Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
Hi! just as a short newsflash: we got 258 votes-of-interest and even 30 that are willing to pay =700EUR for a Neo900 aka GTA04-NeoN board plus housing and other needed parts. Follow the hype at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 cheers jOERG -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
I would say, maemo fremantle is great. if we could manage to make it free, i. e. rewrite it's non-free parts, and make it available on more platforms, like nexus, it'll be great. having free hardware in n900 case it good too. but first of all let's get working free, indeed free maemo. not the proprietary one that could be flashed from nokia images. but the one which is possible to port to different devices. so may be someone does not like n900 and want to use it on n9 or nexus. or whatever phone he has. I like SHR for that reason - there are at least a couple of platforms supported. maemo isn't great, maemo is a purposefully crippled debian with the added benefit to prevent the user from simply using debian armel packages. imo, the way to go would be to port all of maemo to debian thereby getting rid of nokia's imcompatibilities also inside packages (gtk springs to mind). iirc there is/was work going on in that direction. BTW: PLEASE cut quotes to the least needed amount and do not just hit reply! -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 10:12 AM, arne anka wrote: maemo isn't great If I were using Maemo, I guess the biggest problem for me would be security support, I wonder if there is any right now? imo, the way to go would be to port all of maemo to debian thereby getting Your wording isn't clear here, but I guess you mean join Debian and get all the new packages and patches from Maemo added to Debian? If you want to start doing that, take a look at these pages. I'm sure that the Debian mobile folks will be happy to help guide you with this. http://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers https://wiki.debian.org/Mobile iirc there is/was work going on in that direction. At one point the Hildon stuff was in Debian but it got removed because it became clear that it did not have a future upstream since Nokia was dropping it. Now some things like 0x are in Debian but not much else. In particular I don't think that Debian has a version of Linux that can run on the N900 yet, same for GTA02/GTA04. Probably the same for bootloaders etc. There is some info about how different Maemo (all versions) is from Debian in these files: http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/Maemo/sources.new http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/Maemo/sources.patches http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/Maemo/patches/ These are derived from this data: https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census/Maemo If there is anyone from the Maemo community interested in being the contact point for maintaining this info, I get the impression that Jeremiah is no longer involved in Maemo so it would be great to have a replacement for him. https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census https://wiki.debian.org/DerivativesFrontDesk -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
On Wed 28 August 2013 10:33:47 Paul Wise wrote: There is some info about how different Maemo (all versions) is from Debian in these files: http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/Maemo/sources.new http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/Maemo/sources.patches http://dex.alioth.debian.org/census/Maemo/patches/ These are derived from this data: https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census/Maemo Maybe related resp helping: http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages (NB that's not my POV, usual disclaimers apply), and http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages The maemo fremantle porting project is not targeted at creating a fork or new release of maemo OS, but strictly to keep compatibility from N900 to Neo900 so users can ideally restore a backup from their old N900 to their new Neo900 and the device acts exactly like user got used to. Also we don't plan to recompile the repositories with all the applications, and for the much needed core apps like dialer we even can't do that since they are closed. However you're free to run any distro you like on GTA04 and GTA04-N900 aka Neo900, just the maemo community fremantle porting task force will not bother about rebasing on debian or whatever, the goals of that task force are clearly defined. cheers /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
Non-free maemo isn't redistributable. There's must be free maemo version. The existing version won't be possible to flash to gta-04 because it is currently not possible to do that. It's different hardware. Otherwise it won't be necessary to port SHR to n900, that's obvious. So, in order to redistribute GTA-04 version of maemo, there must be free redistributable maemo. Also, I believe many apps like GPS apps which use liblocation won't work, because liblocation is proprietary, and needs to be rewritten with the same interface. Otherwise, full compatibility is just not possible, without replacing those proprietary parts with free parts. I personally have no problem using SHR on n900 like device. But you are the one who considers maemo compatibility to be the key feature. That's why I am writing this. The maemo fremantle porting project is not targeted at creating a fork or new release of maemo OS, but strictly to keep compatibility from N900 to Neo900 so users can ideally restore a backup from their old N900 to their new Neo900 and the device acts exactly like user got used to. Also we don't plan to recompile the repositories with all the applications, and for the much needed core apps like dialer we even can't do that since they are closed. However you're free to run any distro you like on GTA04 and GTA04-N900 aka Neo900, just the maemo community fremantle porting task force will not bother about rebasing on debian or whatever, the goals of that task force are clearly defined. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
