Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Thursday 24 April 2008 13:20:12 Carsten Haitzler wrote: again - we could do better if we limited ourselves to just mpeg4 (which is what almost all phones do - they do only 1 codec or maybe 2), but the problem here is that xv does not provide a way to do this sanely (stream just mpeg4 data to x so it decodes in hardware). the graphics chip (glamo) can decode mpeg4 itself, but we dont have the time or resources to do this properly ourselves. So don't use xv? Implement VAAPI (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/vaapi) which does provide an API for streaming MPEG4 streams to hardware. If you had a DRM module for the glamo, couldn't you use it to send MPEG4 encoded video frames to the glamo by packing them into BOs? mplayer-libvaapi.so-glamo_vaapi.so-libdrm.so-kernel-drm.koglamo.ko I guess you'd also need to modify DRI to coordinate with the x server? I know it's not going to happen because of time constraints, but wouldn't this be a better option than trying to bend xv into doing something it doesn't want to do? Cheers, Tom ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 24 April 2008 13:20:12 Carsten Haitzler wrote: again - we could do better if we limited ourselves to just mpeg4 (which is what almost all phones do - they do only 1 codec or maybe 2), but the problem here is that xv does not provide a way to do this sanely (stream just mpeg4 data to x so it decodes in hardware). the graphics chip (glamo) can decode mpeg4 itself, but we dont have the time or resources to do this properly ourselves. So don't use xv? Implement VAAPI (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/vaapi) which does provide an API for streaming MPEG4 streams to hardware. If you had a DRM module for the glamo, couldn't you use it to send MPEG4 encoded video frames to the glamo by packing them into BOs? mplayer-libvaapi.so-glamo_vaapi.so-libdrm.so-kernel-drm.koglamo.ko Modify X server and the mplayer, when playing reserve the entire screen and mplayer write the decoded directly into the framebuffer. This is most straightforward and I have tested against on another platform. Actually, even when use XSHM extension in mplayer, the overhead of copy pixmap from mplayer to framebuffer is very big. Bin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Monday 28 April 2008 10:32:22 Bin Chen wrote: On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Tom Cooksey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 24 April 2008 13:20:12 Carsten Haitzler wrote: again - we could do better if we limited ourselves to just mpeg4 (which is what almost all phones do - they do only 1 codec or maybe 2), but the problem here is that xv does not provide a way to do this sanely (stream just mpeg4 data to x so it decodes in hardware). the graphics chip (glamo) can decode mpeg4 itself, but we dont have the time or resources to do this properly ourselves. So don't use xv? Implement VAAPI (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/vaapi) which does provide an API for streaming MPEG4 streams to hardware. If you had a DRM module for the glamo, couldn't you use it to send MPEG4 encoded video frames to the glamo by packing them into BOs? mplayer-libvaapi.so-glamo_vaapi.so-libdrm.so-kernel-drm.koglamo.ko Modify X server and the mplayer, when playing reserve the entire screen and mplayer write the decoded directly into the framebuffer. This is most straightforward and I have tested against on another platform. Nope, no way. With 7m/s video bandwidth your looking at a theoretical maximum of 12 fps, and that would use 100% CPU just for copying the data to the framebuffer. In fact, I believe that is the worst possible way of doing it. :-) For video playback you need to drop the bandwidth you use. Sending an MPEG4 stream would be ideal as it's about as compressed as it comes, you just (!) need to find a way to tell the glamo to decode it. Does the glamo support compressed texture formats? Could the CPU compress pixmaps, copy them to the video memory and then use the 3D core to decompress them when blitting? I know the compression will eat the CPU, but it might be worth it if it saves on bus bandwidth? Cheers, Tom ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
I think this would be great.. Ideally it would not decode it completely, but simply encode the video with some simpler compression... Another question: if we skip sound, would the decoding be faster? By how much? On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 8:17 AM, Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: just thinking out loud here, for example maybe you have some short videos you want to show to some other people, so u can open an app that checks the amount of memory you have, then checks the amount it needs to do decoding. if it has enough it does the decoding (not at full speed) 'n lets u know when it's complete, then u can watch it 'n decide if u wanna watch it again or delete the decoded part from memory again... not sure if this is possible, not an expert here... On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:47 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:09:51 +0200 ramsesoriginal [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I'm not an expert, so maybe this question is silly, but it just popped to my mind: using mencod, couldn't you decode the video, store it in decoded form and then you have onyl to copy it? If this would be possible, you cold make some sort of video-transfere-applciation where you can set the desidred speed/size/ratio.. again, i have no idea if it's possible, just 2 thoughts from my side.. yes. that's possible. of course your 100mb movie file becomes about 1-2gb now :) maybe more... in theory u should manage [EMAIL PROTECTED] (24fps is movie framerate in the cinemas). as u have almost no decode (though you have to read it from some IO souce). so u need an IO source that can stream 7mb/sec to you (good luck finding that!) but *IF* u did... a 2 hour movie would be about 46gb of data... good luck finding that storage too! :) in other words... not practical to have it unencoded to avoid decoding. i used a 2hr movie just as an example so you know just how much video compression gets you... it saves an AMAZING amount of space. the numbers for pure video source (that is zero quality loss original RGB data) is double that for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (92gb)... in the end beyond a hey my phone is so cool i play high-res video demos of 30 second clips (that woul still be enormous and u wouldnt be able to store more than 1 or 2 anyway - but as a demo to show off its enough), it is just not useful or practical. yes - we can go for simpler compression schmes that still require decode, but just less effort and eerything just adjusts. we spend less decode time, but require more IO bandwidth and vice-versa. once decoded u have a tradeoff of resolution vs frames per second as the pipe u have to send it down is fixed in size. you choose your favorite tradeoff, but somewhere there you will need to make one. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
ramsesoriginal wrote: I think this would be great.. Ideally it would not decode it completely, but simply encode the video with some simpler compression... Another question: if we skip sound, would the decoding be faster? By how much? As a datapoint, most VCD class mpegs/avis I had around played just fine. (150kilobytes/second, 320*240 or so). Yes, they framedropped a bit, and ended up around 15-18fps. Without audio, it's much smoother, as audio decoding - in the mp3 case - used about 25% CPU. If the GTA01 would do rotation in hardware, then dropping to QVGA mode would be completely adequate. Of course, it can't - but this gives some idea. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? On Monday 28 April 2008 08:17:18 Flyin_bbb8 wrote: just thinking out loud here, for example maybe you have some short videos you want to show to some other people, so u can open an app that checks the amount of memory you have, then checks the amount it needs to do decoding. if it has enough it does the decoding (not at full speed) 'n lets u know when it's complete, then u can watch it 'n decide if u wanna watch it again or delete the decoded part from memory again... not sure if this is possible, not an expert here... On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 4:47 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:09:51 +0200 ramsesoriginal [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I'm not an expert, so maybe this question is silly, but it just popped to my mind: using mencod, couldn't you decode the video, store it in decoded form and then you have onyl to copy it? If this would be possible, you cold make some sort of video-transfere-applciation where you can set the desidred speed/size/ratio.. again, i have no idea if it's possible, just 2 thoughts from my side.. yes. that's possible. of course your 100mb movie file becomes about 1-2gb now :) maybe more... in theory u should manage [EMAIL PROTECTED] (24fps is movie framerate in the cinemas). as u have almost no decode (though you have to read it from some IO souce). so u need an IO source that can stream 7mb/sec to you (good luck finding that!) but *IF* u did... a 2 hour movie would be about 46gb of data... good luck finding that storage too! :) in other words... not practical to have it unencoded to avoid decoding. i used a 2hr movie just as an example so you know just how much video compression gets you... it saves an AMAZING amount of space. the numbers for pure video source (that is zero quality loss original RGB data) is double that for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (92gb)... in the end beyond a hey my phone is so cool i play high-res video demos of 30 second clips (that woul still be enormous and u wouldnt be able to store more than 1 or 2 anyway - but as a demo to show off its enough), it is just not useful or practical. yes - we can go for simpler compression schmes that still require decode, but just less effort and eerything just adjusts. we spend less decode time, but require more IO bandwidth and vice-versa. once decoded u have a tradeoff of resolution vs frames per second as the pipe u have to send it down is fixed in size. you choose your favorite tradeoff, but somewhere there you will need to make one. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? USB1.1 only (on the Freerunner) And they are not cheap. (presumably) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On ma, 2008-04-28 at 13:59 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? You'd be looking at 12 Mbit/s max for the USB1.1, not fun. Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Am Montag, den 28.04.2008, 15:12 +0300 schrieb Mikko Rauhala: Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). I'm not sure whether the glamo is able to do mpeg-4 decoding. I just watched the website of this chip (http://www.smediatech.com/product3362.htm) and there you can read the following: The Glamo3365 Mobile Multimedia coProcessor boasts a 5M pixels digital photo resolution image processor. The MPEG4 codec enables 30 frames per second in up to VGA resolution, producing life-like video quality on a mobile phone display. There is nothing about the 3362 (used in FR), isn't it? Please correct me if I'm wrong... Sebastian Billaudelle Please do not send me any Microsoft Office documents - I won't accept them! See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html for more information! Sorry! signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On ma, 2008-04-28 at 16:13 +0200, Jens Fursund wrote: Is mpeg-4 decoding in the Glamo chip only video? Or could we use it to decode audio as well to decrease CPU-time, thereby having more batterytime for playing mpeg4 audio? Video only. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Jens Fursund wrote: Mikko Rauhala wrote: Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). Is mpeg-4 decoding in the Glamo chip only video? Or could we use it to decode audio as well to decrease CPU-time, thereby having more batterytime for playing mpeg4 audio? Video only. It would be lovely if it did audio too, and you could feed it a scatter-gather list of blocks from the SD to play - but no. So we've got to decode the audio in the CPU, and feed the extracted video stream from the file read by the CPU to the video chip. (neglecting the fact that tehre are no drivers) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Basically what I'm curious about is if in the future someone does take the time to figure out and write the appropriate driver for the glamo chip, will we be able to watch movies on the free runner? On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 7:12 AM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ma, 2008-04-28 at 13:59 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? You'd be looking at 12 Mbit/s max for the USB1.1, not fun. Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On ma, 2008-04-28 at 09:26 -0500, Tim Shannon wrote: But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Yes it is. It's just that sending mpeg4 packets to the glamo takes just a _tiny_ bit less bandwidth than sending entire uncompressed frames. (Also the CPU will have more time to spend for doing the I/O.) -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
So generally, when all the drivers, and software are in place, the freerunner is still going to be limited by how much of anything that needs to be streamed off the SD card at one shot. Maybe this was already posted, but what is the bandwidth limit? How many MB/s, etc. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ma, 2008-04-28 at 09:26 -0500, Tim Shannon wrote: But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Yes it is. It's just that sending mpeg4 packets to the glamo takes just a _tiny_ bit less bandwidth than sending entire uncompressed frames. (Also the CPU will have more time to spend for doing the I/O.) -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:26:43 -0500 Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Basically what I'm curious about is if in the future someone does take the time to figure out and write the appropriate driver for the glamo chip, will we be able to watch movies on the free runner? please follow the thread. it *IS* possible. you just need to give up something. resolution or framerate. simple as that. the glamo has limits like any piece of hardware. they are just not very extreme limits. they are rather narrow. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 7:12 AM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ma, 2008-04-28 at 13:59 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? You'd be looking at 12 Mbit/s max for the USB1.1, not fun. Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Monday 28 April 2008 17:31:10 Mikko Rauhala wrote: On ma, 2008-04-28 at 09:26 -0500, Tim Shannon wrote: But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Yes it is. It's just that sending mpeg4 packets to the glamo takes just a _tiny_ bit less bandwidth than sending entire uncompressed frames. Huh? I think (I hope) I've mis-understood you. Surely it depends what bitrate the mpeg4 video stream was encoded at? Personally I encode 640x480 @ 25 fps at about 800 KBit/s for video. Uncompressed 16bpp would be: 640x480x25x16 = 12 KBit/s Surely 800 KBit/s is not just a _tiny_ bit less than 12 KBit/s? Sending compressed MPEG4 video to the glamo is going to be a _lot_ better than sending uncompressed fames! I'm also wondering just _exactly_ what is meant by MPEG4. I'm guessing it means MPEG4 part 2 - but which profile? Probably simple profile given it's a mobile device - which probably means you'll have to transcode all your videos to MPEG4 part-2 simple profile, as most MPEG4 video I've come across is Advanced Simple plus some codec-specific extenstions (Div.X seems to especially like defining their own extensions). However, I believe this limitation affects IPods PSPs, etc. too, so the neo is not alone. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Monday 28 April 2008 17:40:38 Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:26:43 -0500 Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Basically what I'm curious about is if in the future someone does take the time to figure out and write the appropriate driver for the glamo chip, will we be able to watch movies on the free runner? please follow the thread. it *IS* possible. you just need to give up something. resolution or framerate. simple as that. the glamo has limits like any piece of hardware. they are just not very extreme limits. they are rather narrow. Euh, I thought that is it because the glamo and the SD are on the same 'bus' or something that there is a bottleneck, not because of the glamo. Or am I missing something ? W On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 7:12 AM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ma, 2008-04-28 at 13:59 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? You'd be looking at 12 Mbit/s max for the USB1.1, not fun. Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:12:32 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Monday 28 April 2008 17:40:38 Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:26:43 -0500 Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: But isn't it still limited by the bandwidth available from the micro SD card? Maybe I misunderstood that. Basically what I'm curious about is if in the future someone does take the time to figure out and write the appropriate driver for the glamo chip, will we be able to watch movies on the free runner? please follow the thread. it *IS* possible. you just need to give up something. resolution or framerate. simple as that. the glamo has limits like any piece of hardware. they are just not very extreme limits. they are rather narrow. Euh, I thought that is it because the glamo and the SD are on the same 'bus' or something that there is a bottleneck, not because of the glamo. Or am I missing something ? read back. there is a bus between the cpu/system memory and the glamo. this busy is used to: 1. transfer graphics data to and from the video card (glamo) 2. transfer SD IO data to and from the micro-SD card this bus has a limit of about 7.3m/s. to give you an idea of graphics data, 1 RGB565 image @ fullscreen VGA is 600k. you do the math. when you decode a video file it is decoded with the cpu in system ram. the file is read from somewhere (SD card, network, internal flash) which consumes IO bandwidth approximately according to the actual file size (1 minute video, if it is 60mb in size means you consume 1m/s of IO bandwidth, ignoring caching - as cacheing for such large files will be mostly useless). you then need to consume cpu cycles (and memory bandwidth) to decode that video to its native colorspace of YUV (this is not RGB). YUV as used by most video formats uses less space than RGB565 (25% less) so 1 fullscreen VGA frame of video data is 450k. in order for this to be displayed it HAS to be transferred to the video card - across the bus. every amount of time spent copying data to/from the glamo is time that cannot be spent doing something else as the cpu is waiting on the glamo bus. W On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 7:12 AM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ma, 2008-04-28 at 13:59 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if you could use one of those 'coming very soon' Laser projection device(s) connected to USB ? You'd be looking at 12 Mbit/s max for the USB1.1, not fun. Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Ian Stirling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jens Fursund wrote: Mikko Rauhala wrote: Really peeps, face it, seems that the sane way to do non-crappy video on the Freerunner is to get driver support for that Glamo mpeg-4 decoding (remember, the hardware is capable). Hopefully everyone's grasping at straws makes OM bump up the priority a bit (though again, for now there are certainly more important things to do). Is mpeg-4 decoding in the Glamo chip only video? Or could we use it to decode audio as well to decrease CPU-time, thereby having more batterytime for playing mpeg4 audio? Video only. Why we need to choose smedia's product? I remember ATI(AMD) has same product but with audio capability. The sync of video and audio may be a problem if the HW lacks of audio ability. Bin ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Hi Christoph Am Donnerstag, den 24.04.2008, 11:19 +0200 schrieb Christoph Witzany: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). I did some testing on that with GTA01. Please correct me if I misunderstood. Even with GTA01 it was possible - though the tests I made there are not valid for GTA02 (don't have one yet). What I found out with mplayer is: 1) H.264 will take to much time to decompress (even at low bitrates) 2) SDL will be the fastest way to output without HW acceleration 3) using H.263 (as Youtube does) I could get the best compression/bitrate/speed ratio 4) using 320x240 and scale to 640x480 (480x640) is doable Some of those findings are documented at the buttom of http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Video_Player If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Actually with GTA01 I've had 13 fps in fullscreen mode (320x240 - 480x640) which looked really okay and was viewable. A 640x480 H.263 though with reasonable bitrate took to much cpu-power to decode. Anyway, with GTA02 you should take a try - it seems doable in SW even without 2D acceleration, as it just has more cpu power. - try to start with: mencoder -quiet -ofps 13 -vf scale -zoom -xy 352 -af channels=1:0:0:1:0 \ -oac lavc -ovc lavc -lavcopts \ acodec=mp3:vcodec=h263p:autoaspect=1:vbitrate=200:abitrate=32 \ -o outfile infile mplayer -autosync 30 -vf scale -zoom -xy 640 -vf rotate=1 -sws 0 -nodouble \ -vo sdl -fs -framedrop tagetfile Greetings from Berlin Kristian -- /* Web: http://www.mput.de | Tel:+49 (0)170/6692447 * * Blog:http://mput.de/blog | ICQ:93248497* * GPG-ID: 4BBB6525 (..2009) | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * Twitter: kristian_m | MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED] */ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Well, after doing a few tests, (mainly thanks to ahven and SpeedEvil on IRC), the Neo can handle a 160x128 H264 (with CABAC) encoded video at 40kbps with a 12kbps audio track. The fun comes in with the scaling. Scaling to 320x240 with no frame dropping is possible if I encode the video as baseline H264. However, I think the Freerunner, especially with a beefier processor and hardware scaling, should perform quite a bit better. The scaling seems to give quite a big performance hit. Cheers, Federico PS) I do not own a Neo, and I'm not an expert on anything On 4/27/08, Kristian 'kriss' Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Christoph Am Donnerstag, den 24.04.2008, 11:19 +0200 schrieb Christoph Witzany: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). I did some testing on that with GTA01. Please correct me if I misunderstood. Even with GTA01 it was possible - though the tests I made there are not valid for GTA02 (don't have one yet). What I found out with mplayer is: 1) H.264 will take to much time to decompress (even at low bitrates) 2) SDL will be the fastest way to output without HW acceleration 3) using H.263 (as Youtube does) I could get the best compression/bitrate/speed ratio 4) using 320x240 and scale to 640x480 (480x640) is doable Some of those findings are documented at the buttom of http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Video_Player If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Actually with GTA01 I've had 13 fps in fullscreen mode (320x240 - 480x640) which looked really okay and was viewable. A 640x480 H.263 though with reasonable bitrate took to much cpu-power to decode. Anyway, with GTA02 you should take a try - it seems doable in SW even without 2D acceleration, as it just has more cpu power. - try to start with: mencoder -quiet -ofps 13 -vf scale -zoom -xy 352 -af channels=1:0:0:1:0 \ -oac lavc -ovc lavc -lavcopts \ acodec=mp3:vcodec=h263p:autoaspect=1:vbitrate=200:abitrate=32 \ -o outfile infile mplayer -autosync 30 -vf scale -zoom -xy 640 -vf rotate=1 -sws 0 -nodouble \ -vo sdl -fs -framedrop tagetfile Greetings from Berlin Kristian -- /* Web: http://www.mput.de | Tel:+49 (0)170/6692447 * * Blog:http://mput.de/blog | ICQ:93248497* * GPG-ID: 4BBB6525 (..2009) | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * Twitter: kristian_m | MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED] */ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Well, after doing a few tests, (mainly thanks to ahven and SpeedEvil on IRC), the Neo can handle a 160x128 H264 (with CABAC) encoded video at 40kbps with a 12kbps audio track. The fun comes in with the scaling. Scaling to 320x240 with no frame dropping is possible if I encode the video as baseline H264. However, I think the Freerunner, especially with a beefier processor and hardware scaling, should perform quite a bit better. The scaling seems to give quite a big performance hit. Cheers, Federico PS) I do not own a Neo, and I'm not an expert on anything On 4/27/08, Federico Lorenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, after doing a few tests, (mainly thanks to ahven and SpeedEvil on IRC), the Neo can handle a 160x128 H264 (with CABAC) encoded video at 40kbps with a 12kbps audio track. The fun comes in with the scaling. Scaling to 320x240 with no frame dropping is possible if I encode the video as baseline H264. However, I think the Freerunner, especially with a beefier processor and hardware scaling, should perform quite a bit better. The scaling seems to give quite a big performance hit. Cheers, Federico PS) I do not own a Neo, and I'm not an expert on anything On 4/27/08, Kristian 'kriss' Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Christoph Am Donnerstag, den 24.04.2008, 11:19 +0200 schrieb Christoph Witzany: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). I did some testing on that with GTA01. Please correct me if I misunderstood. Even with GTA01 it was possible - though the tests I made there are not valid for GTA02 (don't have one yet). What I found out with mplayer is: 1) H.264 will take to much time to decompress (even at low bitrates) 2) SDL will be the fastest way to output without HW acceleration 3) using H.263 (as Youtube does) I could get the best compression/bitrate/speed ratio 4) using 320x240 and scale to 640x480 (480x640) is doable Some of those findings are documented at the buttom of http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Video_Player If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Actually with GTA01 I've had 13 fps in fullscreen mode (320x240 - 480x640) which looked really okay and was viewable. A 640x480 H.263 though with reasonable bitrate took to much cpu-power to decode. Anyway, with GTA02 you should take a try - it seems doable in SW even without 2D acceleration, as it just has more cpu power. - try to start with: mencoder -quiet -ofps 13 -vf scale -zoom -xy 352 -af channels=1:0:0:1:0 \ -oac lavc -ovc lavc -lavcopts \ acodec=mp3:vcodec=h263p:autoaspect=1:vbitrate=200:abitrate=32 \ -o outfile infile mplayer -autosync 30 -vf scale -zoom -xy 640 -vf rotate=1 -sws 0 -nodouble \ -vo sdl -fs -framedrop tagetfile Greetings from Berlin Kristian -- /* Web: http://www.mput.de | Tel:+49 (0)170/6692447 * * Blog:http://mput.de/blog | ICQ:93248497* * GPG-ID: 4BBB6525 (..2009) | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * Twitter: kristian_m | MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED] */ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:48:53 + Federico Lorenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Well, after doing a few tests, (mainly thanks to ahven and SpeedEvil on IRC), the Neo can handle a 160x128 H264 (with CABAC) encoded video at 40kbps with a 12kbps audio track. The fun comes in with the scaling. Scaling to 320x240 with no frame dropping is possible if I encode the video as baseline H264. However, I think the Freerunner, especially with a beefier processor and hardware scaling, should perform quite a bit better. The scaling seems to give quite a big performance hit. on the freerunner scaling is free (no pun intended) so to speak. that means *IF* you use xvideo - the hardware handles yuv-rgb conversion as well as scaling. there is a hard limit on the amount of data you can transfer to the video card per second (about 7.3 m/sec) and as such will limit resolution and framerate of the source video (as resolution goes up, framerate goes down - like all things, a trade-off). remember that all time spent copying data to video memory is time that can't be spent decoding the actual video data if you copy 7.3m of video to the glamo then you use up 1 second for the copy where you have no time to do any decoding as copying is not done via dma, and even if we did do it with dma (which we tried! we really did!), would lock up the memory bus during this transfer anyway and dma actually proved much slower than using the cpu to do the copy - even for large chunks of data. less than half the speed. so it's all a tradeoff. Cheers, Federico PS) I do not own a Neo, and I'm not an expert on anything On 4/27/08, Kristian 'kriss' Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Christoph Am Donnerstag, den 24.04.2008, 11:19 +0200 schrieb Christoph Witzany: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). I did some testing on that with GTA01. Please correct me if I misunderstood. Even with GTA01 it was possible - though the tests I made there are not valid for GTA02 (don't have one yet). What I found out with mplayer is: 1) H.264 will take to much time to decompress (even at low bitrates) 2) SDL will be the fastest way to output without HW acceleration 3) using H.263 (as Youtube does) I could get the best compression/bitrate/speed ratio 4) using 320x240 and scale to 640x480 (480x640) is doable Some of those findings are documented at the buttom of http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Video_Player If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Actually with GTA01 I've had 13 fps in fullscreen mode (320x240 - 480x640) which