Re: GPS emergency call standards
Besides all the discussion. Is this here really yet patented? http://www.brainshell.de/patentmarkt_ikt.php http://www.brainshell.de/upload/Openmoko_de01b9e8b4.pdf If a patent would disable an emergeny functionality like automating the alert in case of 'changing behaviour' (accels), or it makes the device a bit more expensive, because it helps save live, I must say patents are the wrong way. I think, such an important issue should not be patented, because it is a feature all phones should become and not only these whose manufacturer are willing to pay the patent licenses. Also, in my view, the amount of invention is not quite high to eligible for a patent. What do you think? Is there prior art? http://www.steiger-stiftung.de/GPS-Ortung-So-funktioniert-s.67.0.html An interactive location is established and is provided by many services, does an automation of them by a change in accelorometer behavior not be always the conclusion to be the best? Wouldn't that idea in someones head earlyer? Lothar Am 19.03.2009 um 01:18 schrieb Rask Ingemann Lambertsen: On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 02:58:10PM +0100, Tilman Baumann wrote: Harald Welte wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 12:06:20PM +0100, Tilman Baumann wrote: PS: According to Wikipedia, 112 works on all GSM networks no matter if the number is a emergency number in tie state. that depends on what the network operator does. Yep, but there seems to be some international agreement on the significance of 112. I don't have any quote yet, but as far as I understood it is even required to by the GSM standards. But that might be wrong. A D112 AT command is mentioned in the 3GPP TS 07.07 specification which you can get from here: http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/html-info/0707.htm Quoting section 8.3 Enter PIN +CPIN: NOTE: Commands which interact with ME that are accepted when ME is pending SIM PIN, SIM PUK, or PH‑SIM are: +CGMI, +CGMM, +CGMR, +CGSN, D112; (emergency call), +CPAS, +CFUN, +CPIN, +CDIS (read and test command only), and +CIND (read and test command only). I don't know where the D112 command is documented. I also haven't looked through the commands to see if there is a loophole such that you can dial 112 without making an emergency call. Btw, a few days ago danish media had a news story about unintended emergency calls. It appears that the answering machine offered by many telcos is partly to blame. What happens is that you press and hold 1 to speed dial your answering machine, press 1 to listen to a message and press 2 to delete a message. Doing so leaves the number 112 on the display... -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de Lothar Behrens Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2 73252 Lenningen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
Perhaps you can also merge the functionality with http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Anti-Theft_Mode and avoid the patent thing. Lothar Behrens wrote: Besides all the discussion. Is this here really yet patented? http://www.brainshell.de/patentmarkt_ikt.php http://www.brainshell.de/upload/Openmoko_de01b9e8b4.pdf If a patent would disable an emergeny functionality like automating the alert in case of 'changing behaviour' (accels), or it makes the device a bit more expensive, because it helps save live, I must say patents are the wrong way. I think, such an important issue should not be patented, because it is a feature all phones should become and not only these whose manufacturer are willing to pay the patent licenses. Also, in my view, the amount of invention is not quite high to eligible for a patent. What do you think? Is there prior art? http://www.steiger-stiftung.de/GPS-Ortung-So-funktioniert-s.67.0.html An interactive location is established and is provided by many services, does an automation of them by a change in accelorometer behavior not be always the conclusion to be the best? Wouldn't that idea in someones head earlyer? Lothar Am 19.03.2009 um 01:18 schrieb Rask Ingemann Lambertsen: On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 02:58:10PM +0100, Tilman Baumann wrote: Harald Welte wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 12:06:20PM +0100, Tilman Baumann wrote: PS: According to Wikipedia, 112 works on all GSM networks no matter if the number is a emergency number in tie state. that depends on what the network operator does. Yep, but there seems to be some international agreement on the significance of 112. I don't have any quote yet, but as far as I understood it is even required to by the GSM standards. But that might be wrong. A D112 AT command is mentioned in the 3GPP TS 07.07 specification which you can get from here: http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/html-info/0707.htm Quoting section 8.3 Enter PIN +CPIN: NOTE: Commands which interact with ME that are accepted when ME is pending SIM PIN, SIM PUK, or PH‑SIM are: +CGMI, +CGMM, +CGMR, +CGSN, D112; (emergency call), +CPAS, +CFUN, +CPIN, +CDIS (read and test command only), and +CIND (read and test command only). I don't know where the D112 command is documented. I also haven't looked through the commands to see if there is a loophole such that you can dial 112 without making an emergency call. Btw, a few days ago danish media had a news story about unintended emergency calls. It appears that the answering machine offered by many telcos is partly to blame. What happens is that you press and hold 1 to speed dial your answering machine, press 1 to listen to a message and press 2 to delete a message. Doing so leaves the number 112 on the display... -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de Lothar Behrens Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2 73252 Lenningen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
