Re: Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
ok, i will see what I can do once I have the phone and my reprap is working :) On 17 March 2012 18:03, Adam Bogacki adam.boga...@clear.net.nz wrote: Not that I know of, but I would volunteer to test it. :-) Adam adam.boga...@clear.net.nz On -9/01/37 07:59, Lionel Broche wrote: just adding my two pence: it may not satisfy every users, but has any company ever made a forearm-attached casing? some phone that you could clip on your left forearm, so that the keyboard and the screeen would be steady while your right arm writes down. Plus, there would be no danger of stealing. Lionel On 15 March 2012 23:10, EdorFaus edorf...@xepher.net wrote: On 03/16/2012 12:00 AM, EdorFaus wrote: clip it onto the side with the USB port use a standard USB keyboard module Aw, man... I just got this odd image in my head of a full-size standard qwerty keyboard with an angled docking port on the top - kinda like the iPod docks in some stereo systems - meant for the GTA0x... Not really practical for carrying around in any way, but at least you can avoid cables when using it at home... unless you want to charge it or connect it to the LAN or something at the same time of course. :P ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
Not that I know of, but I would volunteer to test it. :-) Adam adam.boga...@clear.net.nz On -9/01/37 07:59, Lionel Broche wrote: just adding my two pence: it may not satisfy every users, but has any company ever made a forearm-attached casing? some phone that you could clip on your left forearm, so that the keyboard and the screeen would be steady while your right arm writes down. Plus, there would be no danger of stealing. Lionel On 15 March 2012 23:10, EdorFaus edorf...@xepher.net mailto:edorf...@xepher.net wrote: On 03/16/2012 12:00 AM, EdorFaus wrote: clip it onto the side with the USB port use a standard USB keyboard module Aw, man... I just got this odd image in my head of a full-size standard qwerty keyboard with an angled docking port on the top - kinda like the iPod docks in some stereo systems - meant for the GTA0x... Not really practical for carrying around in any way, but at least you can avoid cables when using it at home... unless you want to charge it or connect it to the LAN or something at the same time of course. :P ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
just adding my two pence: it may not satisfy every users, but has any company ever made a forearm-attached casing? some phone that you could clip on your left forearm, so that the keyboard and the screeen would be steady while your right arm writes down. Plus, there would be no danger of stealing. Lionel On 15 March 2012 23:10, EdorFaus edorf...@xepher.net wrote: On 03/16/2012 12:00 AM, EdorFaus wrote: clip it onto the side with the USB port use a standard USB keyboard module Aw, man... I just got this odd image in my head of a full-size standard qwerty keyboard with an angled docking port on the top - kinda like the iPod docks in some stereo systems - meant for the GTA0x... Not really practical for carrying around in any way, but at least you can avoid cables when using it at home... unless you want to charge it or connect it to the LAN or something at the same time of course. :P __**_ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/**mailman/listinfo/communityhttp://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Keyboard for GTA04
During the Openmoko Stammtisch Munich yesterday, we have once again discussed options to build a special GTA04 keyboard. And now I think we have found a way to really square the circle. The square being functionality and the circle being cost. The idea is to use: * off-the shelf pushbutons (Panasonic has some nice and very flat SMD buttons readily available at DigiKey) * a Shapeways made custom case * a not very sophisticated PCB with the buttons, a Bluetooth HCI module [1], a small LiIon battery and a microcontroller scanning the keyboard and supporting USB charging Now comes the key idea: having a shapeways printed case makes it possible to think about a keyboard built into a replacement battery cover. It makes it a little thicker than normal, but you can detach it and use it as a keyboard. A first cost estimate: * buttons: 25 ct each i.e. 16 EUR @ 64 keys * case: 20 EUR * bluetooth module: 20 EUR * PCB + MCU: 20 EUR * Battery, production etc. So it should be possible to build such a beast at less than 100 EUR (where we are back at the financial issues we generally have). And, it needs people working on it. Tasks will be to choose a HCI capable bluetooth module and a MCU, write software (firmware), work on the schematics develop 3D data for a Shapeways case. Who would be interested (and has time and skills to contribute) to join a team that starts working on such a project? Nikolaus [1]: something like http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10823 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