looked really okay and was viewable. A 640x480 H.263 though with reasonable bitrate took to much cpu-power to decode. Anyway, with GTA02 you should take a try - it seems doable in SW even without 2D acceleration, as it just has more cpu power. - try to start with: mencoder -quiet -ofps 13 -vf scale -zoom -xy 352 -af channels=1:0:0:1:0 \ -oac lavc -ovc lavc -lavcopts \ acodec=mp3:vcodec=h263p:autoaspect=1:vbitrate=200:abitrate=32 \ -o outfile infile mplayer -autosync 30 -vf scale -zoom -xy 640 -vf rotate=1 -sws 0 -nodouble \ -vo sdl -fs -framedrop tagetfile Greetings from Berlin Kristian -- /* Web: http://www.mput.de | Tel:+49 (0)170/6692447 * * Blog:http://mput.de/blog | ICQ:93248497* * GPG-ID: 4BBB6525 (..2009) | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * Twitter: kristian_m | MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED] */ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 1:42 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 22:48:53 + Federico Lorenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Well, after doing a few tests, (mainly thanks to ahven and SpeedEvil on IRC), the Neo can handle a 160x128 H264 (with CABAC) encoded video at 40kbps with a 12kbps audio track. The fun comes in with the scaling. Scaling to 320x240 with no frame dropping is possible if I encode the video as baseline H264. However, I think the Freerunner, especially with a beefier processor and hardware scaling, should perform quite a bit better. The scaling seems to give quite a big performance hit. on the freerunner scaling is free (no pun intended) so to speak. that means *IF* you use xvideo - the hardware handles yuv-rgb conversion as well as scaling. there is a hard limit on the amount of data you can transfer to the video card per second (about 7.3 m/sec) and as such will limit resolution and framerate of the source video (as resolution goes up, framerate goes down - like all things, a trade-off). remember that all time spent copying data to video memory is time that can't be spent decoding the actual video data if you copy 7.3m of video to the glamo then you use up 1 second for the copy where you have no time to do any decoding as copying is not done via dma, and even if we did do it with dma (which we tried! we really did!), would lock up the memory bus during this transfer anyway and dma actually proved much slower than using the cpu to do the copy - even for large chunks of data. less than half the speed. so it's all a tradeoff. Cheers, Federico PS) I do not own a Neo, and I'm not an expert on anything On 4/27/08, Kristian 'kriss' Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Christoph Am Donnerstag, den 24.04.2008, 11:19 +0200 schrieb Christoph Witzany: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). I did some testing on that with GTA01. Please correct me if I misunderstood. Even with GTA01 it was possible - though the tests I made there are not valid for GTA02 (don't have one yet). What I found out with mplayer is: 1) H.264 will take to much time to decompress (even at low bitrates) 2) SDL will be the fastest way to output without HW acceleration 3) using H.263 (as Youtube does) I could get the best compression/bitrate/speed ratio 4) using 320x240 and scale to 640x480 (480x640) is doable Some of those findings are documented at the buttom of http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Video_Player If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Actually with GTA01 I've had 13 fps in fullscreen mode (320x240 - 480x640) which looked really okay and was viewable. A 640x480 H.263 though with reasonable bitrate took to much cpu-power to decode. Anyway, with GTA02 you should take a try - it seems doable in SW even without 2D acceleration, as it just has more cpu power. - try to start with: mencoder -quiet -ofps 13 -vf scale -zoom -xy 352 -af channels=1:0:0:1:0 \ -oac lavc -ovc lavc -lavcopts \ acodec=mp3:vcodec=h263p:autoaspect=1:vbitrate=200:abitrate=32 \ -o outfile infile mplayer -autosync 30 -vf scale -zoom -xy 640 -vf rotate=1 -sws 0 -nodouble \ -vo sdl -fs -framedrop tagetfile Greetings from Berlin Kristian -- /* Web: http://www.mput.de | Tel:+49 (0)170/6692447 * * Blog:http://mput.de/blog | ICQ:93248497* * GPG-ID: 4BBB6525 (..2009) | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]* * Twitter: kristian_m | MSN:[EMAIL PROTECTED] */ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community I'm not an expert, so maybe this question is silly, but it just popped to my mind: using mencod, couldn't you decode the video, store it in decoded form and then you have onyl to copy it? If this would be possible, you cold make some sort of video-transfere-applciation where you can set the desidred speed/size/ratio.. again, i have no idea if it's possible, just 2 thoughts from my side.. -- My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:09:51 +0200 ramsesoriginal [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I'm not an expert, so maybe this question is silly, but it just popped to my mind: using mencod, couldn't you decode the video, store it in decoded form and then you have onyl to copy it? If this would be possible, you cold make some sort of video-transfere-applciation where you can set the desidred speed/size/ratio.. again, i have no idea if it's possible, just 2 thoughts from my side.. yes. that's possible. of course your 100mb movie file becomes about 1-2gb now :) maybe more... in theory u should manage [EMAIL PROTECTED] (24fps is movie framerate in the cinemas). as u have almost no decode (though you have to read it from some IO souce). so u need an IO source that can stream 7mb/sec to you (good luck finding that!) but *IF* u did... a 2 hour movie would be about 46gb of data... good luck finding that storage too! :) in other words... not practical to have it unencoded to avoid decoding. i used a 2hr movie just as an example so you know just how much video compression gets you... it saves an AMAZING amount of space. the numbers for pure video source (that is zero quality loss original RGB data) is double that for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (92gb)... in the end beyond a hey my phone is so cool i play high-res video demos of 30 second clips (that woul still be enormous and u wouldnt be able to store more than 1 or 2 anyway - but as a demo to show off its enough), it is just not useful or practical. yes - we can go for simpler compression schmes that still require decode, but just less effort and eerything just adjusts. we spend less decode time, but require more IO bandwidth and vice-versa. once decoded u have a tradeoff of resolution vs frames per second as the pipe u have to send it down is fixed in size. you choose your favorite tradeoff, but somewhere there you will need to make one. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 02:26:02 +0200 Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: what freerunner *IS* good at is nice high resolution still images. it is NOT good at motion (animation). that's possibly the simplest way i know to describe its graphics :) great for ebook and text reading. great for your high-res photos. don't expect a media-center out of it with swooshy bits and fanciness and video at wonderful quality and resolutions and framerates. And... How do you consider mapping softwares, for example? I know they don't require so much video output, but the CPU has to decode the maps! I really hope this has nothing to do with this issue (or that is poorly affected) since, it will be another important issue (and quite more blocker imho). mapping is doable. you can sanely render maps in software with the cpu and just upload pixels as they don't change a lot. -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). Please correct me if I misunderstood. Well that could have the potential to kill the Freerunner as consumer product. Just because virtually every other 100$ phone does it which is shaping the consumers' expectations. And while I do not expect to use this feature more than a couple times a month it would make me reconsider using it as my main phone (I'll be using it as development platform, so it doesn't matter for now). I think that this design should be reconsidered as soon as possible if Openmoko really wants to go into the consumer market. PS: What about streaming media from the net? Any musings and/or actual experiences with that? If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) schrieb: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:24:26 +0200 polz [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Thursday 24 April 2008 05:52:52 Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:28:40 +0200 thomasg [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: yup. those 7m/sec (that's write to video ram) is also shared with SD card IO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this means it should be impossible to playback videos in full-screen from an SD card on a gta02. 640*480*25 = 768 and that's with 8bpp. Has anyone tested video playback on a GTA02 yet ? correct. yuv will be w * h * 1.5 bytes for 1 frame (standard video yuv). so 3240x240*1.5*30 (320x240 @ 30fps) = 3.4m/sec - BUT... when u are copying you have ZERO cpu cycles to decode the next video frame. so that means 50% of cpu cycles will be spent ONLY copying video data to video ram. the other 50% u have left to decode the mpeg1/2/4 or whatever video in system ram to a yuv buffer. i would say this is the realistic highest resolution you will get. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the MOST you will get (6.9m/sec), but u have ZERO (or almost) cpu cycles to actually decode the video into yuv. remember here i am assuming use of xvideo and the yuv to rgb conversion and scaling on the glamo - which xglamo does support. if you do software yuv-rgb + scale then its even less fun. with software. the best u will get is 11fps at 640x480 - and this is NO cpu cycles to actually decode the video, convert it to 16bit rgb and scale. in reality i expect you to see 2-5fps in this scenario, maybe eve 1fps. this is ONLY playback if the video data is already in ram - ie the mpeg data is cached. if it is read off internal flash you will pay an IO cost - but it's not shared with the glamo bus. if it is on SD card - you will basically have to now share the IO between SD and graphics. i believe the graphics IO takes precedence over SD card IO, so as long as u keep the glamo gfx bus busy, sd will be on hold until u stop. then some sd io can get through. with the glamo you need to be careful what you do and how you do it. if you can keep something entirely within the glamo - it should be ok. so things like uploaded pixmaps and then blitting them around is ok. video decode is another matter entirely. the glamo has an mpeg4 decoder on it - but we don't have any api to access that directly/sanely and just feed it an mpeg4 stream. any other codec has to be done on the cpu anyway and uploaded across the bus as yuv data. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
