Clarifications on JSF Vs Struts-Shale
Hi! while i was going through Struts Shale framework. I came up with few questions. We can go for directly to JSF instead of Struts-JSF using Struts-Shale framework it seems this approach is round around. By the way JSF is also a kind of framwork similar to Struts 1.x. Why need two frameworks? We can achieve same with JSF. I think it will be costly process maintaining two frameworks. plz, clarify my question. -Thanks Jeevan - Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
Re: Clarifications on JSF Vs Struts-Shale
On 11/29/05, Kade Jeevan Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! while i was going through Struts Shale framework. I came up with few questions. We can go for directly to JSF instead of Struts-JSF using Struts-Shale framework it seems this approach is round around. By the way JSF is also a kind of framwork similar to Struts 1.x. Why need two frameworks? We can achieve same with JSF. I think it will be costly process maintaining two frameworks. Costly for who? If you are going to use JSF anyway, and if you're starting on a new project, and if you have sufficient time to build up your expertise (if it is lacking) ... by all means start with Shale. If, on the other hand you have *existing* Struts based applications and you want to leverage JSF capabilities, use the integration library. That can also apply to teams that have existing Struts expertise and a short deadline (without enough time to learn a new technology). It is perfectly reasonable to provide different frameworks for different requirements -- not everyone has the same needs, or the same schedule pressures, or the same existing expertise. Fortunately, open source projects are not subject to the same economic constraints that closed source projects are -- given sufficient developers willing to work on both (which Struts is blessed with), there's no costly process to the Struts community supporting both approaches. For your own projects, pick the technologies that work best for you. Best is always relative to the particular situation, though ... in those cases, isn't it nice to have multiple alternatives from a source you can trust? plz, clarify my question. -Thanks Jeevan Craig
Re: JSF vs. Struts
I consider the JSF-is-hopeless megaphone to be hype also. :) I really do think JSF has great potential, especially as tools vendors latch onto it. What I object to is the JSF-is-here-Struts-is-dead hype. My personal belief is that JSF itself -- the technology that was described in David's article -- will succeed mainly in the view tier. In my opinion, it is not the best option for a comprehensive app framework... but then again, a benefit of it being consummately pluggable is that it can integrate with other technologies. Including Struts or other controller frameworks. ...Classic and Shale can be healthier together than apart. +1 BTW, there's been some blurring of the distinction between Shale and JSF (a distinction which does exist for now ;) ). I'm talking about JSF alone here, as was the Top Ten Reasons... article. I think that Shale, while it can't be trumpeted as a Standard the way JSF is, adds enormous value to JSF. Rich p.s. In some ways, JSF is a direct competitor to ASPX in ASP.NET, which is still figuring out the whole navigational-controller thing. In the rare event that I imagine myself to be on a side, in a battle, I consider myself to be on the side that contains JSF+Struts+Shale, looking across the field at ASP.NET. :) And even then, I'm only on that side because I want the more community-driven ecosystem to prevail. Ted Husted wrote: On 8/15/05, Rich Feit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In general, I agree with the sentiment that there's a lot of hype in this arena, and not all of it is easily backed up. But the Struts community has always been a bit hype-adverse, no? Once upon a time, people were saying the same sort of things about custom tags that people now say about JSF. It's too new, it's too fat, scriplets are faster. We already know how to use scriptlets, why fuss with tags? And, all of those statements were true. In the beginning, custom tags were slower than scriplets. Five years ago, custom tag compilers were naive and generated sad, bloated code. But, many of us saw the potential in custom tags, and we bit the bullet and took the hit. Sure, the code was sad, but in the greater scheme of things, the tags are lost in the rounding, and such things are easily fixed by improving the compiler. The long-term architectural gains custom tags provided, many of us believed, were worth the short-term code bloat. Compilers did improve, and all the work we did with custom tag suddenly became more valuable. Custom tags were a pardigm shift for many teams then, and components are a paradigm shift for many teams today. From experience, many of us know that custom tags provide many benefits in terms of fast deployment and easy maintenance. And, from experience, many of us already know that components provide benefits in terms of fast deployment. Over time, will components also provide the benefits of easy maintenance? Hmmm, probably. Check back in 2010, and then we'll know for sure :) In the meantime, those of us interested in Struts Classic will continue to work on Struts Classic, and those of us interested in Struts Shale can spend our volunteer hours there. Like two flowers planted in the same bed, Classic and Shale can be healthier together than apart. Synergistically, roots can intertwine and reinforce each other, making two together stronger than either apart. -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSF vs. Struts
