Re: Gnome classic mode
On 2012-09-12, Paul Wise p...@debian.org wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Wookey wrote: I'd be happy if xfce was the default. I would be happy if we threw away the concept of a default desktop and left that choice to people who do installs or downloading of live images. yes please. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnk50h4d.aom.nos...@sshway.ssh.pusling.com
Re: Gnome classic mode
Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 à 08:15 +, Sune Vuorela a écrit : On 2012-09-12, Paul Wise p...@debian.org wrote: I would be happy if we threw away the concept of a default desktop and left that choice to people who do installs or downloading of live images. yes please. Seconded. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1347442122.25952.446.camel@pi0307572
Re: Gnome classic mode
Paul Wise p...@debian.org (12/09/2012): I would be happy if we threw away the concept of a default desktop and left that choice to people who do installs or downloading of live images. [patch needed] Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Gnome classic mode
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 11:02:28AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote: On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Wookey wrote: I'd be happy if xfce was the default. I would be happy if we threw away the concept of a default desktop and left that choice to people who do installs or downloading of live images. Isn't the whole concept of default desktop just a matter of which desktop is included on CD1? Are you proposing that Debian switches to a series of CD1s (Debian Ghome Edition, Debian KDE Edition, Debian XFCE Edition etc) or that Debian does away with offline installs entirely (An internet connection is required to install Debian)? signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Gnome classic mode
Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 à 11:03 +0100, Darac Marjal a écrit : Isn't the whole concept of default desktop just a matter of which desktop is included on CD1? Are you proposing that Debian switches to a series of CD1s (Debian Ghome Edition, Debian KDE Edition, Debian XFCE Edition etc) or that Debian does away with offline installs entirely (An internet connection is required to install Debian)? What is on CD1 is really anecdotic, since most people use (or should use) the netinst. So the real question is being able to choose the desktop from the installer instead of having to pre-seed this choice. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1347445010.25952.451.camel@pi0307572
Re: Gnome classic mode
On Mi, 12 sep 12, 12:16:50, Josselin Mouette wrote: So the real question is being able to choose the desktop from the installer instead of having to pre-seed this choice. Assuming a user that has no idea what Gnome/KDE/Xfce/LXDE or even a Desktop Environment is, what should happen if the user makes no choice at all? Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Gnome classic mode
On 12/09/12 12:16, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 à 11:03 +0100, Darac Marjal a écrit : Isn't the whole concept of default desktop just a matter of which desktop is included on CD1? Are you proposing that Debian switches to a series of CD1s (Debian Ghome Edition, Debian KDE Edition, Debian XFCE Edition etc) or that Debian does away with offline installs entirely (An internet connection is required to install Debian)? What is on CD1 is really anecdotic, since most people use (or should use) the netinst. What does it happen when no internet connection is available (no access to internet, no supported driver for the net card) ? This case is certainly as anecdotic as CD1, but somehow in this situation CD1 can be very useful to step forward. So a CD1 with a light windows manager would be a good idea; the other windows managers could be placed on the other CDs. So the real question is being able to choose the desktop from the installer instead of having to pre-seed this choice. My 2 cents, Jerome -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505066b0.6020...@rezozer.net
Re: Gnome classic mode
Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 à 13:39 +0300, Andrei POPESCU a écrit : Assuming a user that has no idea what Gnome/KDE/Xfce/LXDE or even a Desktop Environment is, what should happen if the user makes no choice at all? What we have now: a sensible default. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1347449678.25952.460.camel@pi0307572
Re: Gnome classic mode
Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 à 12:40 +0200, Jerome BENOIT a écrit : What does it happen when no internet connection is available (no access to internet, no supported driver for the net card) ? This case is certainly as anecdotic as CD1, but somehow in this situation CD1 can be very useful to step forward. So a CD1 with a light windows manager would be a good idea; http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/ → debian-6.0.5-amd64-kde-CD-1.iso → debian-6.0.5-amd64-xfce+lxde-CD-1.iso I’d appreciate if debian-devel could be a place where we talk about Debian development, not a place to answer newbie FAQs. the other windows managers could be placed on the other CDs. I’d also appreciate if people could stop spreading dumb shit like “KDE is just a window manager”. We could easily ship our 70+ window managers on a single CD. Yet we now have trouble doing so with a single desktop environment. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1347449936.25952.469.camel@pi0307572
