Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Michele Renda wrote: Il 26/12/2008 14:10, Minh Ha Duong ha scritto: Put it on the wiki, but please do find a better place for it rather than Email not to lose ! I accept any suggestion! How about the FAQ wiki page? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ OTOH it's highly cluttered right now and it needs (IMVHO) clean-up. Kind regards, -- Lech Karol Pawłaszek ike You will never see me fall from grace [KoRn] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
I think this email is giving a lot of explanation. Is ok to put this on Wiki? (In a section Email not to lose?) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Le vendredi 26 décembre 2008, Michele Renda a écrit : I think this email is giving a lot of explanation. Is ok to put this on Wiki? (In a section Email not to lose?) Put it on the wiki, but please do find a better place for it rather than Email not to lose ! Minh -- Minh HA DUONG, Chargé de Recherche, CNRS CIRED, Centre International de Recherches sur l'Environnement et le Développement http://minh.haduong.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Il 26/12/2008 14:10, Minh Ha Duong ha scritto: Put it on the wiki, but please do find a better place for it rather than Email not to lose ! I accept any suggestion! Reading all the email, I found a lot of email where some people give very important informations,that I think some other people can be interested on. I too don't like the title Email not to lose, so please, who have suggestion, please reply here. It just want to be a list of link with date and a brief description. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Am 26.12.2008 um 13:16 schrieb Michele Renda: Il 26/12/2008 14:10, Minh Ha Duong ha scritto: Put it on the wiki, but please do find a better place for it rather than Email not to lose ! I accept any suggestion! What about Stage of GTA03 development ? Reading all the email, I found a lot of email where some people give very important informations,that I think some other people can be interested on. I too don't like the title Email not to lose, so please, who have suggestion, please reply here. It just want to be a list of link with date and a brief description. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Il 26/12/2008 14:32, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller ha scritto: What about Stage of GTA03 development ? It seem to be a better name (but it think it will be more gossip than a stage of GTA03), Until now Iwould like to add there two items: http://n2.nabble.com/forum/Permalink.jtp?root=1664400post=1803187page=y http://n2.nabble.com/forum/Permalink.jtp?root=1664400post=1672599page=y ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Dear Michele, Put it on the wiki, but please do find a better place for it rather than Email not to lose ! Reading all the email, I found a lot of email where some people give very important informations,that I think some other people can be interested on. It just want to be a list of link with date and a brief description. May I kindly suggest that the community newsletter is a good place to add links with a brief description of important emails ? Here is the draft of the next issue, help is immensely appreciated: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/December_29th%2C_2008 Hommages distingués, Minh ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Il 26/12/2008 20:14, hadu...@centre-cired.fr ha scritto: May I kindly suggest that the community newsletter is a good place to add links with a brief description of important emails ? Here is the draft of the next issue, help is immensely appreciated: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/December_29th%2C_2008 Yes, this is what I had in my mind. I was knowing about the community updates, but I was not knowing that them were saved in a wiki. So I think is better, when I see something interesting, I can simply add this to the wiki. Thank you Michele Renda ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
El Jueves, 25 de Diciembre de 2008, Carsten Haitzler escribió: actually the cpu (soc) and graphics are about as old-school as the 2g gprs. :) definitely far from state of the art. only things on freerunner that are modern are: LCD GPS Wifi BT case design (sorry the indented screen is very old-school and severely limits the finger-usability of the device - which as it has no stylus that is part of it... is the intended use). :) USB-host is an unseen feature for a phone. The mini-usb connector without an adapter doesn't help very much, but FR supports it. Usb drives, keyboards, (ethernet/3g/camera/tv) dongles, headset, arduinos, printers, and more. This makes FR the perfect pluggable gadget. For example, cameras like this (but with mini-usb) would be a good complement for existing FR: http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/en/news-12994- The+Volvox+USB+webcam+key.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
WRT the hole. I have visit the emergency room to get stitches in my tongue. happy hole e days fla...@correo.ugr.es wrote: Evgeny Karyakin wrote: Dunno... First link propose a case suggesting iPhone look, I think we shouldn't follow everything Apple come out with, and I second to pill case. When I first saw GTA02 look, I thought it's ugly, but that was just because it's unusual; now I like it and like a bottom hole around antenna. The hole is important. You can tie the phone to a string. And it is easier for the do-it-yourselfers to make brackets for car/bicycle use. Furthermore, the hole has become, in my opinion, a symbol of the phone. A powerful image. I think it could be powered as a distinctive trait in marketing. [About keyboard] All that you said makes a lot of sense to me. Also, I haven't missed a physical keyboard on the freerunner, if anyone cares. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Thanks Dr. H.N. you put it all very well. I'll inline some additions. Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Leonti, sorry I was a bit too ironical in my answer. So let me explain. Nikolaus Am 17.12.2008 um 15:24 schrieb Leonti Bielski: Nikolaus, I don't get what's wrong with my questions? Nothing is wrong with the questions. Only expecting precise answers from the project team before there is an official annoucement of a new device. That is what I allude to with my comments. I have no inside information but I know from other such projects that there is not really a decision being taken at a certain time that can be published before the first samples come out of the factory. It is always possible in such projects to have late changes and revise some previously done decisions. E.g. making the device a little larger. Removing a camera because the supplier can't deliver etc. For the GTA01 and 02 the OM hardware team has been more open - but they also had to discuss endlessly about changed decisions and slipping time schedules. This draws a lot of attention from the real project and does not help to make it faster. There is sort of a rule I've tried to get people to adopt and that rule is are you certain? that is, I don't think we should say things until we are relatively ( wiggle room) certain about the details of the product. Acting otherwise just raises expectations that are universally dashed. It's an osborne effect squared. There are critical milestones That everyone who followed the launch of Freerunner should remember. I showed the phone at CES jan 07. we were just entering DVT. design verification test. DVT, you can HOPE, will last about 2 months for a given product. Then comes PVT, production verification test, likewise lasting two months.. YOU CAN HOPE. finally comes MP, mass production. Again, you can HOPE this is about two months from start to first phones out. So. Month X start DVT month X+2 start PVT Month X+4 start MP Month X+6 FCS ( first customer ship) Month X+6.5 Shelf date. That is a NOMINAL schedule. During any phase of this schedule design changes both major and minor can occur. The probability of changes goes down from month X. ordinarily I start to feel comfortable around month X. I'm not at that point. In addition, there are other schedule drivers. 1. State of the software. suffice it to say GTA02 shipped a wee bit early WRT to software stability and completeness. That will change with GTA03. With Freerunner we were really pulled in two directions, pulled in one direction by the 'release early, release often philosophy and pulled in the other direction by our desire to ship something that was more consumer ready than the Neo1973. This time around we will err on the side of consumer ready. The back to the basics approach will rule in GTA03. 2. The state of Freerunner. Not many know this but the GTA03 schedule has taken hits so that we could support the Freerunner better. That's an on going concern and a balancing act. In the end it is a no win decision. That is, on one hand some will demand that each and every Freerunner issue be settled and on the other hand some will want their GTA03 ASAP. Sean, Wolfgang and I own that decision and the inevitable and righteous complaints that result from it. It goes with the territory. 3. the state of the channel. One major difference this year is we have partners with businesses, our distributors. If they don't sell, we don't sell. That entails several things that people may not be aware of. Let me explain. First and foremost the disty will be part of the launch early on. they will get phones to test early in the process. Their feedback about the stability of the software and the marketing plans and messages will be vital. If it's not ready in their eyes, then that's critical feedback. Secondly, the disty have to have a good freerunner business to make for a good GTA03 business. Market development , like product development, has its bugs ( hmm maybe a trac system is in order...) So from a marketing perspective we will be putting additional effort into the Freerunner to improve the strength of the channel. It's good to remember that since Jan of 2007 we had to build a phone and a sales channel, no small feat. Luckily we have community support on all fronts. Now, since this is an open source project everybody wants to be included on every decision. Much as I would like to implement a direct democracy WRT to every LOC, every trace on the PCB, every resistor and cap, every subtle curve in the ID, every boss and screw in the mech design, lines of responsibility are inevitably required to get things done. The compromise we have chosen is one that allows people to change the decisions we have to take. Change the code if they like, change the ID if they like. And with the right program in place we even allow people to change the EE design if they like. There is, I
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
I don't care for 3G. GSM is a crappy technology here in the states (I blame the implementors). We have flat data rates for a variety of reasons. Additionally, why are we expecting 3G from OM, they are having a hard time getting a phone right. Why are we holding them to the same standards as Apple, HTC, etc... Apple can't get 3G in the iPhone for two years. Their hardware staff is probably a thousand times bigger than the 2 guys working on mokoforesight right now. (Based on the assumption they have 2000 people doing hardware, including vendors, and contractors. Give OM a break. Please On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Milos Mandaric mi...@manda.com.ba wrote: U Uto, 23. 12. 2008., u 20:24 -0800, Sargun Dhillon je napisao/la: Quick thing, what are you guys calling 3G. EDGE is considered 3G by the terrible company by the name of Apple, but as a CDMA (EV-DO) user, I consider UMTS/HS?PA as 3G. Please clarify. -Thanks. On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Milos Mandaric mi...@manda.com.ba wrote: U Sri, 24. 12. 2008., u 15:02 +1100, Ben je napisao/la: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. You should mention what country you're in, as you can see, it makes a big difference. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I live in Bosnia and here there is no 3G, so I don't need it at all! :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community When I am talking about 3G, I am thinking about UMTS/HS?PA. I have EDGE. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Sargun Dhillon xbmodder+openm...@gmail.comxbmodder%2bopenm...@gmail.com wrote: I don't care for 3G. GSM is a crappy technology here in the states (I blame the implementors). We have flat data rates for a variety of reasons. Additionally, why are we expecting 3G from OM, they are having a hard time getting a phone right. Why are we holding them to the same standards as Apple, HTC, etc... Apple can't get 3G in the iPhone for two years. Their hardware staff is probably a thousand times bigger than the 2 guys working on mokoforesight right now. (Based on the assumption they have 2000 people doing hardware, including vendors, and contractors. Give OM a break. Please Also if there are reports of 3G dongles working well with the Freerunner, please post them on this list/ wiki. Resellers can start stocking them if the demand is there. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
rakshat hooja wrote: Also if there are reports of 3G dongles working well with the Freerunner, please post them on this list/ wiki. Resellers can start stocking them if the demand is there. Rakshat AAH! I don't want to have to have a dongle, probably with a separate contract, in order to use 3G from my phone. That is the worst possible outcome for an openmoko data connection. I want my phone to BE my 3G dongle, so I have a decent smartphone with a good connection speed, good 3G coverage for calls AND can use the connection from my laptop, preferably via bluetooth. Screw it, I'll buy a mass produced android next time. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Stage-of-GTA03-development--tp1664400p1745374.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Sargun Dhillon wrote: Additionally, why are we expecting 3G from OM, they are having a hard time getting a phone right. Why are we holding them to the same standards as Apple, HTC, etc... Apple can't get 3G in the iPhone for two years. For which they were heavily criticised because smartphones (and not so smart phones) in Europe had had 3G for years. 3G is not a special feature any more, it's pretty basic in most handsets. The FR, with it's all-touchscreen interface and open nature *could* be forgiven for not having 3G. It's a shortcoming, but it's forgiveable when so much of the rest was at least near the state of the art - Linux, GPS, uSDHC etc. If 03 is released in a year or so without 3G it will have fallen way behind, especially as the touch screen control is no longer unusual. If the hardware is fixed at this point then, well, sorry, but OM ought to revise it. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Stage-of-GTA03-development--tp1664400p1752249.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Gothnet openm...@nastylittlehorse.netwrote: rakshat hooja wrote: Also if there are reports of 3G dongles working well with the Freerunner, please post them on this list/ wiki. Resellers can start stocking them if the demand is there. Rakshat AAH! I don't want to have to have a dongle, probably with a separate contract, in order to use 3G from my phone. That is the worst possible outcome for an openmoko data connection. I want my phone to BE my 3G dongle, so I have a decent smartphone with a good connection speed, good 3G coverage for calls AND can use the connection from my laptop, preferably via bluetooth. Screw it, I'll buy a mass produced android next time. I am talking about GTA 02 and people who already own it and need to use 3G. GTA 02 does not have 3G built in sorry if if this was not clear in my mail Rakshat -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Stage-of-GTA03-development--tp1664400p1745374.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- -- Please use Firefox as your web browser. Its protects you from spyware and is also a very feature rich browser. www.firefox.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
