Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
Al Johnson wrote: On Thursday 05 February 2009, Helge Hafting wrote: arne anka wrote: (http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WONR=2009012 344A2KC=A2FT=Ddate=20090122DB=EPODOClocale=en_US) i didn't read it fully, but how does that differ from a simple hub or the common docking station well known to notebook users? and it what respect exactly is it not obvious? Yeah, it is jsut like the docking stations used for laptops. Doing exactly the same with a *phone*, now that phones almost are notebooks - wasn't obvious to microsoft or that patent office, it seems. The patent office sees obviousness differently to engineers. Having a patent for something on a tractor for a particular reason doesn't stop someone getting a patent on the exact same thing for the same reason on a fork lift. Somehow it isn't obvious that if it works in one situation it'll also work in a similar one. They see moving the idea from one type of vehicle to another as an inventive step rather than an application of the blindingly obvious. Hm. But in that case, I won't be infringing if I do the same thing on a car. The tractor guy only has a patent for tractor application. So perhaps a cradle for an _open source_ phone isn't covered then. :-) Or maybe an openmoko communication device. It isn't a phone, it is a thing that has phone capabilities as one of many uses. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
2009/2/5 Al Johnson openm...@mazikeen.demon.co.uk: On Thursday 05 February 2009, Helge Hafting wrote: arne anka wrote: (http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WONR=2009012 344A2KC=A2FT=Ddate=20090122DB=EPODOClocale=en_US) i didn't read it fully, but how does that differ from a simple hub or the common docking station well known to notebook users? and it what respect exactly is it not obvious? Yeah, it is jsut like the docking stations used for laptops. Doing exactly the same with a *phone*, now that phones almost are notebooks - wasn't obvious to microsoft or that patent office, it seems. The patent office sees obviousness differently to engineers. Having a patent for something on a tractor for a particular reason doesn't stop someone getting a patent on the exact same thing for the same reason on a fork lift. Somehow it isn't obvious that if it works in one situation it'll also work in a similar one. They see moving the idea from one type of vehicle to another as an inventive step rather than an application of the blindingly obvious. Hm, but aren't there already host mode phones which can dock into cradles like this? Didn't at least one of the HTC phones have this sort of capability? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
arne anka wrote: (http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WONR=2009012344A2KC=A2FT=Ddate=20090122DB=EPODOClocale=en_US) i didn't read it fully, but how does that differ from a simple hub or the common docking station well known to notebook users? and it what respect exactly is it not obvious? Yeah, it is jsut like the docking stations used for laptops. Doing exactly the same with a *phone*, now that phones almost are notebooks - wasn't obvious to microsoft or that patent office, it seems. Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
On Thursday 05 February 2009, Helge Hafting wrote: arne anka wrote: (http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WONR=2009012 344A2KC=A2FT=Ddate=20090122DB=EPODOClocale=en_US) i didn't read it fully, but how does that differ from a simple hub or the common docking station well known to notebook users? and it what respect exactly is it not obvious? Yeah, it is jsut like the docking stations used for laptops. Doing exactly the same with a *phone*, now that phones almost are notebooks - wasn't obvious to microsoft or that patent office, it seems. The patent office sees obviousness differently to engineers. Having a patent for something on a tractor for a particular reason doesn't stop someone getting a patent on the exact same thing for the same reason on a fork lift. Somehow it isn't obvious that if it works in one situation it'll also work in a similar one. They see moving the idea from one type of vehicle to another as an inventive step rather than an application of the blindingly obvious. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
Do you mean this one? http://openinventionnetwork.com/ heck, no. if i read that right they too work by taking out patents. looked again and found it (it's the eff itself) http://www.eff.org/patent/wanted/ i am all for invalidating such patents, not patent something yourself instead -- be it for what good cause ever. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
microsoft patent with idea's from this list