On 8/22/05, Rich Feit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: p.s. In some ways, JSF is a direct competitor to ASPX in ASP.NET, which is still figuring out the whole navigational-controller thing. In the rare event that I imagine myself to be on a side, in a battle, I consider myself to be on the side that contains JSF+Struts+Shale, looking across the field at ASP.NET. :) And even then, I'm only on that side because I want the more community-driven ecosystem to prevail. Yep, in much that same way that JSP was a direct corollary to ASP Classic. I'm studying JSF and working in ASPX full time now. From what I can see, JSF does do ASPX one-better in some places. Out of the box, ASPX is still missing a few critical pieces, as is JSF. On the .NET side, Spring.Web is starting to patch those hole (thanks guys!), and on the JSF side, Shale is trying to do the same. But, none of this is news. We've always said that platforms like ASPX and JSF are never complete out of the box, no more than JSP or ASP were. Back in 2000, the Struts community stepped up and provided the missing pieces for JSP, and now we're doing the same thing for JSF. But not because we're trying to fill some marketing niche. We need this stuff to ship our own applications, and we know from experience that we get better stuff when we share :) --Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSF vs. Struts
Ted Husted wrote: On 8/22/05, Rich Feit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: p.s. In some ways, JSF is a direct competitor to ASPX in ASP.NET, which is still figuring out the whole navigational-controller thing. In the rare event that I imagine myself to be on a side, in a battle, I consider myself to be on the side that contains JSF+Struts+Shale, looking across the field at ASP.NET. :) And even then, I'm only on that side because I want the more community-driven ecosystem to prevail. Yep, in much that same way that JSP was a direct corollary to ASP Classic. I'm studying JSF and working in ASPX full time now. From what I can see, JSF does do ASPX one-better in some places. Out of the box, ASPX is still missing a few critical pieces, as is JSF. On the .NET side, Spring.Web is starting to patch those hole (thanks guys!), and on the JSF side, Shale is trying to do the same. But, none of this is news. We've always said that platforms like ASPX and JSF are never complete out of the box, no more than JSP or ASP were. Back in 2000, the Struts community stepped up and provided the missing pieces for JSP, and now we're doing the same thing for JSF. But not because we're trying to fill some marketing niche. We need this stuff to ship our own applications, and we know from experience that we get better stuff when we share :) Totally. This is basically the opposite of hype-driven-development. :D Rich --Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSF vs. Struts
Ted Husted wrote: Once upon a time, people were saying the same sort of things about custom tags that people now say about JSF. It's too new, it's too fat, scriplets are faster. I've started coming arround, due to Faclets and some other minor improvments (if I was ever to do an HTML site again, doubtfull). But Faclets look ok to me. https://facelets.dev.java.net/source/browse/facelets/src/test/com/sun/facelets/greeting.xhtml?rev=1.1view=markup Like two flowers planted in the same bed, Classic and Shale can be healthier together than apart. Synergistically, roots can intertwine and reinforce each other, making two together stronger than either apart. And pick each others brain and cross polinate for a superior gene. .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSF vs. Struts
On 8/15/05, Rich Feit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In general, I agree with the sentiment that there's a lot of hype in this arena, and not all of it is easily backed up. But the Struts community has always been a bit hype-adverse, no? Once upon a time, people were saying the same sort of things about custom tags that people now say about JSF. It's too new, it's too fat, scriplets are faster. We already know how to use scriptlets, why fuss with tags? And, all of those statements were true. In the beginning, custom tags were slower than scriplets. Five years ago, custom tag compilers were naive and generated sad, bloated code. But, many of us saw the potential in custom tags, and we bit the bullet and took the hit. Sure, the code was sad, but in the greater scheme of things, the tags are lost in the