subject:"Re\: systemd\-fsck\?"

Hi,

Russ Allbery:
  How difficult would it be, for the sake of compatibility if nothing
  else, to teach su not to create a new PAM session when it doesn't
  already run within one?
 
 You don't want to do that in general since that defeats the primary
 purpose of su: creating a new session as a different user.
 
That's exactly my point. *In general*.

I see two cases here.

* I'm a logged-in user and use su to run … whatever.
  In this case, whether it creates a new session or not doesn't matter
  (because there already is one), so one more cannot add more blockage to
  hibernation et al. than there already is.

* I'm a startup script or cron job.
  For me, su should just set credentials, but *not* create any session
  or similar.

* Oh, wait, there's a third one:
  I'm using su to manually run /etc/init.d/skeleton start, and expect the
  daemon thus started to hang around indefinitely.

  Not a problem with systemd since it redirects the actual starting-of-the-
  -daemon part to itself, thanks to the LSB function inclusion which IMHO
  every init script should have these days (NB, does Lintian check for
  that?).

 It's sort of an interesting question as to whether you want to set up a
 new session when running a single command.

Since su can't really know whether the command it runs is to be used like
a shell, a one-off, or a daemon, I'm afraid that this question doesn't have
a good answer.

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Re: systemd-fsck?

Hi,

Thorsten Glaser:
 • no /etc/init.d/$foo (to tabcomplete, no less!) any more
 
Why you think these are going away? They're not, not any time soon;
and you can still use them when you're running systemd (assuming that you
include the LSB functions, like init.d/skeleton has been advising you for
the last umpteen years), no matter whether you have a native .service file.

And even if your init script is from the stone ages, it won't suddenly
break. More than before, that is.

 • totally different ways to rescue a system that does not boot
   cleanly any more
 
You choose the 'rescue' option in your boot manager. Same as now.

In fact, rescuing a system becomes way easier even without learning any
magic tools. For example, when bootup breaks you get dropped into a rescue
shell, same as before. The difference with systemd is that as soon as you
manage to mount that recalcitrant file system, bootup just continues;
you don't actually have to *do* anything to trigger that.

Contrast that to the SysV way where your best way to get a clean startup
in that situation is a reboot.

Anyway, yeah, the tools are different. They're also much more capable;
(wearing my sysadmin hat) I can fix my system / daemon a whole lot
faster than before -- don't ask me how often I had to use strace on some
daemon because its stderr got helpfully redirected to /dev/null or,
worse, to an already-recycled log file somewhere.

With a sensible systemd unit file, this becomes a non-issue.

So what *is* the problem?

 And CVS does not need replacing. (git’s got different use cases.)
 
Frankly, I do not know of a single usecase for CVS which git doesn't
handle *way* better.

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Re: systemd-fsck?

Hi,

Thorsten Glaser:
 OK. But who says this is to stay? The systemd developers are
 hostile towards legacy stuff in a really intricate way. Take
 not jornal here but something else as example: they support
 running both ntpd and their own thing, to sweeten the deal
 now, but plan on dropping ntpd support later:
 http://www.ohloh.net/p/systemd/commits/335063290
 
Maybe because ntpd has a different use case, and running a time *server*
on a system with no stable network connection does not make much sense?

This way of arguing is like a hydra.
You refute one, three others pop up.

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Re: systemd-fsck?

Hi,

Thorsten Glaser:
 There’s not really a line between them, you know. (But it was
 nice to have a published list of those people who maybe could
 accidentally be hit by a tactical small-bus…)
 
I hereby apologize to the list at large for replying to your earlier emails.

*PLONK*.

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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-14 Thread Jakub Wilk


* Matthias Urlichs matth...@urlichs.de, 2014-05-14, 17:30:
In fact, rescuing a system becomes way easier even without learning any 
magic tools. For example, when bootup breaks you get dropped into a 
rescue shell, same as before. The difference with systemd is that as 
soon as you manage to mount that recalcitrant file system, bootup just 
continues; you don't actually have to *do* anything to trigger that.


Oh, so the rescue shell disappearing in the least expected moment is by 
design?


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-14 Thread The Wanderer

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 05/14/2014 12:07 PM, Jakub Wilk wrote:

 * Matthias Urlichs matth...@urlichs.de, 2014-05-14, 17:30:
 
 In fact, rescuing a system becomes way easier even without learning
 any magic tools. For example, when bootup breaks you get dropped
 into a rescue shell, same as before. The difference with systemd is
 that as soon as you manage to mount that recalcitrant file system,
 bootup just continues; you don't actually have to *do* anything to
 trigger that.
 
 Oh, so the rescue shell disappearing in the least expected moment is
 by design?

I thought of mentioning something in that direction myself.

When I've successfully mounted a missing filesystem in a rescue
environment, I don't necessarily *want* to continue booting immediately;
I might want to check it and see if I can figure out what went wrong,
and/or make notes about what I did to get it working, or fix something
else that I know or suspect will have also gone wrong due to the same
cause and which I want to make sure is working before boot continues, or
any of a number of other things.

I would find having the system automatically continue boot just because
a filesystem got mounted to be quite surprising. At the bare minimum, I
would expect to need to terminate the rescue shell ('exit' or Ctrl-D)
before any such thing would occur. In fact, I would consider the need to
do so to be desirable.

- --
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Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-14 Thread Russ Allbery

Matthias Urlichs matth...@urlichs.de writes:

 I see two cases here.

 * I'm a logged-in user and use su to run … whatever.
   In this case, whether it creates a new session or not doesn't matter
   (because there already is one), so one more cannot add more blockage to
   hibernation et al. than there already is.

PAM sessions are not just for blocking hibernation.  They do many other
things as well.  If you use su to run a command as another user where you
have to authenticate with a password, and you're using pam-krb5, you may
indeed want to create a new session so that your new Kerberos tickets are
properly stored (for NFSv4 access, for example) and removed properly when
that command or shell exits.

(Now, as it happens, in that particular case, I think only calling setcred
will do the right thing if the parent sticks around to call pam_end after
the command finishes.  But I don't believe that's universally the case.)

 * I'm a startup script or cron job.
   For me, su should just set credentials, but *not* create any session
   or similar.

Right.  (Or you should use something other than su.)

 * Oh, wait, there's a third one:
   I'm using su to manually run /etc/init.d/skeleton start, and expect the
   daemon thus started to hang around indefinitely.

   Not a problem with systemd since it redirects the actual
   starting-of-the-daemon part to itself, thanks to the LSB function
   inclusion which IMHO every init script should have these days (NB,
   does Lintian check for that?).

Right.  And I think it does, although I'm not sure.

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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-14 Thread Michael Biebl

Am 14.05.2014 18:30, schrieb The Wanderer:
 On 05/14/2014 12:07 PM, Jakub Wilk wrote:
 
 * Matthias Urlichs matth...@urlichs.de, 2014-05-14, 17:30:
 
 In fact, rescuing a system becomes way easier even without learning
 any magic tools. For example, when bootup breaks you get dropped
 into a rescue shell, same as before. The difference with systemd is
 that as soon as you manage to mount that recalcitrant file system,
 bootup just continues; you don't actually have to *do* anything to
 trigger that.
 
 Oh, so the rescue shell disappearing in the least expected moment is
 by design?
 
 I thought of mentioning something in that direction myself.
 
 When I've successfully mounted a missing filesystem in a rescue
 environment, I don't necessarily *want* to continue booting immediately;

I can not confirm this behaviour Matthias describes with v204.

If I have mount point in /etc/fstab which points to a
non-existing/non-available device, systemd *does* drop me into a rescue
shell, but mounting the mount point manually does *not* automatically
make the boot continue.
I have to exit the rescue shell for that.