rakshat hooja wrote: I am talking about GTA 02 and people who already own it and need to use 3G. GTA 02 does not have 3G built in sorry if if this was not clear in my mail Rakshat Sorry, thought you were suggesting it as a get-out-of-jail-free for OM and 3G on the 03. If you need it now then sure, that might be an idea. Personally, my focus on the FR is having a phone that works... -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Stage-of-GTA03-development--tp1664400p1758082.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Man, I really don't care for 3G. I don't know if the GTA03 is going to be slated on a production-quality phone, but for development purposes, and as a device which I can use as a general purpose embedded projects base, 3G doesn't matter. If I want data speeds, I'm going to veer away from GSM, as GSM speeds will not touch CDMA providers (at least in the USA). I'd like a user-upgradeable model, but in the end it doesn't really matter. I'd prefer a cheaper, better quality phone, that comes out soon. On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 6:12 AM, Gothnet openm...@nastylittlehorse.net wrote: rakshat hooja wrote: I am talking about GTA 02 and people who already own it and need to use 3G. GTA 02 does not have 3G built in sorry if if this was not clear in my mail Rakshat Sorry, thought you were suggesting it as a get-out-of-jail-free for OM and 3G on the 03. If you need it now then sure, that might be an idea. Personally, my focus on the FR is having a phone that works... -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Stage-of-GTA03-development--tp1664400p1758082.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 05:19:02 -0800 (PST) Gothnet openm...@nastylittlehorse.net babbled: Sargun Dhillon wrote: Additionally, why are we expecting 3G from OM, they are having a hard time getting a phone right. Why are we holding them to the same standards as Apple, HTC, etc... Apple can't get 3G in the iPhone for two years. For which they were heavily criticised because smartphones (and not so smart phones) in Europe had had 3G for years. 3G is not a special feature any more, it's pretty basic in most handsets. The FR, with it's all-touchscreen interface and open nature *could* be forgiven for not having 3G. It's a shortcoming, but it's forgiveable when so much of the rest was at least near the state of the art - Linux, GPS, uSDHC etc. actually the cpu (soc) and graphics are about as old-school as the 2g gprs. :) definitely far from state of the art. only things on freerunner that are modern are: LCD GPS Wifi BT case design (sorry the indented screen is very old-school and severely limits the finger-usability of the device - which as it has no stylus that is part of it... is the intended use). :) the rest.. is far behind. :) just trying to keep rumourmill from making it seem better than it is... :) If 03 is released in a year or so without 3G it will have fallen way behind, especially as the touch screen control is no longer unusual. If the hardware is fixed at this point then, well, sorry, but OM ought to revise it. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Stage-of-GTA03-development--tp1664400p1752249.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
well ... in tree years 3g chipsets will down the price ;), and also 8 Mpx cameras will be cheap XD, even microprojectors maybe affordable. Sean then I have time to teach kernel hacking to my two years daughter to hack the GTA04 2008/12/23 Sean Moss-Pultz s...@openmoko.com: On 12/23/08 AVee wrote: Regardless, there may well be a Reverse Osborne Effect as well, I bought a Freerunner, but right now I probably wouldn't buy one again, but wait for the GTA03. If there was a definitive statement telling me that would take at least an other year to get done I might just buy a GTA02. GTA03 is at least 3 years away. Do you want to buy three GTA02s now? ;-) -Sean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- David Reyes Samblas Martinez http://www.tuxbrain.com Open ultraportable solutions Openmoko, Openpandora, GP2X the Wiz, Letux 400 Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Helge Hafting wrote: Making a good small lens is not a problem, a good small sensor is. Japanese tourists may be satisfied, but perhaps they just aren't that good photographers. Small-sensor images can be reasonable under ideal lighting conditions, but hopeless for most other cases. But then, tourists go where the sun is. To use an internet cliche you're doing it wrong. Most people aren't good photographers, Japanese or otherwise. Neither do they care. Look at the sales of disposable cameras before digital came along. The quality of photography is just not the point. You want a decent resolution, sure, but if they come out a bit blurry or badly lit? Who cares? I'm snapping stuff that doesn't matter but might be cute if it comes out ok, the dog looking at me funny, the family in front of an amusing road sign, a shop with an amusing name, some people at a birthday part in a restaurant In fact the act of taking the photo is probably more important than the result most of the time. To others arguing about cameras and no camera, I can't have one at work - please recognise that you are a tiny, tiny minority. Many more people don't care about cameras in their phones, many more do, but those for whom it's actually an obstruction are really an insignificant market sector. And the I just want a phone that works and does nothing but make calls crowd won't be looking at Neo anyway. As to whether camera or 3g should be a priority? Both, IMHO. 3G is an absolute must for the gta03, without it it's just a phone with a lousy connection most of the time. Or would be if I could be bothered to try getting GPRS working... -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Stage-of-GTA03-development--tp1664400p1694101.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote We perhaps will be most surprised how much a 3G modem will cost... If you live in an Australian city to get reliable coverage you need to be with 3 or Telstra, the competitors don't cut it. 3 is about 1/10th the cost of Telstra (2G or 3G). For data, 3G services from any provider are MUCH cheaper than their 2G services, about 1/10th-1/100th or better of the cost. So the cost of the modem is almost trivial when your phone and data bill is fraction of the cost. In Australian country areas the only network with good coverage is Telstra NextG - it runs on 3G 850MHz. It covers 99% of the population compared with about 96% of the nearest competitor (probably about 1/20th the land area). If you want a reliable phone in Australia it HAS to be 3G. In my apartment, in a city, I am 100m from a mobile phone tower and 1km from a very major train station. I can only get a reliable signal with 3 or Telstra, other networks drop out all the time. Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. You should mention what country you're in, as you can see, it makes a big difference. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
U Sri, 24. 12. 2008., u 15:02 +1100, Ben je napisao/la: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. You should mention what country you're in, as you can see, it makes a big difference. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I live in Bosnia and here there is no 3G, so I don't need it at all! :) signature.asc Description: Dio poruke sa digitalnim potpisom ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Quick thing, what are you guys calling 3G. EDGE is considered 3G by the terrible company by the name of Apple, but as a CDMA (EV-DO) user, I consider UMTS/HS?PA as 3G. Please clarify. -Thanks. On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Milos Mandaric mi...@manda.com.ba wrote: U Sri, 24. 12. 2008., u 15:02 +1100, Ben je napisao/la: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. You should mention what country you're in, as you can see, it makes a big difference. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I live in Bosnia and here there is no 3G, so I don't need it at all! :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:24:01 -0800 Sargun Dhillon xbmodder +openm...@gmail.com babbled: 3g == umts+ (hd*pa etc.) Quick thing, what are you guys calling 3G. EDGE is considered 3G by the terrible company by the name of Apple, but as a CDMA (EV-DO) user, I consider UMTS/HS?PA as 3G. Please clarify. -Thanks. On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Milos Mandaric mi...@manda.com.ba wrote: U Sri, 24. 12. 2008., u 15:02 +1100, Ben je napisao/la: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. You should mention what country you're in, as you can see, it makes a big difference. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I live in Bosnia and here there is no 3G, so I don't need it at all! :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
U Uto, 23. 12. 2008., u 20:24 -0800, Sargun Dhillon je napisao/la: Quick thing, what are you guys calling 3G. EDGE is considered 3G by the terrible company by the name of Apple, but as a CDMA (EV-DO) user, I consider UMTS/HS?PA as 3G. Please clarify. -Thanks. On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Milos Mandaric mi...@manda.com.ba wrote: U Sri, 24. 12. 2008., u 15:02 +1100, Ben je napisao/la: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org wrote Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. You should mention what country you're in, as you can see, it makes a big difference. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I live in Bosnia and here there is no 3G, so I don't need it at all! :) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community When I am talking about 3G, I am thinking about UMTS/HS?PA. I have EDGE. signature.asc Description: Dio poruke sa digitalnim potpisom ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Gothnet wrote: 3G is an absolute must for the gta03, without it it's just a phone with a lousy connection most of the time. Or would be if I could be bothered to try getting GPRS working... I'm pretty sure the specs for GTA03 are set and it's 2.75G / edge. 3G will be in GTA04 at the earliest. 3G will be an option only when there is a 3G chipset with interface documentation that's not under NDA. Ben. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
that's a shame, guess I'll have to get an android then, as the minimum requirement for a phone for me is that I can call people on it, and in Australia, that means 3G if you want good coverage and/or a good price. On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Ben Wilson b...@abcom.co.nz wrote: Gothnet wrote: 3G is an absolute must for the gta03, without it it's just a phone with a lousy connection most of the time. Or would be if I could be bothered to try getting GPRS working... I'm pretty sure the specs for GTA03 are set and it's 2.75G / edge. 3G will be in GTA04 at the earliest. 3G will be an option only when there is a 3G chipset with interface documentation that's not under NDA. Ben. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
This is all very interesting (and sad, of course). 2008/12/22 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com: less than 1/3 the cost. as best i know anyone selling pre-made 3g modules so you dont have to set up your own production is charging in the range of $100-$300 per module (depending who you go to and the volume you buy). this is where someone developed the module (did what nokia/apple etc. do) and now re-sell their work. 1-offs i have seen for sale for $250 or so for a 3g module. buy in bulk and you get a discount of course (thus the $100-$300 range). and the fewer suppliers in between the better. The Telit UC864-G mentioned on the MokoForesight page is a global 3.5G module with built-in GPS. I don't know of it's actual suitability for OM. http://www.telit.com/en/products/umts-hsdpa.php?p_id=14p_ac=showp=14 This company, Round Solutions, sells it: http://www.roundsolutions.com/uc864.htm And they have a price list: http://www.roundsolutions.com/pdf/Price-Modules-GSM.pdf Which lists it at €145 for 100-500 quantity. That is around US $200. Clearly very expensive. But the quantity we are talking about Openmoko buying is at least an order of magnitude larger, so I wonder how much below $200 the module could be bought. And it does integrate the GPS chip (a small saving there though). Anyway, I thought some people might be interested in a solid example with pricing. It is costly, that is for sure. I'd still be interested to see how much the UC864-G costs when buying in bulk of 10K. Can anyone else find figures for this? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Does OM even sell that many units? I thought it was more in the 3-5k range as of now. The Telit module would be nice, but is quite expensive. I've also looked at Sierra, but all their modules are MiniPCI based. One of the neat things about going with a Telit module, would be OM could ship with the 'low-end' modem (GSM/GPRS/EDGE, maybe?), and it would be user-upgradeable to a 3/3G/CDMA module. Additionally, if Telit puts out new modules in the future, we could just purchase those and stick them in our phones. It'd be nice if OpenMoko resold them at a discounted price of course :-). I understand the antenna problem, and RF issues. We would have to figure out a way to make that work. For now: I am very happy with the choice of the mc75i. On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 3:50 AM, Justyn Butler justynbutler+openm...@googlemail.com wrote: This is all very interesting (and sad, of course). 2008/12/22 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com: less than 1/3 the cost. as best i know anyone selling pre-made 3g modules so you dont have to set up your own production is charging in the range of $100-$300 per module (depending who you go to and the volume you buy). this is where someone developed the module (did what nokia/apple etc. do) and now re-sell their work. 1-offs i have seen for sale for $250 or so for a 3g module. buy in bulk and you get a discount of course (thus the $100-$300 range). and the fewer suppliers in between the better. The Telit UC864-G mentioned on the MokoForesight page is a global 3.5G module with built-in GPS. I don't know of it's actual suitability for OM. http://www.telit.com/en/products/umts-hsdpa.php?p_id=14p_ac=showp=14 This company, Round Solutions, sells it: http://www.roundsolutions.com/uc864.htm And they have a price list: http://www.roundsolutions.com/pdf/Price-Modules-GSM.pdf Which lists it at €145 for 100-500 quantity. That is around US $200. Clearly very expensive. But the quantity we are talking about Openmoko buying is at least an order of magnitude larger, so I wonder how much below $200 the module could be bought. And it does integrate the GPS chip (a small saving there though). Anyway, I thought some people might be interested in a solid example with pricing. It is costly, that is for sure. I'd still be interested to see how much the UC864-G costs when buying in bulk of 10K. Can anyone else find figures for this? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:50:33 + Justyn Butler justynbutler +openm...@googlemail.com babbled: thanks for the good numeric example. as you see - it's pretty much the ballpark i was talking about - and yes - u'd get a discount, but you may find the $200 goes to $100 - at best if u order 1k most likeley - more likely $120 or so. to get below that as best i know, you need to do your own module yourself - not buy a pre-made one, and thats when you make a leap into needing 100's of thousands of units at a minimum - if not a million to 10 million or so. only then can you begin to really compete. i know it sucks :( but as of right now - it's a reality of the game. not to mention companies like nokia own a raft of 3g patents (one of the reasons its so expensive is the patent nightmare surrounding it). now think of it this way - imagine 80% of the cost of a 3g module is patent fees (i imagine it is) or profit on patent fees if resold. hardware isnt that incredible - but the IP on top of it it is the costly thing. now if you are nokia and own lets say... 30% of the patents in 3g... you may pay $20 per unit in royalites but really - $6 of the $20 just goes right back into your pocket - so your money goes from pocket A to pocket B - now that $30 part just went down to $24. not bad eh? :) This is all very interesting (and sad, of course). 2008/12/22 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com: less than 1/3 the cost. as best i know anyone selling pre-made 3g modules so you dont have to set up your own production is charging in the range of $100-$300 per module (depending who you go to and the volume you buy). this is where someone developed the module (did what nokia/apple etc. do) and now re-sell their work. 1-offs i have seen for sale for $250 or so for a 3g module. buy in bulk and you get a discount of course (thus the $100-$300 range). and the fewer suppliers in between the better. The Telit UC864-G mentioned on the MokoForesight page is a global 3.5G module with built-in GPS. I don't know of it's actual suitability for OM. http://www.telit.com/en/products/umts-hsdpa.php?p_id=14p_ac=showp=14 This company, Round Solutions, sells it: http://www.roundsolutions.com/uc864.htm And they have a price list: http://www.roundsolutions.com/pdf/Price-Modules-GSM.pdf Which lists it at €145 for 100-500 quantity. That is around US $200. Clearly very expensive. But the quantity we are talking about Openmoko buying is at least an order of magnitude larger, so I wonder how much below $200 the module could be bought. And it does integrate the GPS chip (a small saving there though). Anyway, I thought some people might be interested in a solid example with pricing. It is costly, that is for sure. I'd still be interested to see how much the UC864-G costs when buying in bulk of 10K. Can anyone else find figures for this? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Wednesday 17 December 2008 02:36, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:31:01 -0800 Sargun Dhillon xbmodder +openm...@gmail.com babbled: you might want to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect this killed an entire company - it ceased to exist. again. regardless of what you want - it makes no business sense to go parading around the next gen device before its ready to ship if you have an existing one. so you'll have to probably just sit and wait. :) Totally true, except for the fact that it didn't happen... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06/20/no_osborne_effect_at_osborne/ Linked on that wikipedia page... Regardless, there may well be a Reverse Osborne Effect as well, I bought a Freerunner, but right now I probably wouldn't buy one again, but wait for the GTA03. If there was a definitive statement telling me that would take at least an other year to get done I might just buy a GTA02. And ofcourse there is the 'spend-money-only-once' syndrom, does it really matter if I buy a GTA02, or a GTA03 if I will never buy both anyway? People with plenty of money to spend on gadgets probably won't wait, people wo will wait probably won't by both anyway. But than again, I know nothing about marketing... AVee -- With/Without - and who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about? -- Pink Floyd ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On 12/23/08 AVee wrote: Regardless, there may well be a Reverse Osborne Effect as well, I bought a Freerunner, but right now I probably wouldn't buy one again, but wait for the GTA03. If there was a definitive statement telling me that would take at least an other year to get done I might just buy a GTA02. GTA03 is at least 3 years away. Do you want to buy three GTA02s now? ;-) -Sean ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: seriously dropping camera isn't going to free up money for 3g. 3g is going to cost many many many TIMES what the camera does. you're throwing out the basketballs from the garage to make room for the hummer. Mhmhmh... I'm not in that world at all. Please could you explain why a 3G chip would cost so much? Thanks... -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Justyn Butler wrote: 2008/12/18 Michael Zanetti michael_zane...@gmx.net: As It seems this thread is becoming more and more some sort of a whish-list, I will put my 2ct here also: - Please don't add a camera: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? Get a real camera if you want to make some nice pictures! There is just one way to get a useful camera within a mobile phone: Using very expensive optical lens and zooming technologies. But in that case, I'd prefer to use the money for a 3G modem which brings me to the next point in my whishlist. I think this is a misunderstanding of the concept of having a camera in a phone. For many people it is the convenience of *always* having a camera on them. Who knows when you need to take a picture? It doesn't matter if the picture sucks - they have a real camera for quality photos. But they don't have it on them all the time. +1 I say this as someone who would personally gladly do without the camera in place of 3G. But doing this might turn off a whole other group of people, because some sort of camera is such an expected thing in a phone these days. +1 -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
U Pon, 22. 12. 2008., u 03:19 +0100, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) je napisao/la: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: seriously dropping camera isn't going to free up money for 3g. 3g is going to cost many many many TIMES what the camera does. you're throwing out the basketballs from the garage to make room for the hummer. Mhmhmh... I'm not in that world at all. Please could you explain why a 3G chip would cost so much? Thanks... I think somebody said that license for 3g is very expensive. signature.asc Description: Dio poruke sa digitalnim potpisom ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 03:19:30 +0100 Marco Trevisan (Treviño) m...@3v1n0.net babbled: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: seriously dropping camera isn't going to free up money for 3g. 3g is going to cost many many many TIMES what the camera does. you're throwing out the basketballs from the garage to make room for the hummer. Mhmhmh... I'm not in that world at all. Please could you explain why a 3G chip would cost so much? because the only chips available in low volume (like 5k, 10k, 20k) cost a LOT. if you want high volume you cant buy a low-cost module, you need to develop it yourself from the original schematics - and then pay a license fee. there is an initial cost just to get started before you develop a single unit - this is in the millions range. (depending who you go to). then you pay PER chip in the range of $10-$50 LICENSE fees - you STILL have to manufacture the module yourself too. so not including your own manufacturing setup costs. now let's talk the volumes of freerunner. it's in the 10k's range (10, 20, 30 at most). lets assume 20k over 12 months (low but need to be conservative). let's assume the LOW end of $1mil license. lets assume we have $20/unit license. lets assume a further $500k module production setup fee. lets assume a further $10/module production cost (production, testing, qa, all oveheads). 1m / 20k = $50 / unit 500k / 20k = $25 / unit production setup costs + $20 / unit license fee + $10 / unit production costs -- $105 / 3g modem thats for 20,000 units. nokia and apple get to play the mass production game. its not 20k - its 2million units or 5million or 10million or more. so the equation is more like: 1m / 10m = $0.1 / unit 500k / 10m = $0.05 /unit + $20 + $10 -- $30.15 / unit. less than 1/3 the cost. as best i know anyone selling pre-made 3g modules so you dont have to set up your own production is charging in the range of $100-$300 per module (depending who you go to and the volume you buy). this is where someone developed the module (did what nokia/apple etc. do) and now re-sell their work. 1-offs i have seen for sale for $250 or so for a 3g module. buy in bulk and you get a discount of course (thus the $100-$300 range). and the fewer suppliers in between the better. of course i am talking ballpark figures - these are not exact nor do not indicate any particular chip or manufacturer. but they are about ballpark right. when you are apple and come and want to make 12m iphones - you get a DAMN good price as you invest the money in doing your own 3g module run (based on others original designs). also there are license fees you pay per PRODUCT that uses 3g (a % of the total cost of the product) - but i am not up on the details of these. again - these are BALLPARK figures and intended to demonstrate how when you do low-volume things like the freerunner you are in deep trouble trying to compete - it's EXTREMELY HARD. i make no representation as to if this matches any chip or is an amalgam of several and is even 100% accurate - or close. but it is intended as an illustration of the kinds of costs you have to deal with. you really need to give openmoko a break - or find a lot more open phone customers willing to buy millions of open linux phones. now remember - this is adding to the baseline COST. for every $ spent in cost, om needs to try make a profit. to cover development costs, support, etc. etc. - this is the only way you will also see it at a discount later. ie they lower their profit when the device becomes obsolete and to do so u need a profit margin to start with. so maybe you will take your component/base hw cost and double it - that's retail. so... add a $100 part - see phone cost go up by $200. of course if you are in the cut-throat retail channel business where you are selling millions of devices each year and trying to compete with the $0 free phone with your plan competitor - you shave profit margins a lot, but on small-volume devices like the freerunner you need high margins to support a company. as volumes go up - margins can come down - like pretty much everything as the many of the same overhead costs apply to selling 20k freerunner as do selling 10m freerunners, so not per unit. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Thank you for your very clear explanation. Michele Renda ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Friday 19 December 2008 02:10:59 W.Kenworthy wrote: Actually, please add a camera. Many techos (that is those who work in technical areas) use the mobile phone camera in their work. I.e., photos of situations, faults etc for reference/passing on to support etc. Only one device to carry, and its always with you. Yes early ones were barely adequate (I used a Palm treo for this), but others moved onto nokias etc when they came with better cameras. The other side: Many techos (especially those working in automotive branch) are not even allowed to use mobile phones with cameras at work... I know... In the end it is a personal preference... But I still stand on my opinion that the camera is the last important thing that we need. When we have 3G connectivity I will stop ranting against cameras :) And how many controversial situations hit the news where a mobile phone camera was used as its on the spot and available? Again... personal preferences... But I really hate such stories where some low-end-prominence got captured in somewhat not situation by some idiot with his mobile phone camera where you can hardly think of what it should be because the picture is totally underexposed... It really makes me sick that people don't have better things to do... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Lets add another information layer to open street map, containing | discovered or already-tried-but-failed wpa-keys. Then each gta03 | synchronize with the current state of your home town and start trying | some new keys in the neighbourhood as we walk around. That's quite terrifying new take on distributed attack :-O - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklLaBIACgkQOjLpvpq7dMrGIgCeMwKdw/x4W4Kv0paMLy6xjgxY lV8An2Rj64bw6ZZDF0go4G6wFz5Q4lSm =YzOI -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
2008/12/19 Andreas Pokorny andreas.poko...@gmail.com: Lets add another information layer to open street map, containing discovered or already-tried-but-failed wpa-keys. Then each gta03 synchronize with the current state of your home town and start trying some new keys in the neighbourhood as we walk around. -1 (I don't think this list should appear to condone illegal and/or immoral activity!) Neil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Hello, 2008/12/19 Neil Jerram neiljer...@googlemail.com: 2008/12/19 Andreas Pokorny andreas.poko...@gmail.com: Lets add another information layer to open street map, containing discovered or already-tried-but-failed wpa-keys. Then each gta03 synchronize with the current state of your home town and start trying some new keys in the neighbourhood as we walk around. -1 (I don't think this list should appear to condone illegal and/or immoral activity!) This is of course just a theoretical idea. Thank god, for this to be a real danger for us, a lot of people have to do that. Anyhow as a owner of private wlan router, I already started to change my keys more often these days. kind regards, Andreas Pokorny ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:52:51 +0100 Helge Hafting helge.haft...@hist.no babbled: but more to the point - travel around japan. watch people on holiday (the japanese) or watch them when they travel. guess what the camera of choice is that they pull out? not their nikon d80 or canon ixus or whatever. it's their phone. they are always taking tonnes of photos with their phones. it's probably the most used type of camera (if comparing against compact cams + dslr's) by quote a margin. and they are happy with it. Making a good small lens is not a problem, a good small sensor is. Japanese tourists may be satisfied, but perhaps they just aren't that good photographers. Small-sensor images can be reasonable under ideal lighting conditions, but hopeless for most other cases. But then, tourists go where the sun is. the problem is - if you make it optional it all becomes more expensive as you need to have multiple production lines and multiple case designs - in the end its CHEAPER to ship a camera for everyone. that's the reality of the embedded market. I see. Well, you can have the same case and just provide a lid for the camera-shaped hole. If camera for all really is cheaper, consider putting it on a plug. Users who really don't want (or aren't allowed) a camera can then remove it themselves without de-soldering or breaking warranty. And of course, a pop-out camera leaves room that can be used for something else. Such as room for several SD-cards, perhaps even that secondary SIM option. More SDcards is good - one for the OS and one that can be changed with the system running. (Or RAID, for the specially interested :-) Two SIMs are what business users want - one for private use and one for company use. moving parts == bad. prone to failure/break - even at production time as testing may say go but the part loosens during shipping as its intended to be loose/move. it's something makers like to avoid if they can. Something pluggable isn't that bad - we have plugs for USB and headset anyway. :-) Perhaps a modular phone is too expensive, it'd still be nice with a slot for an extra card. No moving parts, just a slot similiar to a cheap card reader. And accessible without removing the battery, so a reboot won't be needed. There are other phones with such a slot, it sure isn't impossible. High-speed USB and a fast interface to the card would come in useful too - the phone used as a card reader for the pc should match the speed of any other card reader. Software would launch quicker too. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Joel Newkirk wrote: Unfortunately there are also those in technical areas who are prohibited from having a camera in the workplace. There are other situations where it's prohibited (at least in my experience) like courthouses. It's one of those pretty clear-cut you'll never please everyone situations. Both wishes (with/without) are valid with good reasons behind them, but clearly a single device can't deliver both. (without a removable cam, which would then be the pro/anti removable conflict ;) Seems a camera will be ok with most people, as long as it doesn't drive up the price too much. I'd rather have more/faster memory and flash for the money, but that's just me. A modular camera may be too expensice, but how about a user removeable one? Simplify production by having a more cumbersome camera removal procedure, such as: * remove the case completely (camera held in place by the case) * carefully pull camera wiring out of internal connector(s) Hardware hackers might want to plug their own stuff in, a camera leaves behind a connection with nice bandwith. And it is documented... * make a plug for the camera hole out of some flat material, a template can be downloaded from the website. Or make a custom case. * put the case together without the camera component. De-soldering should be avoided, it is too easy to wreck it all. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