I'm gonna still buy the freerunner when as soon as it become avialble and I will work as hard as my non-linux-freak life let me do it. But I have to admit than this video limitation in the neo's video has dissapoint me very deeply. The good news is that I have been disapointed BEFORE I have bought the neo and even Before the freerunner is released so OM gives me the oportunity to decide and evaluate if this is a stopper to buy this phone or not. Can any of the core team confirm this video limitations? --- Christoph Witzany [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). Please correct me if I misunderstood. Well that could have the potential to kill the Freerunner as consumer product. Just because virtually every other 100$ phone does it which is shaping the consumers' expectations. And while I do not expect to use this feature more than a couple times a month it would make me reconsider using it as my main phone (I'll be using it as development platform, so it doesn't matter for now). I think that this design should be reconsidered as soon as possible if Openmoko really wants to go into the consumer market. PS: What about streaming media from the net? Any musings and/or actual experiences with that? If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) schrieb: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:24:26 +0200 polz [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Thursday 24 April 2008 05:52:52 Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:28:40 +0200 thomasg [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: yup. those 7m/sec (that's write to video ram) is also shared with SD card IO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this means it should be impossible to playback videos in full-screen from an SD card on a gta02. 640*480*25 = 768 and that's with 8bpp. Has anyone tested video playback on a GTA02 yet ? correct. yuv will be w * h * 1.5 bytes for 1 frame (standard video yuv). so 3240x240*1.5*30 (320x240 @ 30fps) = 3.4m/sec - BUT... when u are copying you have ZERO cpu cycles to decode the next video frame. so that means 50% of cpu cycles will be spent ONLY copying video data to video ram. the other 50% u have left to decode the mpeg1/2/4 or whatever video in system ram to a yuv buffer. i would say this is the realistic highest resolution you will get. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the MOST you will get (6.9m/sec), but u have ZERO (or almost) cpu cycles to actually decode the video into yuv. remember here i am assuming use of xvideo and the yuv to rgb conversion and scaling on the glamo - which xglamo does support. if you do software yuv-rgb + scale then its even less fun. with software. the best u will get is 11fps at 640x480 - and this is NO cpu cycles to actually decode the video, convert it to 16bit rgb and scale. in reality i expect you to see 2-5fps in this scenario, maybe eve 1fps. this is ONLY playback if the video data is already in ram - ie the mpeg data is cached. if it is read off internal flash you will pay an IO cost - but it's not shared with the glamo bus. if it is on SD card - you will basically have to now share the IO between SD and graphics. i believe the graphics IO takes precedence over SD card IO, so as long as u keep the glamo gfx bus busy, sd will be on hold until u stop. then some sd io can get through. with the glamo you need to be careful what you do and how you do it. if you can keep something entirely within the glamo - it should be ok. so things like uploaded pixmaps and then blitting them around is ok. video decode is another matter entirely. the glamo has an mpeg4 decoder on it - but we don't have any api to access that directly/sanely and just feed it an mpeg4 stream. any other codec has to be done on the cpu anyway and uploaded across the bus as yuv data. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
As written by raster, you can play video at lower resolution. Also implementing support for mpeg4 should help a great deal. David Samblas Martinez pravi: I'm gonna still buy the freerunner when as soon as it become avialble and I will work as hard as my non-linux-freak life let me do it. But I have to admit than this video limitation in the neo's video has dissapoint me very deeply. The good news is that I have been disapointed BEFORE I have bought the neo and even Before the freerunner is released so OM gives me the oportunity to decide and evaluate if this is a stopper to buy this phone or not. Can any of the core team confirm this video limitations? --- Christoph Witzany [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). Please correct me if I misunderstood. Well that could have the potential to kill the Freerunner as consumer product. Just because virtually every other 100$ phone does it which is shaping the consumers' expectations. And while I do not expect to use this feature more than a couple times a month it would make me reconsider using it as my main phone (I'll be using it as development platform, so it doesn't matter for now). I think that this design should be reconsidered as soon as possible if Openmoko really wants to go into the consumer market. PS: What about streaming media from the net? Any musings and/or actual experiences with that? If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) schrieb: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:24:26 +0200 polz [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Thursday 24 April 2008 05:52:52 Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:28:40 +0200 thomasg [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: yup. those 7m/sec (that's write to video ram) is also shared with SD card IO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this means it should be impossible to playback videos in full-screen from an SD card on a gta02. 640*480*25 = 768 and that's with 8bpp. Has anyone tested video playback on a GTA02 yet ? correct. yuv will be w * h * 1.5 bytes for 1 frame (standard video yuv). so 3240x240*1.5*30 (320x240 @ 30fps) = 3.4m/sec - BUT... when u are copying you have ZERO cpu cycles to decode the next video frame. so that means 50% of cpu cycles will be spent ONLY copying video data to video ram. the other 50% u have left to decode the mpeg1/2/4 or whatever video in system ram to a yuv buffer. i would say this is the realistic highest resolution you will get. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the MOST you will get (6.9m/sec), but u have ZERO (or almost) cpu cycles to actually decode the video into yuv. remember here i am assuming use of xvideo and the yuv to rgb conversion and scaling on the glamo - which xglamo does support. if you do software yuv-rgb + scale then its even less fun. with software. the best u will get is 11fps at 640x480 - and this is NO cpu cycles to actually decode the video, convert it to 16bit rgb and scale. in reality i expect you to see 2-5fps in this scenario, maybe eve 1fps. this is ONLY playback if the video data is already in ram - ie the mpeg data is cached. if it is read off internal flash you will pay an IO cost - but it's not shared with the glamo bus. if it is on SD card - you will basically have to now share the IO between SD and graphics. i believe the graphics IO takes precedence over SD card IO, so as long as u keep the glamo gfx bus busy, sd will be on hold until u stop. then some sd io can get through. with the glamo you need to be careful what you do and how you do it. if you can keep something entirely within the glamo - it should be ok. so things like uploaded pixmaps and then blitting them around is ok. video decode is another matter entirely. the glamo has an mpeg4 decoder on it - but we don't have any api to access that directly/sanely and just feed it an mpeg4 stream. any other codec has to be done on the cpu anyway and uploaded across the bus as yuv data. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:19:37 +0200 Christoph Witzany [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). Please correct me if I misunderstood. that is quite possible. 