Hi, Nicolaus, Actually detached keyboard is almost useless for phone. It is not possible to use it any conditions expect then phone lays on some surface and you not holding it. This is because if you using one hand to hold phone, you have one one hand free. Holding and using keyboard with one hand is not possible. Before implementing such detached keyboard, buy bluetooth one in shop and try it - you'll find it completely useless :) So, keyboard on phone should be build-in and usable... and i don't know how should look something better than keyboard on n900. If gta04 have hw keyboard, i buy it immediately as a every-day phone. Linux has excellent set of command-line tools and it's a crime not to have a hw keyboard on linux device. Gennady. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 03:09:09PM +0400, Gennady Kupava wrote: Hi, Nicolaus, Actually detached keyboard is almost useless for phone. It is not possible to use it any conditions expect then phone lays on some surface and you not holding it. This is because if you using one hand to hold phone, you have one one hand free. Holding and using keyboard with one hand is not possible. Before implementing such detached keyboard, buy bluetooth one in shop and try it - you'll find it completely useless :) I fully agree on this, I have bought smaller keyboard (with USB cable) for freerunner and I don't use it very much, because as you said it's not really usable e.g. while sitting in train and trying to balance phone + keyboard on your lap. So in trains I'm using n900 only and om-gta02 is sitting at home always connected to desktop (with real keyboard). So, keyboard on phone should be build-in and usable... and i don't know how should look something better than keyboard on n900. I don't have hands-on experience but keyboard on pictures of Motorola Droid 4 looks even better then n900 keyboard, mostly because of extra row. http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/10/motorola-droid-4-review/ If gta04 have hw keyboard, i buy it immediately as a every-day phone. Linux has excellent set of command-line tools and it's a crime not to have a hw keyboard on linux device. Agreed, that's why I also prefer more common layout with enough keys to map also '/', '|' etc. somewhere close to fingers. Cheers, -- Martin 'JaMa' Jansa jabber: martin.ja...@gmail.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
Am 15.03.2012 um 12:09 schrieb Gennady Kupava: Hi, Nicolaus, Actually detached keyboard is almost useless for phone. It is not Well, the idea is not a detached keyboard but a detachable (so that it simplifies mechanical construction). possible to use it any conditions expect then phone lays on some surface and you not holding it. This is because if you using one hand to hold phone, you have one one hand free. Holding and using keyboard with one hand is not possible. And why not add some hooks or joints so that you can clip together both parts after detaching them? Before implementing such detached keyboard, buy bluetooth one in shop and try it - you'll find it completely useless :) I have some and just don't like the feeling of the keys. So, keyboard on phone should be build-in and usable... and i don't know how should look something better than keyboard on n900. Well, we can't build a n900 keyboard... But we can work on something that comes closer than no keyboard at all. If gta04 have hw keyboard, i buy it immediately as a every-day phone. Linux has excellent set of command-line tools and it's a crime not to have a hw keyboard on linux device. This are all good arguments to discuss with the team. Maybe someone suddently has the inspiration. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
Am 15.03.2012 um 13:29 schrieb Martin Jansa: On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 03:09:09PM +0400, Gennady Kupava wrote: Hi, Nicolaus, Actually detached keyboard is almost useless for phone. It is not possible to use it any conditions expect then phone lays on some surface and you not holding it. This is because if you using one hand to hold phone, you have one one hand free. Holding and using keyboard with one hand is not possible. Before implementing such detached keyboard, buy bluetooth one in shop and try it - you'll find it completely useless :) I fully agree on this, I have bought smaller keyboard (with USB cable) for freerunner and I don't use it very much, because as you said it's not really usable e.g. while sitting in train and trying to balance phone + keyboard on your lap. So in trains I'm using n900 only and om-gta02 is sitting at home always connected to desktop (with real keyboard). So, keyboard on phone should be build-in and usable... and i don't know how should look something better than keyboard on n900. I don't have hands-on experience but keyboard on pictures of Motorola Droid 4 looks even better then n900 keyboard, mostly because of extra row. http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/10/motorola-droid-4-review/ Yes, but do you think it does help to dream about the best keyboards made by (formerly?) big companies? They will most likely not do anything for our GTA02/04. So we have to roll up our own sleeves... If gta04 have hw keyboard, i buy it immediately as a every-day phone. Linux has excellent set of command-line tools and it's a crime not to have a hw keyboard on linux device. Agreed, that's why I also prefer more common layout with enough keys to map also '/', '|' etc. somewhere close to fingers. That appears to be easily done when printing key caps at Shapeways and making the keymap ourselves (open source). Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
