Re: [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 09:54, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote: if you wish to not violate a patent.. you simply have to give up on implementing the algorithm - or fight his patent in court first. Very straight and plain... what would you do in my place? -- Daniele ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Shr-User] [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
Dnia 2010-11-24, śro o godzinie 09:56 +0100, Thibaut Girka pisze: Le mercredi 24 novembre 2010 à 09:18 +0100, Patryk Benderz a écrit : Well, I do for example. Looking at the title of patent, it seems that 8pen is French based company. Following google hits I fount French patent office: http://www.inpi.fr/ But here after struggling for a while looking for English version, I decided to ask If any of you guys know French language and could help to find this patent (1058945 ) in patent office? I'm French, and after a quick search, I couldn't find this patent. Furthermore, I doubt INPI would accept this, it's about industrial patents, we don't have things like software patents. I made another attempt to look for this patent at http://www.epo.org/ and http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/index.jsp but failed here also. Any ideas where to find this patent? There is one more strangeness, looking at their schematic drawings, it looks like this patent application is not finished yet. Maybe they have not applied it yet? Another fact is that they are decided to distribute their software for free: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Android-Input-App-8pen-Is-Now-Free-for-Download-166085.shtml http://www.coveringweb.info/2010/11/android-input-app-8pen-is-now-free-for.html -- Patryk LeadMan Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:57, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote: i'd invent a new input method that doesn't violate the patent. take the principal and change it so its different enough not to violate. then implement that. They've just released version 1.1 for free (1.0 was 1.50 price). Could this mean something? :) -- Daniele ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Shr-User] [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
Joachim Ott wrote: On 24 November 2010 11:15, Patryk Benderz patryk.bend...@esp.pl wrote: Dnia 2010-11-24, śro o godzinie 09:56 +0100, Thibaut Girka pisze: Le mercredi 24 novembre 2010 à 09:18 +0100, Patryk Benderz a écrit : Well, I do for example. Looking at the title of patent, it seems that 8pen is French based company. Following google hits I fount French patent office: http://www.inpi.fr/ But here after struggling for a while looking for English version, I decided to ask If any of you guys know French language and could help to find this patent (1058945 ) in patent office? I'm French, and after a quick search, I couldn't find this patent. Furthermore, I doubt INPI would accept this, it's about industrial patents, we don't have things like software patents. I made another attempt to look for this patent at http://www.epo.org/ and http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/index.jsp but failed here also. Any ideas where to find this patent? There is one more strangeness, looking at their schematic drawings, it looks like this patent application is not finished yet. Maybe they have not applied it yet? 1058945 is, as they stated on their page, an application number, not yet a patent number. nb: when I was searching for patent claim Dispositif de saisie de signes comprenant une zone de base, I found another company (swypeinc.com) that has patented an input method. ___ Patent applications are usually only made public 18 months after date of filing, therefore you can't find it on the online databases. Since the, apparently international, application is in French, most likely it will be searched at the European Patent Office. Some useful links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_application http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_participation_in_patent_examination In any case, someone posted in another mail that Quickwriting already has a patent pending. Regards, Fernando ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
Hello Carsten, thanks for your reply. On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 08:02, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote: themselves. they are forgeable. if you have an overwhelming set of such data from multiple sources and witness statements with signatures on actual paper, then you have something beginning to be believable. What kind of proof do I exactly need? I mean, all I have is prof. Perlin Quickwriting page: http://www.mrl.nyu.edu/projects/quikwriting/ We also have some implementations of that, such as the Pocket PC one and the Linux one (QWO), but i don't know what else I may need nor where to find it :-( -- Daniele ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 10:14, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote: you need documents from him - papers he's submitted, lectures given, anything else that proves he had the idea AND when it actually happened (before the filing of the patent). the patent filing proves that 8pen's invention happened at least when they filed it - you have to prove that their invention came AFTEr another and is the same ie - prior art. you have to provide 1. it is actually prior, and 2. that it is the same thing. for that you will need all the documentation and proof you can get. an that means getting perlin's help. if he isn't interested in helping.. you're pretty much SOL as you need to convince the patent office, not your fellow hackers. :) I sent 2 e-mails to Perlin, still no reply from him. This is unfortunate... :S i'll try to get all the documents I can get by my own, but i guess that without Perlin's help i won't get much far... -- Daniele ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Shr-User] [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