Re: Gnome classic mode
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 01:34:38PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 à 13:39 +0300, Andrei POPESCU a écrit : Assuming a user that has no idea what Gnome/KDE/Xfce/LXDE or even a Desktop Environment is, what should happen if the user makes no choice at all? What we have now: a sensible default. OK. I'm confused now. You want a default desktop without having a default desktop? signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Gnome classic mode
On Mi, 12 sep 12, 13:34:38, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 à 13:39 +0300, Andrei POPESCU a écrit : Assuming a user that has no idea what Gnome/KDE/Xfce/LXDE or even a Desktop Environment is, what should happen if the user makes no choice at all? What we have now: a sensible default. IMVHO it would probably be better to redesign the task selection screen into a single choice menu similar to this: , | Gnome Desktop Environment (graphical) | KDE Desktop Environment (graphical) | LXDE Desktop Environment (graphical) | Xfce Desktop Environment (graphical) | Standard Unix environment (text only) | Basic install (text only) ` Moving the cursor over the selections would give brief explanations about each option and should probably mention what hardware recommendations each option has (3D, RAM, etc.). Even better if this is done before the partitioning stage so that guided partitioning recipes can be checked/adjusted according to the size requirements. Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Gnome classic mode
On 12/09/12 13:38, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 à 12:40 +0200, Jerome BENOIT a écrit : What does it happen when no internet connection is available (no access to internet, no supported driver for the net card) ? This case is certainly as anecdotic as CD1, but somehow in this situation CD1 can be very useful to step forward. So a CD1 with a light windows manager would be a good idea; http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/ → debian-6.0.5-amd64-kde-CD-1.iso → debian-6.0.5-amd64-xfce+lxde-CD-1.iso I’d appreciate if debian-devel could be a place where we talk about Debian development, not a place to answer newbie FAQs. Claiming that ``What is on CD1 is really anecdotic, since most people use (or should use) the netinst'' really sounds as claim of a newbie who has never installed Debian on a computer. So do not be surprised to get newbie like responses. Otherwise, I can manage anecdotic situations without reading newbie FAQ: thanks ! the other windows managers could be placed on the other CDs. I’d also appreciate if people could stop spreading dumb shit like “KDE is just a window manager”. Did I say that ? We could easily ship our 70+ window managers on a single CD. Yet we now have trouble doing so with a single desktop environment. I wanted to stress that netinst may not be the only way: the ``most people'' argument is a little short, not to say a newbie argument. Jerome -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505093e7.40...@rezozer.net
Re: Gnome classic mode
On 12/09/2012 15:53, Jerome BENOIT wrote: Claiming that ``What is on CD1 is really anecdotic, since most people use (or should use) the netinst'' really sounds as claim of a newbie who has never installed Debian on a computer. So do not be surprised to get newbie like responses. Otherwise, I can manage anecdotic situations without reading newbie FAQ: thanks ! I am pretty sure the claim is that people installing Debian either use netinst or use a larger support (such as USB key or DVD). Debian requires so many CD that I do not see the practical use of the CD image except in very specific contexts. I do not say it has no uses; I think Josselin is right when saying that it's anecdotic. More computers everyday do not have a CD-reader. In wheezy+2, CD will probably have become really obsolete. This surely could be backed by numbers of downloads, that I do not have. Oh, and this has been discussed this summer already. Sincerly, -- Jean-Christophe Dubacq signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Gnome classic mode