On Thu, 2012-03-15 at 13:41 +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: And why not add some hooks or joints so that you can clip together both parts after detaching them? What would be ok for me! But may be slider is not so complex? Put the battery and sim into lower part, some rails and it is here. Of course i am completely not competent in this kind of design. Hope it doesn't sound too stupid :) Gennady ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Martin Jansa martin.ja...@gmail.comwrote: I fully agree on this, I have bought smaller keyboard (with USB cable) for freerunner and I don't use it very much, because as you said it's not really usable e.g. while sitting in train and trying to balance phone + keyboard on your lap. So in trains I'm using n900 only and om-gta02 is sitting at home always connected to desktop (with real keyboard). On this, I respectfully disagree. When I had my Neo in full flight, I often used a Bluetooth keyboard to do longer sessions. For short sessions, I'd use the stylus and the tiny onscreen keyboard. I actually tried a variety of Bluetooth keyboards, and yes, balancing them can be a pain, especially in a moving platform like a train. I found a good way to situate things, with my backpack as a support for the Neo, and thus only having to hang onto the keyboard on a subway train, which has lots of motion. Is it ideal? No. Would having a cradle or some sort of attachment been better? Probably, but it wasn't useless. I wrote e-mails, reports, and diary entries in this way, and I liked it a lot -- as the onscreen keyboard is handy but not functional. Now, if the keyboard was big enough for me to do work, but also portable, that would be fantastic. I saw a smaller Bluetooth keyboard yesterday ... which is about the size of an average phone. The keys were way too small for fingers, so I'm guessing it is aimed at the thumb market, which might be a fit for some but wouldn't help me. Thanks, Gerald ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Keyboard for GTA04
On Thursday 15 March 2012 12:57:23 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: During the Openmoko Stammtisch Munich yesterday, we have once again discussed options to build a special GTA04 keyboard. And now I think we have found a way to really square the circle. The square being functionality and the circle being cost. The idea is to use: * off-the shelf pushbutons (Panasonic has some nice and very flat SMD buttons readily available at DigiKey) * a Shapeways made custom case * a not very sophisticated PCB with the buttons, a Bluetooth HCI module [1], a small LiIon battery and a microcontroller scanning the keyboard and supporting USB charging Now comes the key idea: having a shapeways printed case makes it possible to think about a keyboard built into a replacement battery cover. It makes it a little thicker than normal, but you can detach it and use it as a keyboard. I was with you up to the bluetooth + battery part. Why not use a slide out keyboard with a TCA8418 and wired i2c connection to the main board? The board should be cheaper and simpler, the plastics little different to a sliding bluetooth device, and there'd be no messing about remembering whether you'd charged the keyboard. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 09:56:01AM -0400, Gerald A wrote: On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Martin Jansa martin.ja...@gmail.comwrote: I fully agree on this, I have bought smaller keyboard (with USB cable) for freerunner and I don't use it very much, because as you said it's not really usable e.g. while sitting in train and trying to balance phone + keyboard on your lap. So in trains I'm using n900 only and om-gta02 is sitting at home always connected to desktop (with real keyboard). On this, I respectfully disagree. When I had my Neo in full flight, I often used a Bluetooth keyboard to do longer sessions. For short sessions, I'd use the stylus and the tiny onscreen keyboard. I actually tried a variety of Bluetooth keyboards, and yes, balancing them can be a pain, especially in a moving platform like a train. I found a good way to situate things, with my backpack as a support for the Neo, and thus only having to hang onto the keyboard on a subway train, which has lots of motion. Is it ideal? No. Would having a cradle or some sort of attachment been better? Probably, but it wasn't useless. Yes it's better than onscreen keyboard but being able to attach it to phone is the important part at least for me. (I was carying that keyboard in original paper box and was using top cover to hold my freerunner - but that's still far from ideal). Something like double battery cover with some rails for keyboard sliding out from it would be nice (still holding one piece of hw - even if it makes whole phone extra 1cm thick). It doesn't need to be in main body and it would also add option to decide to go out with just classic cover and smaller case. I wrote e-mails, reports, and diary entries in this way, and I liked it a lot -- as the onscreen keyboard is handy but not functional. Now, if the keyboard was big enough for me to do work, but also portable, that would be fantastic. I saw a smaller Bluetooth keyboard yesterday ... which is about the size of an average phone. The keys were way too small for fingers, so I'm guessing it is aimed at the thumb market, which might be a fit for some but wouldn't help me. Cheers, -- Martin 'JaMa' Jansa jabber: martin.ja...