On Wednesday 18 March 2009, arne anka wrote: well, it fits the wet dreams of germany's current top terrorists hunter (register everyone who buys a sim card) -- and there are no numbers mentioned of abuse. In 2003 our local telco monopoly released numbers show about 70% of emergency calls were not real - so about 7 million false calls to 000 (the Australian emergency number) in *Melbourne* each year. That's getting on for 2 per head of population. That includes hoaxes, mistakes, fax machines (yes, really), unlocked mobiles pocket-dialing 000, school kids, people calling 000 to report a car blocking their drive because their local police station went to an answer phone, etc.. -- Chris Samuel : http://www.csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC This email may come with a PGP signature as a file. Do not panic. For more info see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
On Mar 18, 2009, at 04:28 , Chris Samuel wrote: On Wednesday 18 March 2009, arne anka wrote: well, it fits the wet dreams of germany's current top terrorists hunter (register everyone who buys a sim card) -- and there are no numbers mentioned of abuse. In 2003 our local telco monopoly released numbers show about 70% of emergency calls were not real - so about 7 million false calls to 000 (the Australian emergency number) in *Melbourne* each year. That's getting on for 2 per head of population. That includes hoaxes, mistakes, fax machines (yes, really), unlocked mobiles pocket-dialing 000, school kids, people calling 000 to report a car blocking their drive because their local police station went to an answer phone, etc. Hmmm...I wonder how much of that could be avoided by choosing something like 911 or 909 or (as stated on the TV show IT Crowd) 0118 999 881 999 119 7253 :) instead of 3 consecutive presses of the most exposed digit on the phone keypad. It's a lot harder to keypad mash those than just 000. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 02:58:10PM +0100, Tilman Baumann wrote: Harald Welte wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 12:06:20PM +0100, Tilman Baumann wrote: PS: According to Wikipedia, 112 works on all GSM networks no matter if the number is a emergency number in tie state. that depends on what the network operator does. Yep, but there seems to be some international agreement on the significance of 112. I don't have any quote yet, but as far as I understood it is even required to by the GSM standards. But that might be wrong. A D112 AT command is mentioned in the 3GPP TS 07.07 specification which you can get from here: http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/html-info/0707.htm Quoting section 8.3Enter PIN +CPIN: NOTE: Commands which interact with ME that are accepted when ME is pending SIM PIN, SIM PUK, or PH‑SIM are: +CGMI, +CGMM, +CGMR, +CGSN, D112; (emergency call), +CPAS, +CFUN, +CPIN, +CDIS (read and test command only), and +CIND (read and test command only). I don't know where the D112 command is documented. I also haven't looked through the commands to see if there is a loophole such that you can dial 112 without making an emergency call. Btw, a few days ago danish media had a news story about unintended emergency calls. It appears that the answering machine offered by many telcos is partly to blame. What happens is that you press and hold 1 to speed dial your answering machine, press 1 to listen to a message and press 2 to delete a message. Doing so leaves the number 112 on the display... -- Rask Ingemann Lambertsen Danish law requires addresses in e-mail to be logged and stored for a year ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 12:06:20PM +0100, Tilman Baumann wrote: Hi, I'm just wondering if there are any open standards for emergency services for location. I'm thinking about services like http://www.steiger-stiftung.de (European, websites in other languages should be available) A SMS to the respective emergency (112, 911) number containing the GPS position could be a start, but then someone has to read it. I would guess there is a standard for a computer readable format. Building a emergency call app would be a nice thing to have. PS: According to Wikipedia, 112 works on all GSM networks no matter if the number is a emergency number in tie state. that depends on what the network operator does. The SIM card has a list of emergency numbers. If you call one of those numbers, or make an emergency call without a SIM card inserted, the phone will do itts request for a physical channel indicating its a EMERGENCY call, and then use EMERGENCY SETUP instead of SETUP, so the network can decide to rather kill somebody elses call and free resources for your emergency call in case the cell is otherwise full. that's at least the theory from the protocol side. the practical implementation can look quite different. The German government e.g. now legally mandates that an operator will refuse to take emergency calls from phones with no SIM card inserted. regards, -- - Harald Welte lafo...@openmoko.org http://openmoko.org/ Software for the world's first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
Harald Welte wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 12:06:20PM +0100, Tilman Baumann wrote: Hi, I'm just wondering if there are any open standards for emergency services for location. I'm thinking about services like http://www.steiger-stiftung.de (European, websites in other languages should be available) I have asked them. They are basically not prepared to share any information on details. It is somehow a service they provide, but how it is implemented is unknown. Reply to my question if I might have some information to make my phone use their service, the answer was 'there are many phones which support us...' Yes, and I want to become one of them. But this is to much to ask from them. Stupid fuckers. I'm sure they did not even understand what I was asking. :-/ eCall seems to be a more open system, but still no real informations to find. And it as a slightly different focus too. A SMS to the respective emergency (112, 911) number containing the GPS position could be a start, but then someone has to read it. I would guess there is a standard for a computer readable format. Building a emergency call app would be a nice thing