Hi: On 12/09/12 16:36, Jean-Christophe Dubacq wrote: On 12/09/2012 15:53, Jerome BENOIT wrote: Claiming that ``What is on CD1 is really anecdotic, since most people use (or should use) the netinst'' really sounds as claim of a newbie who has never installed Debian on a computer. So do not be surprised to get newbie like responses. Otherwise, I can manage anecdotic situations without reading newbie FAQ: thanks ! I am pretty sure the claim is that people installing Debian either use netinst or use a larger support (such as USB key or DVD). This claim sounds more reasonable. Debian requires so many CD that I do not see the practical use of the CD image except in very specific contexts. I do not say it has no uses; I think Josselin is right when saying that it's anecdotic. More computers everyday do not have a CD-reader. In wheezy+2, CD will probably have become really obsolete. we are at Wheezy minus six months (or so): let give to time some time. This surely could be backed by numbers of downloads, that I do not have. Indeed the ratio CD1/(DVD+USB+ ... (minus)(netinst)) should be low. Oh, and this has been discussed this summer already. and netinst is not the only way. Sincerly, Best wishes, Jerome -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5050ae9c.2070...@rezozer.net
Re: Gnome classic mode
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 6:16 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 à 11:03 +0100, Darac Marjal a écrit : Isn't the whole concept of default desktop just a matter of which desktop is included on CD1? Are you proposing that Debian switches to a series of CD1s (Debian Ghome Edition, Debian KDE Edition, Debian XFCE Edition etc) or that Debian does away with offline installs entirely (An internet connection is required to install Debian)? Debian already produces multiple CD1's with almost those exact labels. What is on CD1 is really anecdotic, since most people use (or should use) the netinst. So the real question is being able to choose the desktop from the installer instead of having to pre-seed this choice. The installer already enables the user to make this choice. I suppose it's under a kind of obscure boot option, which would explain why so many usually well-informed people apparently don't know about it. Take a look under Advanced options - Alternative desktop environments next time you boot the installer. Whether those options would be more visible/discoverable under tasksel instead of the boot menu is certainly open for debate, but it's not likely to change for wheezy. Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=MN_EkAQQo809nPx8WUP5wvFKZY6pYLxSZmPQ9Q=dio...@mail.gmail.com
Gnome classic mode
M-x thread-hijacking-mode Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org (11/09/2012): Just because these people are noisy doesn’t make them numerous. Furthermore, Debian (and Ubuntu too IIRC) makes “GNOME classic” available right from the login manager, with the default installation. Not considering gnome-panel 3.x a continuation of the existing environment is purely bad faith. Speaking of which, Ubuntu (according to Jeremy) disabled the “booh, bad luck, gnome classic mode” warning at first login. Do we want to do the same? As I said on IRC, I'm probably biased since I do quite a lot of testing. But you guys will probably decide what's best. Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Gnome classic mode
On 09/11/2012 08:07 PM, Cyril Brulebois wrote: M-x thread-hijacking-mode Josselin Mouettej...@debian.org (11/09/2012): Just because these people are noisy doesn’t make them numerous. Furthermore, Debian (and Ubuntu too IIRC) makes “GNOME classic” available right from the login manager, with the default installation. Not considering gnome-panel 3.x a continuation of the existing environment is purely bad faith. Speaking of which, Ubuntu (according to Jeremy) disabled the “booh, bad luck, gnome classic mode” warning at first login. Do you mean the warning about the lack of 3D support, so there's no Activities menu and zoom of windows, so gnome goes into Fallback mode? Well, I don't see why this warning should go away. What is the reason to do so? Do we want to do the same? As I said on IRC, I'm probably biased since I do quite a lot of testing. And because you do a lot of testing, it's annoying you, right? Well, for a normal user, you see this message only once. And even though, if you know that your hardware wont support it, probably you'll go for the Gnome classic mode directly and wont ever see the message. So if you choose the 3D windows zoom (which I found really annoying BTW) Activities menu, and that your hardware doesn't support it, I found very normal to display a warning at least once... Another thing: upstream decided to display a warning. I'm not sure it is the role of Debian to decide they are wrong. Just the 0.02 RMB opinion from a Gnome classic user, Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/504f3caf.1000...@debian.org
Re: Gnome classic mode
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/09/2012 08:07, Cyril Brulebois wrote: Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org (11/09/2012): Just because these people are noisy doesn’t make them numerous. Furthermore, Debian (and Ubuntu too IIRC) makes “GNOME classic” available right from the login manager, with the default installation. Not considering gnome-panel 3.x a continuation of the existing environment is purely bad faith. Speaking of which, Ubuntu (according to Jeremy) disabled the “booh, bad luck, gnome classic mode” warning at first login. Do we want to do the same? As I said on IRC, I'm probably biased since I do quite a lot of testing. But you guys will probably decide what's best. I've been doing some LTSP testing on Wheezy and it's incredibly annoying when every user has to get a warning that they're desktop is broken when using fallback on a thin client is actually a completely reasonable and normal thing to do. Sure, the local administrator could disable it, but it's nice having sane defaults. - -Jonathan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBPQGgACgkQorfMNyt6sO/SawCeNewju0hZExEBkhrkkfX/mVaU 16gAn2b42oPLOiq2aI8I5UnkiqRuI0aL =AhIG -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/504f406f.6010...@ubuntu.com