On Wed 28 August 2013 22:21:18 Norayr Chilingarian wrote: [...] Also, I believe many apps like GPS apps which use liblocation won't work, because liblocation is proprietary, and needs to be rewritten with the same interface. GolDeliCo won't ship the Neo900 with maemo pre-installed. We got (or will have) a fremantle porting task force at maemo community that does the porting, provides installable rootfs, and explains how to install and use the closed blobs like liblocation. Nokia donated maemo to community, and we had the permission from Nokia to re-use and even re-distribute the blobs since years already. While rewriting blobs is a long term minor goal of CSSU [1], we won't do a complete rewrite of every closed blob for Neo900 fremantle-port. Actually if we did, we could use any arbitrary hardware ülatform and just recompile the completely liberated fremantle for it. We wouldn't need a GTA04-N900 that's close to the original N900 hw-wise. The idea of GTA04-N900 is to reduce the hw-diffs to an amount that can get handled in kernel/drivers by patching them. You probably know that kernel and kernel driver modules are FOSS in maemo. cheers jOERG -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 1:14 AM, joerg Reisenweber jo...@openmoko.org wrote: While rewriting blobs is a long term minor goal of CSSU [1], we won't do a complete rewrite of every closed blob for Neo900 fremantle-port. Actually if we did, we could use any arbitrary hardware ülatform and just recompile the completely liberated fremantle for it. We wouldn't need a GTA04-N900 that's close to the original N900 hw-wise. The idea of GTA04-N900 is to reduce the hw-diffs to an amount that can get handled in kernel/drivers by patching them. You probably know that kernel and kernel driver modules are FOSS in maemo. Yeah, Neo900 won't be associated with any specific operating system. SHR, QtMoko or anything else that works now on GTA04 should be very easy, if not trivial, to run on Neo900. For this community, Neo900 is just a upgraded GTA04 in different case (well, it might be that Neo900 will cause upgrade of GTA04 itself, so it will be rather something like variant of GTA04 rather than upgrade to it). But there's one reason why we need Fremantle Porting Task Force - demand. Maemo community waited for N900 successor for so long, and with such low demand as we're struggling with those devices, every single willing buyer helps us a lot. Also, this is not Nokia-owned OS anymore - community owns it and effort to ditch closed blobs and switch to free replacements is ongoing, as Joerg pointed out. There are also some initiatives for rebasing Fremantle on top of current Debian and to stay as close to upstream as possible. Those efforts slowly die together with N900. When there are less and less developers, the goal of Freemantle is more and more away. Neo900 is meant to resurrect this community as soon as possible. While joining Freemantle effort into Neo900 project would mean inevitable failure (not enough manpower, people being disappointed due to unstable software etc.), giving Maemo community something pretty much rock-solid as a good base for future work (even with still with some closed parts) might be better idea for our long term goals. It might be that reimplementing some OS part will be easier than adding some compatibility layer in kernel. In such cases, Freemantle will even benefit directly from porting task force work. And still, if you're not interested in Fremantle, just ignore it. There are people who are - they will generate some demand, so we'll be able to get bigger production runs, so everyone will be happier. Nevertheless, Neo900 will stay true to everything that GTA04 represents right now. It will just get new form factor to attract different people. -- Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos http://dosowisko.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
Am 26.08.2013 um 16:24 schrieb Tomas Nackaerts: Hi all! I actually think this is a great idea! I always liked the N900 formfactor. But is it technically possible? I remember somebody mention that the option modem is quite big? Yes, but it is the flattest one we could get. And from the photos of the N900 board I have seen they even need more space for the separate modem chips. And if there will be a redesign the fit the gta04 to the n900 will it possible to update the specs a bit? faster cpu and stuff like that? Faster CPU: yes - the idea is to use the 1GHz DM3730 which is 25-30% faster (at least at peak performance - if clock is reduced to 200MHz it is also slow). But to be honest, i will probably not buy this device if it has the same problems the current gta04 has. (power usage and modem enumeration) Well, we can't say if it will have the same problems - and even if the problems if the GTA04 are really problems or just lack of a solution. And, I must warn a little - a Neo900 design may have other problems we will only see if it has been built and tested by hundredts of users. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