Dnia 2010-11-23, wto o godzinie 09:13 +0100, Daniele Ricci pisze: Hello Carsten, thanks for your reply. On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 08:02, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote: themselves. they are forgeable. if you have an overwhelming set of such data from multiple sources and witness statements with signatures on actual paper, then you have something beginning to be believable. What kind of proof do I exactly need? I mean, all I have is prof. Perlin Quickwriting page: http://www.mrl.nyu.edu/projects/quikwriting/ I found something interesting... If you are interested in licensing this technology for commercial use, please contact licens...@cat.nyu.edu. Is it possible they have already patented this? Regarding contacts with Ken Perlin, he claims he works at: Games For Learning Institute New York University 715 Broadway 12th floor New York, NY 10003, USA T: (+1) 212.998.2242 F: (+1) 212.995.4122 so you can try to reach him by phone or by fax. -- Patryk LeadMan Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 10:52, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote: it's his idea. it's his job to defend it. he is the one who can. unless.. he's involved in 8pen as a founder/investor... then you're pushing poo uphill :) Contacting him by phone is not something I can do, i don't speak english very well... Anyway about the licensing e-mail address in the site, I already tried that, it's not active... :S -- Daniele ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Tuesday 23 November 2010, Daniele Ricci wrote: Hello Carsten, thanks for your reply. On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 08:02, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote: themselves. they are forgeable. if you have an overwhelming set of such data from multiple sources and witness statements with signatures on actual paper, then you have something beginning to be believable. What kind of proof do I exactly need? I mean, all I have is prof. Perlin Quickwriting page: http://www.mrl.nyu.edu/projects/quikwriting/ We also have some implementations of that, such as the Pocket PC one and the Linux one (QWO), but i don't know what else I may need nor where to find it :-( Ideally you want something in print with a verifiable publication date. A printed copy of UIST '98 - Proceedings of the 11th annual ACM Symposium on User Interface Software and Technology [1] might be available through university libraries if you can't get it direct from ACM. I don't know whether the 'Wired' article [2] made it into the print edition, but that's another one to check. [1] http://www.acm.org/uist/archive/html/proceedings/1998.html [2] http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/1999/04/19411 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 21:01, Bryan Petty etie...@gmail.com wrote: This is not true. A patent (6031525) was already filed for Quickwriting in 1999/2000: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6031525.html So if this is actually a duplicate patent, all Ken Perlin has to do is point out his patent to the patent office to get the 8pen one invalidated. I guess he won't. Can we do something about this? The patent office will realize it on its own, right? -- Daniele ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
--- On Tue, 11/23/10, Daniele Ricci daniele.ath...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 21:01, Bryan Petty etie...@gmail.com wrote: A patent (6031525) was already filed for Quickwriting in 1999/2000: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6031525.html The patent office will realize it on its own, right? There's sarcasm in that question, isn't there? Usually the patent office doesn't know or (bother to?) find out. The applicant for a duplicate patent also does not want to know or find out, because in that case they can be hold for triple damages in case of a complaint from the original patent holder. For similar reasons there is little incentive for the original inventor to raise a flag before the other becomes successful: it takes trouble with probably little returns. It is worth much more in damages to complain after the (so called) copycat became successful. Good luck with this quest! Boudewijn ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 23:53, Bryan Petty etie...@gmail.com wrote: If your concern if that you have licensed Ken Perlin's patent, you're safe from any lawsuits from 8pen. Actually my concern is about the implementation of the input method. I've already pushed to my git repository a working GLP'd implementation, but without data files (thus just a blank window). I'm waiting for this issue to be solved to be able to push the rest as soon as possible. For now I am the only one in the world to use it outside Android. Or i could simply push those files and forget about patents. I mean, it's just an open source implementation, who cares? :) -- Daniele ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 15:41, Dave Andreoli d...@gurumeditation.it wrote: Yeah , ABSOLUTELY!! What can we do to stop this patent? 8pen is EXACTLY the same as quikwriting. what can we do? are you involved in the quikwriting project? did you contact them? DaveMDS I contacted the 8pen company: just one reply and that's it. They're not responding any more. Probably they think they're in a bad position. I also sent a mail to prof. Perlin, the quickwriting creator, no reply. What about FSF? -- Daniele ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [e-users] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Sun, 2010-11-21 at 16:24 +0100, Daniele Ricci wrote: On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 15:41, Dave Andreoli d...@gurumeditation.it wrote: Yeah , ABSOLUTELY!! What can we do to stop this patent? 