@gmail.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Keyboard for GTA04
Am 15.03.2012 um 15:10 schrieb Al Johnson: On Thursday 15 March 2012 12:57:23 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: During the Openmoko Stammtisch Munich yesterday, we have once again discussed options to build a special GTA04 keyboard. And now I think we have found a way to really square the circle. The square being functionality and the circle being cost. The idea is to use: * off-the shelf pushbutons (Panasonic has some nice and very flat SMD buttons readily available at DigiKey) * a Shapeways made custom case * a not very sophisticated PCB with the buttons, a Bluetooth HCI module [1], a small LiIon battery and a microcontroller scanning the keyboard and supporting USB charging Now comes the key idea: having a shapeways printed case makes it possible to think about a keyboard built into a replacement battery cover. It makes it a little thicker than normal, but you can detach it and use it as a keyboard. I was with you up to the bluetooth + battery part. Why not use a slide out keyboard with a TCA8418 and wired i2c connection to the main board? The board should be cheaper and simpler, the plastics little different to a sliding bluetooth device, and there'd be no messing about remembering whether you'd charged the keyboard. Yes, there are contact points on the GTA04A4 board prepared for this. My main concern are that cables may break too often and connecting it to the main board plus getting it out of the device is a little fiddly. But this could be a cheaper (and easier to develop) option than BT+Battery. It just needs to place the TCA (plus some ESD-protection) on the board and a set of buttons like these: http://search.digikey.com/de/de/products/EVQ-P6DB35/P14165CT-ND/1966474 Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
Hey, I would like to have it rather swinging out than sliding. Then you could lock it at ca. 180° (with a bar or something) and by using the full back area of the case, it would be big enough for a expanded layout. As connector I would like USB more than bluetooth, but don't know how thin a cable can be. Regards, Kai ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Keyboard for GTA04
On Thursday 15 March 2012 15:30:34 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 15.03.2012 um 15:10 schrieb Al Johnson: On Thursday 15 March 2012 12:57:23 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: During the Openmoko Stammtisch Munich yesterday, we have once again discussed options to build a special GTA04 keyboard. And now I think we have found a way to really square the circle. The square being functionality and the circle being cost. The idea is to use: * off-the shelf pushbutons (Panasonic has some nice and very flat SMD buttons readily available at DigiKey) * a Shapeways made custom case * a not very sophisticated PCB with the buttons, a Bluetooth HCI module [1], a small LiIon battery and a microcontroller scanning the keyboard and supporting USB charging Now comes the key idea: having a shapeways printed case makes it possible to think about a keyboard built into a replacement battery cover. It makes it a little thicker than normal, but you can detach it and use it as a keyboard. I was with you up to the bluetooth + battery part. Why not use a slide out keyboard with a TCA8418 and wired i2c connection to the main board? The board should be cheaper and simpler, the plastics little different to a sliding bluetooth device, and there'd be no messing about remembering whether you'd charged the keyboard. Yes, there are contact points on the GTA04A4 board prepared for this. Thanks to your fine documentation I could check that before I posted ;-) The power and unused i2c3 on the test pads looked good. Did I miss a better one? It looks like there's a reasonable bit of space above them in the case too. My main concern are that cables may break too often and connecting it to the main board plus getting it out of the device is a little fiddly. I agree that's probably the trickiest bit. Any idea how sensitive the i2c is to the cable? Would a flexible headphone lead type work, or would it need flexi-pcb? But this could be a cheaper (and easier to develop) option than BT+Battery. It just needs to place the TCA (plus some ESD-protection) on the board and a set of buttons like these: http://search.digikey.com/de/de/products/EVQ-P6DB35/P14165CT-ND/1966474 With a thin cover of laser cut and etched stainless, or a plastic part to keep it all from shapeways? Either option would make changing the keymap relatively easy. Also I thought the TCA included ESD protection, although that was just from a quick glance at the datasheet. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com writes: Now comes the key idea: having a shapeways printed case makes it possible to think about a keyboard built into a replacement battery cover. It makes it a little thicker than normal, but you can detach it and use it as a keyboard. This sounds interesting. I can imagine that my fingers might even get used to using such a keyboard without detaching it from the back. Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Keyboard for GTA04