Re: Gnome classic mode
Thomas Goirand writes (Re: Gnome classic mode): Another thing: upstream decided to display a warning. I'm not sure it is the role of Debian to decide they are wrong. One of the points of having a distro is that a distro (being an entity with a better view of the bigger picture and a closer connection to the user) can make decisions to do things differently to upstream. It is not the job of Debian to do precisely what upstream think best. It is our job to do what /we/ think best. That's how Free Software works. In particular it is precisely the role of Debian to diverge from upstream wherever we think it best to do so. That includes an assessment of the amount of effort it would cost us to do so, of course, but in this case the amount of effort to disable the warning is going to be negligible. So now that we are thinking about the question (and going to the effort of making a decision about it) we should make our own judgement about whether that warning is valuable. I'm not sure of my actual opinion about the warning because I'm not sure of the technical background. But I think Debian should try to be remain good and useable even on machines with poor or no 3D graphics support, and not be seduced by bling and try to compete with the likes of Apple. There are many more people in the world whose computers don't have the latest shinies. Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20559.20889.98634.343...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
Re: Gnome classic mode
Le mardi 11 septembre 2012 à 15:58 +0100, Ian Jackson a écrit : I'm not sure of my actual opinion about the warning because I'm not sure of the technical background. But I think Debian should try to be remain good and useable even on machines with poor or no 3D graphics support, and not be seduced by bling and try to compete with the likes of Apple. There are many more people in the world whose computers don't have the latest shinies. Yes, and this is why we ship and support “GNOME 3 classic” fully. It works for people with low-end machines, for those who want to keep their 3D power available for serious sh*t, and for nostalgics of GNOME 2. Can we move on now? I don’t even understand how a *one-time warning* explaining a user that his desktop will look different from what he might obtain on another Debian machine can even be a serious topic of discussion for debian-devel. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1347377525.25952.340.camel@pi0307572
Re: Gnome classic mode
Josselin Mouette writes (Re: Gnome classic mode): Le mardi 11 septembre 2012 à 15:58 +0100, Ian Jackson a écrit : I'm not sure of my actual opinion about the warning because I'm not sure of the technical background. But I think Debian should try to be remain good and useable even on machines with poor or no 3D graphics support, and not be seduced by bling and try to compete with the likes of Apple. There are many more people in the world whose computers don't have the latest shinies. Yes, and this is why we ship and support “GNOME 3 classic” fully. It works for people with low-end machines, for those who want to keep their 3D power available for serious sh*t, and for nostalgics of GNOME 2. So if it works just fine without the 3D I don't understand what the warning is for. Can we move on now? I don’t even understand how a *one-time warning* explaining a user that his desktop will look different from what he might obtain on another Debian machine can even be a serious topic of discussion for debian-devel. We normally try quite hard to reduce the number of questions in the installer, naggy prompts, etc., to make it as easy as possible to get started with Debian. If there is nothing wrong with the non-3D installation, and nothing the user can do about it, then surely a warning isn't appropriate. And a message that will be seen by a substantial proportion of Debian's new users is I think a perfectly good topic of conversation here. Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20559.24293.494741.601...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
Re: Gnome classic mode
