Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
Hi Brian and Martin, and team, On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 02:27:06PM +, Martín Ferrari wrote: On 25/02/15 14:53, Brian Gupta wrote: [...] P.S. - I am little frustrated that it seems from the overall trend in the conversation, that the choices of those that choose to include meat in their diet, seem to be having their choices being classified as optional, vs. those that choose not to eat meat, having their choices being classified as a need. (food allergies aside). The option versus need is explained by the fact that a vegetarian will not be able to eat (at all) if there is meat mixed with the food, while a omnivore will still be able to enjoy the food (allergies aside) even if her/his habit of eating meat is not satisfied. Yes we should do our best to provide meat and meet people's expectations, and that's why we're having this whole discussion. But if we fail for one or other meal it is (usually) not a big deal. Just chiming in to say that I agree to all you said here. I am also a bit frustrated about claims that vegetarian is not a restriction, that it should be the default, o that we are eating too much meat. It is perfectly fine for individuals to make their own dietary choices, but I don't like when that is somehow imposed upon the rest. I really didn't have the impression that vegetarianism is being imposed to the rest, but *just to be safe*, maybe we should avoid stating The baseline will be vegetarian and meat/fish shall be served as a side dish in the registration form. In this form we only need to make questions, how we are going to solve the issue is between us and the kitchen. The fact of having a baseline as vegetarian is pragmatic a choice. If you keep meat aside, everyone (again, allergies and stronger restrictions aside) will be able to enjoy the base, and meat will be provided for those who want. This is my personal strategy when I have to cook for a group of vegetarian and omnivores together. It is inclusive, cause people will have almost the same food, just the addition of meat for those who want. And we don't risk of not being able to provide basic food for anyone, since the base will be prepared for the totality of participants. Tassia. ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
also sprach Brian Gupta brian.gu...@brandorr.com [2015-02-25 15:53 +0100]: Since Debian is a culturally diverse organization, it would be impossible to cater this to individual omnivores, so I would argue, that we should aim for local norms. Yes, that is what we'll be doing: the youth hostel will be serving regionally-sourced food according to local norms. I'd also perhaps argue that the kitchen should keep some frozen hamburgers/hotdogs and veggie burgers/hotdogs (or local equivalents) on hand for late comers who have strong dietary preferences, but didn't follow the guidance. The bistro will be serving snacks until late at night, including omnivore and vegetarian/vegan options. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
also sprach Giacomo Catenazzi c...@debian.org [2015-02-25 09:52 +0100]: No. Having no default is not acceptable for registration people. It cause us to send many many mails to remember people to set something sensible. As others have pointed out: unless a choice is made, the registration cannot be completed. I think that alleviates your concern, doesn't it? also sprach Philip Hands p...@hands.com [2015-02-25 10:16 +0100]: In that case, how about making the default option: I will be happy eat whatever is provided (see catering notes). then if people fail to express themselves and subsequently try to complian they just get pointed at that setting and told that they should have chosen something else. Also an interesting proposal, which would make it: At DebConf15, we will be serving a variety of foods, sourced mostly from regional partners, and featuring local as well as non-local dishes. The baseline will be vegetarian and meat/fish shall be served as a side dish. Special requirements will be catered to without exception, if at all possible. Food preferences: * I will be happy to eat whatever is provided [default] * I am lacto-ovo vegetarian, don't provide meat/fish for me * I am strict vegetarian (vegan), don't provide any animal products for me * Other (please use field below to let us know) Additional notes and restrictions — please be as concrete as possible and avoid from abusing this field. If any questions arise, please contact the organisers: _ -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
El 25/02/15 a las 09:52, Giacomo Catenazzi escribió: On 25.02.2015 07:53, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Santiago Ruano Rincón santi...@debian.org [2015-02-24 23:41 +0100]: santiago what about not having a default about food? the diet field could be mandatory, with an empty option by default ... santiago a real *-tagged field I think this is the best suggestion so far. Form data with defaults are less useful than data from forms that force people to stop and think, so this should be a net gain. No. Having no default is not acceptable for registration people. It cause us to send many many mails to remember people to set something sensible. We ping them in IRC, we lost communications [timezones], we have bounced mails [so do we need to cancel entire registrations?], etc. [pentabarf had empty fields as default, so this is a real concern] Do you think you'd have that problem if the Diet is *really* mandatory? People wouldn't be allowed to register if they don't choose a non-empty option from the list. I highlight that I'm using Diet instead of Dietary restrictions or preferences/requirements. And sorry, I don't know nothing about summit. I don't know if this would be feasible now. Santiago ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
Giacomo Catenazzi c...@debian.org writes: On 25.02.2015 07:53, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Santiago Ruano Rincón santi...@debian.org [2015-02-24 23:41 +0100]: santiago what about not having a default about food? the diet field could be mandatory, with an empty option by default ... santiago a real *-tagged field I think this is the best suggestion so far. Form data with defaults are less useful than data from forms that force people to stop and think, so this should be a net gain. No. Having no default is not acceptable for registration people. It cause us to send many many mails to remember people to set something sensible. We ping them in IRC, we lost communications [timezones], we have bounced mails [so do we need to cancel entire registrations?], etc. [pentabarf had empty fields as default, so this is a real concern] So let's us [registration] to think that the fields are properly filled, and worrying about all other registration stuffs. [/me cannot ignore a wrong form] In that case, how about making the default option: I will be happy eat whatever is provided (see catering notes). then if people fail to express themselves and subsequently try to complian they just get pointed at that setting and told that they should have chosen something else. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On 25.02.2015 07:53, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Santiago Ruano Rincón santi...