Hi, my idea would be a very stable leather case for the GTA4. I would attach a bluetooth keyboard to the cover, that the keyboard opposes the screen, if closed. The leather case should stable enough, that if it is open, you hold it with both hands, and type with your thumbs, while looking on your GTA4 in landscape mode. Kind of the same concept as the clamshell Zauruses. The bluetooth conection has the advantage, that you can bend it a thousand times, it will not break, like cables. But ... the keyboard needs its own battery. only an idea, Joerg On Thu, 2012-03-15 at 15:30 +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 15.03.2012 um 15:10 schrieb Al Johnson: On Thursday 15 March 2012 12:57:23 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: During the Openmoko Stammtisch Munich yesterday, we have once again discussed options to build a special GTA04 keyboard. And now I think we have found a way to really square the circle. The square being functionality and the circle being cost. The idea is to use: * off-the shelf pushbutons (Panasonic has some nice and very flat SMD buttons readily available at DigiKey) * a Shapeways made custom case * a not very sophisticated PCB with the buttons, a Bluetooth HCI module [1], a small LiIon battery and a microcontroller scanning the keyboard and supporting USB charging Now comes the key idea: having a shapeways printed case makes it possible to think about a keyboard built into a replacement battery cover. It makes it a little thicker than normal, but you can detach it and use it as a keyboard. I was with you up to the bluetooth + battery part. Why not use a slide out keyboard with a TCA8418 and wired i2c connection to the main board? The board should be cheaper and simpler, the plastics little different to a sliding bluetooth device, and there'd be no messing about remembering whether you'd charged the keyboard. Yes, there are contact points on the GTA04A4 board prepared for this. My main concern are that cables may break too often and connecting it to the main board plus getting it out of the device is a little fiddly. But this could be a cheaper (and easier to develop) option than BT+Battery. It just needs to place the TCA (plus some ESD-protection) on the board and a set of buttons like these: http://search.digikey.com/de/de/products/EVQ-P6DB35/P14165CT-ND/1966474 Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
On 03/15/2012 01:41 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 15.03.2012 um 12:09 schrieb Gennady Kupava: This is because if you using one hand to hold phone, you have one one hand free. Holding and using keyboard with one hand is not possible. And why not add some hooks or joints so that you can clip together both parts after detaching them? Well, if we're detaching the keyboard from the back side and then clipping them back together for use anyway - is there a good reason we can't just clip it onto the side with the USB port, and use that port for power and keyboard data? That way we wouldn't need bluetooth or a battery, nor have to connect new cables to the main board. Additionally, it would make it easier for people who prefer a thinner phone and don't mind carrying extra devices, as they can use the standard back cover and still be able to connect this keyboard. Also, if we use a standard USB keyboard module (I don't know if that's feasible), it could be tested and used with other PCs too... Of course, it does have a downside - can't use the USB port while the keyboard is connected (unless it includes a hub and/or charger passthrough), and is arguably riskier wrt. destroying the USB port if you drop the phone with the keyboard connected... -- Regards, Frode Austvik ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Gta04-owner] Keyboard for GTA04
On 03/16/2012 12:00 AM, EdorFaus wrote: clip it onto the side with the USB port use a standard USB keyboard module Aw, man... I just got this odd image in my head of a full-size standard qwerty keyboard with an angled docking port on the top - kinda like the iPod docks in some stereo systems - meant for the GTA0x... Not really practical for carrying around in any way, but at least you can avoid cables when using it at home... unless you want to charge it or connect it to the LAN or something at the same time of course. :P ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