On 09/11/2012 12:55 PM, Ian Jackson wrote: Josselin Mouette writes (Re: Gnome classic mode): Can we move on now? I don’t even understand how a *one-time warning* explaining a user that his desktop will look different from what he might obtain on another Debian machine can even be a serious topic of discussion for debian-devel. We normally try quite hard to reduce the number of questions in the installer, naggy prompts, etc., to make it as easy as possible to get started with Debian. If there is nothing wrong with the non-3D installation, and nothing the user can do about it, then surely a warning isn't appropriate. And a message that will be seen by a substantial proportion of Debian's new users is I think a perfectly good topic of conversation here. I agree. I also would like to point out that current test builds of gnome live images have this issue. So without further effort to make a live-specific fix for this issue (something we try to avoid, as live images should reflect as closely as possible what someone sees when they install Debian) every time the live image is booted they will see this image unless they happen to be using persistence (which takes special effort by the user to set up, as it requires some place to write the persistence data to be explicitly designated). Ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/504f62cc.7070...@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca
Re: Gnome classic mode
On 11/09/2012 11:32, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mardi 11 septembre 2012 à 15:58 +0100, Ian Jackson a écrit : I'm not sure of my actual opinion about the warning because I'm not sure of the technical background. But I think Debian should try to be remain good and useable even on machines with poor or no 3D graphics support, and not be seduced by bling and try to compete with the likes of Apple. There are many more people in the world whose computers don't have the latest shinies. Yes, and this is why we ship and support “GNOME 3 classic” fully. It works for people with low-end machines, for those who want to keep their 3D power available for serious sh*t, and for nostalgics of GNOME 2. Can we move on now? I don’t even understand how a *one-time warning* explaining a user that his desktop will look different from what he might obtain on another Debian machine can even be a serious topic of discussion for debian-devel. I think I can explain it to you. Many people who install Debian for the first time do now know what Gnome is (or even Gnome Classic), nor do they realise that they could or choose something else from the session menu if they don't want to see a message telling them that something is broken. It's way more likely that someone who explicitly wants gnome shell but gets a gnome-fallback session will notice that they need to do something about it. -Jonathan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/504f6813.3080...@ubuntu.com
Re: Gnome classic mode
On 09/11/2012 01:11 PM, Ben Armstrong wrote: every time the live image is booted they will see this image unless they happen to be using ^ I meant to say see this error message, not see this image. ugh. crappy proofing, sorry. Ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/504f6ef5.1070...@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca
Re: Gnome classic mode
+++ Jonathan Carter [2012-09-11 12:34 -0400]: On 11/09/2012 11:32, Josselin Mouette wrote: Can we move on now? I don’t even understand how a *one-time warning* explaining a user that his desktop will look different from what he might obtain on another Debian machine can even be a serious topic of discussion for debian-devel. I think I can explain it to you. Many people who install Debian for the first time do now know what Gnome is (or even Gnome Classic), nor do they realise that they could or choose something else from the session menu if they don't want to see a message telling them that something is broken. If the message tells people to select 'gnome classic' in the logon menu to make it go away then that seems reasonable to me. (I've never seen this message as I switched to XFCE before gnome3 came out) I'd be happy if xfce was the default. Which is better depends if one prefers 'dull-but-works-everywhere' over 'shiny-but-not-universaly-liked'. I can see reasonable arguments in favour of either. Wookey -- Principal hats: Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM http://wookware.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120911172230.ge12...@stoneboat.aleph1.co.uk
Re: Gnome classic mode
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Wookey wrote: I'd be happy if xfce was the default. Which is better depends if one prefers 'dull-but-works-everywhere' over 'shiny-but-not-universaly-liked'. I can see reasonable arguments in favour of either. Robustness is a rather important/lofty goal especially given the often touted universal operating system moniker [0],[1]. Debian has never been specifically about the latest shiny anyway. So, let's be brave and choose the less ubiquitous (today) but more robust overall option. Best wishes, Mike [0] http://www.debian.org [page title] [1] http://pthree.org/2009/11/17/debian-the-universal-operating-system -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=MMeR2n2jVytS=sW087VEyMgBjoi8fTao+QEmeoeRZ=h...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Gnome classic mode