@debian.org [2015-02-24 23:41 +0100]: santiago what about not having a default about food? the diet field could be mandatory, with an empty option by default ... santiago a real *-tagged field I think this is the best suggestion so far. Form data with defaults are less useful than data from forms that force people to stop and think, so this should be a net gain. No. Having no default is not acceptable for registration people. It cause us to send many many mails to remember people to set something sensible. We ping them in IRC, we lost communications [timezones], we have bounced mails [so do we need to cancel entire registrations?], etc. [pentabarf had empty fields as default, so this is a real concern] So let's us [registration] to think that the fields are properly filled, and worrying about all other registration stuffs. [/me cannot ignore a wrong form] ciao cate If this could be agreed upon, then maybe calling the carnivore option I eat meat/fish when available next to the other choices, and a free-form text field for restrictions will solve the issue? ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On Tue 2015-02-24 15:06:57 -0500, Margarita Manterola wrote: I agree with what has already been posted that None is a very bad idea that it doesn't really convey the meaning. It should be explicit, i.e. Ovo-lacto vegetarian, no None or similar in the string. Please, whatever is decided, let's not use None for any option. I'm glad we all seem to agree that None really does mean None -- if you have no dietary restrictions, then it does not mean I must have meat any more than I must not have meat. Also, taking into account the data from previous years, I strongly believe that the default should be I like to eat meat and fish. So, I propose: Food preferences: * I like to eat meat and fish (default option) * Ovo-lacto vegetarian * No animal products for me (vegan, strict vegetarian) * Other (specific restrictions - please contact organizers) This has been the traditional default choices, just now slightly more spelled out (replace None with the interpretation I like to eat meat and fish). But this is not actually what everyone means when they say none, certainly not at every meal, as people have mentioned above. The concern that i raised at the start of this discussion is that this array of answers basically encourages people to appear to demand meat and fish, even if they don't particularly want or desire meat or fish at every meal. This happens at lots of conferences. It leads to more meat consumption than is warranted by the question because of the framing. I would still like us to try to not structurally encourage excess meat consumption, and to encourage our caterers to prepare delicious meatless food sometimes for those who have no dietary restrictions. How about: * I sometimes eat meat and fish (default option) * Ovo-lacto vegetarian * No animal products for me (vegan, strict vegetarian) * Other (specific restrictions - please describe below) Or if you really think that people want an explicit way to be able to make sure they don't miss a meal without meat or fish, then let's actually be explicit about it and bring None back with maybe a little more clarity: A) I like to eat meat or fish at every meal B) I sometimes eat meat and fish C) Ovo-lacto vegetarian D) No animal products for me (vegan, strict vegetarian) E) Other (specific restrictions - please describe below) But there's no way i know of to determine the correct default option from past data alone because we've never asked people to split out A from B before. I want to be clear that all of this work has to do with planning the proportions of types of baseline meals; while i want to see the conference reduce unwanted meat consumption as a whole, i do still want to meet the dietary needs of people who have specific constraints for whatever reason (ketonic diets, gluten-free, etc). If anyone has a dietary restriction that means they cannot eat vegetarian food (or any other kind of food), i hope they will identify themselves to the organizers and the caterers so that they do not go hungry on days when the default options tend in that direction. Thanks to everyone for this discussion, --dkg ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
also sprach Daniel Kahn Gillmor d...@fifthhorseman.net [2015-02-24 22:36 +0100]: The concern that i raised at the start of this discussion is that this array of answers basically encourages people to appear to demand meat and fish, even if they don't particularly want or desire meat or fish at every meal. This happens at lots of conferences. It leads to more meat consumption than is warranted by the question because of the framing. The I like meat phrasing is mine and I tried to make it convey yeah, I like it, but I don't require it. Put differently, I thought this option would actually reserve us as organisers the right to serve no meat/fish on some nights, and this is still how I see it, and this is something I'd actually want to do, iff the youth hostel is willing to go along and ensure a tasty non-meat meal. Obviously there are people who need special care, and we'll cater to those, no expecption. And anyone who claims into my face that can't eat anything but meat every day, I will personally buy burgers three times a day if they agree to consume them bound to a chair at a table I get to populate. * Other (specific restrictions - please describe below) As long as additional restrictions can be specified without selecting other. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
also sprach Anthony Towns a...@erisian.com.au [2015-02-23 03:25 +0100]: given there's a meat+fish option, I'd probably read Food preferences: None as Don't give me any food, I'll go elsewhere; or maybe I'll eat anything and expect it to be the same as the same as the meat+fish option. If it really means lacto-ovo vegetarian probably better to be a bit more explicit. Noted. So instead of none, maybe default (lacto-ovo vegetarian)? But I think we should probably also add a sentence or two into the form to explain that this year is slightly different than the past. (If the baseline is appropriately nutritious vegetarian meals, it might be reasonable to just tell people that -- ie, not have a meat+fish option at all -- and suggest that they go to a restaurant or foodtruck etc if they want a steak or a burger? Assuming there are such things somewhere nearby, anyway. For DC15, this is unfortunately not reasonable as outside places aren't that close and we'd rather avoid the venue clearing out for meal times. Also, I don't think the venue is quite ready for that yet. They are far ahead of German standards, but not quite ready yet to go completely vegetarian. Not sure we'd want that either, since part of DebConf is sampling local culture and food, and German food is traditionally quite meat-y. Isn't it usual to have a free-form text field for this? Makes it a bit easier, and a bit less risk of requirements getting lost in email shuffle. (Additional dietary restrictions: perhaps, after choosing meat/veg/vegan as a baseline) I think this is a good idea. Thanks. Based on someone's experience at LCA this year, might be worth putting in a don't add jokes in this field, thanks! to save people from themselves: http://lists.lca2015.linux.org.au/pipermail/chat/2015-January/000620.html Hehe. Never happened to me, and I've been writing needs craft beer with every meal intake into my LCA form every single time I went ;) -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