8pen is EXACTLY the same as quikwriting. what can we do? are you involved in the quikwriting project? did you contact them? DaveMDS I contacted the 8pen company: just one reply and that's it. They're not responding any more. Probably they think they're in a bad position. I also sent a mail to prof. Perlin, the quickwriting creator, no reply. What about FSF? What about SFLC? Denis. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Shr-User] Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 15:48, Joachim Ott jo.shrde...@googlemail.com wrote: I also did some research at the european patant office, I used the Application number 1058945 from http://www.the8pen.com/legal.html and searched with http://ep.espacenet.com/numberSearch?locale=en_EP - there are some hits, but they are all from 2004 or earlier. The one from 8pen is not listed there. the8pen or Michael Fester isn't found either. I see... i don't know where else to search... maybe it's not real... i mean could it be just a fake document for discouraging people willing to copy it? -- Daniele ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
Cross-posting for broadcasting Justus idea. On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 00:00, Justus Winter 4win...@informatik.uni-hamburg.de wrote: I am also tempted to mail the person(s?) behind 8pen addressing my concerns about his attempt to patent the idea, maybe even challenge his position stating that I would not recognize his claim. I believe the company is based in France (information is a scarce resource on both the 8pen and the companies (3qubits) one, I did a whois query). I'd be very interested whether such a patent is enforceable within the EU... I already did a few days ago; just a couple of mails... the interest part is this: === message received from them === Dear Daniele, In fact we did not know about the Quickwriting method that you have pointed out to us. It strikes us as an incredible coincidence. We're not interested in engaging into a legal debate, but in the development of an efficient alternative to conventional keyboards on small devices. However, intellectual property law does apply, and copying the 8pen does violate it within the scope set by the patent previously referred to. We're not dealing personally with issues that are in conflict with our patent, or that violate it, but we have instead passed them on to the lawyers who have filed it. === my reply Dear Daniele, In fact we did not know about the Quickwriting method that you have pointed out to us. It strikes us as an incredible coincidence. We're not interested in engaging into a legal debate, but in the development of an efficient alternative to conventional keyboards on small devices. Me neither I am interested in a legal debate, I just wanted to let you know that your idea is not original, thus it can't be applied for patenting. Anyway we'll wait for your patent approval. However, intellectual property law does apply, and copying the 8pen does violate it within the scope set by the patent previously referred to. We're not dealing personally with issues that are in conflict with our patent, or that violate it, but we have instead passed them on to the lawyers who have filed it. Of course i won't name my program 8pen for Linux. I guess editing Quickwriting to use 4 zones instead of 9 would violate your patent too? If Quickwriting was easily configurable to change the number of zones, how could this be handled? = end = Would anybody care to join me on this one? We could create a message or a message template and ask everyone send this message to the person behind the 8pen (crowdsourcing seems to be the catchy phrase for this approach...). Cheers, Justus Sure, i'm with you 110% :-) -- Daniele ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
I think the concept behind quickwriting is unrelated to the numbers of zones but the way you use them to write. http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/experiments/quikwriting/ The basic conceit of Quikwriting is that you make a character by moving your pen first out of, and then back into, a central resting done. So drawing a character is sort of like drawing a flower petal. Below is the very first demo I made for it btw, in this page I read also: Then several things happened. Microsoft got interested in it and licensed it from NYU (thereby helping to support our research!) so, I think it's not free :P On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Daniele Ricci daniele.ath...@gmail.com wrote: Cross-posting for broadcasting Justus idea. On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 00:00, Justus Winter 4win...@informatik.uni-hamburg.de wrote: I am also tempted to mail the person(s?) behind 8pen addressing my concerns about his attempt to patent the idea, maybe even challenge his position stating that I would not recognize his claim. I believe the company is based in France (information is a scarce resource on both the 8pen and the companies (3qubits) one, I did a whois query). I'd be very interested whether such a patent is enforceable within the EU... I already did a few days ago; just a couple of mails... the interest part is this: === message received from them === Dear Daniele, In fact we did not know about the Quickwriting method that you have pointed out to us. It strikes us as an incredible coincidence. We're not interested in engaging into a legal debate, but in the development of an efficient alternative to conventional keyboards on small devices. However, intellectual property law does apply, and copying the 8pen does violate it within the scope set by the patent previously referred to. We're not dealing personally with issues that are in conflict with our patent, or that violate it, but we have instead passed them on to the lawyers who have filed it. === my reply Dear Daniele, In fact we did not know about the Quickwriting method that you have pointed out to us. It strikes us as an incredible coincidence. We're not interested in engaging into a legal debate, but in the development of an efficient alternative to conventional keyboards on small devices. Me neither I am interested