2008/12/19 Helge Hafting helge.haft...@hist.no: Something pluggable isn't that bad - we have plugs for USB and headset anyway. :-) Perhaps a modular phone is too expensive, it'd still be nice with a slot for an extra card. No moving parts, just a slot similiar to a cheap card reader. And accessible without removing the battery, so a reboot won't be needed. There are other phones with such a slot, it sure isn't impossible. High-speed USB and a fast interface to the card would come in useful too - the phone used as a card reader for the pc should match the speed of any other card reader. Software would launch quicker too. hmm, i was thinking of writing about how this would still add cost, but sdio would be suitable, and it supports cameras ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 09:44:22 + Neil Jerram neiljer...@googlemail.com babbled: 2008/12/19 Andreas Pokorny andreas.poko...@gmail.com: Lets add another information layer to open street map, containing discovered or already-tried-but-failed wpa-keys. Then each gta03 synchronize with the current state of your home town and start trying some new keys in the neighbourhood as we walk around. -1 (I don't think this list should appear to condone illegal and/or immoral activity!) agreed. it's irresponsible to even suggest the idea. it shows also no respect for privacy and those that own access points they wish to keep private. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On 19 Dec 2008, at 01:10, W.Kenworthy wrote: ... Actually, please add a camera. Many techos (that is those who work in technical areas) use the mobile phone camera in their work. I.e., photos of situations, faults etc for reference/passing on to support etc. Only one device to carry, and its always with you. I have found only one excellent application for a camera phone. When installing Windows, one would be useful for photographing the license sticker, which is often inaccessible ill-lit in the back of the server cabinet. I can then go back to my desk, enter the key using remote desktop or the network KVM, activate validate the installation. This is much more convenient than sticking my head in out of a confined space entering the key 5 digits at a time standing up at the sever rack. Unfortunately, my last phone's camera is inadequate for this, too. It has some kind of flash (or perhaps just a white LED for illumination?) but it is too poor to actually take photos in such dim light. However, a camera has been confirmed for GTA03 and - since cameras are so common on mobile devices - I don't see Openmoko removing this feature without mentioning it. So a thread asking for its addition or removal is really a bit redundant at this stage. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 10:17:40AM +0100, Michael Zanetti wrote: On Friday 19 December 2008 02:10:59 W.Kenworthy wrote: Actually, please add a camera. Many techos (that is those who work in technical areas) use the mobile phone camera in their work. I.e., photos of situations, faults etc for reference/passing on to support etc. Only one device to carry, and its always with you. Yes early ones were barely adequate (I used a Palm treo for this), but others moved onto nokias etc when they came with better cameras. The other side: Many techos (especially those working in automotive branch) are not even allowed to use mobile phones with cameras at work... I know... In the end it is a personal preference... But I still stand on my opinion that the camera is the last important thing that we need. When we have by the time i get around to feeling like i want a phone, im sure ASUS and ACER will have their androind-capable/linux-capable phones out and quite likely, theyll mildly trounce gta03 in price/performance just like netbooks. all over again. does FIc even hav eone? 3G connectivity I will stop ranting against cameras :) And how many controversial situations hit the news where a mobile phone camera was used as its on the spot and available? Again... personal preferences... But I really hate such stories where some low-end-prominence got captured in somewhat not situation by some idiot with his mobile phone camera where you can hardly think of what it should be because the picture is totally underexposed... It really makes me sick that people don't have better things to do... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Am 18.12.2008 um 00:12 schrieb Will Siddall: On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 7:02 PM, Justyn Butler justynbutler+openm...@googlemail.com wrote: Replace the mc75i with a 3.5G modem! Go on, surprise us all! We perhaps will be most surprised how much a 3G modem will cost... I have to agree with Justyn and say that we need a 3G phone. I bought this phone in hopes that I can use it when I travel around. Unfortunately, when I leave the country, it just becomes a toy to play around with and most of the time I have to leave it behind :( Why that? I don't own a 3G phone but a UMTS wireless card for my Mac. My practical experience is: a) in areas (urban) where you have HSDPA speed, you also have WiFi hotspots b) in all other areas (more rural) your connection falls back to GPRS anyway So, a phone that combines GPRS and WiFi is a little more difficult to connect to the correct network but has no dramatically worse connectivity than real 3G. 2 months ago I had to run a VNC connection to my server back home through GPRS. Slowly, but it worked. Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:46:54 +0100 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org babbled: Am 18.12.2008 um 00:12 schrieb Will Siddall: On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 7:02 PM, Justyn Butler justynbutler+openm...@googlemail.com wrote: Replace the mc75i with a 3.5G modem! Go on, surprise us all! We perhaps will be most surprised how much a 3G modem will cost... a 3g modem/module/chipset is REALLY expensive. especially if you have low volume (that means less than a few hundred thousand units). you pay a small fortune in royalties too. I have to agree with Justyn and say that we need a 3G phone. I bought this phone in hopes that I can use it when I travel around. Unfortunately, when I leave the country, it just becomes a toy to play around with and most of the time I have to leave it behind :( Why that? I don't own a 3G phone but a UMTS wireless card for my Mac. My practical experience is: a) in areas (urban) where you have HSDPA speed, you also have WiFi hotspots b) in all other areas (more rural) your connection falls back to GPRS anyway So, a phone that combines GPRS and WiFi is a little more difficult to connect to the correct network but has no dramatically worse connectivity than real 3G. 2 months ago I had to run a VNC connection to my server back home through GPRS. Slowly, but it worked. Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. here is where i'd disagree. i can walk down my street in sydney - 100% of wifi spots are locked (wep/wpa etc.) - no one opens them. yopur choice is spotty wifi hotspots you have to pay for. the other option is 3g (umts/hsdpa etc.) which has pretty good coverage most areas in urban settings - even outside. i think there seems to be some assumption that wifi is so widespread in urban areas (and it comes at a cost equal to or cheaper than 3g datarates). this is not the case in australia. not to mention the datarates for 3g are MUCH less than 2g - they give you a discount for 3g data, but for 2g, it's rap you silly per kilobyte. why? the phone network's 2g data setup was NOT designed for heavy data usage - it's being abused for data and that impacts call quality and the providers will appropriately price the service based on the network ability to provide. so 3g is reasonable. for 2g i will never pay for it as its outragoeus. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
How is UMTS support on GTA03 (read support in Japan)? On Thu, December 18, 2008 10:02, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:46:54 +0100 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org babbled: Am 18.12.2008 um 00:12 schrieb Will Siddall: On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 7:02 PM, Justyn Butler justynbutler+openm...@googlemail.com wrote: Replace the mc75i with a 3.5G modem! Go on, surprise us all! We perhaps will be most surprised how much a 3G modem will cost... a 3g modem/module/chipset is REALLY expensive. especially if you have low volume (that means less than a few hundred thousand units). you pay a small fortune in royalties too. I have to agree with Justyn and say that we need a 3G phone. I bought this phone in hopes that I can use it when I travel around. Unfortunately, when I leave the country, it just becomes a toy to play around with and most of the time I have to leave it behind :( Why that? I don't own a 3G phone but a UMTS wireless card for my Mac. My practical experience is: a) in areas (urban) where you have HSDPA speed, you also have WiFi hotspots b) in all other areas (more rural) your connection falls back to GPRS anyway So, a phone that combines GPRS and WiFi is a little more difficult to connect to the correct network but has no dramatically worse connectivity than real 3G. 2 months ago I had to run a VNC connection to my server back home through GPRS. Slowly, but it worked. Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. here is where i'd disagree. i can walk down my street in sydney - 100% of wifi spots are locked (wep/wpa etc.) - no one opens them. yopur choice is spotty wifi hotspots you have to pay for. the other option is 3g (umts/hsdpa etc.) which has pretty good coverage most areas in urban settings - even outside. i think there seems to be some assumption that wifi is so widespread in urban areas (and it comes at a cost equal to or cheaper than 3g datarates). this is not the case in australia. not to mention the datarates for 3g are MUCH less than 2g - they give you a discount for 3g data, but for 2g, it's rap you silly per kilobyte. why? the phone network's 2g data setup was NOT designed for heavy data usage - it's being abused for data and that impacts call quality and the providers will appropriately price the service based on the network ability to provide. so 3g is reasonable. for 2g i will never pay for it as its outragoeus. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:25:54 +0100 (CET) Pander pan...@users.sourceforge.net babbled: don't know - i dont work on gta03, but i do know in japan there is ONLY 3g+ - no 2g. :) (well pre 3g there were proprietary packet-based networks in japan). How is UMTS support on GTA03 (read support in Japan)? On Thu, December 18, 2008 10:02, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:46:54 +0100 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org babbled: Am 18.12.2008 um 00:12 schrieb Will Siddall: On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 7:02 PM, Justyn Butler justynbutler+openm...@googlemail.com wrote: Replace the mc75i with a 3.5G modem! Go on, surprise us all! We perhaps will be most surprised how much a 3G modem will cost... a 3g modem/module/chipset is REALLY expensive. especially if you have low volume (that means less than a few hundred thousand units). you pay a small fortune in royalties too. I have to agree with Justyn and say that we need a 3G phone. I bought this phone in hopes that I can use it when I travel around. Unfortunately, when I leave the country, it just becomes a toy to play around with and most of the time I have to leave it behind :( Why that? I don't own a 3G phone but a UMTS wireless card for my Mac. My practical experience is: a) in areas (urban) where you have HSDPA speed, you also have WiFi hotspots b) in all other areas (more rural) your connection falls back to GPRS anyway So, a phone that combines GPRS and WiFi is a little more difficult to connect to the correct network but has no dramatically worse connectivity than real 3G. 2 months ago I had to run a VNC connection to my server back home through GPRS. Slowly, but it worked. Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. here is where i'd disagree. i can walk down my street in sydney - 100% of wifi spots are locked (wep/wpa etc.) - no one opens them. yopur choice is spotty wifi hotspots you have to pay for. the other option is 3g (umts/hsdpa etc.) which has pretty good coverage most areas in urban settings - even outside. i think there seems to be some assumption that wifi is so widespread in urban areas (and it comes at a cost equal to or cheaper than 3g datarates). this is not the case in australia. not to mention the datarates for 3g are MUCH less than 2g - they give you a discount for 3g data, but for 2g, it's rap you silly per kilobyte. why? the phone network's 2g data setup was NOT designed for heavy data usage - it's being abused for data and that impacts call quality and the providers will appropriately price the service based on the network ability to provide. so 3g is reasonable. for 2g i will never pay for it as its outragoeus. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
A similar situation in London. Apparently we have the most WiFi hotspots in comparison to other cities [1] but you will have to pay to use the majority of these as they are operated by telecos like BT. [1] http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/29/london-trounces-rest-of-world-in-quest-for-wifi-dominance/ I have a deal to use T-Mobile hotspots but never used them as I just leave my device connected via 3G. The only time I switch to WiFi outside my house is when I am at my local pub which has poor GSM signal and free WiFI. Having said that, the only application I tend to hammer the 3G on is Internet radio. I like to chillax to KCRW on my commute! John. 2008/12/18 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com: [snip] Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. here is where i'd disagree. i can walk down my street in sydney - 100% of wifi spots are locked (wep/wpa etc.) - no one opens them. yopur choice is spotty wifi hotspots you have to pay for. the other option is 3g (umts/hsdpa etc.) which has pretty good coverage most areas in urban settings - even outside. i think there seems to be some assumption that wifi is so widespread in urban areas (and it comes at a cost equal to or cheaper than 3g datarates). this is not the case in australia. not to mention the datarates for 3g are MUCH less than 2g - they give you a discount for 3g data, but for 2g, it's rap you silly per kilobyte. why? the phone network's 2g data setup was NOT designed for heavy data usage - it's being abused for data and that impacts call quality and the providers will appropriately price the service based on the network ability to provide. so 3g is reasonable. for 2g i will never pay for it as its outragoeus. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
hotpots in the world: http://maps.fon.com/ On Thu, December 18, 2008 10:51, john wrote: A similar situation in London. Apparently we have the most WiFi hotspots in comparison to other cities [1] but you will have to pay to use the majority of these as they are operated by telecos like BT. [1] http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/29/london-trounces-rest-of-world-in-quest-for-wifi-dominance/ I have a deal to use T-Mobile hotspots but never used them as I just leave my device connected via 3G. The only time I switch to WiFi outside my house is when I am at my local pub which has poor GSM signal and free WiFI. Having said that, the only application I tend to hammer the 3G on is Internet radio. I like to chillax to KCRW on my commute! John. 2008/12/18 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com: [snip] Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. here is where i'd disagree. i can walk down my street in sydney - 100% of wifi spots are locked (wep/wpa etc.) - no one opens them. yopur choice is spotty wifi hotspots you have to pay for. the other option is 3g (umts/hsdpa etc.) which has pretty good coverage most areas in urban settings - even outside. i think there seems to be some assumption that wifi is so widespread in urban areas (and it comes at a cost equal to or cheaper than 3g datarates). this is not the case in australia. not to mention the datarates for 3g are MUCH less than 2g - they give you a discount for 3g data, but for 2g, it's rap you silly per kilobyte. why? the phone network's 2g data setup was NOT designed for heavy data usage - it's being abused for data and that impacts call quality and the providers will appropriately price the service based on the network ability to provide. so 3g is reasonable. for 2g i will never pay for it as its outragoeus. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