Michael





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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-14 Thread Marc Haber

On Tue, 13 May 2014 20:08:18 +0100, Adam D. Barratt
a...@adam-barratt.org.uk wrote:
adam@wheezy:~$ service tabtab

|[6/505]mh@swivel:~/transfer$ service tab tab
|.directorykarte4.png
|fotovoltaik.png   lageplan.png
|karte1.pngpdns-backend-mysql_3.1-4.log
|karte2.pngxing.png
|karte3.png
|[6/505]mh@swivel:~/transfer$ service 

Greetings
Marc
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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-14 Thread Marc Haber

On Tue, 13 May 2014 17:28:27 +0200, Vincent Bernat ber...@debian.org
wrote:
 ? 13 mai 2014 15:01 +0200, Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de :
Thank you so much for volunteering to contribute to GNOME packaging and
to make it work on configurations nobody will actually ever use.

We are eagerly waiting for your patches.

 This sort of behavior is precisely why many users are migrating away
 from Debian.

Could you please stop FUD? Do you have some reference for this claim?

I know at least two of them. And I, for myself, have greatly reduced
my efforts to report bugs in Debian since I alredy know the reaction
of many maintainers.

Greetings
Marc
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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-14 Thread Roger Lynn

On 13/05/14 20:30, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
 In data martedì 13 maggio 2014 19:42:32, David Goodenough ha scritto:
  service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
  systemd, and does the right thing.
 
 The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.
 If I use /etc/init.d/ then tab tells me what is there and spells it right.
 
 You should install bash-completion

Bash-completion has never worked for me from a root prompt.

Roger


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-14 Thread Russ Allbery

Roger Lynn ro...@rilynn.me.uk writes:
 On 13/05/14 20:30, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
 In data martedì 13 maggio 2014 19:42:32, David Goodenough ha scritto:

 service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
 systemd, and does the right thing.

 The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.
 If I use /etc/init.d/ then tab tells me what is there and spells it right.

 You should install bash-completion

 Bash-completion has never worked for me from a root prompt.

bash-completion is loaded from /etc/profile, which is only sourced by bash
for a login shell.  I suspect that you're using su, which does not create
a login shell.  In that case, only /etc/bash.bashrc is sourced, and its
code to load bash-completion for interactive shells is commented out.  (I
don't know why.)

I just confirmed that bash-completion works properly with service as root
if you run . /etc/profile.d/bash_completion.sh first.

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On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote:
Roger Lynn ro...@rilynn.me.uk writes:
On 13/05/14 20:30, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
In data martedì 13 maggio 2014 19:42:32, David Goodenough ha scritto:

service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
systemd, and does the right thing.

The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.
If I use /etc/init.d/ then tab tells me what is there and spells it right.

You should install bash-completion

Bash-completion has never worked for me from a root prompt.

bash-completion is loaded from /etc/profile, which is only sourced by bash
for a login shell. I suspect that you're using su, which does not create
a login shell. In that case, only /etc/bash.bashrc is sourced, and its
code to load bash-completion for interactive shells is commented out. (I
don't know why.)

I just confirmed that bash-completion works properly with service as root
if you run . /etc/profile.d/bash_completion.sh first.

It's not loaded from /etc/profile by default (which would probably
throw errors with other shells since all login shells source
/etc/profile). The default /etc/skel/.bashrc contains the following:

# enable programmable completion features (you don't need to enable
# this, if it's already enabled in /etc/bash.bashrc and /etc/profile
# sources /etc/bash.bashrc).
if ! shopt -oq posix; then
if [ -f /usr/share/bash-completion/bash_completion ]; then
. /usr/share/bash-completion/bash_completion
elif [ -f /etc/bash_completion ]; then
. /etc/bash_completion
fi
fi

That is why it works for user accounts but not for root by default. As
the comment suggests you can uncomment the same code block in
/etc/bash.bashrc. It would be nice if the default /root/.bashrc
contained the same snippet. I am not sure how the initial
/root/.bashrc gets put in place or where root's default lives. I
assume it is done by d-i?

Regards,
Jordan Metzmeier

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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-14 Thread Russ Allbery

Jordan Metzmeier titan8...@gmail.com writes:

 It's not loaded from /etc/profile by default (which would probably
 throw errors with other shells since all login shells source
 /etc/profile).

It is for me, via:

if [ -d /etc/profile.d ]; then
  for i in /etc/profile.d/*.sh; do
if [ -r $i ]; then
  . $i
fi
  done
  unset i
fi

See /etc/profile.d/bash_completion.sh.

However, I agree with the rest of your analysis.

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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Bas Wijnen

On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 07:01:14PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
 Dependency-based boot, the change to /bin/sh, and UUID-based mounting were
 all not drop-in replacements by that criteria.

Note that also none of them were forced on existing installations.  The change
of /bin/sh to dash (which is what you mean, I presume?) featured a debconf
prompt which IIRC defaulted to continue using bash, the other two were added
in d-i and existing installations were not touched, AFAIR.

Thanks,
Bas


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Re: systemd-fsck?

Hi,

Kevin Chadwick:
 previously on this list Matthias Urlichs contributed:
 
  I haven't yet seen a system where booting with init=/bin/bash works but
  booting systemd in emergency mode does not.
 
 Have you added me to a killfile?

* Am I under some sort of obligation to read each and every message in this
  thread, or indeed on debian-devel?

* Are you capable of understanding what other people write?
  _I_ have not seen such a system.
  If I had, (a) I'd admit that and (b) I'd have tracked down the problem.

 I mentioned such a bug as happened in Arch testing in this very thread
 or do you mean a debian system?
 
I'd be very interested in the cause of that bug, and presumably so do the
systemd maintainers. However, on my machines systemd's emergency mode
worked flawlessly every time I needed it.

(SysVinit's single mode, for the record, did not.)

 How it wasn't found before hitting testing beats me 

* Boot your system in emergency mode.
* It works.

How else would you test that?

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Re: systemd-fsck?

Hi,

Steve Langasek:
 As the maintainer of the pam package in Debian, I assure you: this is a bug
 in dirmngr.  System services should not (must not) call interfaces that
 launch pam sessions as part of their init scripts.  su is one of those
 interfaces.
 
How difficult would it be, for the sake of compatibility if nothing else,
to teach su not to create a new PAM session when it doesn't already run
within one?

… and … would we, as a project, actually _want_ to do that?

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Re: systemd-fsck?

Hi,

Bas Wijnen:
 Sounds like those packages should conflict with each other.  It isn't a reason
 to uninstall anything.
 
If you've used aptitude for any length of time, its affinity towards
uninstalling half of your system in favor of *any* other way to resolve
a conflict should not be surprising, systemd or not.

 I, as a user, did not expect to be moved over to systemd

I expect *users* to not care one way or another.
Their system booted quite well before systemd and it will boot, hopefully even
better otherwise this was all for nothing, afterwards.

I expect people who *really* do not want systemd to blacklist it,
by way of apt-preferences. Problem solved.

A mere re-ordering of dependencies in random packages will not accomplish
that; such re-ordering is also a disservice to that packages' maintainers
who use it to express *their* preference. Who says yours trumps theirs?

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Re: systemd-fsck?

Hi,

Cameron Norman:
 Is it not possible to tell if the sysvinit or upstart packages were
 installed manually, and give a prompt then (in addition to something like
 you described) ?
 
In theory, yes you could discover whether a package was installed explicity
or has been pulled in as a dependency.

In practice, however, a normal Debian installation marks each and every
package as being installed explicitly. This may be a deficiency which we
want to do something about, but doesn't help right now.

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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le lundi 12 mai 2014 à 11:42 -0700, Steve Langasek a écrit : 
  As far as GDM is concerned, any bug reported with systemd-shim installed
  will be ignored. The bug script should probably be updated to that
  effect, BTW.
 
 A better solution would be for you to step down as maintainer, since you
 clearly are not interested in proper integration of your packages with the
 rest of Debian.

If you really wish it so, I can write a script to automatically redirect
such bug reports to your mailbox. 