Hi I'm just reading this to pick up for DC16... It may be helpful to think, what do you REALLY want to know, and could you ask that? How about a tick box, would you mind/agree to eat vegetarian meals (no meat/fish - you choose the words here) for the official/provided conference meals? If not, what would you require (e.g. 2 meat meals a week...)? Perhaps do this as a survey to past attendees? Might be messy, but will give a representative feedback, no? Perhaps we just need to move away from the archaic categorisation altogether. So instead of forcing people into boxes, perhaps frame the tick boxes and supportive open fields to what it is you really want to know? hope this helps, still new to this :) Bernelle Verster (indiebio) Cape Town, South Africa (DC16) On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 12:52 PM, martin f krafft madd...@debconf.org wrote: also sprach Anthony Towns a...@erisian.com.au [2015-02-23 03:25 +0100]: given there's a meat+fish option, I'd probably read Food preferences: None as Don't give me any food, I'll go elsewhere; or maybe I'll eat anything and expect it to be the same as the same as the meat+fish option. If it really means lacto-ovo vegetarian probably better to be a bit more explicit. Noted. So instead of none, maybe default (lacto-ovo vegetarian)? But I think we should probably also add a sentence or two into the form to explain that this year is slightly different than the past. (If the baseline is appropriately nutritious vegetarian meals, it might be reasonable to just tell people that -- ie, not have a meat+fish option at all -- and suggest that they go to a restaurant or foodtruck etc if they want a steak or a burger? Assuming there are such things somewhere nearby, anyway. For DC15, this is unfortunately not reasonable as outside places aren't that close and we'd rather avoid the venue clearing out for meal times. Also, I don't think the venue is quite ready for that yet. They are far ahead of German standards, but not quite ready yet to go completely vegetarian. Not sure we'd want that either, since part of DebConf is sampling local culture and food, and German food is traditionally quite meat-y. Isn't it usual to have a free-form text field for this? Makes it a bit easier, and a bit less risk of requirements getting lost in email shuffle. (Additional dietary restrictions: perhaps, after choosing meat/veg/vegan as a baseline) I think this is a good idea. Thanks. Based on someone's experience at LCA this year, might be worth putting in a don't add jokes in this field, thanks! to save people from themselves: http://lists.lca2015.linux.org.au/pipermail/chat/2015-January/000620.html Hehe. Never happened to me, and I've been writing needs craft beer with every meal intake into my LCA form every single time I went ;) -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
also sprach Patty Langasek harmo...@dodds.net [2015-02-22 23:39 +0100]: I have ... difficult ... food allergies that I contend with, and I find that vegetarian dishes by and large conflict with my restricted diet consistently (onions, mushrooms and garbanzo beans). Dear Patty, it is my impression that the youth hostel will be able to cater to that, if they know in advance. Hence, my suggestion would be to let us known upon registration so that we can pass on the information. Hope this helps, -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Richard Hartmann richih.mailingl...@gmail.com wrote: * other: text field Make that allergies. We do want to accommodate Patty. We do not want to accommodate the cookie monster or LCA's bacon man. Richard ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 4:11 PM, martin f krafft madd...@debconf.org wrote: Food preferences: None I like to eat meat and fish No animal products for me (vegan, strict vegetarian) Other / allergies (contact organisers) After some more thought, I think this phrasing would only lead to confusion, hence discussions, hence time sinks. What about: Dietary restrictions: * none * vegan * other: text field If you ask people how often, precisely, they want meat, they start to bikeshed. If you give give them a bucket of really good pasta, they will not even think about it while happlily gorging themselves on His noodly appendages. Richard PS: The above leaves out vegetarian as that's a minefield of what they consider vegetarian or not and you end up with multi-dimensional tables. Which you then fold back into vegan as everything else does not scale. ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On 21.02.2015 16:11, martin f krafft wrote: At the same time, I think we could try to avoid speaking about vegetarians and vegans as restricted, which has a bit of a negative connotation, or so I've been told numerous times now. Why? It is a restriction of food choice. All of us have food restrictions. What about requirement? (considering that we don't assume for vegetarian restriction with vegetarian choice, but no meat and fish). Using preference, especially on DC15 context (carnivores don't have guarantee of meat), is IMHO very wrong: it has no guarantee of vegetarian/vegan food. We should distinguish requirements from implementation. How about making the choices be: Food preferences: None I like to eat meat and fish No animal products for me (vegan, strict vegetarian) Other / allergies (contact organisers) I don't think it is good. As vegetarian, reading such field+choices, what I should choose? It is not self-explanatory, it is biased on people who has more information (so will make people unhappy, so also Front Desk unhappy). What does I like to eat meat and fish mean? Meat of fish every meal? Every day? So it don't solve the initial problem of partial vegetarian, which are then feed with too much meat. Adding text doesn't help [told with my registration hat. For bursaries we make an exception: it is about money, and if people don't care about reading text,...] We should have clear and self-explanatory question, and original question doesn't limit implementation of vegetarian (and stricter) on most meals for everybody. IMHO we should maintain actual dietary requirement, and later (April/May), we should send all people a personalized mail with food and accommodation details (and implementing additional questions). [including room preferences, roommates, etc.]. There we will also describe our food plan, and some preferences to help to estimate better the implementation of the plan. [Personally I'm surprised on how good the less meat proposal is accepted, so possibly we could make everybody happy by having at end very few exceptions] Note: meat every day could be implemented as optional bacon and eggs at breakfast: easy to adapt, cheap, and low quantity of meat. ciao cate ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 07:06:18AM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: also sprach Richard Hartmann richih.mailingl...@gmail.com [2015-02-21 22:38 +0100]: None That means whatever the YH wants to cook, meat or not? This is why I think we should add prose and explain that the baseline by the youth hostel will be vegetarian. I like to eat meat and fish That means every day? Or is that a control variable for the above? No. We reserve the right not to serve meat/fish on all days, I'd say. Remembering back to the bid, it seems that the youth hostel was somewhat isolated from other places. Does this mean that food options are going to be limited to the youth hostel then (similar to DC13), or will we be able to find food options within easy/quick walking distance of the hostel so we'd make it back in time for sessions? -- -- Patty Langasek harmo...