2008/12/18 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org: My practical experience is: a) in areas (urban) where you have HSDPA speed, you also have WiFi hotspots b) in all other areas (more rural) your connection falls back to GPRS anyway So, a phone that combines GPRS and WiFi is a little more difficult to connect to the correct network but has no dramatically worse connectivity than real 3G. It depends a lot on where you are in the world. Here in the UK HSDPA coverage is already extremely good, and I can get it for as little as £10 (15 USD) a month, or £15/month for more data than I ever use. Basically everywhere I go supports HSDPA, and it costs me no extra to use it whenever I like (and in those spots without HSDPA it seamlessly drops to lower speed connections). When I am out and about there may well be wifi hotspots nearby - but you almost always have to pay for them, so in reality I end up not using them. I realize that in some other parts of the world 3.5G coverage/expense is not so good (ie the USA). But these places are catching up fast (thanks to the newer iPhone etc), and as they do, the demand for this amazing ability to have flat-rate broadband internet wherever you go will increase. I think it is the case that many people don't realize how useful and enabling it is until they have it. Almost all the latest big-brand smartphones support HSDPA (there are a couple of exceptions, but have a Google, seriously). I am worried, because as this trend towards 3G increases throughout 2009, Openmoko will be left looking like a poor choice in more parts of the world. Of the three friends who were very enthusiastic about Openmoko with me for many years, one has now gone for the G1 (Android phone) and another got an iPhone - both with flat rate HSDPA. I know there are plenty of people like yourself (Dr Schaller) who don't feel the need for HSDPA, so if the GTA03 costs more because it has connectivity unneccessary to them they are less likely to buy it. This is an important point. But there is also a proportion of people who won't buy the phone because it can't support HSDPA data plans (but would otherwise - I know people in this group). This group will of course continue to increase in number in 2009 and there will be more open source Android phones coming out, and Nokia even hinting that they might use Linux in some phones [1]. I fear that once most open source enthusiasts have embraced Android (or Maemo) for their phones, they are much less likely to care about the extra freedom Openmoko can offer them (even when it eventually includes the more advanced connectivity), which is a shame. So I feel now is quite a critical time for OM in terms of mindshare. But if 3G hardware and royalties cost too much, then perhaps OM has little choice. And that's just life. We'll make the best of it. [1] http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS5340331149.html See also: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9093153240.html ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
As It seems this thread is becoming more and more some sort of a whish-list, I will put my 2ct here also: - Please don't add a camera: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? Get a real camera if you want to make some nice pictures! There is just one way to get a useful camera within a mobile phone: Using very expensive optical lens and zooming technologies. But in that case, I'd prefer to use the money for a 3G modem which brings me to the next point in my whishlist. - 3G connectivity: Although it is very expensive, I think we _really_ need this one. I know so many people who would like to buy a Freerunner, but they don't do so because of the missing UMTS connectivity. - The rest could stay just as it is in GTA 02. Im perfectly happy with it. Perhaps the slow Glamo could be exchanged... But afaik this is done already... Cheers, Michael On Wednesday 17 December 2008 10:39:21 Laszlo KREKACS wrote: Depending on the feature set that can cut both ways. It could also be a case of I was going to wait for gta03, but I absolutely can't have a phone with a camera so I may as well get gta02 now for example. A must have for one person can be a deal breaker for another. I pick the camera as an example as I used to work on a site where cameras weren't allowed, but keypads and screen resolution have polarised opinions before too. Hi! I'm interesting only in two things: - camera (I assume yes, because of the camera interface of cpu; would be rather dumb not using it) - better case design (the current one is not even in the league with other phones;-|) For case design, I find these (among others) great: - http://www.om.vptt.ch/site/?page_id=53 - http://www.rasterman.com/files/gta03-idea-1.png - iphone In short: not make anything as stupid as a lanyard hole. I hope these features will be untouched: - vga screen - touchscreen - wifi - gps - usb host - sd card I expect these bugfixes: - better rfi design (no echo/buzz and ugly workarounds around them) - better audio quality - no glamo - better battery management (change the current PCF50633 PMU unit) - better 2D performance (should be achievable with the new samsung s3c6410 cpu) - better SD handling (straightforward, if you remove the glamo) For me the release date is not important. I can wait one year without buying a freerunner, if it takes 1-2 year I will consider freerunner as an option, but likely I will buy an another phone. Best regards, Laszlo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:24:52 +0100 Michael Zanetti michael_zane...@gmx.net babbled: As It seems this thread is becoming more and more some sort of a whish-list, I will put my 2ct here also: - Please don't add a camera: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? Get a real camera if you want to make some nice pictures! There is just one way to get a useful camera within a mobile phone: Using very expensive optical lens and zooming technologies. But in that case, I'd prefer to use the money for a 3G modem which brings me to the next point in my whishlist. i have. and millions of japanese have. in japan the mobile is pretty much replacing the low-to-mid-end camera. for happy time snaps. why? their lenses and cameras are GOOD. 5+mpixel was available years ago. - 3G connectivity: Although it is very expensive, I think we _really_ need this one. I know so many people who would like to buy a Freerunner, but they don't do so because of the missing UMTS connectivity. - The rest could stay just as it is in GTA 02. Im perfectly happy with it. Perhaps the slow Glamo could be exchanged... But afaik this is done already... Cheers, Michael On Wednesday 17 December 2008 10:39:21 Laszlo KREKACS wrote: Depending on the feature set that can cut both ways. It could also be a case of I was going to wait for gta03, but I absolutely can't have a phone with a camera so I may as well get gta02 now for example. A must have for one person can be a deal breaker for another. I pick the camera as an example as I used to work on a site where cameras weren't allowed, but keypads and screen resolution have polarised opinions before too. Hi! I'm interesting only in two things: - camera (I assume yes, because of the camera interface of cpu; would be rather dumb not using it) - better case design (the current one is not even in the league with other phones;-|) For case design, I find these (among others) great: - http://www.om.vptt.ch/site/?page_id=53 - http://www.rasterman.com/files/gta03-idea-1.png - iphone In short: not make anything as stupid as a lanyard hole. I hope these features will be untouched: - vga screen - touchscreen - wifi - gps - usb host - sd card I expect these bugfixes: - better rfi design (no echo/buzz and ugly workarounds around them) - better audio quality - no glamo - better battery management (change the current PCF50633 PMU unit) - better 2D performance (should be achievable with the new samsung s3c6410 cpu) - better SD handling (straightforward, if you remove the glamo) For me the release date is not important. I can wait one year without buying a freerunner, if it takes 1-2 year I will consider freerunner as an option, but likely I will buy an another phone. Best regards, Laszlo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Michael Zanetti ha scritto: As It seems this thread is becoming more and more some sort of a whish-list, I will put my 2ct here also: - Please don't add a camera: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? Get a real camera if you want to make some nice pictures! There is just one way to get a useful camera within a mobile phone: Using very expensive optical lens and zooming technologies. But in that case, I'd prefer to use the money for a 3G modem which brings me to the next point in my whishlist. - 3G connectivity: Although it is very expensive, I think we _really_ need this one. I know so many people who would like to buy a Freerunner, but they don't do so because of the missing UMTS connectivity. - The rest could stay just as it is in GTA 02. Im perfectly happy with it. Perhaps the slow Glamo could be exchanged... But afaik this is done already... Cheers, Michael +3! (me, myself and I :P) Bye! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thursday 18 December 2008 12:29:08 you wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:24:52 +0100 Michael Zanetti babbled: i have. and millions of japanese have. in japan the mobile is pretty much replacing the low-to-mid-end camera. for happy time snaps. why? their lenses and cameras are GOOD. 5+mpixel was available years ago. Yep... unfortunately that millions of japanese people won't use the GTA03 without UMTS support... Anyways, I haven't said that it is impossible to create mobile phones with good camers. I have said that good cameras are expensive and we should first use that money for 3G connectivity. - 3G connectivity: Although it is very expensive, I think we _really_ need this one. I know so many people who would like to buy a Freerunner, but they don't do so because of the missing UMTS connectivity. - The rest could stay just as it is in GTA 02. Im perfectly happy with it. Perhaps the slow Glamo could be exchanged... But afaik this is done already... Cheers, Michael On Wednesday 17 December 2008 10:39:21 Laszlo KREKACS wrote: Depending on the feature set that can cut both ways. It could also be a case of I was going to wait for gta03, but I absolutely can't have a phone with a camera so I may as well get gta02 now for example. A must have for one person can be a deal breaker for another. I pick the camera as an example as I used to work on a site where cameras weren't allowed, but keypads and screen resolution have polarised opinions before too. Hi! I'm interesting only in two things: - camera (I assume yes, because of the camera interface of cpu; would be rather dumb not using it) - better case design (the current one is not even in the league with other phones;-|) For case design, I find these (among others) great: - http://www.om.vptt.ch/site/?page_id=53 - http://www.rasterman.com/files/gta03-idea-1.png - iphone In short: not make anything as stupid as a lanyard hole. I hope these features will be untouched: - vga screen - touchscreen - wifi - gps - usb host - sd card I expect these bugfixes: - better rfi design (no echo/buzz and ugly workarounds around them) - better audio quality - no glamo - better battery management (change the current PCF50633 PMU unit) - better 2D performance (should be achievable with the new samsung s3c6410 cpu) - better SD handling (straightforward, if you remove the glamo) For me the release date is not important. I can wait one year without buying a freerunner, if it takes 1-2 year I will consider freerunner as an option, but likely I will buy an another phone. Best regards, Laszlo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
2008/12/18 Michael Zanetti michael_zane...@gmx.net: As It seems this thread is becoming more and more some sort of a whish-list, I will put my 2ct here also: - Please don't add a camera: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? Get a real camera if you want to make some nice pictures! There is just one way to get a useful camera within a mobile phone: Using very expensive optical lens and zooming technologies. But in that case, I'd prefer to use the money for a 3G modem which brings me to the next point in my whishlist. I think this is a misunderstanding of the concept of having a camera in a phone. For many people it is the convenience of *always* having a camera on them. Who knows when you need to take a picture? It doesn't matter if the picture sucks - they have a real camera for quality photos. But they don't have it on them all the time. Furthermore, as Raster points out, for some people the better cameraphones actually do suit their needs *well enough* to replace a normal camera (my gf is one of these). There will always be a large group of people for whom this will never be the case, I know. I say this as someone who would personally gladly do without the camera in place of 3G. But doing this might turn off a whole other group of people, because some sort of camera is such an expected thing in a phone these days. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Sony Ericsson has very good camera's in their phone but this will cost indeed a lot in the range (production number) of Neo. I've noticed that I'd use the camera a lot for making notes of advertisements and posters in the city. Also in some countries, like Japan, the square barcode is used a lot for advertisements and discounts. For this, and for OCR with subsequent language translation (especially CJK) a future model with camera would be appreciated. On Thu, December 18, 2008 12:24, Michael Zanetti wrote: As It seems this thread is becoming more and more some sort of a whish-list, I will put my 2ct here also: - Please don't add a camera: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? Get a real camera if you want to make some nice pictures! There is just one way to get a useful camera within a mobile phone: Using very expensive optical lens and zooming technologies. But in that case, I'd prefer to use the money for a 3G modem which brings me to the next point in my whishlist. - 3G connectivity: Although it is very expensive, I think we _really_ need this one. I know so many people who would like to buy a Freerunner, but they don't do so because of the missing UMTS connectivity. - The rest could stay just as it is in GTA 02. Im perfectly happy with it. Perhaps the slow Glamo could be exchanged... But afaik this is done already... Cheers, Michael On Wednesday 17 December 2008 10:39:21 Laszlo KREKACS wrote: Depending on the feature set that can cut both ways. It could also be a case of I was going to wait for gta03, but I absolutely can't have a phone with a camera so I may as well get gta02 now for example. A must have for one person can be a deal breaker for another. I pick the camera as an example as I used to work on a site where cameras weren't allowed, but keypads and screen resolution have polarised opinions before too. Hi! I'm interesting only in two things: - camera (I assume yes, because of the camera interface of cpu; would be rather dumb not using it) - better case design (the current one is not even in the league with other phones;-|) For case design, I find these (among others) great: - http://www.om.vptt.ch/site/?page_id=53 - http://www.rasterman.com/files/gta03-idea-1.png - iphone In short: not make anything as stupid as a lanyard hole. I hope these features will be untouched: - vga screen - touchscreen - wifi - gps - usb host - sd card I expect these bugfixes: - better rfi design (no echo/buzz and ugly workarounds around them) - better audio quality - no glamo - better battery management (change the current PCF50633 PMU unit) - better 2D performance (should be achievable with the new samsung s3c6410 cpu) - better SD handling (straightforward, if you remove the glamo) For me the release date is not important. I can wait one year without buying a freerunner, if it takes 1-2 year I will consider freerunner as an option, but likely I will buy an another phone. Best regards, Laszlo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:38:27PM +0100, Michael Zanetti wrote: On Thursday 18 December 2008 12:29:08 you wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:24:52 +0100 Michael Zanetti babbled: i have. and millions of japanese have. in japan the mobile is pretty much replacing the low-to-mid-end camera. for happy time snaps. why? their lenses and cameras are GOOD. 5+mpixel was available years ago. Yep... unfortunately that millions of japanese people won't use the GTA03 without UMTS support... Maybe it's just a wildguess, but I don't think millions of japanese will use the GTA03 if it has UMTS support. Just putting your logic into perspective :) Rui -- Or is it? Today is Boomtime, the 60th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Having a hackable eye on the Neo will open a lot of new posibilities, multiply this posibilities with gps*wifi*accelerometers* 2008/12/18 Pander pan...