We have done the necessary steps for “proper integration” with your pet
package. It doesn’t mean anyone is interested in supporting it.

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: :' :
`. `'
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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Neil Williams

On Tue, 13 May 2014 11:31:19 +0200
Matthias Urlichs matth...@urlichs.de wrote:

 Hi,
 
 Cameron Norman:
  Is it not possible to tell if the sysvinit or upstart packages were
  installed manually, and give a prompt then (in addition to
  something like you described) ?
  
 In theory, yes you could discover whether a package was installed
 explicity or has been pulled in as a dependency.

 In practice, however, a normal Debian installation marks each and
 every package as being installed explicitly.

? huh ? This has never been the case AFAICT. That's how apt-get
autoremove works. Each package you specify on an individual apt-get
install line gets marked as manually installed - the dependencies of
those are not so marked. The marks can also be updated with apt-mark.
When the top-level package is removed, apt shows the packages which
were not manually installed in a list of packages which are potentially
suitable for autoremove.

 This may be a deficiency
 which we want to do something about, but doesn't help right now.

However, apt-mark status is probably not the answer to the original
question which needs to be based on what packages are currently
installed.

-- 


Neil Williams
=
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/



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Re: systemd-fsck?

On Sun, 11 May 2014 22:34:47 -0700, Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org
wrote:
On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 09:10:21AM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
  The plain fact:

  Using systemd breaks something that worked for probably a decade or longer
  before however long that su is in that init script.  So on what account do
  you call calling su in an init script a bug?  It may not be the most
  elegant solution to do things, granted, but a bug?  Come on.  Calling it a
  bug just cause systemd / policykit treat calling su in an initscript as
  they do is quite arrogant in my eyes.

 As the maintainer of the pam package in Debian, I assure you: this is a bug
 in dirmngr.  System services should not (must not) call interfaces that
 launch pam sessions as part of their init scripts.  su is one of those
 interfaces.

 Is this documented anywhere, or is this only clear with detailed PAM
 knowledge, which I have tried to build numerous times in the last ten
 years and was never able due to (in my opinion) inadequate
 documentation on the beginner level.

It's not documented anywhere; it's an emergent property which is obvious if
you understand the underlying design, but not something that was ever
designed per se.  It might not be a bad idea to document it, though I'm not
sure where the best place to do this would be.

Where is the underlying design explained?

Greetings
Marc
-- 
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Re: systemd-fsck?

On Mon, 12 May 2014 19:01:14 -0700, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org
wrote:
Dependency-based boot, the change to /bin/sh, and UUID-based mounting were
all not drop-in replacements by that criteria.

The update to the first Debian stable release running systemd will
most probably be the most painful update Debian has ever had since
switching to glibc (which was well before I started using Linux).

We would be wise to make the last non-systemd release an LTS one so
that enterprise users can stay on that release until the systems these
installations run are retired.

Greetings
Marc
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Re: systemd-fsck?

On Mon, 12 May 2014 13:58:31 +0200, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org
wrote:
Le lundi 12 mai 2014 à 12:16 +0200, Andrew Shadura a écrit : 
  As far as GDM is concerned, any bug reported with systemd-shim installed
  will be ignored. The bug script should probably be updated to that
  effect, BTW.
 
 This sort of behaviour is precisely why so many people not only
 dislike systemd, but also it's maintainers.

Thank you so much for volunteering to contribute to GNOME packaging and
to make it work on configurations nobody will actually ever use.

We are eagerly waiting for your patches.

This sort of behavior is precisely why many users are migrating away
from Debian.

Greetings
Marc
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Re: systemd-fsck?

On Mon, 12 May 2014 13:35:15 +0200, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no
wrote:
 On 12 May 2014 11:54, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote:
  Systemd is the default init system for jessie, and it should be listed
  as the first alternative. The fact that an alternative codepath exists
  for users with specific needs is nice for them, but it is not what we
  should focus our efforts on.
 
  As far as GDM is concerned, any bug reported with systemd-shim installed
  will be ignored. The bug script should probably be updated to that
  effect, BTW.
 
 This sort of behaviour is precisely why so many people not only
 dislike systemd, but also it's maintainers.

Are you aware that Joss isn't a systemd maintainer?  (He's one of the
GNOME maintainers.)

He is undoubtedly one of the less polite Debian people. This hurts the
distribution, its users, and open source.

Greetings
Marc
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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Matthias Klumpp

2014-05-13 15:01 GMT+02:00 Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de:
On Mon, 12 May 2014 13:58:31 +0200, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org
wrote:
Le lundi 12 mai 2014 à 12:16 +0200, Andrew Shadura a écrit :
As far as GDM is concerned, any bug reported with systemd-shim installed
will be ignored. The bug script should probably be updated to that
effect, BTW.

This sort of behaviour is precisely why so many people not only
dislike systemd, but also it's maintainers.

Thank you so much for volunteering to contribute to GNOME packaging and
to make it work on configurations nobody will actually ever use.

We are eagerly waiting for your patches.

This sort of behavior is precisely why many users are migrating away
from Debian.
While the nobody will actually ever use can hardly be called
deescalating, admittedly, in the matter Joss is absolutely right:
Better spend the limited time we as volunteers have to support one
thing best, instead of having multiple half-baked solutions, like
GNOME support 4 init-systems, unfortunately session management
doesn't work properly on any of them.
If you want an additional configuration to be supported, where nobody
is working on yet, you should commit to maintaining it. If there is a
huge group of people who *want* that feature to happen, it will happen
and it will get all the manpower it needs.
And I am pretty sure Joss wouldn't block properly maintained patches
for alternative configurations (as long as they don't lead to problems
in the default configuration). In the same way, nobody will (and
should) block properly maintainer upstart/sysvinit/systemd units.
Cheers,
Matthias

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Re: systemd-fsck?

On Mon, 12 May 2014 21:16:49 +0200, Bas Wijnen wij...@debian.org
wrote:
I, as a user, did not expect to be moved over to systemd, and given the
discussions about it and the older TC decisions about network manager getting
its dependencies right (to stop forcing all of gnome onto the user's system),
it felt to me as something that was sneaked past me.  I don't want Debian to do
that.  I don't really care about what init system I use, but I do care that I
can trust my system. 

+1

Greetings
Marc
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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le mardi 13 mai 2014 à 15:01 +0200, Marc Haber a écrit : 
 This sort of behavior is precisely why many users are migrating away
 from Debian.

You are entitled to think that users make decisions on the alleged
behavior of people they never heard of.

My opinion is that many users are migrating away from Debian because we
are unable to make decisions on important technical topics and leave
them with 3 different setups, none of which actually work, instead of
providing one that is correctly polished.

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'
  `-


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Re: systemd-fsck?

On Tue, 13 May 2014, Josselin Mouette wrote:

 My opinion is that many users are migrating away from Debian because we
 are unable to make decisions on important technical topics and leave
 them with 3 different setups, none of which actually work, instead of
 providing one that is correctly polished.

That’s precisely the GNOME 3 attitude (“no themes allowed in GTK+3”,
“our way or the highway”). I’m not surprised it’s also systemd’s, and
yours.

And I say you’re wrong. This does not belong into Debian itself. This
is a perfectly fine job for a derivate or Pure Blend: to provide a
polished system that serves one use case well.

Debian is the Universal OS, which means it provides high customisability
for people who want to choose their use cases themselves, and for those
whose use cases may differ from these of GNOME 3 developers.

bye,
//mirabilos, wearing DD hat in this eMail
-- 
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“mysql is about as much database as ms access” – “MSSQL at least descends
from a database” “it's a rebranded SyBase” “MySQL however was born from a
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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Vincent Bernat

 ❦ 13 mai 2014 15:01 +0200, Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de :

Thank you so much for volunteering to contribute to GNOME packaging and
to make it work on configurations nobody will actually ever use.

We are eagerly waiting for your patches.