to have. PS: According to Wikipedia, 112 works on all GSM networks no matter if the number is a emergency number in tie state. that depends on what the network operator does. Yep, but there seems to be some international agreement on the significance of 112. I don't have any quote yet, but as far as I understood it is even required to by the GSM standards. But that might be wrong. The SIM card has a list of emergency numbers. If you call one of those numbers, or make an emergency call without a SIM card inserted, the phone will do itts request for a physical channel indicating its a EMERGENCY call, and then use EMERGENCY SETUP instead of SETUP, so the network can decide to rather kill somebody elses call and free resources for your emergency call in case the cell is otherwise full. That would be a great thing to have indeed. This needs to be included in the (FSO) dialer/contacts framework. Including the other special numbers the sim has, like ones own. -- Imagination is more important than knowledge. Albert Einstein ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
Yep, but there seems to be some international agreement on the significance of 112. at least in all states of the eu 112 has to work -- the last member to implement it only recently was bulgaria (see http://www.heise.de/newsticker/Eine-Notrufnummer-fuer-alle-27-EU-Laender--/meldung/132427). though, in germany in future emergency calls are possible only _with_ a sim card inserted (http://www.heise.de/newsticker/Kein-Notruf-ohne-SIM-Karte--/meldung/132539). inhowfar that is a way to remedy the alleged misuses of emergency numbers seems rather questionable -- will probably kill more people than it saves. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
arne anka wrote: Yep, but there seems to be some international agreement on the significance of 112. at least in all states of the eu 112 has to work -- the last member to implement it only recently was bulgaria (see http://www.heise.de/newsticker/Eine-Notrufnummer-fuer-alle-27-EU-Laender--/meldung/132427). though, in germany in future emergency calls are possible only _with_ a sim card inserted (http://www.heise.de/newsticker/Kein-Notruf-ohne-SIM-Karte--/meldung/132539). inhowfar that is a way to remedy the alleged misuses of emergency numbers seems rather questionable -- will probably kill more people than it saves. Well it can go either way. Many costs are made when reacting to false calls and less resources are available for serious calls. Also, who is using a phone without a SIM card anyway? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
Well it can go either way. Many costs are made when reacting to false calls and less resources are available for serious calls. well, it fits the wet dreams of germany's current top terrorists hunter (register everyone who buys a sim card) -- and there are no numbers mentioned of abuse. Also, who is using a phone without a SIM card anyway? a lot of people have got one in the car or elsewhere exactly to make emergency calls w/o having to pay for a sim. but that's off topic. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
On Mar 17, 2009, at 07:57 , arne anka wrote: Well it can go either way. Many costs are made when reacting to false calls and less resources are available for serious calls. well, it fits the wet dreams of germany's current top terrorists hunter (register everyone who buys a sim card) -- and there are no numbers mentioned of abuse. That would explain why I had such problems getting a SIM card during my recent trip to Europe. I knew it was some sort of overreaction like that. *sigh*. Your government learns too well from ours :) The one good thing that came out of the whole mess was that it pointed out that the majority of my SIM problems during the trip were political/bureaucratic and not due to an intrinsic problem with the FR. -Steve ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
Am Do 12. März 2009 schrieb Harald Welte: the practical implementation can look quite different. The German government e.g. now legally mandates that an operator will refuse to take emergency calls from phones with no SIM card inserted. WTF, those braindead i /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
GPS emergency call standards
Hi, I'm just wondering if there are any open standards for emergency services for location. I'm thinking about services like http://www.steiger-stiftung.de (European, websites in other languages should be available) A SMS to the respective emergency (112, 911) number containing the GPS position could be a start, but then someone has to read it. I would guess there is a standard for a computer readable format. Building a emergency call app would be a nice thing to have. PS: According to Wikipedia, 112 works on all GSM networks no matter if the number is a emergency number in tie state. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
Tilman Baumann wrote: Hi, I'm just wondering if there are any open standards for emergency services for location. I'm thinking about services like http://www.steiger-stiftung.de (European, websites in other languages should be available) A SMS to the respective emergency (112, 911) number containing the GPS position could be a start, but then someone has to read it. I would guess there is a standard for a computer readable format. Building a emergency call app would be a nice thing to have. PS: According to Wikipedia, 112 works on all GSM networks no matter if the number is a emergency number in tie state. If you have the gps coordinates, just tell them over the phone as you make the call. They will use it if they have gps eqipment, which is likely. Automating this seems dangerous in that your SMS to the emergency service is delayed by a few minutes as the phone struggle to get the first fix. When you talk, you can fall back on other descriptions of the place (addresses, road names) if coordinates aren't available. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