I've just read a (Dutch) news article (http://tweakers.net/nieuws/58158/microsoft-wil-brug-tussen-smartphone-en-pc- patenteren.html) which describes a new patent microsoft filed. In the article is a link to an English description of the patent. (http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WONR=2009012344A2KC=A2FT=Ddate=20090122DB=EPODOClocale=en_US) The patent describes a dock for a smartphone, which connects to external devices such as a keyboard, mouse, screen,... wired or wireless. Now I think Openmoko already does a lot of these things, and other things have already been thought of. We can already hook up wired and wireless devices (such as mice and keyboards) to the Freerunner. I'm almost sure someone suggested hooking up an external screen to it. That's technically not possible, but it's been thought of. Integrating the wired connection between FR and the external devices has also been thought of earlier in this list. I'm not a lawyer, but since the patent was published on the 22th of January, I think for some parts of this patent, there is some sort of prior art involved. Also it wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft and Apple are eavesdropping on this list. (Note to Microsoft and Apple: Please don't steal our idea's. If you do: Please die a slow and painfull death.) mvg, depeje signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
Peter Nijs wrote: I've just read a (Dutch) news article (http://tweakers.net/nieuws/58158/microsoft-wil-brug-tussen-smartphone-en-pc- patenteren.html) which describes a new patent microsoft filed. In the article is a link to an English description of the patent. (http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WONR=2009012344A2KC=A2FT=Ddate=20090122DB=EPODOClocale=en_US) The patent describes a dock for a smartphone, which connects to external devices such as a keyboard, mouse, screen,... wired or wireless. Now I think Openmoko already does a lot of these things, and other things have already been thought of. We can already hook up wired and wireless devices (such as mice and keyboards) to the Freerunner. I'm almost sure someone suggested hooking up an external screen to it. That's technically not possible, but it's been thought of. Integrating the wired connection between FR and the external devices has also been thought of earlier in this list. wikipedia says: a patent application must include one or more claims defining the invention which must be new, inventive, and useful or industrially applicable. one or more means that even if prior art exists, it can still be patented. This is different from intellectual property where anteriority prevent copyright. (at least in france) I'm not a lawyer, but since the patent was published on the 22th of January, I think for some parts of this patent, there is some sort of prior art involved. Also it wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft and Apple are eavesdropping on this list. (Note to Microsoft and Apple: Please don't steal our idea's. If you do: Please die a slow and painfull death.) mvg, depeje ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
Incredible. If I was the person that submitted this patent application, I would have done it under a false name, simply because I would have been ashamed. A great example of Patent System abuse. md -- Jon maddog Hall Executive Director Linux International(R) email: mad...@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association Board Member Emeritus: USENIX Association (2000-2006) (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other countries. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
one or more means that even if prior art exists, it can still be patented. This is different from intellectual property where anteriority prevent copyright. (at least in france) I think the issue here is in your word it. If it is the concept of a docking station, then there is prior art and that concept can not be patented. If it is the concept of automatic detection and configuration, there is plenty of prior art for that, and unless they have come up with something completely novel, then that would be thrown out also. At a cursory glance, I could not see anything that I considered novel. The problem with a patent like this one is that the patent itself is so broad MS would try to apply it to everything if it were granted. A daughter card for a motherboard could conceivably fit under this patent. md -- Jon maddog Hall Executive Director Linux International(R) email: mad...@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association Board Member Emeritus: USENIX Association (2000-2006) (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other countries. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
