Re: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorActionForm.java:115)
Ok. Suggestion retracted. I'm a pacifist, so I don't endorse flogging anybody, especially Niall. As Craig pointed out, not all open source projects have reached the same level of cordiality. I was thinking of one such project at the time and I only wish they could acheive the same level of friendliness as the Struts project. Robert Michel Niall Pemberton wrote: I don't see this as a big issue and my intention was more of polite request rather than reprimand - although it may not have come accross that way. Seems to me that in a large and (hopefully) expanding community there are always going to be new people that don't know the conventions that this community operates under. My impression is that once people have been asked to use the user list rather than bugzilla they do (and querying INVALID tickets in bugzilla seems to back this up). Niall P.S. I'm -1 on Robert Michel's suggestion to give me a good flogging for including an answer when closing the bugzilla ticket :-) - Original Message - From: Matt Bathje [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Developers List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 6:50 PM Subject: Re: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorAc tionForm.java:115) Sorry, I must have been REALLY unclear here - I am not saying I expect/want people (or myself in particular) to ask questions on bugzilla and get a quick answer - just the opposite in fact. I totally understand and agree with all the reasons you mention for asking on the user list, and understood them before bringing this (non?)issue up. I have never myself asked a question on bugzilla that wasn't related to a bug or enhancement, and never plan to! What I am saying is that when people do ask questions on bugzilla, the questions are almost always answered as they are closed out. Also (in general) when somebody answers and closes the bug, it is within a few hours. Sometimes responses on the user list aren't so quick, or they never come, which can be discouraging. These discouraged people may see bugzilla as a quick way to get what should be a user-list question answered, because the commiters and other people that watch bugzilla tend to answer the questions even if they aren't bugs. Now - like I said, if it doesn't bother anybody that questions routinely get asked and answered in bugzilla then this isn't an issue, and sorry for bringing it up. If people are bothered by it, then I was offering one possible solution. Hopefully I've made myself more clear about this. Matt Bathje - Original Message - From: Craig McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Developers List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 12:28 PM Subject: Re: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorAc tionForm.java:115) On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:16:51 -0500, Matt Bathje [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Additional Comments From [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004-07-28 15:57 --- P.S. Rather than raising a *bug* report against Struts could you please post problems like this to the user list first. Raising *Bugs* is not the best way to get help - asking questions on the user list is. Thanks This is going to sound bad maybe - but from some peoples perspective, filing a bug report IS the best way to get help. Some questions to the users mailing list go unanswered (even something simple like this may get ignored.) When somebody files a (non)bug report like this though, it always seems to gets closed out very quickly with an answer and a reprimand to use the users list. The bug reporter gets exactly what they want - a quick answer. They can completley ignore the reprimand if they want. Now maybe this isn't a problem to anybody and it certainly doesn't bother me, I just thought I would bring it up based on what I've seen in the few months I've been part of the struts community. Of course, if this does bother people (especially if those people are committers) we need a solution. The only one I can think of is to stop rewarding the behavior - when somebody posts a question to bugzilla, it gets shut down quickly, but with no answer, just a pointer to the mailing list. (Whoever closed it down can also be sure to watch for the question on the user list and answer it so as not to piss people off...) Again, sorry if I am raising a non-issue, I just thought I would mention it. Matt, there are several big picture reasons that questions (as opposed to bug reports) should be raised on the user mailing list. * Issue tracking systems do not make it particularly easy to have a conversation and explore possibilities, particularly compared to how you can
DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorActionForm.java:115)
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, BUT PLEASE POST YOUR BUG RELATED COMMENTS THROUGH THE WEB INTERFACE AVAILABLE AT http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=30364. ANY REPLY MADE TO THIS MESSAGE WILL NOT BE COLLECTED AND INSERTED IN THE BUG DATABASE. http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=30364 org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorActionForm.java:115) --- Additional Comments From [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004-07-28 14:39 --- Can you provide the relevant Action Mapping as well. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorActionForm.java:115)
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL, BUT PLEASE POST YOUR BUG RELATED COMMENTS THROUGH THE WEB INTERFACE AVAILABLE AT http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=30364. ANY REPLY MADE TO THIS MESSAGE WILL NOT BE COLLECTED AND INSERTED IN THE BUG DATABASE. http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=30364 org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorActionForm.java:115) [EMAIL PROTECTED] changed: What|Removed |Added Status|NEW |RESOLVED Resolution||INVALID --- Additional Comments From [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004-07-28 15:57 --- P.S. Rather than raising a *bug* report against Struts could you please post problems like this to the user list first. Raising *Bugs* is not the best way to get help - asking questions on the user list is. Thanks Niall - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorActionForm.java:115)