@users.sourceforge.net: Sony Ericsson has very good camera's in their phone but this will cost indeed a lot in the range (production number) of Neo. I've noticed that I'd use the camera a lot for making notes of advertisements and posters in the city. Also in some countries, like Japan, the square barcode is used a lot for advertisements and discounts. For this, and for OCR with subsequent language translation (especially CJK) a future model with camera would be appreciated. On Thu, December 18, 2008 12:24, Michael Zanetti wrote: As It seems this thread is becoming more and more some sort of a whish-list, I will put my 2ct here also: - Please don't add a camera: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? Get a real camera if you want to make some nice pictures! There is just one way to get a useful camera within a mobile phone: Using very expensive optical lens and zooming technologies. But in that case, I'd prefer to use the money for a 3G modem which brings me to the next point in my whishlist. - 3G connectivity: Although it is very expensive, I think we _really_ need this one. I know so many people who would like to buy a Freerunner, but they don't do so because of the missing UMTS connectivity. - The rest could stay just as it is in GTA 02. Im perfectly happy with it. Perhaps the slow Glamo could be exchanged... But afaik this is done already... Cheers, Michael On Wednesday 17 December 2008 10:39:21 Laszlo KREKACS wrote: Depending on the feature set that can cut both ways. It could also be a case of I was going to wait for gta03, but I absolutely can't have a phone with a camera so I may as well get gta02 now for example. A must have for one person can be a deal breaker for another. I pick the camera as an example as I used to work on a site where cameras weren't allowed, but keypads and screen resolution have polarised opinions before too. Hi! I'm interesting only in two things: - camera (I assume yes, because of the camera interface of cpu; would be rather dumb not using it) - better case design (the current one is not even in the league with other phones;-|) For case design, I find these (among others) great: - http://www.om.vptt.ch/site/?page_id=53 - http://www.rasterman.com/files/gta03-idea-1.png - iphone In short: not make anything as stupid as a lanyard hole. I hope these features will be untouched: - vga screen - touchscreen - wifi - gps - usb host - sd card I expect these bugfixes: - better rfi design (no echo/buzz and ugly workarounds around them) - better audio quality - no glamo - better battery management (change the current PCF50633 PMU unit) - better 2D performance (should be achievable with the new samsung s3c6410 cpu) - better SD handling (straightforward, if you remove the glamo) For me the release date is not important. I can wait one year without buying a freerunner, if it takes 1-2 year I will consider freerunner as an option, but likely I will buy an another phone. Best regards, Laszlo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- David Reyes Samblas Martinez http://www.tuxbrain.com Open ultraportable solutions Openmoko, Openpandora, GP2X the Wiz, Letux 400 Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:52:20 + Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org babbled: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:38:27PM +0100, Michael Zanetti wrote: On Thursday 18 December 2008 12:29:08 you wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:24:52 +0100 Michael Zanetti babbled: i have. and millions of japanese have. in japan the mobile is pretty much replacing the low-to-mid-end camera. for happy time snaps. why? their lenses and cameras are GOOD. 5+mpixel was available years ago. Yep... unfortunately that millions of japanese people won't use the GTA03 without UMTS support... Maybe it's just a wildguess, but I don't think millions of japanese will use the GTA03 if it has UMTS support. Just putting your logic into perspective :) he asked: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? - i had a good answer to it. :) if you want to see the epitomy of awesome technology in phones - visit japan and wander through yodobashi's phone section. i lived there for 4 years. they are well ahead of everyone else. their software and ui's suck though :) seriously dropping camera isn't going to free up money for 3g. 3g is going to cost many many many TIMES what the camera does. you're throwing out the basketballs from the garage to make room for the hummer. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:24:52 pm Michael Zanetti wrote: - Please don't add a camera Or make it optional, I have friends who are are now working in a building where cameras are forbidden (a car company) and so will have to discard their iPhones and Apple laptops for precisely this reason.. cheers, Chris -- Chris Samuel : http://www.csamuel.org/ : Melbourne, VIC This email may come with a PGP signature as a file. Do not panic. For more info see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:00:14PM +1100, Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:52:20 + Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org babbled: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 12:38:27PM +0100, Michael Zanetti wrote: On Thursday 18 December 2008 12:29:08 you wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:24:52 +0100 Michael Zanetti babbled: i have. and millions of japanese have. in japan the mobile is pretty much replacing the low-to-mid-end camera. for happy time snaps. why? their lenses and cameras are GOOD. 5+mpixel was available years ago. Yep... unfortunately that millions of japanese people won't use the GTA03 without UMTS support... Maybe it's just a wildguess, but I don't think millions of japanese will use the GTA03 if it has UMTS support. Just putting your logic into perspective :) he asked: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? - i had a good answer to it. :) if you want to see the epitomy of awesome technology in phones - visit japan and wander through yodobashi's phone section. i lived there for 4 years. they are well ahead of everyone else. their software and ui's suck though :) seriously dropping camera isn't going to free up money for 3g. 3g is going to cost many many many TIMES what the camera does. you're throwing out the basketballs from the garage to make room for the hummer. Yeah! If it's a decent enough camera (5Mp at least), than it's probably worth the upgrade :) I don't find a camera or UMTS as requirements for my phones, but I do recognise the need to integrate communications+computer+camera for I don't like to carry so many equipments with me. OTOH, loose one, loose all... Rui -- Today is Boomtime, the 60th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 5:02 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote: a 3g modem/module/chipset is REALLY expensive. especially if you have low volume (that means less than a few hundred thousand units). you pay a small fortune in royalties too. It is true, 3G is expensive and for most practical reasons, probably not feasible. In my situation, it's something that I can't argue with. Myself, living in Canada, most of the country is run on the older CDMA network and GSM is spotty at most so 3G isn't really a priority, but I often get sent to south-east Asia and most of the countries there run on 3G only networks. Unless I know that an FR coming out will have 3G, I'll have to buy a just as or more expensive 3G phone so I can bring it with me. The other thing is seeing the North American market bash with the rest of the world, a big concept that's starting to pick up around here is 'World-Phones' that run on the 850MHz North American networks and 900MHZ networks as well. At least with 3G, we don't have this problem... it all runs on the same bandwidth. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, December 18, 2008 13:15, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: ... OTOH, loose one, loose all... That is where online backups to servers and address book and calendar synchronisation with your laptop/dekstop are for. Rui -- Today is Boomtime, the 60th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Justyn Butler wrote: 2008/12/18 Michael Zanetti michael_zane...@gmx.net: As It seems this thread is becoming more and more some sort of a whish-list, I will put my 2ct here also: - Please don't add a camera: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? Get a real camera if you want to make some nice pictures! There is just one way to get a useful camera within a mobile phone: Using very expensive optical lens and zooming technologies. But in that case, I'd prefer to use the money for a 3G modem which brings me to the next point in my whishlist. I think this is a misunderstanding of the concept of having a camera in a phone. For many people it is the convenience of *always* having a camera on them. Who knows when you need to take a picture? It doesn't matter if the picture sucks - they have a real camera for quality photos. But they don't have it on them all the time. Furthermore, as Raster points out, for some people the better cameraphones actually do suit their needs *well enough* to replace a normal camera (my gf is one of these). There will always be a large group of people for whom this will never be the case, I know. yep, with 3-5 mpixel, image stabilization and some kind of flash (xenon or whatever prefered), phone cameras becomes quite a workable spur of the moment camera. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:16 AM, Pander pan...@users.sourceforge.net wrote: hotpots in the world: http://maps.fon.com/ this map is faked cause a node is added once you entered your coord in order to receive one router. No matter if you move between, or if you never plug it on... I agree to Raster... Even if there is few open hotspot, it's barely usable because it isn't noticed anywhere. here is a view in my city after a small wardrive : http://le-roux.info/temp/wardrive_brest.png results here : http://brest-wireless.net/wiki/wd more than 10 000 wifi access points. less than 1% opened, less than 0,4% opened by acknwoledgement You can use it only if there is a real wifi network band (like brest-sans-fil-x access in Brest city, only 40 APs for now) Look the freephonie map... freephonie is a free service provided by the the ISP free.fr in France. Every where you have a freephonie access point (the set top box freebox), you can phone freely and taxes free. It's usable, because you have freebox everywhere...nearly 30% of the whole probes we see... and compared to that... we have 2 fon access... versus... http://maps.fon.com?lt=48.39649929054651ln=-4.488687515258789zm=14 numbers speak themselves... On Thu, December 18, 2008 10:51, john wrote: A similar situation in London. Apparently we have the most WiFi hotspots in comparison to other cities [1] but you will have to pay to use the majority of these as they are operated by telecos like BT. [1] http://www.engadget.com/2008/10/29/london-trounces-rest-of-world-in-quest-for-wifi-dominance/ I have a deal to use T-Mobile hotspots but never used them as I just leave my device connected via 3G. The only time I switch to WiFi outside my house is when I am at my local pub which has poor GSM signal and free WiFI. Having said that, the only application I tend to hammer the 3G on is Internet radio. I like to chillax to KCRW on my commute! John. 2008/12/18 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com: [snip] Improving to 3G is therefore a nice to have for me. Not mandatory. here is where i'd disagree. i can walk down my street in sydney - 100% of wifi spots are locked (wep/wpa etc.) - no one opens them. yopur choice is spotty wifi hotspots you have to pay for. the other option is 3g (umts/hsdpa etc.) which has pretty good coverage most areas in urban settings - even outside. i think there seems to be some assumption that wifi is so widespread in urban areas (and it comes at a cost equal to or cheaper than 3g datarates). this is not the case in australia. not to mention the datarates for 3g are MUCH less than 2g - they give you a discount for 3g data, but for 2g, it's rap you silly per kilobyte. why? the phone network's 2g data setup was NOT designed for heavy data usage - it's being abused for data and that impacts call quality and the providers will appropriately price the service based on the network ability to provide. so 3g is reasonable. for 2g i will never pay for it as its outragoeus. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Steven Le Roux Jabber-ID : ste...@jabber.fr 0x39494CCB ste...@le-roux.info 2FF7 226B 552E 4709 03F0 6281 72D7 A010 3949 4CCB ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
I think this discussion does not get my original point, which does take the useage pattern into account. When I am at work, at University, at home, visiting friends, I always have an open WiFi. In most of these locations I also have HSDPA. At my parents, mother-in-law's location or in holidays in the mountains or at a nice beach there was always neither WIFI nor HSDPA and my Huawei did fall back to GPRS. That was slow but it works. At no extra cost. And no need to find a WLAN hotspot. So having GPRS is better than having nothing. And my UMTS contract at 20 EUR per month includes GPRS. I acknowledge that others have different useage patterns (urban areas walking/driving through the streets), but that is not my typical pattern. And I agree that having UMTS with auto-fallback to GPRS is easier to use than switching between GPRS and WIFI. But when I have to live with GPRS in rural areas anyway, why not also at urban ones until cheap 3G modules become available for a GTA04. Therefore I came to the conclusion that it is not mandatory for me but a nice to have. Coming to cost, the pattern is: Network Speed Cost --- --- open WiFi fastfree paid WiFi fastquite expensive (20 EUR / 24h) UMTSfastmy 20 EUR flat rate GPRSslowincluded in my 20 EUR UMTS flat rate So the result is that I will no longer use the paid WiFi services because they are too expensive compared to using fallback GPRS. Nikolaus Am 18.12.2008 um 14:48 schrieb Steven Le Roux: more than 10 000 wifi access points. less than 1% opened, less than 0,4% opened by acknwoledgement ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 01:59:25PM +0100, Pander wrote: On Thu, December 18, 2008 13:15, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: ... OTOH, loose one, loose all... That is where online backups to servers and address book and calendar synchronisation with your laptop/dekstop are for. Do they give me a new device too? Because that is the real problem of integration :) Rui -- Pzat! Today is Boomtime, the 60th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:24:52 +0100 Michael Zanetti michael_zane...@gmx.net babbled: As It seems this thread is becoming more and more some sort of a whish-list, I will put my 2ct here also: - Please don't add a camera: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? Get a real camera if you want to make some nice pictures! There is just one way to get a useful camera within a mobile phone: Using very expensive optical lens and zooming technologies. But in that case, I'd prefer to use the money for a 3G modem which brings me to the next point in my whishlist. i have. and millions of japanese have. in japan the mobile is pretty much replacing the low-to-mid-end camera. for happy time snaps. why? their lenses and cameras are GOOD. 5+mpixel was available years ago. What kind of camera are these phones replacing? Credit-card sized cameras that indeed are as lousy as phone cameras are? Note that it isn't merely a question of megapixels. More pixels doesn't make the image better, if the sensor stays as small. Smaller pixels create lots of noise, and have no dynamic range. You could manufacture a 20 megapixel sensor small enough to go in a phone - no problem for the factory. It'd be useless though. It'd be nice if a camera is optional, at least. Some doesn't want to pay for it, some want to use the camera where cameras aren't allowed. And consider the market - this hacker's phone are for technically interested people, most of who get a decent camera if they want to take pictures. And of course, a pop-out camera leaves room that can be used for something else. Such as room for several SD-cards, perhaps even that secondary SIM option. More SDcards is good - one for the OS and one that can be changed with the system running. (Or RAID, for the specially interested :-) Two SIMs are what business users want - one for private use and one for company use. - 3G connectivity: Although it is very expensive, I think we _really_ need this one. I know so many people who would like to buy a Freerunner, but they don't do so because of the missing UMTS connectivity. Nice to have, and why so expensive? If the problem is small series, cooperate with some other phone manufacturer and have them resell a small portion of their large shipment of 3G chips. - The rest could stay just as it is in GTA 02. Im perfectly happy with it. Perhaps the slow Glamo could be exchanged... But afaik this is done already... Yes, it is necessary to update the whole screen in a timely manner. Full screen video ought to be ok, and this would speed up the GUI in general too. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:52:51 +0100 Helge Hafting helge.haft...@hist.no babbled: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:24:52 +0100 Michael Zanetti michael_zane...