 This sort of behavior is precisely why many users are migrating away
 from Debian.

Could you please stop FUD? Do you have some reference for this claim?
-- 
Avoid multiple exits from loops.
- The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan  Plauger)


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Re: systemd-fsck?

 On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 07:01:14PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

 Dependency-based boot, the change to /bin/sh, and UUID-based mounting
 were all not drop-in replacements by that criteria.

 Note that also none of them were forced on existing installations.  The
 change of /bin/sh to dash (which is what you mean, I presume?) featured
 a debconf prompt which IIRC defaulted to continue using bash, the
 other two were added in d-i and existing installations were not touched,
 AFAIR.

Right, which I've been arguing for already in this thread.  I don't think
we should force this on upgrades.  There should be a prompt and an
opportunity to not change init systems.

It remains to be seen if we will ship some software with jessie that
requires systemd be running as the init system, or if people will have the
time and resources to provide the necessary interfaces with sysvinit or
other init systems.  I certainly hope the latter is the case, and Steve
felt quite confident it would be, but the work hasn't happened yet, so we
can't be sure we won't end up in that situation.  If that's the case, then
some software may not work if you choose not to run systemd.  But we
should still prompt and not change without the user's permission.

-- 
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Re: systemd-fsck?


 How difficult would it be, for the sake of compatibility if nothing
 else, to teach su not to create a new PAM session when it doesn't
 already run within one?

You don't want to do that in general since that defeats the primary
purpose of su: creating a new session as a different user.

It's sort of an interesting question as to whether you want to set up a
new session when running a single command.  I'm a little surprised that su
does this as opposed to only calling setcred.

-- 
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Re: systemd-fsck?

 Matthias Urlichs matth...@urlichs.de wrote:

 In theory, yes you could discover whether a package was installed
 explicity or has been pulled in as a dependency.

 In practice, however, a normal Debian installation marks each and
 every package as being installed explicitly.

 ? huh ? This has never been the case AFAICT. That's how apt-get
 autoremove works. Each package you specify on an individual apt-get
 install line gets marked as manually installed - the dependencies of
 those are not so marked.

I think you missed the installation part, and Matthias is talking about
the behavior of d-i.

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Re: systemd-fsck?


 The update to the first Debian stable release running systemd will most
 probably be the most painful update Debian has ever had since switching
 to glibc (which was well before I started using Linux).

I highly doubt it.

 We would be wise to make the last non-systemd release an LTS one so that
 enterprise users can stay on that release until the systems these
 installations run are retired.

You're aware, right, that my primary background is with enterprise use,
and I've been doing large-site systems administration for twenty years?

systemd is a godsend with basically no downside for our enterprise use
cases.  I expect almost no problems across our entire environment, plus,
as a bonus, the opportunity to replace a bunch of homegrown hacks and
obscure approaches (such as all our lingering use of daemontools) with
something supportable, maintainable, and much better-documented.

Upgrading to systemd will be less painful than the sorts of things that we
have to do with every Debian upgrade.  Particularly PHP changes, which
always result in at least some heartburn.  It will also be much less
painful than the Apache 2.4 transition (which I'm also really looking
forward to, but which will involve way more work for us) and moving to
Puppet 3.x.  Compared to those, the minor bits of fiddling required to
make sure systemd works properly is noise.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/


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Re: systemd-fsck?

On Mon, 12 May 2014, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:

 ]] Andrew Shadura

  This sort of behaviour is precisely why so many people not only
  dislike systemd, but also it's maintainers.

 Are you aware that Joss isn't a systemd maintainer?  (He's one of the
 GNOME maintainers.)

There’s not really a line between them, you know. (But it was
nice to have a published list of those people who maybe could
accidentally be hit by a tactical small-bus…)

 UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are

I find it absolutely appalling that you, a systemd apologist,
have such an eMail signature, since systemd is violating the
spirit of UNIX and aiming to replace it with FLOS.


On Tue, 13 May 2014, Marc Haber wrote:

 This sort of behavior is precisely why many users are migrating away
 from Debian.

Right – but where to?

Maybe we shouldn’t make “the last version before systemd” an LTS
(it would probably end up being wheezy anyway, which enterprise
users already switched away from, by now, as I’ve given up believing
being able to install jessie from scratch without it), but fork
Debian, take with us as many developers as possible, and leave
the systemd people to be a separate distro.

bye,
//mirabilos, not ashamed
-- 
“When udev happened I wrote mdev.”
-- Rob Landley in http://www.landley.net/notes.html#23-04-2014
Although I am proud to be an enemy of systemd, myself.  --mirabilos
And CVS does not need replacing. (git’s got different use cases.)


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Re: systemd-fsck?

Apologies for the last few mangled messages with bad attributions or
character sets.  Emacs 24 didn't like its header and body separator
overridden (it thought my separator was a continuation line of a previous
header), which caused subtle problems with mail sending until I figured
out what was going on.  It should be fixed now (although I'm having to get
used to the ugly --text follows this line-- marker again).

-- 
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Re: systemd-fsck?

Thorsten Glaser t...@mirbsd.org writes:
 On Mon, 12 May 2014, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:

 Are you aware that Joss isn't a systemd maintainer?  (He's one of the
 GNOME maintainers.)

 There’s not really a line between them, you know. (But it was nice to
 have a published list of those people who maybe could accidentally be
 hit by a tactical small-bus…)

Wow.

Did you really just say that?

 I find it absolutely appalling that you, a systemd apologist, have such
 an eMail signature, since systemd is violating the spirit of UNIX and
 aiming to replace it with FLOS.

If you can't cope with the idea that there are other smart people in the
world who have access to all of the same data that you have and yet come
to different conclusions that you come to, you're in for a very
frustrating and difficult time.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Thibaut Paumard

Hi,

Le 13/05/2014 17:36, Russ Allbery a écrit :
 Right, which I've been arguing for already in this thread.  I don't think
 we should force this on upgrades.  There should be a prompt and an
 opportunity to not change init systems.

Instead of or in addition to such prompting, I expect this switch will
be documented in the Release Notes so that people who really care are
aware of the risks and the cases which are known to break.

Just my 2c.

Kind regards, Thibaut.





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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst

On Tue, May 13, 2014 18:03, Russ Allbery wrote:

 The update to the first Debian stable release running systemd will most
 probably be the most painful update Debian has ever had since switching
 to glibc (which was well before I started using Linux).

 I highly doubt it.

 We would be wise to make the last non-systemd release an LTS one so that
 enterprise users can stay on that release until the systems these
 installations run are retired.

 You're aware, right, that my primary background is with enterprise use,
 and I've been doing large-site systems administration for twenty years?

 systemd is a godsend with basically no downside for our enterprise use
 cases.  I expect almost no problems across our entire environment, plus,
 as a bonus, the opportunity to replace a bunch of homegrown hacks and
 obscure approaches (such as all our lingering use of daemontools) with
 something supportable, maintainable, and much better-documented.

 Upgrading to systemd will be less painful than the sorts of things that we
 have to do with every Debian upgrade.  Particularly PHP changes, which
 always result in at least some heartburn.  It will also be much less
 painful than the Apache 2.4 transition (which I'm also really looking
 forward to, but which will involve way more work for us) and moving to
 Puppet 3.x.  Compared to those, the minor bits of fiddling required to
 make sure systemd works properly is noise.

I could not agree more. In our enterprise environment, I have no
expectation at all that systemd will cause us significant trouble on
upgrades. Our troubles have centered things like grub1 to grub2 or,
indeed, new PHP and Perl versions, and I find it very likely that the
upgrade to jessie will again be around that and not at all around the init
system.


Cheers,
Thijs


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Stephen Frost

* Thorsten Glaser (t...@mirbsd.org) wrote:
 (But it was
 nice to have a published list of those people who maybe could
 accidentally be hit by a tactical small-bus…)

These comments are not necessary nor appropriate, ever.