Am 24.02.2009 um 12:38 schrieb Helge Hafting: Tilman Baumann wrote: Hi, I'm just wondering if there are any open standards for emergency services for location. I'm thinking about services like http://www.steiger-stiftung.de (European, websites in other languages should be available) A SMS to the respective emergency (112, 911) number containing the GPS position could be a start, but then someone has to read it. I would guess there is a standard for a computer readable format. Building a emergency call app would be a nice thing to have. PS: According to Wikipedia, 112 works on all GSM networks no matter if the number is a emergency number in tie state. If you have the gps coordinates, just tell them over the phone as you make the call. They will use it if they have gps eqipment, which is likely. As log as you are able to do so. I'm more thinking about something like a machine readable side channel paralel to a regular emergency call. BTW. the German ADAC is completely helpless if you provide them GPS coordinates. Automating this seems dangerous in that your SMS to the emergency service is delayed by a few minutes as the phone struggle to get the first fix. When you talk, you can fall back on other descriptions of the place (addresses, road names) if coordinates aren't available. Depends, when a GPS fix is made it will be much more precise and quicker. And there seems to be a standard for cars to make automatic emergency calls on accidents. It is called eCall and no technical information is to be found... :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
Tilman Baumann wrote: Am 24.02.2009 um 12:38 schrieb Helge Hafting: Tilman Baumann wrote: Hi, I'm just wondering if there are any open standards for emergency services for location. I'm thinking about services like http://www.steiger-stiftung.de (European, websites in other languages should be available) A SMS to the respective emergency (112, 911) number containing the GPS position could be a start, but then someone has to read it. I would guess there is a standard for a computer readable format. Building a emergency call app would be a nice thing to have. PS: According to Wikipedia, 112 works on all GSM networks no matter if the number is a emergency number in tie state. If you have the gps coordinates, just tell them over the phone as you make the call. They will use it if they have gps eqipment, which is likely. As log as you are able to do so. I'm more thinking about something like a machine readable side channel paralel to a regular emergency call. BTW. the German ADAC is completely helpless if you provide them GPS coordinates. Automating this seems dangerous in that your SMS to the emergency service is delayed by a few minutes as the phone struggle to get the first fix. When you talk, you can fall back on other descriptions of the place (addresses, road names) if coordinates aren't available. Depends, when a GPS fix is made it will be much more precise and quicker. And there seems to be a standard for cars to make automatic emergency calls on accidents. It is called eCall and no technical information is to be found... :) The notification part sending data can be reused with/from http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Anti-Theft_Mode Uploading GSM cell info, GPS coordinates, USB IDs, voice recordings, etc. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS emergency call standards
Even if the GPS location is not actually got, the phone software in that case could activate GPS automatically. When GPS has a fix the app could assist in taking another call or, if no reaction of the user do it automatically. Navit could be used to locate the city and street near the location and this could be spd-say'ed. The human in danger then only has to accept to do the followup call, nothing more. In case all is fine he/she could dismiss. Doing all the combination of locating and navit, will help in the typical situation one isn't really in the position to 'think' about what to tell to the operator. There are several articles and at least one I have read or have seen about doing emergency calls in carcrash for sample with the car - GPS application. Would that help ? Lothar Am 24.02.2009 um 15:30 schrieb Pander: Tilman Baumann wrote: Am 24.02.2009 um 12:38 schrieb Helge Hafting: Tilman Baumann wrote: Hi, I'm just wondering if there are any open standards for emergency services for location. I'm thinking about services like http://www.steiger-stiftung.de (European, websites in other languages should be available) A SMS to the respective emergency (112, 911) number containing the GPS position could be a start, but then someone has to read it. I would guess there is a standard for a computer readable format. Building a emergency call app would be a nice thing to have. PS: According to Wikipedia, 112 works on all GSM networks no matter if the number is a emergency number in tie state. If you have the gps coordinates, just tell them over the phone as you make the call. They will use it if they have gps eqipment, which is likely. As log as you are able to do so. I'm more thinking about something like a machine readable side channel paralel to a regular emergency call. BTW. the German ADAC is completely helpless if you provide them GPS coordinates. Automating this seems dangerous in that your SMS to the emergency service is delayed by a few minutes as the phone struggle to get the first fix. When you talk, you can fall back on other descriptions of the place (addresses, road names) if coordinates aren't available. Depends, when a GPS fix is made it will be much more precise and quicker. And there seems to be a standard for cars to make automatic emergency calls on accidents. It is called eCall and no technical information is to be found... :) The notification part sending data can be reused with/from http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Anti-Theft_Mode Uploading GSM cell info, GPS coordinates, USB IDs, voice recordings, etc. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de Lothar Behrens Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2 73252 Lenningen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