@dodds.net | harmo...@debian.org -- At times, you may end up far away from home; you may not be sure of where you belong anymore. But home is always there... because home is not a place. It's wherever your passion takes you. --- J. Michael Straczynski ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 09:06:54PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote: While I think there are some (sport club) restaurants nearby, I would not count on them being open, especially not during the day. So: yes, it's mostly the youth hostel, which is why we've been working hard with them to ensure a high-quality offering. We do expect people to venture into town at night (2+km walk, there's also a bus every 10–20 minutes), but we are pretty confident that this won't be a necessity for people. I'm actually very hesitant to bring this up, because I *really* don't want to go through the same fight I went through last year with the same people over this. I have ... difficult ... food allergies that I contend with, and I find that vegetarian dishes by and large conflict with my restricted diet consistently (onions, mushrooms and garbanzo beans). If vegetarian dishes are all that will be offered for an entire day at a time, I am a person that needing to wander away from the venue *will* be a necessity. If I'm in a minority (as it appears from this discussion and previous discussions), do I understand correctly that I'll need to make my own arrangements, then? -- -- Patty Langasek harmo...@dodds.net | harmo...@debian.org -- At times, you may end up far away from home; you may not be sure of where you belong anymore. But home is always there... because home is not a place. It's wherever your passion takes you. --- J. Michael Straczynski ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
also sprach Patty Langasek harmo...@dodds.net [2015-02-22 19:44 +0100]: Remembering back to the bid, it seems that the youth hostel was somewhat isolated from other places. Does this mean that food options are going to be limited to the youth hostel then (similar to DC13), or will we be able to find food options within easy/quick walking distance of the hostel so we'd make it back in time for sessions? While I think there are some (sport club) restaurants nearby, I would not count on them being open, especially not during the day. So: yes, it's mostly the youth hostel, which is why we've been working hard with them to ensure a high-quality offering. We do expect people to venture into town at night (2+km walk, there's also a bus every 10–20 minutes), but we are pretty confident that this won't be a necessity for people. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On 22 February 2015 at 01:11, martin f krafft madd...@debconf.org wrote: How about making the choices be: Food preferences: None I like to eat meat and fish No animal products for me (vegan, strict vegetarian) Other / allergies (contact organisers) FWIW, given there's a meat+fish option, I'd probably read Food preferences: None as Don't give me any food, I'll go elsewhere; or maybe I'll eat anything and expect it to be the same as the same as the meat+fish option. If it really means lacto-ovo vegetarian probably better to be a bit more explicit. (If the baseline is appropriately nutritious vegetarian meals, it might be reasonable to just tell people that -- ie, not have a meat+fish option at all -- and suggest that they go to a restaurant or foodtruck etc if they want a steak or a burger? Assuming there are such things somewhere nearby, anyway. Maybe soylent should be an option...) This still means that people with true restrictions, such as allergies, have to contact the organisers, but we can't reasonably ask for all combinations in the form anyway (e.g. gluten-free vegan and lactose-intolerant meat-eater…). Isn't it usual to have a free-form text field for this? Makes it a bit easier, and a bit less risk of requirements getting lost in email shuffle. (Additional dietary restrictions: perhaps, after choosing meat/veg/vegan as a baseline) Based on someone's experience at LCA this year, might be worth putting in a don't add jokes in this field, thanks! to save people from themselves: http://lists.lca2015.linux.org.au/pipermail/chat/2015-January/000620.html Cheers, aj ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
also sprach Richard Hartmann richih.mailingl...@gmail.com [2015-02-21 22:38 +0100]: None That means whatever the YH wants to cook, meat or not? This is why I think we should add prose and explain that the baseline by the youth hostel will be vegetarian. I like to eat meat and fish That means every day? Or is that a control variable for the above? No. We reserve the right not to serve meat/fish on all days, I'd say. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
also sprach martin f krafft madd...@debconf.org [2015-02-07 13:44 +0100]: I think we need to address it as proposed by Gaudenz: we should really discuss the issues with the cooks and find with them a good solution, possibly starting with Micah solution. We are going to meet with them this week to discuss the strategy. Here's a long-overdue report from what happened in HD. Basically, maxy, marga and myself took all the input from this discussion and tried to figure out how to best frame this to the venue, i.e. how to convince them to serve us a (lacto-ovo) vegetarian baseline with options for vegans and meat/fish-eaters, etc., as Micah suggested. To our surprise and joy, we were met with open arms and the venue made it clear that they are heading this way anyway, and would be all too delighted to work with us on this. In this context, I would like to propose to change the summit registration form to match what the venue will offer (and also include some text in the registration page, which I can do…). At the same time, I think we could try to avoid speaking about vegetarians and vegans as restricted, which has a bit of a negative connotation, or so I've been told numerous times now. How about making the choices be: Food preferences: None I like to eat meat and fish No animal products for me (vegan, strict vegetarian) Other / allergies (contact organisers) This still means that people with true restrictions, such as allergies, have to contact the organisers, but we can't reasonably ask for all combinations in the form anyway (e.g. gluten-free vegan and lactose-intolerant meat-eater…). There's also the question about what to make the default option, and I think we' agree that it'll be one of the first two: - Having the default be none matches the way the youth hostel looks at it, and some will say that that's a sane and a most-compatible default. - Having the default be I like meat means that, based on previous numbers, less people have to change away from the default, which also works in favour of those who don't read instructions. Anyway, I would appreciate if someone else took this on and drove it to a decision. Thanks, -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 4:11 PM, martin f krafft madd...