On Tuesday 03 February 2009 15:11:40 Mathieu Rochette wrote: Peter Nijs wrote: I've just read a (Dutch) news article (http://tweakers.net/nieuws/58158/microsoft-wil-brug-tussen-smartphone-en -pc- patenteren.html) which describes a new patent microsoft filed. In the article is a link to an English description of the patent. (http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WONR=20090123 44A2KC=A2FT=Ddate=20090122DB=EPODOClocale=en_US) The patent describes a dock for a smartphone, which connects to external devices such as a keyboard, mouse, screen,... wired or wireless. Now I think Openmoko already does a lot of these things, and other things have already been thought of. We can already hook up wired and wireless devices (such as mice and keyboards) to the Freerunner. I'm almost sure someone suggested hooking up an external screen to it. That's technically not possible, but it's been thought of. Integrating the wired connection between FR and the external devices has also been thought of earlier in this list. wikipedia says: a patent application must include one or more claims defining the invention which must be new, inventive, and useful or industrially applicable. one or more means that even if prior art exists, it can still be patented. This is different from intellectual property where anteriority prevent copyright. (at least in france) But it also seas it must be new. Which it isn't because it has been suggested on this list before. I'm not a lawyer, but since the patent was published on the 22th of January, I think for some parts of this patent, there is some sort of prior art involved. Also it wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft and Apple are eavesdropping on this list. (Note to Microsoft and Apple: Please don't steal our idea's. If you do: Please die a slow and painfull death.) mvg, depeje ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
Peter Nijs wrote: On Tuesday 03 February 2009 15:11:40 Mathieu Rochette wrote: Peter Nijs wrote: I've just read a (Dutch) news article (http://tweakers.net/nieuws/58158/microsoft-wil-brug-tussen-smartphone-en -pc- patenteren.html) which describes a new patent microsoft filed. In the article is a link to an English description of the patent. (http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WONR=20090123 44A2KC=A2FT=Ddate=20090122DB=EPODOClocale=en_US) The patent describes a dock for a smartphone, which connects to external devices such as a keyboard, mouse, screen,... wired or wireless. Now I think Openmoko already does a lot of these things, and other things have already been thought of. We can already hook up wired and wireless devices (such as mice and keyboards) to the Freerunner. I'm almost sure someone suggested hooking up an external screen to it. That's technically not possible, but it's been thought of. Integrating the wired connection between FR and the external devices has also been thought of earlier in this list. wikipedia says: a patent application must include one or more claims defining the invention which must be new, inventive, and useful or industrially applicable. one or more means that even if prior art exists, it can still be patented. This is different from intellectual property where anteriority prevent copyright. (at least in france) But it also seas it must be new. Which it isn't because it has been suggested on this list before. (usefull, industrially applicable) IS one or more of (new, inventive, usefull, industrially applicable)). So if it hasn't yet been patented, it can. No need to be new. I do not like patent but it's how it is. I'm not a lawyer, but since the patent was published on the 22th of January, I think for some parts of this patent, there is some sort of prior art involved. Also it wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft and Apple are eavesdropping on this list. (Note to Microsoft and Apple: Please don't steal our idea's. If you do: Please die a slow and painfull death.) mvg, depeje ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
Peter Nijs wrote: I'm almost sure someone suggested hooking up an external screen to it. That's technically not possible Isn't it? You can get external USB gfx cards these days. Whether FR has the power to drive one, or if there are FOSS drivers, I have no idea. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/microsoft-patent-with-idea%27s-from-this-list-tp2263321p2263942.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
On Tuesday 03 February 2009, Gothnet wrote: Peter Nijs wrote: I'm almost sure someone suggested hooking up an external screen to it. That's technically not possible Isn't it? You can get external USB gfx cards these days. Whether FR has the power to drive one, or if there are FOSS drivers, I have no idea. IIRC the problem was that nobody could find one that would work with USB 1.1 because the bandwidth requirement was too high. Alternative proposals involved something like VNC or NX, but the display adaptor would end up being a more powerful linux box than the phone. It's probably a simple enough thing to make with a beagleboard. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