320x240 video would be sane possibly if the source is internal flash instead of SD or maybe 802.11. Well that could have the potential to kill the Freerunner as consumer product. Just because virtually every other 100$ phone does it which is shaping the consumers' expectations. And while I do not expect to use this feature more than a couple times a month it would make me reconsider using it as my main phone (I'll be using it as development platform, so it doesn't matter for now). well we could quietly say nothing and wait until you find out, but my position is just to put the facts out as-is and give you my best interpretation of them. remember every other $100 phone is *NOT* $100 - it is $300 or $400 or $500 - it is SUBSIDISED by the carrier. when you sing up saying you will pay the telco money for the next 12 or 24 months, they subsidies the phone. when the carrier tells the phone maker disable this feature so the customer HAS to pay us to send their photos via email, instead of just using usb or sd-cards they subsidise it further hoping/knowin they will xtort more money from you in services etc. etc. if you want the REAL cost - ask the carrier what you would pay for the phone with NO contract, or find a shop that sells the same phone unlocked. secondly these $100 phones are mostly QVGA, not VGA. we have to fill/drive 4 times as many pixels as they do. thirdly - they don't (mostly) offer wifi. in fact they don't do a lot the freerunner does. an actual $100 phone (that is $100 when unlocked) does very very very very little - the $100 ones u think of are actually much more. I think that this design should be reconsidered as soon as possible if Openmoko really wants to go into the consumer market. it can't be. it's too late in production. freerunner is as-is. with the good and the ugly. we are open about it and at least give you the option of doing something about it, and knowing in advance all the gory details. PS: What about streaming media from the net? Any musings and/or actual experiences with that? If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? you will be able to manage [EMAIL PROTECTED] i expect streamed video. of course if you lower the framerate you can increase the resolution. you can do the math (with 15fps you get 2x the pixels - [EMAIL PROTECTED] for example, [EMAIL PROTECTED] etc.). again - we could do better if we limited ourselves to just mpeg4 (which is what almost all phones do - they do only 1 codec or maybe 2), but the problem here is that xv does not provide a way to do this sanely (stream just mpeg4 data to x so it decodes in hardware). the graphics chip (glamo) can decode mpeg4 itself, but we dont have the time or resources to do this properly ourselves. you are free to do it yourself as we provide all the code, but you would need to reverse-engineer the graphics chip or hope that graphics documentation can be made public. right now you need an NDA to see the docs. Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) schrieb: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:24:26 +0200 polz [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Thursday 24 April 2008 05:52:52 Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:28:40 +0200 thomasg [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: yup. those 7m/sec (that's write to video ram) is also shared with SD card IO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this means it should be impossible to playback videos in full-screen from an SD card on a gta02. 640*480*25 = 768 and that's with 8bpp. Has anyone tested video playback on a GTA02 yet ? correct. yuv will be w * h * 1.5 bytes for 1 frame (standard video yuv). so 3240x240*1.5*30 (320x240 @ 30fps) = 3.4m/sec - BUT... when u are copying you have ZERO cpu cycles to decode the next video frame. so that means 50% of cpu cycles will be spent ONLY copying video data to video ram. the other 50% u have left to decode the mpeg1/2/4 or whatever video in system ram to a yuv buffer. i would say this is the realistic highest resolution you will get. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the MOST you will get (6.9m/sec), but u have ZERO (or almost) cpu cycles to actually decode the video into yuv. remember here i am assuming use of xvideo and the yuv to rgb conversion and scaling on the glamo - which xglamo does support. if you do software yuv-rgb + scale then its even less fun. with software. the best u will get is 11fps at 640x480 - and this is NO cpu cycles to actually decode the video, convert it to 16bit rgb and scale. in reality i expect you to see 2-5fps in this scenario, maybe eve 1fps. this is ONLY
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:44:50 +0200 (CEST) David Samblas Martinez [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I'm gonna still buy the freerunner when as soon as it become avialble and I will work as hard as my non-linux-freak life let me do it. But I have to admit than this video limitation in the neo's video has dissapoint me very deeply. The good news is that I have been disapointed BEFORE I have bought the neo and even Before the freerunner is released so OM gives me the oportunity to decide and evaluate if this is a stopper to buy this phone or not. Can any of the core team confirm this video limitations? did you read my mail? :) it has limitations. i detailed them in my previous email. :) (yes - i'm core team). --- Christoph Witzany [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). Please correct me if I misunderstood. Well that could have the potential to kill the Freerunner as consumer product. Just because virtually every other 100$ phone does it which is shaping the consumers' expectations. And while I do not expect to use this feature more than a couple times a month it would make me reconsider using it as my main phone (I'll be using it as development platform, so it doesn't matter for now). I think that this design should be reconsidered as soon as possible if Openmoko really wants to go into the consumer market. PS: What about streaming media from the net? Any musings and/or actual experiences with that? If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) schrieb: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:24:26 +0200 polz [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Thursday 24 April 2008 05:52:52 Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:28:40 +0200 thomasg [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: yup. those 7m/sec (that's write to video ram) is also shared with SD card IO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this means it should be impossible to playback videos in full-screen from an SD card on a gta02. 640*480*25 = 768 and that's with 8bpp. Has anyone tested video playback on a GTA02 yet ? correct. yuv will be w * h * 1.5 bytes for 1 frame (standard video yuv). so 3240x240*1.5*30 (320x240 @ 30fps) = 3.4m/sec - BUT... when u are copying you have ZERO cpu cycles to decode the next video frame. so that means 50% of cpu cycles will be spent ONLY copying video data to video ram. the other 50% u have left to decode the mpeg1/2/4 or whatever video in system ram to a yuv buffer. i would say this is the realistic highest resolution you will get. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the MOST you will get (6.9m/sec), but u have ZERO (or almost) cpu cycles to actually decode the video into yuv. remember here i am assuming use of xvideo and the yuv to rgb conversion and scaling on the glamo - which xglamo does support. if you do software yuv-rgb + scale then its even less fun. with software. the best u will get is 11fps at 640x480 - and this is NO cpu cycles to actually decode the video, convert it to 16bit rgb and scale. in reality i expect you to see 2-5fps in this scenario, maybe eve 1fps. this is ONLY playback if the video data is already in ram - ie the mpeg data is cached. if it is read off internal flash you will pay an IO cost - but it's not shared with the glamo bus. if it is on SD card - you will basically have to now share the IO between SD and graphics. i believe the graphics IO takes precedence over SD card IO, so as long as u keep the glamo gfx bus busy, sd will be on hold until u stop. then some sd io can get through. with the glamo you need to be careful what you do and how you do it. if you can keep something entirely within the glamo - it should be ok. so things like uploaded pixmaps and then blitting them around is ok. video decode is another matter entirely. the glamo has an mpeg4 decoder on it - but we don't have any api to access that directly/sanely and just feed it an mpeg4 stream. any other codec has to be done on the cpu anyway and uploaded across the bus as yuv data. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community __ Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada más inteligente. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) schrieb: snip 320x240 video would be sane possibly if the source is internal flash instead of SD or maybe 802.11. Well ... that is not so bad ... even if the fact that sd card cannot be the source for is a bit sad ... Well that could have the potential to kill the Freerunner as consumer product. Just because virtually every other 100$ phone does it which is shaping the consumers' expectations. And while I do not expect to use this feature more than a couple times a month it would make me reconsider using it as my main phone (I'll be using it as development platform, so it doesn't matter for now). well we could quietly say nothing and wait until you find out, but my position is just to put the facts out as-is and give you my best interpretation of them. Yes that's the great thing about openmoko, and my intent was definitely not to shoot the messenger. It's *much* better to know now than to find out. remember every other $100 phone is *NOT* $100 - it is $300 or $400 or $500 - it is SUBSIDISED by the carrier. when you sing up saying you will pay the telco money for the next 12 or 24 months, they subsidies the phone. when the carrier tells the phone maker disable this feature so the customer HAS to pay us to send their photos via email, instead of just using usb or sd-cards they subsidise it further hoping/knowin they will xtort more money from you in services etc. etc. if you want the REAL cost - ask the carrier what you would pay for the phone with NO contract, or find a shop that sells the same phone unlocked. Well, no, I'm aware of this. I really meant 100$ phone (without contract and carrier subsidising, and yes I priced in the feature inflation til autumn when the Freerunner will have to compete with other phones). secondly these $100 phones are mostly QVGA, not VGA. we have to fill/drive 4 times as many pixels as they do. Valid point, but as you said the Freerunner will not be able to play QVGA from the SD Card ... thirdly - they don't (mostly) offer wifi. in fact they don't do a lot the freerunner does. an actual $100 phone (that is $100 when unlocked) does very very very very little - the $100 ones u think of are actually much more. Well I estimate that in autumn the Motorola K1 will be in that range, eg. It does not have WLAN, of course, and it doesn't even have QVGA. However I did not want to make a point about the openmoko's capabilities vs. such a cheap phone. *I* still think the freerunner is worth every penny of the 