@debconf.org wrote: None That means whatever the YH wants to cook, meat or not? I like to eat meat and fish That means every day? Or is that a control variable for the above? Richard ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On 07 Feb 2015, at 05:36, Tassia Camoes Araujo tas...@acaia.ca wrote: On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 01:13:00PM -0500, micah anderson wrote: So, yes, I think the framing problem is important here, but the real problem is that the negotiations with food providers should be approached from a different perspective. Asking them to provide gluten friendly, ovo-lacto vegetarian food (and this does need to be clarified, because many countries think that chicken and/or fish is vegetarian) as the primary base, enough to feed *everyone*, with a meat/fish option to add to it if you prefer, is going to fix the fundamental problem. Could anyone point a flaw to Micah's perspective? I can't find a better way to adress this problem. Simple and inclusive. I think it could works for most of the meals. Note. not really an add-on, but a partial substitute (we don’t want to overfeed carnivores / not giving enough proteins to the veg*). In any way, I think we need to address it as proposed by Gaudenz: we should really discuss the issues with the cooks and find with them a good solution, possibly starting with Micah solution. Note: I think venue or us should provide some snacks. (maybe also hotdogs, curry wurst, etc., like we had in DC13). This could provide meat when we don’t provide it (at extra cost) and BTW it don’t create food/meat waste. BTW I think it is part of DebConf also to provide local taste. It would be pity to remain two weeks in HD and not having some typical German food. So possibly on some meals (with meat (speak) used deeply in preparation) we should use classical methods. So, in the next meeting we should start discussing it, and then negotiate with venue. ciao cate ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
also sprach Giacomo Catenazzi c...@cateee.net [2015-02-07 10:28 +0100]: I think we need to address it as proposed by Gaudenz: we should really discuss the issues with the cooks and find with them a good solution, possibly starting with Micah solution. We are going to meet with them this week to discuss the strategy. Note: I think venue or us should provide some snacks. (maybe also hotdogs, curry wurst, etc., like we had in DC13). This could provide meat when we don’t provide it (at extra cost) and BTW it don’t create food/meat waste. There will be a bistro serving drinks and snacks, open until late. I assume it'll be very similar to the bar at DC13, except not operated by us (though we get to influence the selection). BTW I think it is part of DebConf also to provide local taste. It would be pity to remain two weeks in HD and not having some typical German food. I think that should be left to trips into town to restaurants with traditional menus. Cooking up specialities as you suggest might be possible at the venue, but it'd probably be far less authentic. So, in the next meeting we should start discussing it, and then negotiate with venue. No matter how much and how long we discuss, we'll be bound by what the venue is able to offer, and while they're flexible, they aren't waiting for us to tell them what to do. So let's first find out what they can and are willing to do, especially given the input of this discussion. And then we see what's left to discuss, ok? -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@debconf.org @martinkrafft : :' : DebConf orga team `. `'` `- DebConf15: Heidelberg, Germany: http://debconf15.debconf.org DebConf16: Cape Town or Montreal? https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16 digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/sig-policy/999bbcc4/current) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 01:13:00PM -0500, micah anderson wrote: So, yes, I think the framing problem is important here, but the real problem is that the negotiations with food providers should be approached from a different perspective. Asking them to provide gluten friendly, ovo-lacto vegetarian food (and this does need to be clarified, because many countries think that chicken and/or fish is vegetarian) as the primary base, enough to feed *everyone*, with a meat/fish option to add to it if you prefer, is going to fix the fundamental problem. Could anyone point a flaw to Micah's perspective? I can't find a better way to adress this problem. Simple and inclusive. Tassia. ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
Martín Ferrari tin...@tincho.org writes: On 05/02/15 18:49, Gunnar Wolf wrote: I think this is right(er), although still pointless IMO. I do not believe (most) people expect to eat meat at every meal. I think it would be easier to agree with our caterer to provide meat for approximately half of the days. I don't think it'd be seen as too little, and I think you would approve of the idea of setting a hard-maximum on served meat! :) As I said before, the problem is not the form, but the caterers just putting N vegetarian and M meat-including dishes, instead of offering a bit more choice. Instead of trying to have no-meat days, the caterer could just have some extra vegetarian on offer, and let people choose, while having a reserve for the people who only eat vegetarian. I think this is the right approach to the problem Daniel (dkg) was worried about in his reply. Finding the right proportion of vegetarian food will be an iterative process. I suggest to start with a proportion of vegetarian which seems like a bit too much to make sure we don't have a shortage for those that only eat vegetarian food and as a safety precaution keep some reserve in case we still run out. If there is not enough meat for everyone that would like to have some, that's not a big problem as I doubt that they can't eat the vegetarian option. We can then order a bit more meat the next time meat is on the menu. This assumes that we have some flexibility in this until about the day before. That's more or less how we approached this during DC13 and there the kitchen crew even to some degree self adjusted this. To most important thing in my experience is to be in close relation to the venue (including the kitchen crew) to be able to adapt and find solutions during the event. During DC13 we had a daily coordination meeting with them to discuss these things. This is much more important than insisting on exact numbers. Gaudenz signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On Fri 2015-02-06 04:21:15 -0500, Gaudenz Steinlin wrote: I think this is the right approach to the problem Daniel (dkg) was worried about in his reply. Finding the right proportion of vegetarian food will be an iterative process. I suggest to start with a proportion of vegetarian which seems like a bit too much to make sure we don't have a shortage for those that only eat vegetarian food and as a safety precaution keep some reserve in case we still run out. Iterative balancing sounds like a sensible approach to me, though i'm unclear on what keep some reserve means -- does it mean we deny vegetarian food to people who want to eat it? If so, we're back in the meat-overconsumption dynamic i raised in the first place (though i appreciate that it would be reduced by deliberately pushing the proportion of veg:non-veg higher than it has