Thanks,

Stephen


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Don Armstrong

On Tue, 13 May 2014, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
 (But it was nice to have a published list of those people who maybe
 could accidentally be hit by a tactical small-bus…)

This is absolutely inappropriate and has no place on a Debian mailing
list or anywhere else. Please retract this statement.

-- 
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I have no use for before and after pictures.
I can't remember starting, and I'm never done.
 -- a softer world #221
http://www.asofterworld.com/index.php?id=221


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Cyril Brulebois

Thibaut Paumard thib...@debian.org (2014-05-13):
 Le 13/05/2014 17:36, Russ Allbery a écrit :
  Right, which I've been arguing for already in this thread.  I don't think
  we should force this on upgrades.  There should be a prompt and an
  opportunity to not change init systems.
 
 Instead of or in addition to such prompting, I expect this switch will
 be documented in the Release Notes so that people who really care are
 aware of the risks and the cases which are known to break.

The sad thing is: almost nobody reads the release notes.

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Re: systemd-fsck?

Didier 'OdyX' Raboud dixit:

Le mardi, 13 mai 2014, 16.25:31 Thorsten Glaser a écrit :

 On Mon, 12 May 2014, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:

  Are you aware that Joss isn't a systemd maintainer?  (He's one of
  the GNOME maintainers.)
 
 There’s not really a line between them, you know. (But it was

On top of your first sentence being factually wrong (check the 
maintainer fields of the respective packages), I really think your 

I *know* that the people listed as maintainers of the respective
Debian packages, and the people listed as developers of the
respective upstreams, are not identical. What I was saying with
“There’s not really a line between them” relates to how they act
and what they propose, and, to a far greater amount, to how someone
from outside their “circles” perceives them (I’m by far not alone
in that).

bye,
//mirabilos (not suggesting, merely smiling at the idea)
-- 
“When udev happened I wrote mdev.”
-- Rob Landley in http://www.landley.net/notes.html#23-04-2014
Although I am proud to be an enemy of systemd, myself.  --mirabilos
And CVS does not need replacing. (git’s got different use cases.)


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Re: systemd-fsck?

Cyril Brulebois dixit:

The sad thing is: almost nobody reads the release notes.

Many people run testing or unstable, so there are no “release”s
to have notes for, either… (but yes, even those who run stable
don’t).

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
“When udev happened I wrote mdev.”
-- Rob Landley in http://www.landley.net/notes.html#23-04-2014
Although I am proud to be an enemy of systemd, myself.  --mirabilos
And CVS does not need replacing. (git’s got different use cases.)


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Re: systemd-fsck?

Thijs Kinkhorst dixit:

On Tue, May 13, 2014 18:03, Russ Allbery wrote:

 You're aware, right, that my primary background is with enterprise use,
 and I've been doing large-site systems administration for twenty years?

 systemd is a godsend with basically no downside for our enterprise use
[…]
I could not agree more. In our enterprise environment, I have no
expectation at all that systemd will cause us significant trouble on
upgrades. Our troubles have centered things like grub1 to grub2 or,

Yes, there were issues with e.g. grub1 to grub2, but do you honestly
think that sysadmins in a medium-sized company will cope with these?

• no /etc/init.d/$foo (to tabcomplete, no less!) any more

• journal

• totally different ways to handle services

• totally different ways to rescue a system that does not boot
  cleanly any more

• the init system breaking init scripts hand-written by people
  who don’t really know what they’re doing, have not even heard
  of LSB, much less “units”

I’m *positive* they won’t.

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
“When udev happened I wrote mdev.”
-- Rob Landley in http://www.landley.net/notes.html#23-04-2014
Although I am proud to be an enemy of systemd, myself.  --mirabilos
And CVS does not need replacing. (git’s got different use cases.)


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Cyril Brulebois

Thorsten Glaser t...@mirbsd.org (2014-05-13):
 (But it was nice to have a published list of those people who maybe
 could accidentally be hit by a tactical small-bus…)

That's absolutely shocking and intolerable.

KiBi.


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Re: systemd-fsck?

Thorsten Glaser t...@mirbsd.de writes:

 Yes, there were issues with e.g. grub1 to grub2, but do you honestly
 think that sysadmins in a medium-sized company will cope with these?

 • no /etc/init.d/$foo (to tabcomplete, no less!) any more

I've been telling people to stop using this for years.  You should stop
using this too, regardless of what init system you're using, since it
doesn't sanitize environment variables.  You leak all kinds of crap from
your personal shell environment into the daemon environment that can cause
mysterious and difficult-to-debug problems.

service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
systemd, and does the right thing.

 • journal

With the default systemd configuration on Debian, you won't ever know this
exists unless you use one of the features that takes advantage of it.
There's literally nothing to adjust to, so yes, of course they'll cope.

 • totally different ways to handle services

In that way in which what you're doing now continues to work and you can
use the new stuff when you feel like it.

 • totally different ways to rescue a system that does not boot
   cleanly any more

In that way in which booting from the rescue entry in Grub continues to
work just the way that it does right now.

 • the init system breaking init scripts hand-written by people
   who don’t really know what they’re doing, have not even heard
   of LSB, much less “units”

This was indeed a more difficult transition... which we already did years
ago when we switched to dependency-based boot.  Which did cause people a
fair bit of trouble.  But it's now been handled, and systemd is unlikely
to make any remaining issues any worse.

 I’m *positive* they won’t.

Good thing most of the problems you're worried about are figments of your
imagination, then, huh?

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread David Goodenough

On Tuesday 13 May 2014 11:06:10 Russ Allbery wrote:
 Thorsten Glaser t...@mirbsd.de writes:
  Yes, there were issues with e.g. grub1 to grub2, but do you honestly
  think that sysadmins in a medium-sized company will cope with these?
  
  • no /etc/init.d/$foo (to tabcomplete, no less!) any more
 
 I've been telling people to stop using this for years.  You should stop
 using this too, regardless of what init system you're using, since it
 doesn't sanitize environment variables.  You leak all kinds of crap from
 your personal shell environment into the daemon environment that can cause
 mysterious and difficult-to-debug problems.
 
 service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
 systemd, and does the right thing.
The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.
If I use /etc/init.d/ then tab tells me what is there and spells it right.

David
 
  • journal
 
 With the default systemd configuration on Debian, you won't ever know this
 exists unless you use one of the features that takes advantage of it.
 There's literally nothing to adjust to, so yes, of course they'll cope.
 
  • totally different ways to handle services
 
 In that way in which what you're doing now continues to work and you can
 use the new stuff when you feel like it.
 
  • totally different ways to rescue a system that does not boot
  
cleanly any more
 
 In that way in which booting from the rescue entry in Grub continues to
 work just the way that it does right now.
 
  • the init system breaking init scripts hand-written by people
  
who don’t really know what they’re doing, have not even heard
of LSB, much less “units”
 
 This was indeed a more difficult transition... which we already did years
 ago when we switched to dependency-based boot.  Which did cause people a
 fair bit of trouble.  But it's now been handled, and systemd is unlikely
 to make any remaining issues any worse.
 
  I’m *positive* they won’t.
 
 Good thing most of the problems you're worried about are figments of your
 imagination, then, huh?


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Clint Adams

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 07:42:32PM +0100, David Goodenough wrote:
 The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.
 If I use /etc/init.d/ then tab tells me what is there and spells it right.

Sounds like maybe you need a better shell.


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Adam D. Barratt

On Tue, 2014-05-13 at 19:42 +0100, David Goodenough wrote:
 On Tuesday 13 May 2014 11:06:10 Russ Allbery wrote:
  service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
  systemd, and does the right thing.
 The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.