@gmx.net babbled: As It seems this thread is becoming more and more some sort of a whish-list, I will put my 2ct here also: - Please don't add a camera: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? Get a real camera if you want to make some nice pictures! There is just one way to get a useful camera within a mobile phone: Using very expensive optical lens and zooming technologies. But in that case, I'd prefer to use the money for a 3G modem which brings me to the next point in my whishlist. i have. and millions of japanese have. in japan the mobile is pretty much replacing the low-to-mid-end camera. for happy time snaps. why? their lenses and cameras are GOOD. 5+mpixel was available years ago. What kind of camera are these phones replacing? Credit-card sized cameras that indeed are as lousy as phone cameras are? Note that it isn't merely a question of megapixels. More pixels doesn't make the image better, if the sensor stays as small. Smaller pixels create lots of noise, and have no dynamic range. You could manufacture a 20 megapixel sensor small enough to go in a phone - no problem for the factory. It'd be useless though. i know. it's also a factor of lens - and they have been putting in higher-end lenses and sensors for a while now. they're far ahead of western phones. 3 years ago they had 5mpixel cameras on phones with good compact lenses (the kind you find on the more compact digi cams). things have been moving in leaps and bounds since then. but more to the point - travel around japan. watch people on holiday (the japanese) or watch them when they travel. guess what the camera of choice is that they pull out? not their nikon d80 or canon ixus or whatever. it's their phone. they are always taking tonnes of photos with their phones. it's probably the most used type of camera (if comparing against compact cams + dslr's) by quote a margin. and they are happy with it. the most high-tech phone market in the world (and i am going to stand by that) is happy with their phones as cameras - and these people guy new phones just because its new and has a bigger checklist of features than the previous one. they care about technology and they are happy with it. they happen to have the most advanced phones around (8 months+ ago i was walking through yodobashi looking at phones with 832x480 3 screens. already on sale. not just announced, but on shelves and being purchased - just as an example). It'd be nice if a camera is optional, at least. Some doesn't want to pay for it, some want to use the camera where cameras aren't allowed. And consider the market - this hacker's phone are for technically interested people, most of who get a decent camera if they want to take pictures. the problem is - if you make it optional it all becomes more expensive as you need to have multiple production lines and multiple case designs - in the end its CHEAPER to ship a camera for everyone. that's the reality of the embedded market. you could only combine removal of camera with removal of several other high-cost parts (eg go from 3g to 2g, remove wifi and gps) so the actual cost difference is signficant enough to service a market segment you otherwise would not have reached. but this now is a matter for the sales and marketing people to guess - does such a thing really net them more sales in the end. i can't say for cure - but i know the principles - i just lack the in-depth view of the market as a whole. And of course, a pop-out camera leaves room that can be used for something else. Such as room for several SD-cards, perhaps even that secondary SIM option. More SDcards is good - one for the OS and one that can be changed with the system running. (Or RAID, for the specially interested :-) Two SIMs are what business users want - one for private use and one for company use. moving parts == bad. prone to failure/break - even at production time as testing may say go but the part loosens during shipping as its intended to be loose/move. it's something makers like to avoid if they can. - 3G connectivity: Although it is very expensive, I think we _really_ need this one. I know so many people who would like to buy a Freerunner, but they don't do so because of the missing UMTS connectivity. Nice to have, and why so expensive? If the problem is small series, cooperate with some other phone manufacturer and have them resell a small portion of their large shipment of 3G chips. HAHAHAHAHA co-operate with a rival? let a rival help a competitor? hehehehe. giggle. - The rest could stay just as it is in GTA 02. Im perfectly happy with it. Perhaps the slow Glamo could be exchanged... But afaik this is done already... Yes, it is necessary to
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:08:09 +0100 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org babbled: i'm taking usage pattern into account - and when i'm @ wifi.. i also have a keyboard, screen and real machine to use... so if i want to check something/google for it or whatever - i use something more comfortable. when i'm walking down the street and go crap... what was X again? i forgot and i want to check... or i need a map of where i am and where i have to go... or need to check to see if the competitors store is selling for less... there is no wifi. there is no lan. there *IS* 3g - even at the beach. and the park. and pretty much everywhere i go 99% of the time... there is 3g. maybe 3g is just better serviced in a large city like sydney (4+million people spread over an area about 70kmx120km). but wifi is not an option at all here - never will be. all net connections have transfer quotas (unless you pay a small fortune for yours and then you'd be charging for access to cover the cost). no one opens up their wifi because they open up free access to a limited quota'd resource they pay for. and that won't improve - look at the usa - the ISPs are going in the direction of quotas too. 3g is quota'd too - but it works everywhere. and the quota is on the account i pay for. :) 2g is charged by the kb at insane rates. ($1.65/mb is three's going rate for 2g data - whereas their 3g data rates are more like $0.0068/mb. now you know why 3g is so important? 2g data is 241 TIMES more expensive than 3g. and three offer the best datarates in .au). I think this discussion does not get my original point, which does take the useage pattern into account. When I am at work, at University, at home, visiting friends, I always have an open WiFi. In most of these locations I also have HSDPA. At my parents, mother-in-law's location or in holidays in the mountains or at a nice beach there was always neither WIFI nor HSDPA and my Huawei did fall back to GPRS. That was slow but it works. At no extra cost. And no need to find a WLAN hotspot. So having GPRS is better than having nothing. And my UMTS contract at 20 EUR per month includes GPRS. I acknowledge that others have different useage patterns (urban areas walking/driving through the streets), but that is not my typical pattern. And I agree that having UMTS with auto-fallback to GPRS is easier to use than switching between GPRS and WIFI. But when I have to live with GPRS in rural areas anyway, why not also at urban ones until cheap 3G modules become available for a GTA04. Therefore I came to the conclusion that it is not mandatory for me but a nice to have. Coming to cost, the pattern is: Network Speed Cost --- --- open WiFi fastfree paid WiFi fastquite expensive (20 EUR / 24h) UMTS fastmy 20 EUR flat rate GPRS slowincluded in my 20 EUR UMTS flat rate So the result is that I will no longer use the paid WiFi services because they are too expensive compared to using fallback GPRS. Nikolaus Am 18.12.2008 um 14:48 schrieb Steven Le Roux: more than 10 000 wifi access points. less than 1% opened, less than 0,4% opened by acknwoledgement ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
2008/12/18 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:08:09 +0100 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org babbled: i'm taking usage pattern into account - and when i'm @ wifi.. i also have a keyboard, screen and real machine to use... so if i want to check something/google for it or whatever - i use something more comfortable. when i'm walking down the street and go crap... what was X again? i forgot and i want to check... or i need a map of where i am and where i have to go... or need to check to see if the competitors store is selling for less... there is no wifi. there is no lan. there *IS* 3g - even at the beach. and the park. and pretty much everywhere i go 99% of the time... there is 3g. This is exactly what I wanted to write but wasted a billion words failing to, thank you Raster! That's why 3G is important! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
2008/12/18 Justyn Butler justynbutler+openm...@googlemail.com: 2008/12/18 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com: On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:08:09 +0100 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@computer.org babbled: i'm taking usage pattern into account - and when i'm @ wifi.. i also have a keyboard, screen and real machine to use... so if i want to check something/google for it or whatever - i use something more comfortable. when i'm walking down the street and go crap... what was X again? i forgot and i want to check... or i need a map of where i am and where i have to go... or need to check to see if the competitors store is selling for less... there is no wifi. there is no lan. there *IS* 3g - even at the beach. and the park. and pretty much everywhere i go 99% of the time... there is 3g. This is exactly what I wanted to write but wasted a billion words failing to, thank you Raster! That's why 3G is important! +1 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Fri, December 19, 2008 9:34 am, Carsten Haitzler wrote: 2g is charged by the kb at insane rates. ($1.65/mb is three's going rate for 2g data - whereas their 3g data rates are more like $0.0068/mb. now you know why 3g is so important? 2g data is 241 TIMES more expensive than 3g. and three offer the best datarates in .au). We are getting a little off topic here, but I'm wondering how you get that rate for 3g. The rates I find are all around $0.015/mb dropping to about $0.010/mb if you buy in bulk (i.e. buy $100 worth). For 2g, I pay $0.40/mb (www.exetel.com.au) which is still 26x 3g, but is bearable for light usage. Another reason 3g is important: using a VOIP service, you can make cheaper phone calls by sending data over your 3g service than by using it for standard voice calls. NeilBrown ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:00:05 +1100 (EST) NeilBrown ne...@suse.de babbled: On Fri, December 19, 2008 9:34 am, Carsten Haitzler wrote: 2g is charged by the kb at insane rates. ($1.65/mb is three's going rate for 2g data - whereas their 3g data rates are more like $0.0068/mb. now you know why 3g is so important? 2g data is 241 TIMES more expensive than 3g. and three offer the best datarates in .au). We are getting a little off topic here, but I'm wondering how you get that rate for 3g. The rates I find are all around $0.015/mb dropping to about $0.010/mb if you buy in bulk (i.e. buy $100 worth). www.three.com.au - the $0.0068/mb is their $49 for 7g/month deal. the $1.65/mb is their if roaming on 2g this is the charge as they have no 2g network - 3g only. and optus/telstra's rates for data are higher for 3g. For 2g, I pay $0.40/mb (www.exetel.com.au) which is still 26x 3g, but is bearable for light usage. still supports the point that datarates 3g vs 2g is a world of difference. by supporting only 2g an open phone basically costs customers/users much more money. so freedom comes at a high financial cost. not just an initial purchase but ongoing data rates. which should be agnostic - open phone or not. i spend the extra for the open device and expect it to end there as i supply my own software and so my own support - but i continue to be punished. :( Another reason 3g is important: using a VOIP service, you can make cheaper phone calls by sending data over your 3g service than by using it for standard voice calls. rates are from www.three.com.au :) in their module broadband rates page. :) and yes - 3g data could end up cheaper - depending on your call rates, free calls to nominated numbers within the same network plans and deals etc. withstanding etc. etc. of course. -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 12:24 +0100, Michael Zanetti wrote: As It seems this thread is becoming more and more some sort of a whish-list, I will put my 2ct here also: - Please don't add a camera: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? Get a real camera if you want to make some nice pictures! There is just one way to get a useful camera within a mobile phone: Using very expensive optical lens and zooming technologies. But in that Actually, please add a camera. Many techos (that is those who work in technical areas) use the mobile phone camera in their work. I.e., photos of situations, faults etc for reference/passing on to support etc. Only one device to carry, and its always with you. Yes early ones were barely adequate (I used a Palm treo for this), but others moved onto nokias etc when they came with better cameras. And how many controversial situations hit the news where a mobile phone camera was used as its on the spot and available? Not talking professional photography here, but a useful tool. Billk ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:10:59 +0900, W.Kenworthy bi...@iinet.net.au wrote: On Thu, 2008-12-18 at 12:24 +0100, Michael Zanetti wrote: As It seems this thread is becoming more and more some sort of a whish-list, I will put my 2ct here also: - Please don't add a camera: Has ever anyone made a picture with a mobile phone camera that doesn't suck? Get a real camera if you want to make some nice pictures! There is just one way to get a useful camera within a mobile phone: Using very expensive optical lens and zooming technologies. But in that Actually, please add a camera. Many techos (that is those who work in technical areas) use the mobile phone camera in their work. I.e., photos of situations, faults etc for reference/passing on to support etc. Only one device to carry, and its always with you. Yes early ones were barely adequate (I used a Palm treo for this), but others moved onto nokias etc when they came with better cameras. And how many controversial situations hit the news where a mobile phone camera was used as its on the spot and available? Not talking professional photography here, but a useful tool. Billk Unfortunately there are also those in technical areas who are prohibited from having a camera in the workplace. There are other situations where it's prohibited (at least in my experience) like courthouses. It's one of those pretty clear-cut you'll never please everyone situations. Both wishes (with/without) are valid with good reasons behind them, but clearly a single device can't deliver both. (without a removable cam, which would then be the pro/anti removable conflict ;) j -- Joel Newkirk http://jthinks.com (blog) http://newkirk.us/om (FR stuff) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Hello, 2008/12/18 The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com: here is where i'd disagree. i can walk down my street in sydney - 100% of wifi spots are locked (wep/wpa etc.) - no one opens them. yopur choice is spotty wifi hotspots you have to pay for. [...] I experience the very same situation here on the other side of the world. There are lots of closed wifi access points. Therefore I add another sign to the 3G sign: Add a fat DSP to GTA03 | | Lets add another information layer to open street map, containing discovered or already-tried-but-failed wpa-keys. Then each gta03 synchronize with the current state of your home town and start trying some new keys in the neighbourhood as we walk around. kind regards Andras ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Depending on the feature set that can cut both ways. It could also be a case of I was going to wait for gta03, but I absolutely can't have a phone with a camera so I may as well get gta02 now for example. A must have for one person can be a deal breaker for another. I pick the camera as an example as I used to work on a site where cameras weren't allowed, but keypads and screen resolution have polarised opinions before too. Hi! I'm interesting only in two things: - camera (I assume yes, because of the camera interface of cpu; would be rather dumb not using it) - better case design (the current one is not even in the league with other phones;-|) For case design, I find these (among others) great: - http://www.om.vptt.ch/site/?page_id=53 - http://www.rasterman.com/files/gta03-idea-1.png - iphone In short: not make anything as stupid as a lanyard hole. I hope these features will be untouched: - vga screen - touchscreen - wifi - gps - usb host - sd card I expect these bugfixes: - better rfi design (no echo/buzz and ugly workarounds around them) - better audio quality - no glamo - better battery management (change the current PCF50633 PMU unit) - better 2D performance (should be achievable with the new samsung s3c6410 cpu) - better SD handling (straightforward, if you remove the glamo) For me the release date is not important. I can wait one year without buying a freerunner, if it takes 1-2 year I will consider freerunner as an option, but likely I will buy an another phone. Best regards, Laszlo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 05:00:30PM +0100, Ed Kapitein wrote: On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 16:12 +0100, Helge Hafting wrote: Evgeny Karyakin wrote: Dunno... First link propose a case suggesting iPhone look, I think we shouldn't follow everything Apple come out with, and I second to pill case. When I first saw GTA02 look, I thought it's ugly, but that was just because it's unusual; now I like it and like a bottom hole around antenna. The hole is important. You can tie the phone to a string. And it is easier for the do-it-yourselfers to make brackets for car/bicycle use. Now that openvibe is out, perhaps we should put an orange warning label on the back of the freerunner, for the intended use of the hole ;-) That would shine a light on the what is a small... definition! Orange label: WARNING: if it fits, it IS small! :) Rui -- Hail Eris, Hack GNU/Linux! Today is Sweetmorn, the 59th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3174 + No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown + Whatever you do will be insignificant, | but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi + So let's do it...? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