traditionally been). Without data, how do we choose what proportion should we start with? How do we know what is a bit too much? One approach would be to start with all-vegetarian and see how many complaints there are from those who wanted meat but didn't get it. Or we could ask people to pre-complain by giving them a chance to do so during online registration. This is what drove my initial suggestion of including something in the dropdown form. I'm open to other suggestions about how we set the starting point for the iterative balancing, though. That's more or less how we approached this during DC13 and there the kitchen crew even to some degree self adjusted this. To most important thing in my experience is to be in close relation to the venue (including the kitchen crew) to be able to adapt and find solutions during the event. During DC13 we had a daily coordination meeting with them to discuss these things. This is much more important than insisting on exact numbers. I agree that flexibility and a healthy feedback loop during the event is critical. Many thanks to the people who took part in this work! All the best, --dkg ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
[Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On 02/05/2015 02:29 AM, Martín Ferrari wrote: On 04/02/15 22:59, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: Could frame this differently? The normal framing (above) often ends up with an assumption that everyone must eat meat, with only a limited set-aside for vegetarians. This results in overconsumption of meat: it forces normal people to eat meat in order to avoid running out of vegetarian dishes for the vegetarians. While I am in the group that sometimes wished they could eat the vegetarian dish, because it looked tastier, or because they wanted to skip meat one day, I really don't agree with your proposal. No dietary restrictions means what it means, not that meat is mandatory. Lacto-ovo-vegetarian is by definition a dietary restriction, no matter how you frame it. OTOH we could change the question. IIRC there was some discussion to offer less meat. I don't think we should offer mandatory meat/fish every lunch/dinner. But if somebody think that eating meat/fish every meal is a MUST, we could add must eat meat/fish at every meal as restriction. This could be added later, when we have more information, and in any case not the default. I'm also in favour to book more vegetarian menus, and offer meat only to the first 60-80% of carnivore people (as first served basis), which could help me, tincho and many others to have a mixed diet. ciao cate ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On Thu 2015-02-05 03:13:46 -0500, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote: On 02/05/2015 02:29 AM, Martín Ferrari wrote: While I am in the group that sometimes wished they could eat the vegetarian dish, because it looked tastier, or because they wanted to skip meat one day, I really don't agree with your proposal. Can you think of a better way to frame it so that we can avoid the every-meal-has-meat baseline assumption that the current framing implies? No dietary restrictions means what it means, not that meat is mandatory. Lacto-ovo-vegetarian is by definition a dietary restriction, no matter how you frame it. Right, what i was proposing was the people who have no dietary restrictions should be OK with getting a meal that is (as a baseline) lacto-ovo vegetarian; those who have a restriction that requires them to eat meat could identify themselves so that they could be sure to have meat. The people who are providing us with food will need guidance about what to prepare in any case; being clear to them about the needs and desires of the group will help them to help feed us sensibly. IIRC there was some discussion to offer less meat. I don't think we should offer mandatory meat/fish every lunch/dinner. But if somebody think that eating meat/fish every meal is a MUST, we could add must eat meat/fish at every meal as restriction. This could be added later, when we have more information, and in any case not the default. Sure, adding must eat meat/fish at every meal to the current options would be a fine step to take. And perhaps we could use balance of numbers between must eat meat/fish at every meal and vegetarian to give the catering staff a suggestion of how to plan the dishes for the no dietary restrictions people. e.g. if 10 people say must eat meat/fish at every meal and 5 people register vegetarian of some sort, then the main course (assuming the people supplying food only want to prepare one main dish for those who did not specify a dietary restriction) will be meat two times out of three instead of three times out of three. Or, since two dishes are being prepared for every meal anyway (meat and veg), the numbers of each dish prepared in total could be based on that ratio, instead of assuming that the no dietary restrictions folks must have meat. That would help to address the large-group meat-overconsumption dynamic i'm raising. I'm also in favour to book more vegetarian menus, and offer meat only to the first 60-80% of carnivore people (as first served basis), which could help me, tincho and many others to have a mixed diet. Hm, i think i would say it as offer vegetarian meals to the first 20%-40% of omnivores (as a first-served basis), since that's what's usually missing from these arrangements. I hope that we can actually offer meat to 100% of the strict carnivores in attendance, or else they'll be very hungry. ;) And yes, i think this makes sense (though i'm not sure how you come up with the right ratio; maybe based on the expressed preferences, as suggested above). So i'm amending my earlier proposal to this: Dietary restrictions: - Not applicable - No dietary restrictions Default - Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian (dairy and eggs OK) - Vegan (strict vegetarian) - Meat required at every meal - Other (contact registrat...@debconf.org ASAP) Is that OK with people? Thanks for engaging constructively with this! All the best, --dkg signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
Daniel Kahn Gillmor d...@fifthhorseman.net writes: On Thu 2015-02-05 03:13:46 -0500, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote: On 02/05/2015 02:29 AM, Martín Ferrari wrote: While I am in the group that sometimes wished they could eat the vegetarian dish, because it looked tastier, or because they wanted to skip meat one day, I really don't agree with your proposal. Can you think of a better way to frame it so that we can avoid the every-meal-has-meat baseline assumption that the current framing implies? I fail to see why you think that the current proposed wording of no dietary restrictions implies that every meal will have meat. I don't see anything in this option that guarantees you meat on every meal or even on every day. I also don't think we have to offer this at all. I at least never heared of a serious diet which requires someone to eat meat every day. We also don't offer cheese or apples or whatever every day as an option. If there are special needs, then there is always the option to contact the organizers. No dietary restrictions means what it means, not that meat is mandatory. Lacto-ovo-vegetarian is by definition a dietary restriction, no matter how you frame it. Right, what i was proposing was