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:16:51 -0500, Matt Bathje [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Additional Comments From [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004-07-28 15:57 --- P.S. Rather than raising a *bug* report against Struts could you please post problems like this to the user list first. Raising *Bugs* is not the best way to get help - asking questions on the user list is. Thanks This is going to sound bad maybe - but from some peoples perspective, filing a bug report IS the best way to get help. Some questions to the users mailing list go unanswered (even something simple like this may get ignored.) When somebody files a (non)bug report like this though, it always seems to gets closed out very quickly with an answer and a reprimand to use the users list. The bug reporter gets exactly what they want - a quick answer. They can completley ignore the reprimand if they want. Now maybe this isn't a problem to anybody and it certainly doesn't bother me, I just thought I would bring it up based on what I've seen in the few months I've been part of the struts community. Of course, if this does bother people (especially if those people are committers) we need a solution. The only one I can think of is to stop rewarding the behavior - when somebody posts a question to bugzilla, it gets shut down quickly, but with no answer, just a pointer to the mailing list. (Whoever closed it down can also be sure to watch for the question on the user list and answer it so as not to piss people off...) Again, sorry if I am raising a non-issue, I just thought I would mention it. Matt, there are several big picture reasons that questions (as opposed to bug reports) should be raised on the user mailing list. * Issue tracking systems do not make it particularly easy to have a conversation and explore possibilities, particularly compared to how you can interleave conversational elements in responses to mailing list messages. * The audience of people available to answer your question is much larger than the audience of people who read bug reports. * The audience of people on the user mailing list probably has more experience *using* Struts than the developers do; they are much more likely to have run into something similar and figured out what to do. * When an answer is given on the mailing list, it is archived in many locations that provide powerful searching capabilities. The number of people who search mailing list archives before asking the same question again (while not as large as user list subscribers might prefer :-) is orders of magnitude larger than the number of people who would ever search the bug tracking system's archives. If you expect to actually get your questions answered, then, the user mailing list is the best place. However, if you expect to *always* get an answer, in a timely manner, then I'm afraid your expectations are never going to be met (no matter what approach you take for asking them) -- the people who answer questions (as well as create Struts) are all volunteers. Matt Bathje Craig McClanahan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorActionForm.java:115)
Sorry, I must have been REALLY unclear here - I am not saying I expect/want people (or myself in particular) to ask questions on bugzilla and get a quick answer - just the opposite in fact. I totally understand and agree with all the reasons you mention for asking on the user list, and understood them before bringing this (non?)issue up. I have never myself asked a question on bugzilla that wasn't related to a bug or enhancement, and never plan to! What I am saying is that when people do ask questions on bugzilla, the questions are almost always answered as they are closed out. Also (in general) when somebody answers and closes the bug, it is within a few hours. Sometimes responses on the user list aren't so quick, or they never come, which can be discouraging. These discouraged people may see bugzilla as a quick way to get what should be a user-list question answered, because the commiters and other people that watch bugzilla tend to answer the questions even if they aren't bugs. Now - like I said, if it doesn't bother anybody that questions routinely get asked and answered in bugzilla then this isn't an issue, and sorry for bringing it up. If people are bothered by it, then I was offering one possible solution. Hopefully I've made myself more clear about this. Matt Bathje - Original Message - From: Craig McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Developers List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 12:28 PM Subject: Re: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorAc tionForm.java:115) On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:16:51 -0500, Matt Bathje [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Additional Comments From [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004-07-28 15:57 --- P.S. Rather than raising a *bug* report against Struts could you please post problems like this to the user list first. Raising *Bugs* is not the best way to get help - asking questions on the user list is. Thanks This is going to sound bad maybe - but from some peoples perspective, filing a bug report IS the best way to get help. Some questions to the users mailing list go unanswered (even something simple like this may get ignored.) When somebody files a (non)bug report like this though, it always seems to gets closed out very quickly with an answer and a reprimand to use the users list. The bug reporter gets exactly what they want - a quick answer. They can completley ignore the reprimand if they want. Now maybe this isn't a problem to anybody and it certainly doesn't bother me, I just thought I would bring it up based on what I've seen in the few months I've been part of the