Gothnet wrote: Peter Nijs wrote: I'm almost sure someone suggested hooking up an external screen to it. That's technically not possible Isn't it? You can get external USB gfx cards these days. Whether FR has the power to drive one, or if there are FOSS drivers, I have no idea. No problem. The dock may contain a powered usb hub - so no power problem. An external screen can be a serial terminal, and usb-to-serial converters certainly exists. Linux always had drivers for serial terminals, these days also the usb-to-serial converters. For something more modern, use X over the network. (usb network or wifi) The usb cable to the pc seems to do everything: It connects the phone to: * the pc keyboard (use ssh software) * the pc screen (ssh tunneling X) * the pc mouse (ssh tunneling X) * network connection, whatever network(s) the pc is accessing * I have no camera, but it can be done using SANE. Seems the cradle is the only missing component here, but phone cradles aren't exactly new either. I guess it is possible to overturn that patent, if anyone has a hobby of suing microsoft... Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
Seems the cradle is the only missing component here Except the patent states that it doesn't have to include a cradle and, in fact, that a cable may be considered a feature. Well done Microsoft, you're trying to patent USB host mode on a phone... Joseph 2009/2/3 Helge Hafting helge.haft...@hist.no: Gothnet wrote: Peter Nijs wrote: I'm almost sure someone suggested hooking up an external screen to it. That's technically not possible Isn't it? You can get external USB gfx cards these days. Whether FR has the power to drive one, or if there are FOSS drivers, I have no idea. No problem. The dock may contain a powered usb hub - so no power problem. An external screen can be a serial terminal, and usb-to-serial converters certainly exists. Linux always had drivers for serial terminals, these days also the usb-to-serial converters. For something more modern, use X over the network. (usb network or wifi) The usb cable to the pc seems to do everything: It connects the phone to: * the pc keyboard (use ssh software) * the pc screen (ssh tunneling X) * the pc mouse (ssh tunneling X) * network connection, whatever network(s) the pc is accessing * I have no camera, but it can be done using SANE. Seems the cradle is the only missing component here, but phone cradles aren't exactly new either. I guess it is possible to overturn that patent, if anyone has a hobby of suing microsoft... Helge Hafting ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
2009/2/3 Helge Hafting helge.haft...@hist.no: I guess it is possible to overturn that patent, if anyone has a hobby of suing microsoft... Not exactly, but close: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neelie_Kroes ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 09:13:50 -0500 Jon 'maddog' Hall mad...@li.org said: Incredible. If I was the person that submitted this patent application, I would have done it under a false name, simply because I would have been ashamed. A great example of Patent System abuse. bah - it will be a real name. he want is patent filing bonus. they will pay him a nice sum of cash for every patent awarded under his name for ms. the shame is bearable as it comes with a nice lump of green to fix it :) md -- Jon maddog Hall Executive Director Linux International(R) email: mad...@li.org 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association Board Member Emeritus: USENIX Association (2000-2006) (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other countries. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
2009/2/3 Peter Nijs pe...@familienijs.be: On Tuesday 03 February 2009 20:10:08 arne anka wrote: btw: there's one of these foss organisations doing exactly what we want -- looking for prior art and questioning patents. if anybody knows their address, drop 'em a note ... Do you mean this one? http://openinventionnetwork.com/ I think perhaps arne meant this one: http://linuxdefenders.org/ - although maybe they're related. I found the LD site via the OIN site. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
(http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WONR=2009012344A2KC=A2FT=Ddate=20090122DB=EPODOClocale=en_US) i didn't read it fully, but how does that differ from a simple hub or the common docking station well known to notebook users? and it what respect exactly is it not obvious? btw: there's one of these foss organisations doing exactly what we want -- looking for prior art and questioning patents. if anybody knows their address, drop 'em a note ... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: microsoft patent with idea's from this list
On Tuesday 03 February 2009 20:10:08 arne anka wrote: (http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WONR=20090123 44A2KC=A2FT=Ddate=20090122DB=EPODOClocale=en_US) i didn't read it fully, but how does that differ from a simple hub or the common docking station well known to notebook users? and it what respect exactly is it not obvious? btw: there's one of these foss organisations doing exactly what we want -- looking for prior art and questioning patents. if anybody knows their address, drop 'em a note ... Do you mean this one? http://openinventionnetwork.com/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