2008/12/17 Laszlo KREKACS laszlo.krekacs.l...@gmail.com: For case design, I find these (among others) great: - http://www.om.vptt.ch/site/?page_id=53 - http://www.rasterman.com/files/gta03-idea-1.png - iphone Dunno... First link propose a case suggesting iPhone look, I think we shouldn't follow everything Apple come out with, and I second to pill case. When I first saw GTA02 look, I thought it's ugly, but that was just because it's unusual; now I like it and like a bottom hole around antenna. With relation to Raster's case, if you're going to get sliding number keyboard, we just enter a troublesome field of hardware modification difficulties as infamous buzz/echo problem has proved us: * It's a moving part and can be broken. * Software developers will enforce heavier requirement on users to use keyboard; programs can become more difficult to use without it. * Localization issues. Hopefully Openmoko (phones) will be wide-spread across the world, but will Openmoko (company) be able to make several lingual versions of keyboard? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Evgeny Karyakin wrote: Dunno... First link propose a case suggesting iPhone look, I think we shouldn't follow everything Apple come out with, and I second to pill case. When I first saw GTA02 look, I thought it's ugly, but that was just because it's unusual; now I like it and like a bottom hole around antenna. The hole is important. You can tie the phone to a string. And it is easier for the do-it-yourselfers to make brackets for car/bicycle use. Furthermore, the hole has become, in my opinion, a symbol of the phone. A powerful image. I think it could be powered as a distinctive trait in marketing. [About keyboard] All that you said makes a lot of sense to me. Also, I haven't missed a physical keyboard on the freerunner, if anyone cares. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: That would shine a light on the what is a small... definition! Orange label: WARNING: if it fits, it IS small! :) Maybe we should 3nl4rge the hole. There's pills for that on the internet (and all over my INBOX). -- Olivier ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Leonti, sorry I was a bit too ironical in my answer. So let me explain. Nikolaus Am 17.12.2008 um 15:24 schrieb Leonti Bielski: Nikolaus, I don't get what's wrong with my questions? Nothing is wrong with the questions. Only expecting precise answers from the project team before there is an official annoucement of a new device. That is what I allude to with my comments. I have no inside information but I know from other such projects that there is not really a decision being taken at a certain time that can be published before the first samples come out of the factory. It is always possible in such projects to have late changes and revise some previously done decisions. E.g. making the device a little larger. Removing a camera because the supplier can't deliver etc. For the GTA01 and 02 the OM hardware team has been more open - but they also had to discuss endlessly about changed decisions and slipping time schedules. This draws a lot of attention from the real project and does not help to make it faster. 1. About the case design - it was a poll on ML about different types of case - with keypad, without, slider, etc. So I think it make sense to ask what was finally chosen. It could also be that nothing has been choosen yet. Or several variants of which one will finally reach production. So what should OM officially say today? 2. GSM chip: Look in here how many chips were considered: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoForesight It makes sense to ask which one was chosen, doesn't it? Mickey has given a statement showing a clear preference. But until it has been purchased in quantities, shipped to the factory and prepared for production, it is not finally choosen. 3. GTA03 is internal codename, like GTA01 and GTA02, but they are called Neo1973 and Neo Freerunner. I seriously doubt GTA03 will go on sale with GTA03 name. Yes, I doubt as well. But fixing the brand name is not required until approx. 2 months before launch. If we assume (which can be completely wrong) that launch is in Summer - nothing could have been choosen at all. As said before, I don't know about their internal project plans and how good they achieved any milestones. 4 and 5, don't want even bother to comment this. There is no specific availability announced. And no price. So the only thing we can guess from the outside is that they will have a comparable price to other devices and devices will come when they are finished. Leonti Hello! As proud Freerunner owner I'm interested in how the development of GTA03 goes. I'm not going to buy it - there is still a lot of fun with FR, but it would be interesting to know something about next open phone. Wiki page is outdated and there is no updates on ML. Does someone know how everything is going with gta03? 1. What case design is chosen? A good one. 2. What gsm chip? The best one! 3. How will it be called? GTA03! 4. When is release date (+/- 3 month :)) ? 12:00 (I don't know on which day) 5. Price estimate. Comparable to others. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
IMHO this is quite irrelevant. What the OM ecosystem needs is to go into a direction as shown by AppStore, Android Market etc. I.e. a full solution consisting of: a) Content (the open variant will be Wikipedia, Openstreetmap etc.) b) Application Store (that is what projects.openmoko.org should be turned into) c) compatible Devices with more and more stable hard software that can easily access this open content So if that is becoming available, the device itself and its roadmap isn't that important at all. Nikolaus Am 16.12.2008 um 20:08 schrieb Leonti Bielski: Hello! As proud Freerunner owner I'm interested in how the development of GTA03 goes. I'm not going to buy it - there is still a lot of fun with FR, but it would be interesting to know something about next open phone. Wiki page is outdated and there is no updates on ML. Does someone know how everything is going with gta03? 1. What case design is chosen? A good one. 2. What gsm chip? The best one! 3. How will it be called? GTA03! 4. When is release date (+/- 3 month :)) ? 12:00 (I don't know on which day) 5. Price estimate. Comparable to others. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
2008/12/17 Sargun Dhillon xbmodder+openm...@gmail.com: Meh, I actually like the pill design quite a bit! What's so wrong with the pill? Because the screen does not have a pill form? Imho the design should highlight the beautiful screen and not hide it, as the current one does. The surface should be flat, no frame around the screen, etc. It would be not a bad idea to advertise a design compatition, with a prize of an openmoko phone. There are some remarkable open source art communities and software (eg: blender.org) I can even imagine that the future phone will be sold in two different case design (the hardware spec would be the same), one design would be created by an internal openmoko designer, the other one would be this competition-winner design. I read somewhere, that openmoko want (in the future) sold multiple phone-variant, which is great. But multiple phone-variant not necessary means diverse hardware specification. Ok, enough of my wet dream... Best regards, Laszlo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Evgeny Karyakin wrote: Dunno... First link propose a case suggesting iPhone look, I think we shouldn't follow everything Apple come out with, and I second to pill case. When I first saw GTA02 look, I thought it's ugly, but that was just because it's unusual; now I like it and like a bottom hole around antenna. The hole is important. You can tie the phone to a string. And it is easier for the do-it-yourselfers to make brackets for car/bicycle use. With relation to Raster's case, if you're going to get sliding number keyboard, we just enter a troublesome field of hardware modification difficulties as infamous buzz/echo problem has proved us: * It's a moving part and can be broken. * Software developers will enforce heavier requirement on users to use keyboard; programs can become more difficult to use without it. * Software will especially be harder to use on the GTA01 and GTA02. * One more part for condensation/rain to ruin. If you want to waterproof GTA02, then you can probably do so with some work. Silicone in the case seams, and so on. fill the plugs with something. Now try this with a keyboard. The two buttons on GTA02 can be covered, they aren't used much so it is ok if they get cumbersome. Not so with a kayboard. * Localization issues. Hopefully Openmoko (phones) will be wide-spread across the world, but will Openmoko (company) be able to make several lingual versions of keyboard? This is an important point. Other phone makers all fail on this point. They sell phones with a english keyboard. This is not sufficent in the rest of Europe, of course. So they think they can paint the keytops differently, and change the keyboard driver. This fail, because there is not enough keys. Other languages using the latin alphabet tends to have a few letters more than just A-Z. And then you get ugly kludges where you have almost the local qwerty-layout, but the non-english stuff is in strange places requiring an extra shift modifier or some idiocy like that. They tend to be painted in a strange color too, so you can find them quicker in those unfamiliar places. The Norwegian blackberry is one such kludgephone. Well, they aren't all English. I have seen German phones too. Most markets are too small though. For an idea of just how irritating this is - imagine if you had a mostly english keyboard where a and q were absent - to be typed in with special shift followed by 1 or 2 respectively. There is no such problem with on-screen keyboards. I made a Norwegian terminal keyboard for my GTA02, with all the keys in the right places. It has more keys than the english terminal keyboard, but that was easy enough - a software fix. I don't think they'll make the GTA03 in 30 different keyboard versions - all painted slightly different and some with different number of keys too. And then some want a dvorak layout - 60 different layouts then. So they'll cut all the small-market keyboards - those that want them can re-paint their keyboards any way they want. :-/ Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Il 17/12/2008 00:28, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer ha scritto: Cinterion mc75i If someone need, here the specifications: http://www.wmocean.com/cinterion-siemens-mc75i/1007431/datasheet_scalableplatformmc75itc65itc63i_175016.pdf ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
Nikolaus, I don't get what's wrong with my questions? 1. About the case design - it was a poll on ML about different types of case - with keypad, without, slider, etc. So I think it make sense to ask what was finally chosen. 2. GSM chip: Look in here how many chips were considered: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoForesight It makes sense to ask which one was chosen, doesn't it? 3. GTA03 is internal codename, like GTA01 and GTA02, but they are called Neo1973 and Neo Freerunner. I seriously doubt GTA03 will go on sale with GTA03 name. 4 and 5, don't want even bother to comment this. Leonti Hello! As proud Freerunner owner I'm interested in how the development of GTA03 goes. I'm not going to buy it - there is still a lot of fun with FR, but it would be interesting to know something about next open phone. Wiki page is outdated and there is no updates on ML. Does someone know how everything is going with gta03? 1. What case design is chosen? A good one. 2. What gsm chip? The best one! 3. How will it be called? GTA03! 4. When is release date (+/- 3 month :)) ? 12:00 (I don't know on which day) 5. Price estimate. Comparable to others. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
[About keyboard] All that you said makes a lot of sense to me. Also, I haven't missed a physical keyboard on the freerunner, if anyone cares. +1 Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
That's a pretty neat device. TCP/IP offload anyone? Or Push on the modem? Also, are we expecting any updates from the page: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA03 Are the prototype boards available to the public? On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 1:58 AM, Michele Renda michele.re...@gmail.com wrote: Il 17/12/2008 00:28, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer ha scritto: Cinterion mc75i If someone need, here the specifications: http://www.wmocean.com/cinterion-siemens-mc75i/1007431/datasheet_scalableplatformmc75itc65itc63i_175016.pdf ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 16:12 +0100, Helge Hafting wrote: Evgeny Karyakin wrote: Dunno... First link propose a case suggesting iPhone look, I think we shouldn't follow everything Apple come out with, and I second to pill case. When I first saw GTA02 look, I thought it's ugly, but that was just because it's unusual; now I like it and like a bottom hole around antenna. The hole is important. You can tie the phone to a string. And it is easier for the do-it-yourselfers to make brackets for car/bicycle use. Now that openvibe is out, perhaps we should put an orange warning label on the back of the freerunner, for the intended use of the hole ;-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
I took the black pill! On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 01:54:00AM -0800, Sargun Dhillon wrote: Meh, I actually like the pill design quite a bit! What's so wrong with the pill? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
I'll just take this opportunity to politely wave a sign for everyone who thinks the GTA03 needs 3G. - Replace the mc75i with a 3.5G modem! Go on, surprise us all! - | | | I wave it on their behalf because they've all left me here while they buy the Android phone. That is all. Justyn. 2008/12/17 Olivier Migeot larry...@gmail.com: On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: That would shine a light on the what is a small... definition! Orange label: WARNING: if it fits, it IS small! :) Maybe we should 3nl4rge the hole. There's pills for that on the internet (and all over my INBOX). -- Olivier ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Stage of GTA03 development?
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 7:02 PM, Justyn Butler justynbutler+openm...@googlemail.com wrote: Replace the mc75i with a 3.5G modem! Go on, surprise us all! I have to agree with Justyn and say that we need a 3G phone. I bought this phone in hopes that I can use it when I travel around. Unfortunately, when I leave the country, it just becomes a toy to play around with and most of the time I have to leave it behind :( ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Stage of GTA03 development?
Hello! As proud Freerunner owner I'm interested in how the development of GTA03 goes. I'm not going to buy it - there is still a lot of fun with FR, but it would be interesting to know something about next open phone. Wiki page is outdated and there is no updates on ML. Does someone know how everything is going with gta03? 1. What case design is chosen? 2. What gsm chip? 3. How will it be called? 4. When is release date (+/- 3 month :)) ? 5. Price estimate. Leonti ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
