working phone. I agree. Having a solid functional phone is the prime objective. Paul I agree too. With high priority the phone/sms functinality should fixed and maybe enhanced and afterwards the PC functions could be performed. But the terminal appl. should be availible all time, because FR is still a computer with a GSM module and sometimes I need the terminal to check/fix/calibrate the phone/PC. -- mfg/br, christian Flurstraße 14 29640 Schneverdingen Germany E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Telefon: +49 5193 97 14 95 Mobile: +49 171 357 59 57 http://wesselch.homelinux.org signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 16:58 +0100, Vasco Névoa wrote: I can see there are at least 2 distinct types of user of OM: A - I need a working phone now, the uber-cool PDA stuff can wait; B - OM is a groundbreaking project, I don't care about telephony, let's press the revolution! As much as I am divided among the two views, I think OM must oblige to its responsibility towards the users who have paid for their hardware, and keep its promise of a working phone. There has been a lot of talk about a working phone, and I agree (mostly). When I bought the FR I used it to replace my old phone (non-PDA style regular flip phone). Other than just telephony services, I found the Calendar/Alarm service very important. Currently accessing the clock and accessing the alarm is difficult, not to mention there is only one alarm time slot per day. I couldn't say much about the stability, I have two other alarm clocks next to it to wake up, although neither of those are stable either (I use a Cowon A3 player... DO NOT use it to wake you up.. it won't go off half the time). Apart from this digression, I would just like to say that a regular phone is expected to have extensible utilities such as stable SMS, calendars, contacts, and alarm clocks. In my opinion, it's not just a phone. It's a day-planner. -Boris ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Personally I would like to see stopping development of ASU and 2007 stack and concentrate on FSO and developing some standards. The reason for this is that so much time and effort are spent on something that we won't use in the future. If the official distro is going to be based on FSO, than a lot of work will be just thrown away. Example - suspend/resume issue - some people work to get it done on ASU, spending time, and some are working on the same problem on FSO. Than, when FSO will be merged with the main distro - we won't need suspend thing from ASU - a lot of time and effort for nothing. It's just an example. About standards - FSO is good from this point. I can develop for it using different languages and it's awesome. But what about PIM stack? There is a project from GSOC, but it's either dead or just being developed really slow. What if some time OM is spending on ASU get to develop PIM stack for FSO? Or even make a 0.9 release of FSO even earlier as planned? In short I would like to see: 1. Abandonment of ASU and 2007. 2. More effort fo FSO. 3. Some fixes for Qtopia (for people who needs working phone), instead of working on ASU. 4. Hardware - some fixes. Personally I have GSM re-registering problem. Some people have others. A lot of them are fixed, but it still needs some work. Leonti ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Back to the basics: improving user experience
John Lee wrote: Hi, Like Wolfgang said in http://n2.nabble.com/Weekly-Engineering-News-41-2008-td1336450.html We assembled a team to focus on improving the user experience. Here is our todo list at the moment: [...] I would like to ask the community: What do you want us to work on? For my 2 cents, I'd suggest that OM choose one distribution, either 2008.x or (more likely) FSO, and concentrate on getting basic phone and SMS functionality, with suspend/resume, to work very reliably on that distribution. Until that is done, I'd recommend ignoring everything else. Unless the Freerunner works as a phone, the thing is just a toy for nerds no matter how wonderfully anything else might work on it. Ken Young ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 10:15 AM, W.Kenworthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008.9 + updates A phone that works: reliably make and receive calls reliably make and receive sms's At the moment, totally losing sms messages (phone sometimes hangs/crashes when one comes in) or not waking up if suspended when one comes in means that its almost unusable as a phone. It often takes several boots before the pin dialog comes up. If you forget while waiting and it does come up but its awhile until you get to it, it will hang so you have to reboot anyway. Sometimes restarting X helps, but not always Stability: My average in normal usage is at least two boots a day due to crashes, and often extra rebooting to check if an sms comes in (sometimes they will only show on fresh re-registration. Leaving the phone on and registered for hours doesnt seem to help - not sure how vodafone australia takes to retry messages but surely its less that 12 hours. The only way to stop crashes is not to use the thing! No GPS, no wireless, no phone calls, and definitely never send/receive an sms :) I suspect the event/0 thread is at the root of a lot of this so I am waiting a fix for that. I dont think I am alone in this - hopefully the new focus means that these issues can be dealt with. I am a little concerned though that you think things like boot time is important enough to mention, but not basic issues like being able to reliably make a phone call. Though a faster boot means less time wasted going through multiple bootups to get the thing registered. :) I should mention that 2007.2 seemed more stable and mature than 2008 anything still is up until work stopped on it. BillK Totally, totally agree! Who cares a beep about wifi , speed, gps, accelerometer, booting time when the phone itself doesn't work. Please fix this issues first, use the precious developing time for these priorities , so whe can finally use the phone for daily use. The fun and fancy stuff can come later. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Leonti Bielski wrote: But what about PIM stack? There is a project from GSOC, but it's either dead or just being developed really slow. What if some time OM is spending on ASU get to develop PIM stack for FSO? Or even make a 0.9 release of FSO even earlier as planned? This is what I'd like to write. But there's a think I'd like to remark here too (I've already said on the devel list), imho we should move to a PIM stack that is compatible with the Qtopia one not to break compatibility and support for multi-boot also from an high level application point of view. That PIM stack is quite good and accessible with easy instruments (practically all is done with a sqlite3 database, and the same can be easily doable with new python stack too). Imho this should be a key point. It's quite obvious that a good PIM stack is vital for a portable device. -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thursday 16 October 2008 23:22:26 t m wrote: Who cares a beep about wifi , speed, gps, accelerometer, booting time when the phone itself doesn't work. I agree about beep, speed, gps, accelerometer. But I would say a little bit of faster booting would be necessary in these early days where you have to reboot quite often. I don't neet a bootup time of 5 seconds yet but 3-4 minutes is definitely too long just to reactivate some peace of hard- of software. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
Citando John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What do you want us to work on? Prioritized: 1 - Solve the call quality problems (echo, buzzing, volume) for 99% of the users. 2 - Solve the illume resume problems. They have been talked about over and over, but unfortunately the information is scattered and imprecise. the tickets themselves have misleading info (I should know, I helped confuse you...), so maybe this deserves a new single ticket, where everyone contributes with more exact information; 3 - Get the wifi driver corrected, so that it does not create link association and stability and problems; 4 - Finish/validate implementation of the networking stack (all the way up to resolv.conf and friends); 5 - Merge the GPRS muxer into the stable distro, so that it works out of the box; 6 - Integrate the main applications with the power management: if QPE wants to index the whole friggin' filesystem right after boot, then give it time to do so before going into suspend; if you don't, it just bogs down the CPU for many suspend/resume cycles, creating all sorts of problems, and we don't know what is going on... 7 - Accelerate Qt applications - they respond so slowly that a normal user will shoot itself in the foot everyday (i.e. pushing the Answer button twice because it didn't appear to respond, effectively killing the call; or taking the phone to the ear after pushing Answer and having it rind loudly one last time in the ear); 8 - Work with the people of FDOM to integrate the best workarounds and hacks - they did the work already, just use it. 9 - Get all the bluetooth support organized out-of-the-box. I haven't played with it in a long time, but it looked like black voodoo to get a simple pairing and OBEX exchange going... forget about PAN!... 10 - Put a speaker button on the dialer app. This is my only GUI desire for now... Vasco. Yes to the call quality(#1)! Please fix this, I hate talking to people on my Freerunner since they can't hear me well, and I can't hear them. I used a friends phone the other day and was blown away by how good the people on the other end soundedThis should be a non-issue. I wholly agree with this list, in this order. +10! -Ben ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 05:00 -0700, dant wrote: So maybe we could make one big(ger) app (remember that there is quite big amount of ram there) responsible for calling, contacts, sms and all that phonny stuff and keep it all the time in memory with all needed library (static build?) There are a few projects doing this : tichy [0], zhone [1], and future paroli [2] are all single process apps. charlie/guillaume [0] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Tichy [1] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Zhone [2] http://code.google.com/p/paroli/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Back to the basics: improving user experience
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 01:01:27PM +0200, Riccardo Centra wrote: Why Qtopia? I prefer that you release the next minor update ( aka 2008.10 ) and focus all works on paroli and tichy. The new framework is pretty usable and stable. Our plan is to bring qtopia to a more usable state then it currently is before the next big thing - fso + tichy (?) + paroli , but enhancements which could be brought to the new software stack will get higher priority. People (including myself) still need to use the phone before that. :) - John 2008/10/16 John Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 05:15:59PM +0800, W.Kenworthy wrote: 2008.9 + updates A phone that works: reliably make and receive calls reliably make and receive sms's At the moment, totally losing sms messages (phone sometimes hangs/crashes when one comes in) or not waking up if suspended when one comes in means that its almost unusable as a phone. It often takes several boots before the pin dialog comes up. If you forget while waiting and it does come up but its awhile until you get to it, it will hang so you have to reboot anyway. Sometimes restarting X helps, but not always Stability: My average in normal usage is at least two boots a day due to crashes, and often extra rebooting to check if an sms comes in (sometimes they will only show on fresh re-registration. Leaving the phone on and registered for hours doesnt seem to help - not sure how vodafone australia takes to retry messages but surely its less that 12 hours. The only way to stop crashes is not to use the thing! No GPS, no wireless, no phone calls, and definitely never send/receive an sms :) I suspect the event/0 thread is at the root of a lot of this so I am waiting a fix for that. I dont think I am alone in this - hopefully the new focus means that these issues can be dealt with. I am a little concerned though that you think things like boot time is important enough to mention, but not basic issues like being able to reliably make a phone call. Though a faster boot means less time wasted going through multiple bootups to get the thing registered. :) I would like to explain a bit more about this: We're not the only team that will work on the new focus. Stability should be greatly improved by the effort of FSO, and boot time is just another thing we would also like to improve. At the same time, we will work on fixing qtopia bugs as well, so if the problems you have is in trac already, we will look into them. - John ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