On 09/11/2012 02:22 PM, Wookey wrote: If the message tells people to select 'gnome classic' in the logon menu to make it go away then that seems reasonable to me. Again, not really an option for our live images. Two obvious options are: 1. Modify the live image to silently fail over to gnome classic. If that's not what a real install of Debian does, I really think this is a bad solution as it sets wrong expectations for how Debian is going to behave after they finish the test drive and do an install. 2. Do nothing. Let the error occur. This warns the user that their hardware isn't going to work well with gnome3, but is incredibly annoying for anyone who wants to actually use fallback mode (possibly for more than a single boot) on the live gnome images and has already seen the message. Which brings us back to what has already been proposed earlier in this thread: 3. Don't nag the user with this error. Silently fail over to gnome classic by default. I think this is the lesser of evils, both from my perspective as a Debian live team member, and in terms of what I think is best for users. I think it's obvious enough that you're not in gnome-shell when you land in fallback mode that you don't have to annoy users with a scary looking message as well. As a compromise I would accept if the notification were kept, but in a much subtler form. Ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/504f7c53.1000...@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca
Re: Gnome classic mode
Wookey woo...@wookware.org (11/09/2012): If the message tells people to select 'gnome classic' in the logon menu to make it go away then that seems reasonable to me. That's not needed; I did write “at first login”. (For those who wonder, the fact it's been displayed is then stored in dconf, see details in [1].) 1. http://lists.debian.org/20120805093640.ga26...@mraw.org Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Gnome classic mode
* Ian Jackson: So if it works just fine without the 3D I don't understand what the warning is for. It's a separate desktop environment, and not lust a lack of visual effects. None of the Javascript parts work in fallback mode because GNOME Shell isn't running. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/877gs09vxl@mid.deneb.enyo.de
Re: Gnome classic mode
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 01:38:08PM -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Wookey wrote: I'd be happy if xfce was the default. Which is better depends if one prefers 'dull-but-works-everywhere' over 'shiny-but-not-universaly-liked'. I can see reasonable arguments in favour of either. Robustness is a rather important/lofty goal especially given the often touted universal operating system moniker [0],[1]. Debian has never been specifically about the latest shiny anyway. So, let's be brave and choose the less ubiquitous (today) but more robust overall option. Does it support accessibility? Just because you quote that we're universal… Kind regards Philipp Kern -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120911221910.ga20...@hub.kern.lc
Re: Gnome classic mode
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Philipp Kern wrote: On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 01:38:08PM -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Wookey wrote: I'd be happy if xfce was the default. Which is better depends if one prefers 'dull-but-works-everywhere' over 'shiny-but-not-universaly-liked'. I can see reasonable arguments in favour of either. Robustness is a rather important/lofty goal especially given the often touted universal operating system moniker [0],[1]. Debian has never been specifically about the latest shiny anyway. So, let's be brave and choose the less ubiquitous (today) but more robust overall option. Does it support accessibility? Just because you quote that we're universal… 4.8 does have some accessibility features and 4.10 brings more (like orca support for the visually impaired). So, it is not yet up to par with gnome in terms of accessibility, but then again gnome would still be an option. Whether switching desktops (or choosing a different on at install time) would seem too difficult for those that need accessibility is certainly an open question. Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=MOR1Z1CV72irwPzJ=HoV=yB60VGN3wxAneO=m8fvb1...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Gnome classic mode
Philipp Kern pk...@debian.org (12/09/2012): Does it support accessibility? Just because you quote that we're universal… Last I heard (and if my memory is right, which probably isn't the case, so please double check), a11y should work more or less, but with xfce = 4.10. That's what's in experimental, oops. Last I heard from Gnome maintainers, a few minutes ago, a11y support is almost working everywhere in Gnome (painful transition to new at-spi AFAICT), one of the missing bit is gdm in non-shell mode. My current directory is ~/hack/gdm-upstream.git, FWIW. Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Gnome classic mode
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Wookey wrote: I'd be happy if xfce was the default. I would be happy if we threw away the concept of a default desktop and left that choice to people who do installs or downloading of live images. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6Fmv6HP0mTS=WuCKHVZTj4zaXyaBuEgfiQVKZnXab=5...@mail.gmail.com