In what way does it not work?

adam@wheezy:~$ service tabtab
acpid   checkroot-bootclean.sh  hdapsd  motd
pulseaudio  speech-dispatcher
acpi-fakekeycheckroot.shhdparm  
mountall-bootclean.sh   rc  stop-bootlogd
acpi-supportconsole-setup   hostname.sh 
mountall.sh rc.localstop-bootlogd-single
alsa-utils  cpufrequtilshwclock.sh  
mountdevsubfs.shrcS sudo
anacron cronkbd 
mountkernfs.sh  README  thinkfan
apmdcryptdisks  kerneloops  
mountnfs-bootclean.sh   reboot  udev
atd cryptdisks-earlykeyboard-setup  
mountnfs.sh rmnologin   udev-mtab
avahi-daemoncupskillprocs   mtab.sh 
rpcbind umountfs
binfmt-support  dbuskmod
networking  rsync   umountnfs.sh
bluetooth   exim4   libvirt-bin 
network-manager rsyslog umountroot
bootlogdfancontrol  libvirt-guests  
nfs-common  saned   unattended-upgrades
bootlogsfuselm-sensors  openvpn 
sendsigsurandom
bootmisc.sh gdm3loadcpufreq 
pppd-dnssingle  x11-common
checkfs.sh  haltminissdpd   procps  
skeleton
adam@wheezy:~$ service ftab
fancontrol  fuse
adam@wheezy:~$ service f

(It could do with skipping non-executable scripts, but...)

Regards,

Adam


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Salvo Tomaselli

In data martedì 13 maggio 2014 19:42:32, David Goodenough ha scritto:

  service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
  systemd, and does the right thing.
 
 The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.
 If I use /etc/init.d/ then tab tells me what is there and spells it right.

You should install bash-completion

-- 
Salvo Tomaselli

Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di
senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno.
-- Galileo Galilei

http://ltworf.github.io/ltworf/


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Michael Biebl

Am 13.05.2014 20:42, schrieb David Goodenough:
 On Tuesday 13 May 2014 11:06:10 Russ Allbery wrote:

 service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
 systemd, and does the right thing.
 The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.
 If I use /etc/init.d/ then tab tells me what is there and spells it right.

Might I suggest bash-completion here:
service TAB or
systemctl TAB
works just fine with bash-completion enabled.

At least for systemd, we also have completion support for zsh.

Cheers,
Michael


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Steve Langasek

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 07:42:32PM +0100, David Goodenough wrote:

  service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
  systemd, and does the right thing.
 The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.
 If I use /etc/init.d/ then tab tells me what is there and spells it right.

The bash-completion package knows how to complete arguments to 'service'.
If you use a different login shell, there's probably an equivalent.  In any
case, we shouldn't let ourselves be held back from improving our interfaces
simply because historically the interface was one that happened to be
compatible with filesystem-based tab completion implementations.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Thijs Kinkhorst

Op dinsdag 13 mei 2014 19:36:35 schreef Thorsten Glaser:
 Thijs Kinkhorst dixit:
 I could not agree more. In our enterprise environment, I have no
 expectation at all that systemd will cause us significant trouble on
 upgrades. Our troubles have centered things like grub1 to grub2 or,
 
 Yes, there were issues with e.g. grub1 to grub2, but do you honestly
 think that sysadmins in a medium-sized company will cope with these?

Yes! No problem.

 • no /etc/init.d/$foo (to tabcomplete, no less!) any more
 • journal
 • totally different ways to handle services
 • totally different ways to rescue a system that does not boot
   cleanly any more
 • the init system breaking init scripts hand-written by people
   who don’t really know what they’re doing, have not even heard
   of LSB, much less “units”

We're already in the habit of using service $foo start, because you do not 
want the nl_NL locale of the sysadmin starting Tomcat to leak into the app 
it's running. Our admins are very versed at working with rsyslog, which will 
still be there, so I expect no problems. We indeed discovered some half-baked 
init scripts in the dependency based boot transition, which proved to be an 
excellent opportunity to actually fix those up and we were better off after.

 I’m *positive* they won’t.

One thing that strikes me in your mail is the underlying sentiment that 
enterprise admins would be averse of change. Environments and technologies 
around us are changing constantly, and at our job we need to cope with such 
things as a new backup solution, changed network policies, rolling out IPv6, 
virtualizating systems, changing from one virtualization to another and then 
another, investigating ceph, building a DNSSEC-enabled DNS infrastructure, 
changing insights in SSL protocols and ciphers, or even just in-Debian changes 
like a new Django release or moving from Tomcat 6 to Tomcat 7. Something will 
probably change for us admins when systemd comes, although I doubt it will be 
as major as you imagine. Nonetheless, our admins are very well equipped to 
cope with something changing or working differently than it did before.


Cheers,
Thijs


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Christian Hofstaedtler

* Russ Allbery r...@debian.org [140513 18:21]:
  We would be wise to make the last non-systemd release an LTS one so that
  enterprise users can stay on that release until the systems these
  installations run are retired.
 
 You're aware, right, that my primary background is with enterprise use,
 and I've been doing large-site systems administration for twenty years?
 
 systemd is a godsend with basically no downside for our enterprise use
 cases.  I expect almost no problems across our entire environment, plus,
 as a bonus, the opportunity to replace a bunch of homegrown hacks and
 obscure approaches (such as all our lingering use of daemontools) with
 something supportable, maintainable, and much better-documented.
 
 Upgrading to systemd will be less painful than the sorts of things that we
 have to do with every Debian upgrade.  Particularly PHP changes, which
 always result in at least some heartburn.  It will also be much less
 painful than the Apache 2.4 transition (which I'm also really looking
 forward to, but which will involve way more work for us) and moving to
 Puppet 3.x.  Compared to those, the minor bits of fiddling required to
 make sure systemd works properly is noise.

I agree with all of this 100%.

Figuring out the required changes for UUID names, new HP device names,
the grub1 - grub2 migration, insserv/dependency based boot, and, as
much as I've seen so far, the switch to systemd as init -- all of this
is just noise, esp. in an enterprise environment where you already
support multiple distributions, which today already ship with different
init systems which are incompatible with each other.

Or, to name it in a different way: all those changes are small one
time costs, and sysadmins alreay deal with such things in a mostly
trivial way.

The real issues in an enterprise environment are way higher in the
stack.

I'm also looking forward to systemd to replace various local hacks
(@reboot anyone?), similar to what Russ already said above.

-- 
 ,''`.  Christian Hofstaedtler z...@debian.org
: :' :  Debian Developer
`. `'   7D1A CFFA D9E0 806C 9C4C  D392 5C13 D6DB 9305 2E03
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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Thibaut Paumard

Le 13/05/2014 19:38, Thorsten Glaser a écrit :
 Cyril Brulebois dixit:
 
 The sad thing is: almost nobody reads the release notes.
 
 Many people run testing or unstable, so there are no “release”s
 to have notes for, either… (but yes, even those who run stable
 don’t).

People who run testing or unstable should be prepared to deal with
occasional breakages. I do hope admins who upgrade remote, inaccessible
servers do read the release notes.

Kind regards, Thibaut.



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Re: systemd-fsck?

Russ Allbery dixit:

 • no /etc/init.d/$foo (to tabcomplete, no less!) any more

I've been telling people to stop using this for years.  You should stop
using this too, regardless of what init system you're using, since it
doesn't sanitize environment variables.  You leak all kinds of crap from

Right, see my other posting (the “cleanenv” script).

service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
systemd, and does the right thing.

It doesn’t work on lenny, and (unless service /etc/init.d/foo is
allowed) does not tabcomplete well (in all scenarios).

 • journal

With the default systemd configuration on Debian, you won't ever know this
exists unless you use one of the features that takes advantage of it.
There's literally nothing to adjust to, so yes, of course they'll cope.