400$. I wanted to make a point about *consumer expectations*. And if even a phone like the K1 plays Video, people will expect a device of freerunners class to have this capability. I think that this design should be reconsidered as soon as possible if Openmoko really wants to go into the consumer market. it can't be. it's too late in production. freerunner is as-is. with the good and the ugly. we are open about it and at least give you the option of doing something about it, and knowing in advance all the gory details. Well of course not for the Freerunner (GTA2). And I'm very happy that it's far too late for that because that means I'm gonna have mine soon. But for GTA3 this should be considered as an *very* important issue. But that should go to another thread then. And again thank you for the detailed explanation of the really gory details :) PS: What about streaming media from the net? Any musings and/or actual experiences with that? If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? you will be able to manage [EMAIL PROTECTED] i expect streamed video. of course if you lower the framerate you can increase the resolution. you can do the math (with 15fps you get 2x the pixels - [EMAIL PROTECTED] for example, [EMAIL PROTECTED] etc.). In a way that is great for my project that aims to develop a grid based filesystem for mobile devices ;) again - we could do better if we limited ourselves to just mpeg4 (which is what almost all phones do - they do only 1 codec or maybe 2), but the problem here is that xv does not provide a way to do this sanely (stream just mpeg4 data to x so it decodes in hardware). the graphics chip (glamo) can decode mpeg4 itself, but we dont have the time or resources to do this properly ourselves. you are free to do it yourself as we provide all the code, but you would need to reverse-engineer the graphics chip or hope that graphics documentation can be made public. right now you need an NDA to see the docs. I'd love to see this, but as I'm not in the position to put considerable efford into this either I will just shut up and not complain :) snip ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
I know and I'm sorry if I was missunderstood I'm not complaining about I will be unable to play video, I complaining about Have a 640x480 resolution screen and not able to play at 640x480 resolution. Well more than complaining about this is that I believe that with that cpu and graphical power I will be able to do that, maybe not now but developing the glamo drivers it would be posible, but today I realize that is a bus issue so no matter how much Hz and features drivers had read the sd and play 640x480x25fps at time doesn't fit in the pipe, and we cannot change the tube. But again is all about my own expectations and the ignorace about the shared sd/graphics bus issue. Cuestions:, It will be able to play full screen at 480*320*25=5.6 m/s ? 1.4 M/s is enought to read the video on the sd at same time?? I if I not wrong mp4 ratio is 16:1 so 1.4*16=22.4 max raw video data in the 1.4 pipe so seems to be enough even for a less cpu eater video compresion. I will be able to live with a little pixelation ;)(a lot of irony in this phrase in the era of youtube fullscreen videos on 1280x1024 screen) --- Peter Kraker [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: As written by raster, you can play video at lower resolution. Also implementing support for mpeg4 should help a great deal. David Samblas Martinez pravi: I'm gonna still buy the freerunner when as soon as it become avialble and I will work as hard as my non-linux-freak life let me do it. But I have to admit than this video limitation in the neo's video has dissapoint me very deeply. The good news is that I have been disapointed BEFORE I have bought the neo and even Before the freerunner is released so OM gives me the oportunity to decide and evaluate if this is a stopper to buy this phone or not. Can any of the core team confirm this video limitations? --- Christoph Witzany [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). Please correct me if I misunderstood. Well that could have the potential to kill the Freerunner as consumer product. Just because virtually every other 100$ phone does it which is shaping the consumers' expectations. And while I do not expect to use this feature more than a couple times a month it would make me reconsider using it as my main phone (I'll be using it as development platform, so it doesn't matter for now). I think that this design should be reconsidered as soon as possible if Openmoko really wants to go into the consumer market. PS: What about streaming media from the net? Any musings and/or actual experiences with that? If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) schrieb: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:24:26 +0200 polz [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Thursday 24 April 2008 05:52:52 Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:28:40 +0200 thomasg [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: yup. those 7m/sec (that's write to video ram) is also shared with SD card IO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this means it should be impossible to playback videos in full-screen from an SD card on a gta02. 640*480*25 = 768 and that's with 8bpp. Has anyone tested video playback on a GTA02 yet ? correct. yuv will be w * h * 1.5 bytes for 1 frame (standard video yuv). so 3240x240*1.5*30 (320x240 @ 30fps) = 3.4m/sec - BUT... when u are copying you have ZERO cpu cycles to decode the next video frame. so that means 50% of cpu cycles will be spent ONLY copying video data to video ram. the other 50% u have left to decode the mpeg1/2/4 or whatever video in system ram to a yuv buffer. i would say this is the realistic highest resolution you will get. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the MOST you will get (6.9m/sec), but u have ZERO (or almost) cpu cycles to actually decode the video into yuv. remember here i am assuming use of xvideo and the yuv to rgb conversion and scaling on the glamo - which xglamo does support. if you do software yuv-rgb + scale then its even less fun. with software. the best u will get is 11fps at 640x480 - and this is NO cpu cycles to actually decode the video, convert it to 16bit rgb and scale. in reality i expect you to see 2-5fps in this scenario, maybe eve 1fps. this is ONLY playback if the video data is already
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:06:32 +0200 Christoph Witzany [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) schrieb: snip 320x240 video would be sane possibly if the source is internal flash instead of SD or maybe 802.11. Well ... that is not so bad ... even if the fact that sd card cannot be the source for is a bit sad ... i can say now - 320x240 mpeg4 video with mplayer using xvideo on the gta02 even can't play at 30fps. i was wrong with my guess. it is dropping 25% of the frames. so as such actually i correct this. i was too optimistic. you can more likely manage 20fps @ 320x240. this is mpeg4 - so mpeg1 and 2 may be better as they are simpler codecs. do remember when i say resolution - i mean the video itself. the hardware can SCALE it to fill the screen, but this is taking 320x240 video and scaling it up (adding blur) so of course the quality isn't that good. remember too that color information is half that resolution in each dimension again (160x120 - though depends on codec). so you will be able to play video - and fill the screen, but the SOURCE video will need to be encoded at a lower framerate or resolution. you will pay a quality price one way or another. Well that could have the potential to kill the Freerunner as consumer product. Just because virtually every other 100$ phone does it which is shaping the consumers' expectations. And while I do not expect to use this feature more than a couple times a month it would make me reconsider using it as my main phone (I'll be using it as development platform, so it doesn't matter for now). well we could quietly say nothing and wait until you find out, but my position is just to put the facts out as-is and give you my best interpretation of them. Yes that's the great thing about openmoko, and my intent was definitely not to shoot the messenger. It's *much* better to know now than to find out. :) remember every other $100 phone is *NOT* $100 - it is $300 or $400 or $500 - it is SUBSIDISED by the carrier. when you sing up saying you will pay the telco money for the next 12 or 24 months, they subsidies the phone. when the carrier tells the phone maker disable this feature so the customer HAS to pay us to send their photos via email, instead of just using usb or sd-cards they subsidise it further hoping/knowin they will xtort more money from you in services etc. etc. if you want the REAL cost - ask the carrier what you would pay for the phone with NO contract, or find a shop that sells the same phone unlocked. Well, no, I'm aware of this. I really meant 100$ phone (without contract and carrier subsidising, and yes I priced in the feature inflation til autumn when the Freerunner will have to compete with other phones). secondly these $100 phones are mostly QVGA, not VGA. we have to fill/drive 4 times as many pixels as they do. Valid point, but as you said the Freerunner will not be able to play QVGA from the SD Card ... yup. can't manage it anyway - not 30fps. 20fps - yes. but not from SD. actully just did a test. 320x24- video played off SD card (uncached - i am pretty sure). same video as above - i went down from 21 to 19fps for sdcard. so right now i'd be feeling ok saying QVGA @ 15fps video is ok (scaled up ok). thirdly - they don't (mostly) offer wifi. in fact they don't do a lot the freerunner does. an actual $100 phone (that is $100 when unlocked) does very very very very little - the $100 ones u think of are actually much more. Well I estimate that in autumn the Motorola K1 will be in that range, eg. It does not have WLAN, of course, and it doesn't even have QVGA. However I did not want to make a point about the openmoko's capabilities vs. such a cheap phone. *I* still think the freerunner is worth every penny of the 400$. I wanted to make a point about *consumer expectations*. And if even a phone like the K1 plays Video, people will expect a device of freerunners class to have this capability. i know. no need to tell me :) you're preaching to the choir. hell preaching to the priest. :) graphics are my thing. it's what i do. i know where freerunner stands. i see no reason to be over-optimistic about it. we with squeeze a bit more out of it, but frankly with each squeeze comes a mountain more effort to get there. at some point you need to know where to call it quits. :( more WORK can be done - but you are not going to double its speed. there are hardware limitations we just won't be beating the walls down of :( I think that this design should be reconsidered as soon as possible if Openmoko really wants to go into the consumer market. it can't be. it's too late in production. freerunner is as-is. with the good and the ugly. we are open about it and at least give you the option of doing something about it, and knowing in advance all the gory details. Well of course not for the Freerunner (GTA2). And