struts community. Of course, if this does bother people (especially if those people are committers) we need a solution. The only one I can think of is to stop rewarding the behavior - when somebody posts a question to bugzilla, it gets shut down quickly, but with no answer, just a pointer to the mailing list. (Whoever closed it down can also be sure to watch for the question on the user list and answer it so as not to piss people off...) Again, sorry if I am raising a non-issue, I just thought I would mention it. Matt, there are several big picture reasons that questions (as opposed to bug reports) should be raised on the user mailing list. * Issue tracking systems do not make it particularly easy to have a conversation and explore possibilities, particularly compared to how you can interleave conversational elements in responses to mailing list messages. * The audience of people available to answer your question is much larger than the audience of people who read bug reports. * The audience of people on the user mailing list probably has more experience *using* Struts than the developers do; they are much more likely to have run into something similar and figured out what to do. * When an answer is given on the mailing list, it is archived in many locations that provide powerful searching capabilities. The number of people who search mailing list archives before asking the same question again (while not as large as user list subscribers might prefer :-) is orders of magnitude larger than the number of people who would ever search the bug tracking system's archives. If you expect to actually get your questions answered, then, the user mailing list is the best place. However, if you expect to *always* get an answer, in a timely manner, then I'm afraid your expectations are never going to be met (no matter what approach you take for asking them) -- the people who answer questions (as well as create Struts) are all volunteers. Matt Bathje Craig McClanahan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorActionForm.java:115)
Maybe the reprimand should be saved for developers who actually reply to user questions on a bug report or in this list. Once a user gets a response from one of these channels, there is a chance that they'll come back, especially if they don't get an answer on the user list. And once an answer appears after a reprimand, then the effectiveness of reprimands is diluted for everybody. Here's my recommendation: Set these ground rules for responding to user questions: * Direct users to a web page with Craig's (polite) words of wisdom on the topic * Do not provide any answers * Provide additional info only if it is of value to the developer community This saves the developers from having to post a reprimand, which wastes developers time and, worse yet, alienates potential users. Robert Michel Craig McClanahan wrote: On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:16:51 -0500, Matt Bathje [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Additional Comments From [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004-07-28 15:57 --- P.S. Rather than raising a *bug* report against Struts could you please post problems like this to the user list first. Raising *Bugs* is not the best way to get help - asking questions on the user list is. Thanks This is going to sound bad maybe - but from some peoples perspective, filing a bug report IS the best way to get help. Some questions to the users mailing list go unanswered (even something simple like this may get ignored.) When somebody files a (non)bug report like this though, it always seems to gets closed out very quickly with an answer and a reprimand to use the users list. The bug reporter gets exactly what they want - a quick answer. They can completley ignore the reprimand if they want. Now maybe this isn't a problem to anybody and it certainly doesn't bother me, I just thought I would bring it up based on what I've seen in the few months I've been part of the struts community. Of course, if this does bother people (especially if those people are committers) we need a solution. The only one I can think of is to stop rewarding the behavior - when somebody posts a question to bugzilla, it gets shut down quickly, but with no answer, just a pointer to the mailing list. (Whoever closed it down can also be sure to watch for the question on the user list and answer it so as not to piss people off...) Again, sorry if I am raising a non-issue, I just thought I would mention it. Matt, there are several big picture reasons that questions (as opposed to bug reports) should be raised on the user mailing list. * Issue tracking systems do not make it particularly easy to have a conversation and explore possibilities, particularly compared to how you can interleave conversational elements in responses to mailing list messages. * The audience of people available to answer your question is much larger than the audience of people who read bug reports. * The audience of people on the user mailing list probably has more experience *using* Struts than the developers do; they are much more likely to have run into something similar and figured out what to do. * When an answer is given on the mailing list, it is archived in many locations that provide powerful searching capabilities. The number of people who search mailing list archives before asking the same question again (while not as large as user list subscribers might prefer :-) is orders of magnitude larger than the number of people who would ever search the bug tracking system's archives. If you expect to actually get your questions answered, then, the user mailing list is the best place. However, if you expect to *always* get an answer, in a timely manner, then I'm afraid your expectations are never going to be met (no matter what approach you take for asking them) -- the people who answer questions (as well as create Struts) are all volunteers. Matt Bathje Craig McClanahan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorActionForm.java:115)