OK. But who says this is to stay? The systemd developers are
hostile towards legacy stuff in a really intricate way. Take
not jornal here but something else as example: they support
running both ntpd and their own thing, to sweeten the deal
now, but plan on dropping ntpd support later:
http://www.ohloh.net/p/systemd/commits/335063290

 • the init system breaking init scripts hand-written by people
   who don’t really know what they’re doing, have not even heard
   of LSB, much less “units”

This was indeed a more difficult transition... which we already did years
ago when we switched to dependency-based boot.  Which did cause people a
fair bit of trouble.  But it's now been handled, and systemd is unlikely
to make any remaining issues any worse.

It’s not fully handled everywhere yet.


Thijs Kinkhorst dixit:

One thing that strikes me in your mail is the underlying sentiment that 
enterprise admins would be averse of change. Environments and technologies 

Fun thing: ours are. I wish we had IPv6… I used to run a BSD VM that
was a tunnel endpoint and just announced it into our LAN, but now that
we have separate admin areas, firewalls deny by default, etc. this is
no longer allowed. Some do investigate ceph, but even changing from
tomcat5.5 to tomcat6 is hard, tomcat7 does not work everywhere, and
developers don’t cooperate here either (I’m still trying to get all
java5 and java6 installs removed), though they all want maven 3.x…

Just don’t assume all installations are equal, nor that all people
who run them share the equal mindset. (We’re rid of etch for a few
months, and dapper and sarge for a few months more, thank the gods…)

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
“When udev happened I wrote mdev.”
-- Rob Landley in http://www.landley.net/notes.html#23-04-2014
Although I am proud to be an enemy of systemd, myself.  --mirabilos
And CVS does not need replacing. (git’s got different use cases.)


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Re: systemd-fsck?

Thibaut Paumard dixit:

People who run testing or unstable should be prepared to deal with
occasional breakages.

With occasional *temporary* breakages, such as packages disappearing
(in testing) or needing to be set on “hold” temporarily, yes.

With the init system suddenly be swapped out under one’s arse, no.

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
“When udev happened I wrote mdev.”
-- Rob Landley in http://www.landley.net/notes.html#23-04-2014
Although I am proud to be an enemy of systemd, myself.  --mirabilos
And CVS does not need replacing. (git’s got different use cases.)


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Steve Langasek

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 08:23:55PM +, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
 service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
 systemd, and does the right thing.

 It doesn’t work on lenny, and (unless service /etc/init.d/foo is
 allowed) does not tabcomplete well (in all scenarios).

Lots of things don't work on a Debian release that *stopped being supported
two years ago*.

-- 
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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
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Re: systemd-fsck?

Steve Langasek dixit:

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 08:23:55PM +, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
 service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
 systemd, and does the right thing.

 It doesn’t work on lenny, and (unless service /etc/init.d/foo is
 allowed) does not tabcomplete well (in all scenarios).

Lots of things don't work on a Debian release that *stopped being supported

Yes, but we *are* talking about “enterprise” use in this thread.
This is not the only old thing people use (ours and others), and
lenny is definitely less smelly than some others.

(I recently had to install a _new_ lenny system. It was necessary.)

bye,
//mirabilos
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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread David Goodenough

On Tuesday 13 May 2014 21:09:14 Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
 In data martedì 13 maggio 2014 19:42:32, David Goodenough ha scritto:
   service foo action works across Linux distributions, with or without
   systemd, and does the right thing.
  
  The big shame with service is that tab completion does not work properly.
  If I use /etc/init.d/ then tab tells me what is there and spells it right.
 
 You should install bash-completion
Does bash-completion work when the command is sudo not service?  Never seems
to for me.  I never log in as root, I always do root things using sudo.

David


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Josselin Mouette

Le mardi 13 mai 2014 à 22:46 +0100, David Goodenough a écrit :
 Does bash-completion work when the command is sudo not service?

Yes.

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'
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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-13 Thread Michael Biebl

Am 13.05.2014 23:46, schrieb David Goodenough:
 Does bash-completion work when the command is sudo not service?  Never seems
 to for me.  I never log in as root, I always do root things using sudo.

Sure, works fine.

-- 
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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-12 Thread Tollef Fog Heen

]] Steve Langasek 

 The maintainer may disagree, in which case one is free to escalate it
 to the release team precisely as Tollef has suggested.  But there's
 nothing inappropriate about having this discussion directly with the
 maintainer first.

Right, and I didn't complain about the initial severity, but once people
start getting into severity ping-pong it gets tedious.

 We certainly shouldn't insist that anyone who spots something they think is
 a release-critical bug be personally responsible for providing a patch and
 getting it accepted in the narrow window before the package automatically
 migrates to testing.

They're not responsible for it, no.  That doesn't mean they can take an
update hostage by saying «this must be fixed or I'll continue raising
the severity of this bug» either.  (I'm not saying you said or implied
that.)

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-12 Thread Bastien ROUCARIES

Le 11 mai 2014 23:06, Michael Biebl bi...@debian.org a écrit :

 Am 11.05.2014 19:37, schrieb Helmut Grohne:

  I trust you to be technically right on this. Still the number of
  packages getting this wrong is stunning[1]. Therefore I'd argue that

  [1]
http://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=su+-c+path%3Adebian%2F+path%3Ainit

 If I counted correctly, there are 5 packages using su in their init
 script, dirmngr being one of them. Considering that we have ~1200 SysV
 init scripts in Debian, I don't consider this number stunning at all.
 And yes, we should fix those init scripts.

Could you open a bug against lintian asking to detect such case (su use)
and with description of problem ans solution.

Bastien

 Michael
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Re: systemd-fsck?

Le dimanche 11 mai 2014 à 15:53 +0200, Marc Haber a écrit : 
 On Sun, 11 May 2014 13:47:39 +0200, Laurent Bigonville
 bi...@debian.org wrote:
 For other distributions (and other Unix based OS) most of (all?) the
 initscripts are already different anyway.
 
 Is it right to force that?

No, this is why we are migrating to systemd, which allows to use the
same service file across distributions.

-- 
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: :' :
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Re: systemd-fsck?

Le vendredi 09 mai 2014 à 21:13 +0200, Bas Wijnen a écrit : 
 I think it would be good for libpam-systemd to list systemd-shim first.

Certainly not.

Systemd is the default init system for jessie, and it should be listed
as the first alternative. The fact that an alternative codepath exists
for users with specific needs is nice for them, but it is not what we
should focus our efforts on.

As far as GDM is concerned, any bug reported with systemd-shim installed
will be ignored. The bug script should probably be updated to that
effect, BTW.

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'
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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-12 Thread Andrew Shadura

Hello,

On 12 May 2014 11:54, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote:
 Systemd is the default init system for jessie, and it should be listed
 as the first alternative. The fact that an alternative codepath exists
 for users with specific needs is nice for them, but it is not what we
 should focus our efforts on.

 As far as GDM is concerned, any bug reported with systemd-shim installed
 will be ignored. The bug script should probably be updated to that
 effect, BTW.

This sort of behaviour is precisely why so many people not only
dislike systemd, but also it's maintainers.

-- 
Cheers,
  Andrew


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[OT] Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-12 Thread Charles Plessy

Le Mon, May 12, 2014 at 12:16:48PM +0200, Andrew Shadura a écrit :
 
 On 12 May 2014 11:54, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote:
  Systemd is the default init system for jessie, and it should be listed
  as the first alternative. The fact that an alternative codepath exists
  for users with specific needs is nice for them, but it is not what we
  should focus our efforts on.
 
  As far as GDM is concerned, any bug reported with systemd-shim installed
  will be ignored. The bug script should probably be updated to that
  effect, BTW.
 
 This sort of behaviour is precisely why so many people not only
 dislike systemd, but also it's maintainers.

Hi Andrew,

this is the tragedy of the commons: the time and patience of maintainers can be
equally spent by anybody who thinksthat his opinion on systemd ought to be
listened, and therefore by the time one has a valid criticism to make, the
maintainers time and patience has been spent up by others.  Message filters are
a solution to this.