Am 26.08.2013 um 14:35 schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak: Hello! Short introduction, as I was rather inactive in this community recently: I'm dos, long time Openmoko supporter, owner of GTA02 and (now broken) Nokia N900. Few years ago I was quite an active developer of FSO (opimd) and SHR. Few days ago I've created website draft for GTA04. As we all know, GTA04 project has few non-technical problems. Poor demand is one of them, poor availability of parts is the second one. Those two problems together are pretty much show stoppers, cause if we fix one, the second one becomes harder. But Joerg Reisenweber came up with brilliant idea of adapting GTA04 board into N900 case. Why? - second source N900 housings are very cheap and available on eBay in big quantities - problem with very small amount of Openmoko cases solved - there are still new spare parts floating around on free market But using N900 gives us more: - GTA04 with physical keyboard! - screen that doesn't appear to be off in full sunlight - it seems that while some people like Openmoko case (I do), most rather think it's nice idea, but I wouldn't show up anywhere with such a brick :( N900 case seems to be more commonly accepted by public ;) Wait, there's even more! - if done right, we can engage Maemo community and increase the demand a lot! There are LOTS of broken N900s in possession of Maemo community members due to problems with faulty USB connector and GSM modem. Many of them (owners ;)) are waiting for proper N900 successor that never came (N9 is not, and Nokia is not interested in platform anymore at all). This might be great time to merge efforts from Openmoko/OpenPhoenux and Maemo communities. Neo900 project can benefit from both of them - there will be QtMoko/SHR/Replicant on the one side (it's just modified GTA04, so running all of them should be very easy), and there will be Maemo, Meego and maybe more porting initiatives on the other side. Joerg's idea includes full port of Maemo 5 (Fremantle) to allow N900 users to have drop-in upgrade - just like now GTA04 is for GTA01/02 owners. I think that can increase interest a lot! For now we named it Neo900 - making nods to both N900 and Openmoko roots :) I'm super excited about this idea, and it seems that I'm not the only one: Look at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 You can also read logs from #maemo from yesterday and today: https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-08-25.log.html https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-08-26.log.html It seems there is some interest, and that's just on Maemo side :) What do you think? Very good idea. If we can use the same basic design both, the GTA04 and the Neo900 could have many common components. And adding the number of chips bought of one type will help to reduce the purchase price of both. So trying to merg this is to the benefit of both. BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
[cut] What do you think? Hello Dos, I think it is great showcase how open projects can benefit from synergy. However I personally am not interested in HW keyboard and I will wait until my present phone wears off, before I buy next device. -- Patryk LeadMan Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
Hi all! I actually think this is a great idea! I always liked the N900 formfactor. But is it technically possible? I remember somebody mention that the option modem is quite big? And if there will be a redesign the fit the gta04 to the n900 will it possible to update the specs a bit? faster cpu and stuff like that? But to be honest, i will probably not buy this device if it has the same problems the current gta04 has. (power usage and modem enumeration) and also i don't want to pay 600+ for a smartphone. But i hope if this idea takes of and there is enough interest the price will be much lower. greetings, tomas ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
the most striking part of jörg's n900 idea seems not to attract any comments -- he said, he'd know at least one company who would be interested. being interested does not necessarily translate into will buy, but at least it would be worth to contemplate ... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
On Mon 26 August 2013 21:47:08 arne anka wrote: the most striking part of jörg's n900 idea seems not to attract any comments -- he said, he'd know at least one company who would be interested. Oh? where did I say this? Been a communication error. Or a complete storage dropout ;-) Sorry both happens to me sometimes, so I'd really be interested in a pointer or citation. cheers jOERG -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 22:25:06 +0200, joerg Reisenweber jo...@openmoko.org wrote: On Mon 26 August 2013 21:47:08 arne anka wrote: the most striking part of jörg's n900 idea seems not to attract any comments -- he said, he'd know at least one company who would be interested. Oh? where did I say this? Been a communication error. Or a complete storage dropout ;-) Sorry both happens to me sometimes, so I'd really be interested in a pointer or citation. cheers jOERG know for sure there's a (comparatively) huge community but when cp'ing it i discovered that i had read company instead of community. darn ... -- -- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