the people who have no dietary restrictions should be OK with getting a meal that is (as a baseline) lacto-ovo vegetarian; those who have a restriction that requires them to eat meat could identify themselves so that they could be sure to have meat. The people who are providing us with food will need guidance about what to prepare in any case; being clear to them about the needs and desires of the group will help them to help feed us sensibly. IIRC there was some discussion to offer less meat. I don't think we should offer mandatory meat/fish every lunch/dinner. But if somebody think that eating meat/fish every meal is a MUST, we could add must eat meat/fish at every meal as restriction. This could be added later, when we have more information, and in any case not the default. Sure, adding must eat meat/fish at every meal to the current options would be a fine step to take. I would strongly oppose to add such an option. This request just seems insane to me. The option no restrictions should just include as much meat the organiziers and the caterer thinks is reasonable. I'm all in favor of not offering meat on every meal and for ordering more vegetarian meals than the minimum number required to feed those that indicated that they only eat vegetarian (or vegan) food. Gaudenz signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
Daniel Kahn Gillmor dijo [Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 11:25:37AM -0500]: While I am in the group that sometimes wished they could eat the vegetarian dish, because it looked tastier, or because they wanted to skip meat one day, I really don't agree with your proposal. Can you think of a better way to frame it so that we can avoid the every-meal-has-meat baseline assumption that the current framing implies? That is not implied and has (almost) never been the case. Eating meat every day twice a day would most likely be considered too much for almost everybody. But OTOH defaulting to no meat would also be considered excessive for many people. What we should try to cater to is having a reasonably healthy and varied menu. Being it in Germany, I'm sure I am not alone to expect some sausages and breaded meats. Not every day, not at every meal, but surely so. I seriously doubt we have to offer an I always need M34T option. But (and bear in mind I was a vegetarian for 20 years) truth is default means meat is OK. Right, what i was proposing was the people who have no dietary restrictions should be OK with getting a meal that is (as a baseline) lacto-ovo vegetarian; those who have a restriction that requires them to eat meat could identify themselves so that they could be sure to have meat. The people who are providing us with food will need guidance about what to prepare in any case; being clear to them about the needs and desires of the group will help them to help feed us sensibly. When I travel, I always want to get a taste of the way locals eat — Not necessarily fancy cuisine, just normal food. I would even believe that, at least for the impression an unknowing outsider has about Germany, that many people would end up registering for always meat, to get something closer to what they expect. Defaulting to ovo-lacto might then mean increased meat consumption! (Of course, no way to test my hypothesis without involving real people) I'm also in favour to book more vegetarian menus, and offer meat only to the first 60-80% of carnivore people (as first served basis), which could help me, tincho and many others to have a mixed diet. Hm, i think i would say it as offer vegetarian meals to the first 20%-40% of omnivores (as a first-served basis), since that's what's usually missing from these arrangements. I hope that we can actually offer meat to 100% of the strict carnivores in attendance, or else they'll be very hungry. ;) And yes, i think this makes sense (though i'm not sure how you come up with the right ratio; maybe based on the expressed preferences, as suggested above). So i'm amending my earlier proposal to this: Dietary restrictions: - Not applicable - No dietary restrictions Default - Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian (dairy and eggs OK) - Vegan (strict vegetarian) - Meat required at every meal - Other (contact registrat...@debconf.org ASAP) Is that OK with people? Thanks for engaging constructively with this! I think this is right(er), although still pointless IMO. I do not believe (most) people expect to eat meat at every meal. I think it would be easier to agree with our caterer to provide meat for approximately half of the days. I don't think it'd be seen as too little, and I think you would approve of the idea of setting a hard-maximum on served meat! :) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 07:27:30PM +0100, Laura Arjona Reina wrote: Hi everybody El 05/02/15 a las 17:25, Daniel Kahn Gillmor escribió: I would change the perspective: tell cooks the things they can add to the menu. What about this proposal? Diet: - Not applicable - Vegan (strict vegetarian) - Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian (dairy and eggs OK) default - Omnivore (dairy, eggs, meat or fish OK) - Other (contact registrat...@debconf.org ASAP) If we think that people should be able to ask for meat/fish in every meal (my take is no, but you know better DebConf demographics), I would add an option after Omnivore: - Carnivore (Omnivore, with meat or fish in every meal) votes++ I'm an omnivore who eats a lot of vegetables with every meal and prefers no meat several days most weeks. I enjoy cooking with and eating tofu several days most weeks. I would find this framing of the options quite acceptable and actually nice. Often meal options for the traditional default end up with primarily meat + starch with vegetables as an after thought. -edrz ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
Hi everybody El 05/02/15 a las 17:25, Daniel Kahn Gillmor escribió: So i'm amending my earlier proposal to this: Dietary restrictions: - Not applicable - No dietary restrictions Default - Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian (dairy and eggs OK) - Vegan (strict vegetarian) - Meat required at every meal - Other (contact registrat...@debconf.org ASAP) Is that OK with people? I would change the perspective: tell cooks the things they can add to the menu. What about this proposal? Diet: - Not applicable - Vegan (strict vegetarian) - Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian (dairy and eggs OK) default - Omnivore (dairy, eggs, meat or fish OK) - Other (contact registrat...@debconf.org ASAP) If we think that people should be able to ask for meat/fish in every meal (my take is no, but you know better DebConf demographics), I would add an option after Omnivore: - Carnivore (Omnivore, with meat or fish in every meal) But I wouldn't change the default, sticking in Lacto-ovo, which is cheaper, healthy and not too restrictive for the cooks, and anyway, everybody can drop-down and change to their preferred option. HTH Laura Arjona Thanks for engaging constructively with this! All the best, --dkg ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team -- Laura Arjona https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