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-12 Thread Thorsten Glaser

On Sun, 11 May 2014, Marc Haber wrote:

 On Sat, 10 May 2014 22:13:01 +0200, Matthias Urlichs
 matth...@urlichs.de wrote:
 I also would not expect an end user to add su foo -c /do/whatever to
 /etc/rc.local. Your opinion may differ, that's OK.
 
 Especially people who are not as Debian-centric as we are tend to do
 exactly this. Simply because they don't know any better.

I’ve been doing so for ages, from a BSD PoV (not su -l though¹).
Sometimes su -c, sometimes chroot, sometimes both, rarely dchroot.
But so are my coworkers who are *not* experienced with BSD.

I’ve barely (not even completely) got our admins and systems
running Debian/LSB init scripts by now. Piling even more change
on top of what is currently needed for administration (ever
since insserv…) will not work; people will end with partially
broken systems and blame Debian and go back to use CentOS 5…


On Sun, 11 May 2014, Cyril Brulebois wrote:

 Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de (2014-05-11):
  Just curious as the maintainer of another package using su in an init
  script since 2001, how am I supposed to start a non-root process from
  an init script?
 
 start-stop-daemon has:
 
-c, --chuid username|uid[:group|gid]

But the start-stop-daemon documentation seems to imply (please
correct me if I’m wrong) that it’s for starting (and stopping)
specific executables, as dæmons, with pidfiles, etc. – not for
just running some shell code (which may or may not start other
processes and/or dæmons) as another user.

Taking dirmngr as example again:

output=$(su -c . /lib/lsb/init-functions  umask 027  start_daemon -p 
$PIDFILE $DAEMON --daemon --sh dirmngr) || return 1
eval $output || return 1

Before preparing the NMU¹, I searched long and wide for something
using start-stop-daemon which could replace this piece of code,
and found it not.


① Note I did NMU dirmngr to remove the -l from the su call,
  which was causing problems.

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
«MyISAM tables -will- get corrupted eventually. This is a fact of life. »
“mysql is about as much database as ms access” – “MSSQL at least descends
from a database” “it's a rebranded SyBase” “MySQL however was born from a
flatfile and went downhill from there” – “at least jetDB doesn’t claim to
be a database”  ‣‣‣ Please, http://deb.li/mysql and MariaDB, finally die!


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-12 Thread Thorsten Glaser

On Fri, 9 May 2014, Steve Langasek wrote:

ii  systemd   204-10
ii  systemd-sysv  204-10

  You can purge them. Install sysvinit-core at the same time.

 This is unconstructive advice.

No, it is not, for someone who wants systemd gone from their system.

 The systemd binary package contains logind,
 which is the de facto desktop seat manager for jessie and beyond,

What *is* a “desktop seat manager”? I’d not want it on servers
(and some coworkers are even running N-M on some of them…), and
Linux desktops (and nōn-Linux ones) have not needed those until
now either. So, I (still) question this change.

 environment with seat management on your own systems; but advising people to
 purge the systemd package from their systems is just wrong.

No.

  Another mistake you likely did is that, after the initial
  installation, you did not add
  APT::Install-Recommends 0;
  to /etc/apt/apt.conf, which is a must-have to be able to
  run Debian without something unwanted being run all the time.

 This is also unconstructive.

This is unconstructive towards Recommends: package relationships
but constructive towards people who want their Debian system
working more cleanly and without unwanted software installed
that is not even necessary for the software one does want to
function.

I’m not alone considering --install-recommends being the default
as broken, even today.


On Sat, 10 May 2014, Marc Haber wrote:

 We definetely should have a -unstable-user mailing list. -user is

Full ACK! And it should definitely target nōn-newbies.


On Sat, 10 May 2014, Dimitri John Ledkov wrote:

 Thus, interim, until we have a mechanism to ask what to do on
 upgrades, maybe sysvinit/sysvinit-core should gain a (bogus)
 dependency on systemd-shim?

Eh, *no*!

There is no need for systemd-shim on the vast majority of
Debian systems *either*. (Although my systemd-must-die pak-
kage conflicting with it is probably not right either – I’ll
keep it for now though, until it’s something that is major
blocking.)

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
Sometimes they [people] care too much: pretty printers [and syntax highligh-
ting, d.A.] mechanically produce pretty output that accentuates irrelevant
detail in the program, which is as sensible as putting all the prepositions
in English text in bold font.   -- Rob Pike in Notes on Programming in C


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-12 Thread Jeroen Dekkers

At Mon, 12 May 2014 12:16:48 +0200,
Andrew Shadura wrote:
 
 On 12 May 2014 11:54, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote:
  Systemd is the default init system for jessie, and it should be listed
  as the first alternative. The fact that an alternative codepath exists
  for users with specific needs is nice for them, but it is not what we
  should focus our efforts on.
 
  As far as GDM is concerned, any bug reported with systemd-shim installed
  will be ignored. The bug script should probably be updated to that
  effect, BTW.
 
 This sort of behaviour is precisely why so many people not only
 dislike systemd, but also it's maintainers.

Why are you blaming the systemd maintainers for decisions made by the
GNOME maintainers about GNOME?


Kind regards,

Jeroen Dekkers


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-12 Thread Thorsten Glaser

On Sat, 10 May 2014, Bas Wijnen wrote:

  So please get dirmngr fixed instead of blaming systemd/logind.
 
 This is the part you should _NEVER_ do.  It is YOUR responsibitiliy, as a
 maintainer (you are the maintainer, right?), to make sure that a bug that is
 reported in the wrong place gets sent to the right place.  It is GOOD that a
 user reports it (it is a real bug), and it isn't a problem if technically it
 isn't in your package; you just fix that.

Isn’t this how Google works (according to a friend who got hired
by them)? If you are the last one to touch something, you get to
fix the bugs, even if you didn’t cause them. (Where fix does not
necessarily mean to do it themselves; getting others to fix them
is also okay, but they have to track them down and ping them and
so on.)

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
15:41⎜Lo-lan-do:#fusionforge Somebody write a testsuite for helloworld :-)


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-12 Thread Tollef Fog Heen

]] Andrew Shadura 

 Hello,
 
 On 12 May 2014 11:54, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote:
  Systemd is the default init system for jessie, and it should be listed
  as the first alternative. The fact that an alternative codepath exists
  for users with specific needs is nice for them, but it is not what we
  should focus our efforts on.
 
  As far as GDM is concerned, any bug reported with systemd-shim installed
  will be ignored. The bug script should probably be updated to that
  effect, BTW.
 
 This sort of behaviour is precisely why so many people not only
 dislike systemd, but also it's maintainers.

Are you aware that Joss isn't a systemd maintainer?  (He's one of the
GNOME maintainers.)

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


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Re: systemd-fsck?

2014-05-12 Thread Andrew Shadura

Hello,

On 12 May 2014 13:35, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no wrote:
 This sort of behaviour is precisely why so many people not only
 dislike systemd, but also it's maintainers.

 Are you aware that Joss isn't a systemd maintainer?  (He's one of the
 GNOME maintainers.)

I am. I never claimed he is.

-- 
Cheers,
  Andrew


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Re: systemd-fsck?

Le lundi 12 mai 2014 à 13:26 +0200, Thorsten Glaser a écrit : 
 What *is* a “desktop seat manager”? I’d not want it on servers
 (and some coworkers are even running N-M on some of them…), and
 Linux desktops (and nōn-Linux ones) have not needed those until
 now either. So, I (still) question this change.

We have had a desktop seat manager since, if my memory serves right, the
lenny release: ConsoleKit. Lenny was the first release with proper
(non-hackish) graphical user switching. Not a coincidence.

 There is no need for systemd-shim on the vast majority of
 Debian systems *either*.

Good luck making any package relying on a PolicyKit-wrapped interface to
work on your “majority of systems”, then.

-- 
 .''`.Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'
  `-


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Re: systemd-fsck?