I don't see this as a big issue and my intention was more of polite request rather than reprimand - although it may not have come accross that way. Seems to me that in a large and (hopefully) expanding community there are always going to be new people that don't know the conventions that this community operates under. My impression is that once people have been asked to use the user list rather than bugzilla they do (and querying INVALID tickets in bugzilla seems to back this up). Niall P.S. I'm -1 on Robert Michel's suggestion to give me a good flogging for including an answer when closing the bugzilla ticket :-) - Original Message - From: Matt Bathje [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Developers List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 6:50 PM Subject: Re: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorAc tionForm.java:115) Sorry, I must have been REALLY unclear here - I am not saying I expect/want people (or myself in particular) to ask questions on bugzilla and get a quick answer - just the opposite in fact. I totally understand and agree with all the reasons you mention for asking on the user list, and understood them before bringing this (non?)issue up. I have never myself asked a question on bugzilla that wasn't related to a bug or enhancement, and never plan to! What I am saying is that when people do ask questions on bugzilla, the questions are almost always answered as they are closed out. Also (in general) when somebody answers and closes the bug, it is within a few hours. Sometimes responses on the user list aren't so quick, or they never come, which can be discouraging. These discouraged people may see bugzilla as a quick way to get what should be a user-list question answered, because the commiters and other people that watch bugzilla tend to answer the questions even if they aren't bugs. Now - like I said, if it doesn't bother anybody that questions routinely get asked and answered in bugzilla then this isn't an issue, and sorry for bringing it up. If people are bothered by it, then I was offering one possible solution. Hopefully I've made myself more clear about this. Matt Bathje - Original Message - From: Craig McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Developers List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 12:28 PM Subject: Re: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorAc tionForm.java:115) On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:16:51 -0500, Matt Bathje [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Additional Comments From [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2004-07-28 15:57 --- P.S. Rather than raising a *bug* report against Struts could you please post problems like this to the user list first. Raising *Bugs* is not the best way to get help - asking questions on the user list is. Thanks This is going to sound bad maybe - but from some peoples perspective, filing a bug report IS the best way to get help. Some questions to the users mailing list go unanswered (even something simple like this may get ignored.) When somebody files a (non)bug report like this though, it always seems to gets closed out very quickly with an answer and a reprimand to use the users list. The bug reporter gets exactly what they want - a quick answer. They can completley ignore the reprimand if they want. Now maybe this isn't a problem to anybody and it certainly doesn't bother me, I just thought I would bring it up based on what I've seen in the few months I've been part of the struts community. Of course, if this does bother people (especially if those people are committers) we need a solution. The only one I can think of is to stop rewarding the behavior - when somebody posts a question to bugzilla, it gets shut down quickly, but with no answer, just a pointer to the mailing list. (Whoever closed it down can also be sure to watch for the question on the user list and answer it so as not to piss people off...) Again, sorry if I am raising a non-issue, I just thought I would mention it. Matt, there are several big picture reasons that questions (as opposed to bug reports) should be raised on the user mailing list. * Issue tracking systems do not make it particularly easy to have a conversation and explore possibilities, particularly compared to how you can interleave conversational elements in responses to mailing list messages. * The audience of people available to answer your question is much larger than the audience of people who read bug reports. * The audience of people on the user mailing list probably has more experience *using* Struts than the developers do; they are much more likely to have run into something similar and figured out what to do. * When an answer is given on the
Re: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 30364] - org.apache.struts.validator.DynaValidatorActionForm.validate(DynaValidatorActionForm.java:115)
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:49:38 +0100, Niall Pemberton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see this as a big issue and my intention was more of polite request rather than reprimand - although it may not have come accross that way. Seems to me that in a large and (hopefully) expanding community there are always going to be new people that don't know the conventions that this community operates under. My impression is that once people have been asked to use the user list rather than bugzilla they do (and querying INVALID tickets in bugzilla seems to back this up). Niall P.S. I'm -1 on Robert Michel's suggestion to give me a good flogging for including an answer when closing the bugzilla ticket :-) Niall, You're absolutely corect ... that's why I (politely) ranted at people who post questions in bug reports instead of at you for answering the question there. Of course, getting flogged for being too helpful has gotta mean you are doing *something* right :-). The friendliness and helpfulness of the Struts community in general is something I am very proud of, and I brag about it every chance I get. I've seen way too many open source projects where the developers sneer at their users. Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