Daniel Kahn Gillmor d...@fifthhorseman.net writes: On Thu 2015-02-05 03:13:46 -0500, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote: On 02/05/2015 02:29 AM, Martín Ferrari wrote: While I am in the group that sometimes wished they could eat the vegetarian dish, because it looked tastier, or because they wanted to skip meat one day, I really don't agree with your proposal. Can you think of a better way to frame it so that we can avoid the every-meal-has-meat baseline assumption that the current framing implies? I agree that the framing is a problem here. I also think that the *main* problem that this set of choices is here to solve is the problem of organizing food for Debconf. In my experience with doing this for Debconf in NYC, that meant identifying a place, or places, that could accommodate food for the number of people expected, for the time expected. For us, it was a series of meetings with different organizations that were potentially able to solve the problem, eventually filtering down to the ones that we felt confident would actually come through, at a reasonable price. Finally, signing a contract with them and paying some money up front. The negotiation process with those caterers involved talking to them about the numbers of people, which meals would be provided, time frame and money, it was also very important that we talk about what food would be available, and we based it on the answers to the registration questions. It was important to have an accurate number of *confirmed* attendees, and it was important to make sure the food provider to meet the food restrictions that were indicated in the choices. However, this is where we, and I think other Debconf organizers in the past, have made a fatal error. During the negotiations with the potential food providers, the organizers of Debconf should *not* go to them and say We have exactly 7 people who said they need vegetarian, can you provide that? This is what is done because of this selection registration question. Its a perfectly normal approach by hackers to do such a survey and then use the exact numbers to produce the correct results that will match that number. However, this isn't how things work in practice, I can give you a couple examples. In NYC, much to our distress, we were promised gluten-free options, but that was not delivered properly. This meant that a core video-team person was going hungry, and a core organizer was making special trips to the store to buy food to solve that problem. People were angry and stressed, and we didn't have time to do this, but feeding people is important, so it was done. We failed as organizers to make it clear in our contract with the food provider that this was a requirement, it was just communicated verbally and then we had no way of resolving it with them later. I can't tell you how many times I've been to Debconf and had selected vegetarian, and the food providers made just enough vegetarian food based on the numbers that the organizers provided (probably between 3-10 people, depending on which Debconf) by the time I got through the line, the vegetarian was gone because various non-vegetarians thought it would be nice to have some of that food. After a few days of going hungry, or having to go elsewhere and miss sessions, we would figure out who the other vegetarians were and organize to stop that madness, usually by making it clear to the non-vegetarians that they should NOT touch that food, but that usually didn't work, we often gave up in frustration. So, yes, I think the framing problem is important here, but the real problem is that the negotiations with food providers should be approached from a different perspective. Asking them to provide gluten friendly, ovo-lacto vegetarian food (and this does need to be clarified, because many countries think that chicken and/or fish is vegetarian) as the primary base, enough to feed *everyone*, with a meat/fish option to add to it if you prefer, is going to fix the fundamental problem. I have yet to find a meat eater, who *needs* meat at every meal, and *only* meat. Everyone likes to have something else, so make sure that something else is the primary course, and suitable for everyone, instead of trying to perfectly engineer the exact portions based on the indications made on this faulty questionnaire. ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On 05/02/15 18:49, Gunnar Wolf wrote: I think this is right(er), although still pointless IMO. I do not believe (most) people expect to eat meat at every meal. I think it would be easier to agree with our caterer to provide meat for approximately half of the days. I don't think it'd be seen as too little, and I think you would approve of the idea of setting a hard-maximum on served meat! :) As I said before, the problem is not the form, but the caterers just putting N vegetarian and M meat-including dishes, instead of offering a bit more choice. Instead of trying to have no-meat days, the caterer could just have some extra vegetarian on offer, and let people choose, while having a reserve for the people who only eat vegetarian. Also, usually making extra amounts of vegetarian food is not such a big problem, because that food can usually be recycled into something else (vegetarian or not) in the next meal. All of this, though, is unrelated to the form, and something that it will have to be dealt with the caterer. -- Martín Ferrari (Tincho) ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
Re: [Debconf-team] Food [Re: Registration questions]
On Thu 2015-02-05 13:47:14 -0500, Gaudenz Steinlin wrote: I fail to see why you think that the current proposed wording of no dietary restrictions implies that every meal will have meat. I think this because i've seen it happen very often. Many conference meals i've been at include explicit instructions to the omnivores to not eat any of the vegetarian food so that the vegetarians will have enough to eat. This results in more people eating meat than want to eat meat. I don't see anything in this option that guarantees you meat on every meal or even on every day. I also don't think we have to offer this at all. I at least never heared of a serious diet which requires someone to eat meat every day. We also don't offer cheese or apples or whatever every day as an option. If there are special needs, then there is always the option to contact the organizers. I'm glad that there seems to be agreement at least among those on this list that no dietary restrictions does not and should not mean meat at every meal. Sure, adding must eat meat/fish at every meal to the current options would be a fine step to take. I would strongly oppose to add such an option. This request just seems insane to me. The option no restrictions should just include as much meat the organiziers and the caterer thinks is reasonable. The questions then, are: * how much meat do we think is reasonable? * how do we arrive at that decision? I'm all in favor of not offering meat on every meal and for ordering more vegetarian meals than the minimum number required to feed those that indicated that they only eat vegetarian (or vegan) food. I'm glad to hear this too. How much more vegetarian and vegan meals should than the baseline should we request for each sitting? How should we arrive at this number? How should we communicate it to the people providing us with food? --dkg signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Debconf-team mailing list Debconf-team@lists.debconf.org http://lists.debconf.org/mailman/listinfo/debconf-team