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:00:33 +0200 (CEST) David Samblas Martinez [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: I know and I'm sorry if I was missunderstood I'm not complaining about I will be unable to play video, I complaining about Have a 640x480 resolution screen and not able to play at 640x480 resolution. no. but it can SCALE lower resolution video UP to 640x480. see my other mails. Well more than complaining about this is that I believe that with that cpu and graphical power I will be able to do that, maybe not now but developing the glamo drivers it would be posible, but today I realize that is a bus issue so no matter how much Hz and features drivers had read the sd and play 640x480x25fps at time doesn't fit in the pipe, and we cannot change the tube. But again is all about my own expectations and the ignorace about the shared sd/graphics bus issue. Cuestions:, It will be able to play full screen at 480*320*25=5.6 m/s ? 1.4 M/s is enought to read the video on the sd at same time?? see my other mail. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is not possible. off sd card about 19fps is the limit @ 320x240. 21fps if from internal flash. i did actual tests. mpeg4 video. I if I not wrong mp4 ratio is 16:1 so 1.4*16=22.4 max depends on your compression quality. can be anything. raw video data in the 1.4 pipe so seems to be enough even for a less cpu eater video compresion. nup. did benchmarks. you need cpu for the DECODE. every second u spend copying data to video ram (the cpu does the copy - there is no usable dma. while the cpu copies - it is not decoding). so if you fill up the glamo bus (7m/s) u will do 0 decoding. I will be able to live with a little pixelation ;)(a lot of irony in this phrase in the era of youtube fullscreen videos on 1280x1024 screen) --- Peter Kraker [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: As written by raster, you can play video at lower resolution. Also implementing support for mpeg4 should help a great deal. David Samblas Martinez pravi: I'm gonna still buy the freerunner when as soon as it become avialble and I will work as hard as my non-linux-freak life let me do it. But I have to admit than this video limitation in the neo's video has dissapoint me very deeply. The good news is that I have been disapointed BEFORE I have bought the neo and even Before the freerunner is released so OM gives me the oportunity to decide and evaluate if this is a stopper to buy this phone or not. Can any of the core team confirm this video limitations? --- Christoph Witzany [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: As I understood Video playback will be virtually impossible on the freerunner, at least from the sd card (which is the only sensible location to store videos on the neo ftm). Please correct me if I misunderstood. Well that could have the potential to kill the Freerunner as consumer product. Just because virtually every other 100$ phone does it which is shaping the consumers' expectations. And while I do not expect to use this feature more than a couple times a month it would make me reconsider using it as my main phone (I'll be using it as development platform, so it doesn't matter for now). I think that this design should be reconsidered as soon as possible if Openmoko really wants to go into the consumer market. PS: What about streaming media from the net? Any musings and/or actual experiences with that? If I interpreted Carsten right 640x480 video will display at 5-10 fps at best, right? Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) schrieb: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:24:26 +0200 polz [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On Thursday 24 April 2008 05:52:52 Carsten Haitzler wrote: On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:28:40 +0200 thomasg [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: yup. those 7m/sec (that's write to video ram) is also shared with SD card IO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this means it should be impossible to playback videos in full-screen from an SD card on a gta02. 640*480*25 = 768 and that's with 8bpp. Has anyone tested video playback on a GTA02 yet ? correct. yuv will be w * h * 1.5 bytes for 1 frame (standard video yuv). so 3240x240*1.5*30 (320x240 @ 30fps) = 3.4m/sec - BUT... when u are copying you have ZERO cpu cycles to decode the next video frame. so that means 50% of cpu cycles will be spent ONLY copying video data to video ram. the other 50% u have left to decode the mpeg1/2/4 or whatever video in system ram to a yuv buffer. i
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
to, 2008-04-24 kello 19:20 +0800, Carsten Haitzler kirjoitti: the graphics chip (glamo) can decode mpeg4 itself, but we dont have the time or resources to do this properly ourselves. you are free to do it yourself as we provide all the code, but you would need to reverse-engineer the graphics chip or hope that graphics documentation can be made public. right now you need an NDA to see the docs. Righto. Of course, I'll be still buying the phone regardless, but I would hope OM toss some resources this way _after_ getting the system otherwise mass-market operational (or yeah, at least get the mpeg decoding part independently and publicly documented as was alluded to as a possibility with the glamo anyway). Leaving it totally unsupported in these conditions would be somewhat downletting. (Again, talking extended duration here, I don't mind it being unsupported for now.) And for my two cents, screw properly if it gets too much in the way. A device node that takes ioctls for geometry and mpeg-4 packets to decode? If that's what it takes to get the functionality... And hey, any crappy implementation would at least provide information for Somebody Else to perhaps make it cleaner. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
I think the highest priority in general should be getting the proper drivers written for the GPU on the Freerunner, it seems like such a waste to have it, and not be able to use it. On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: to, 2008-04-24 kello 19:20 +0800, Carsten Haitzler kirjoitti: the graphics chip (glamo) can decode mpeg4 itself, but we dont have the time or resources to do this properly ourselves. you are free to do it yourself as we provide all the code, but you would need to reverse-engineer the graphics chip or hope that graphics documentation can be made public. right now you need an NDA to see the docs. Righto. Of course, I'll be still buying the phone regardless, but I would hope OM toss some resources this way _after_ getting the system otherwise mass-market operational (or yeah, at least get the mpeg decoding part independently and publicly documented as was alluded to as a possibility with the glamo anyway). Leaving it totally unsupported in these conditions would be somewhat downletting. (Again, talking extended duration here, I don't mind it being unsupported for now.) And for my two cents, screw properly if it gets too much in the way. A device node that takes ioctls for geometry and mpeg-4 packets to decode? If that's what it takes to get the functionality... And hey, any crappy implementation would at least provide information for Somebody Else to perhaps make it cleaner. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Thank you for this answer. I think that this is the only (or one of a few) firm in the world that treat this customers as *partner* no only as *consumers*. I know is not easy for a firm to speak about *defects* of a product that their are starting to produce, but in my opinion is better so, so a person can choose with knowing what he will buy! This according me is the magic part of open development. A *customer* is a protagonist, not only an *animal* that must only to buy the new model! I will spend my 400$ (or more, because I am living outside US) to buy a product that has defects, because i appreciate, more that all, the transparency that Openmoko is showing to me. Thank you ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Video Playback virtually impossible on Neo Freerunner? (Re: Video of Qt 4.4 on Neo1973: brings iPhone like graphics)
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: what freerunner *IS* good at is nice high resolution still images. it is NOT good at motion (animation). that's possibly the simplest way i know to describe its graphics :) great for ebook and text reading. great for your high-res photos. don't expect a media-center out of it with swooshy bits and fanciness and video at wonderful quality and resolutions and framerates. And... How do you consider mapping softwares, for example? I know they don't require so much video output, but the CPU has to decode the maps! I really hope this has nothing to do with this issue (or that is poorly affected) since, it will be another important issue (and quite more blocker imho). -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