in a legal debate, I just wanted to let you know that your idea is not original, thus it can't be applied for patenting. Anyway we'll wait for your patent approval. However, intellectual property law does apply, and copying the 8pen does violate it within the scope set by the patent previously referred to. We're not dealing personally with issues that are in conflict with our patent, or that violate it, but we have instead passed them on to the lawyers who have filed it. Of course i won't name my program 8pen for Linux. I guess editing Quickwriting to use 4 zones instead of 9 would violate your patent too? If Quickwriting was easily configurable to change the number of zones, how could this be handled? = end = Would anybody care to join me on this one? We could create a message or a message template and ask everyone send this message to the person behind the 8pen (crowdsourcing seems to be the catchy phrase for this approach...). Cheers, Justus Sure, i'm with you 110% :-) -- Daniele ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Tuesday 16 November 2010, Daniele Ricci wrote: Cross-posting for broadcasting Justus idea. [snip...] On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 00:00, Justus Winter Would anybody care to join me on this one? We could create a message or a message template and ask everyone send this message to the person behind the 8pen (crowdsourcing seems to be the catchy phrase for this approach...). Cheers, Justus Sure, i'm with you 110% :-) Has anyone contacted Ken Perlin or NYU about this yet? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
btw, in this page I read also: Then several things happened. Microsoft got interested in it and licensed it from NYU (thereby helping to support our research!) so, I think it's not free :P Not necessarily. There can be dual licensing, like in MySQP, which would allow for a not-for-profit or open source licensing. You really have to contact the copyright holder or their agent, who in this case seems to be NYU. And whether an implementation transcends their patent is an issue for technologists and lawyers. md ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 12:00, community-requ...@lists.openmoko.org wrote: From: Alfa21-mobile freerun...@my.is.it To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 11:07:51 +0100 Subject: Re: Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting I think the concept behind quickwriting is unrelated to the numbers of zones but the way you use them to write. http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/experiments/quikwriting/ The basic conceit of Quikwriting is that you make a character by moving your pen first out of, and then back into, a central resting done. So drawing a character is sort of like drawing a flower petal. Below is the very first demo I made for it btw, in this page I read also: Then several things happened. Microsoft got interested in it and licensed it from NYU (thereby helping to support our research!) so, I think it's not free :P So I guess that QWO implementation is outlaw... :S REPLY ALL PLEASE! -- Daniele ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Jon 'maddog' Hall mad...@li.org wrote: Not necessarily. There can be dual licensing, like in MySQP, which would allow for a not-for-profit or open source licensing. you are right, but they are not saying it's for free neither. I tried to contact that email address for nyu licensing but it's not an active mailbox :S (bounced email) also tried to email perlin but no response. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
8open didn't seem to be that great of improvement over the standard keypad 2=abc 3=def ... maybe just rearrange the letters on each key so that the more common ones come first On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 4:17 AM, Daniele Ricci daniele.ath...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings, Some weeks ago a new software for Android has come out, the 8pen: http://www.the8pen.com/ the video clearly introduces a modified/simplified version of Quickwriting, an open (ie unpatented) input method invented a few years ago. Now they are trying to put a patent on it, even on variations! This is outrageous, since the idea has already been thought. I think we still apply against this patent, and move for a request to make it void (it's still in pending state). Here is the patent request: http://www.the8pen.com/legal.html Please help the open source community against this ridiculous attempt to make money on an already invented thing. Thanks, -- Daniele Ricci p.s. I already have a working implementation waiting to be pushed, so let's not waste time! :-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
Dnia 2010-11-09, wto o godzinie 08:37 -0700, Jeff Sadowski pisze: 8open didn't seem to be that great of improvement over the standard keypad 2=abc 3=def ... maybe just rearrange the letters on each key so that the more common ones come first anyway, common is relative to used language. If what you is true, than patent should not be granted. -- Patryk LeadMan Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Someone is trying to patent Quickwriting
Greetings, Some weeks ago a new software for Android has come out, the 8pen: http://www.the8pen.com/ the video clearly introduces a modified/simplified version of Quickwriting, an open (ie unpatented) input method invented a few years ago. Now they are trying to put a patent on it, even on variations! This is outrageous, since the idea has already been thought. I think we still apply against this patent, and move for a request to make it void (it's still in pending state). Here is the patent request: http://www.the8pen.com/legal.html Please help the open source community against this ridiculous attempt to make money on an already invented thing. Thanks, -- Daniele Ricci p.s. I already have a working implementation waiting to be pushed, so let's not waste time! :-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