On Mon 26 August 2013 14:35:50 Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote: [...] Joerg's idea includes full port of Maemo 5 (Fremantle) to allow N900 users to have drop-in upgrade - just like now GTA04 is for GTA01/02 owners. I think that can increase interest a lot! Indeed I consider maemo fremantle compatibility a key feature of this project, since fremantle is proven on OMAP3 platform, both for power management and general every day usability. And userbase at maemo mostly expects compatibility. We (would) need to adapt GTA04 to mach resp resemble N900 enough so that all remaining differences can get handled on kernel/driver level. On an encouraging sidenote, we have already at least 2 volunteers for doing that kernel morphing, one of them even a ex-nokian kernel maintainer \o/ There are still some _severe_ issues that need to get evaluated/tackled ASAP: *) instabilities/issues reported for GTA04, with power management and modem **) USB / musb core in OMAP which is a greedy hog as long as powered. *) camera (N900 has 5MP with autofocus) *) N900 has 32GB eMMC *) interfacing the flex circuit board (aka ribbon cable) connection to to screen half, that also has ALS, secondary (VGA?) camera, proxy sensor, 3color LED *) component sourcing for speakers, antennae, et al *) completely different charging (N900 uses bq24150) *) AV-connector with auto-detection of headphones, headset, AV (maybe simply replace that in userland by a requester to pick type of cable/connection *) audio at large, N900 has a quite different circuitry for whole audio, and fremantle has some nasty PA modules, some of them even closed blobs (XPROT speaker protection, some limiter/compressor/EQ/overtemp-cutout) *)... I'm afraid there's more to come, that I don't see right now Anyway, the general mood is best described by extremely excited and it seems it's maybe worth following this idea some further, even with the above points pending to get solved. See http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 I hope I didn't state anything that Nikolaus will bash me for when tomorrow he reads all the stuff that happened. The poll I added on that ^^^ thread on tmo however shows that 7/8 of users are expecting us to compete with Samsung for the price range. Well, that been expected. The resulting discussion is maybe helpful nevertheless. cheers jOERG -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900
I would say, maemo fremantle is great. if we could manage to make it free, i. e. rewrite it's non-free parts, and make it available on more platforms, like nexus, it'll be great. having free hardware in n900 case it good too. but first of all let's get working free, indeed free maemo. not the proprietary one that could be flashed from nokia images. but the one which is possible to port to different devices. so may be someone does not like n900 and want to use it on n9 or nexus. or whatever phone he has. I like SHR for that reason - there are at least a couple of platforms supported. 08/27/13 12:57 -???, joerg Reisenweber-? ?: On Mon 26 August 2013 14:35:50 Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote: [...] Joerg's idea includes full port of Maemo 5 (Fremantle) to allow N900 users to have drop-in upgrade - just like now GTA04 is for GTA01/02 owners. I think that can increase interest a lot! Indeed I consider maemo fremantle compatibility a key feature of this project, since fremantle is proven on OMAP3 platform, both for power management and general every day usability. And userbase at maemo mostly expects compatibility. We (would) need to adapt GTA04 to mach resp resemble N900 enough so that all remaining differences can get handled on kernel/driver level. On an encouraging sidenote, we have already at least 2 volunteers for doing that kernel morphing, one of them even a ex-nokian kernel maintainer \o/ There are still some _severe_ issues that need to get evaluated/tackled ASAP: *) instabilities/issues reported for GTA04, with power management and modem **) USB / musb core in OMAP which is a greedy hog as long as powered. *) camera (N900 has 5MP with autofocus) *) N900 has 32GB eMMC *) interfacing the flex circuit board (aka ribbon cable) connection to to screen half, that also has ALS, secondary (VGA?) camera, proxy sensor, 3color LED *) component sourcing for speakers, antennae, et al *) completely different charging (N900 uses bq24150) *) AV-connector with auto-detection of headphones, headset, AV (maybe simply replace that in userland by a requester to pick type of cable/connection *) audio at large, N900 has a quite different circuitry for whole audio, and fremantle has some nasty PA modules, some of them even closed blobs (XPROT speaker protection, some limiter/compressor/EQ/overtemp-cutout) *)... I'm afraid there's more to come, that I don't see right now Anyway, the general mood is best described by extremely excited and it seems it's maybe worth following this idea some further, even with the above points pending to get solved. See http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 I hope I didn't state anything that Nikolaus will bash me for when tomorrow he reads all the stuff that happened. The poll I added on that ^^^ thread on tmo however shows that 7/8 of users are expecting us to compete with Samsung for the price range. Well, that been expected. The resulting discussion is maybe helpful nevertheless. cheers jOERG ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