rounding, and such things are easily fixed by improving the compiler. The long-term architectural gains custom tags provided, many of us believed, were worth the short-term code bloat. Compilers did improve, and all the work we did with custom tag suddenly became more valuable. Custom tags were a pardigm shift for many teams then, and components are a paradigm shift for many teams today. From experience, many of us know that custom tags provide many benefits in terms of fast deployment and easy maintenance. And, from experience, many of us already know that components provide benefits in terms of fast deployment. Over time, will components also provide the benefits of easy maintenance? Hmmm, probably. Check back in 2010, and then we'll know for sure :) In the meantime, those of us interested in Struts Classic will continue to work on Struts Classic, and those of us interested in Struts Shale can spend our volunteer hours there. Like two flowers planted in the same bed, Classic and Shale can be healthier together than apart. Synergistically, roots can intertwine and reinforce each other, making two together stronger than either apart. -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSF vs. Struts
No On 8/15/05, Rich Feit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm... I'm just about to post a reply to that entry. Basically, I feel that although JSF itself can be great view-tier technology, it isn't really a full replacement for Struts. JSF+Shale *is* a replacement for Struts, but I think that's a point which is often lost. An interesting thing about Struts Ti is that it would treat JSF as a first-class view tier without depending on it for anything else. That may or may not turn out to be important, but it does keep JSF as a peer to other view technologies, rather than at the core. I don't think JSF and Struts are incompatible, as long as JSF is being used as a (powerful) view. Intra-page event handling works fine with something like Struts. When the other more general-framework-type functionality is used, there's a conflict. In general, I agree with the sentiment that there's a lot of hype in this arena, and not all of it is easily backed up. But the Struts community has always been a bit hype-adverse, no? Rich Matthias Wessendorf wrote: FYI http://jroller.com/page/dgeary -Original Message- From: Frank W. Zammetti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 8:44 AM To: Struts Developers List Subject: Re: JSF vs. Struts I personally think all this exploration is a Very Good Thing(tm). There are a vast number of different ideas out there as to how a modern application framework should be built. Mistakes have been made over the years, lessons have been learned, but we don't all agree on what the mistakes were or what the lessons are! If that sounds bad to anyone, it isn't. It's quite the opposite and is the only way healthy debate and ultimately progress is made. At some point we're going to have to all weed out the options that don't quite measure up, and that will happen via simple market forces (the market in this case being mostly developer mind share), but I don't think that time is now, so the more experimentation, the better. I for one am not willing to declare one thing better than another... I regret having done that in the past prematurely, and certainly not in a manner I'm especially proud of. So, I'm certainly not going to make the same mistake twice. I'm still not sold on JSF, that much has not changed. I do however think there is some decent ideas underpinning it, which is also the case for many of the other frameworks and approaches out there, so declaring JSF or anything else for that matter a failure now is probably not fair either. I do think Jack's point about JSF being around for a while and not really setting the world on fire is fair, although that doesn't mean it has failed, just that it's going a little slower than hoped. My take on JSF is simply this: we'll see. I'm not sold yet, but I'm not willing to say I never will be. As for Shale, I'm not sure I understand why Rod or anyone says that Struts and JSF are not compatible... if the thinking is that the result will be quite a bit different from Struts as we know it today, then I suppose he might be right. That to me doesn't make them incompatible though. From what I have seen of JSF, and what I know of Struts, I can conceive of ways they could be fit together. I haven't had a chance to get into Shale yet, but I have no doubt many of those ideas, and many more I haven't thought of, are present. Why they are incompatible I just don't get, and I don't care who is making the claim, no matter how well-respected they are, I need to see some real, concrete examples before I'm convinced. Struts Ti looks pretty interesting... many of the ideas that were described here a few days ago were quite good in my mind. Should it be the future of Struts? I don't know yet, and I'm not even sure those developing it would be willing to say that at this juncture. It's another possible path, another exploration of possibilities, and that's good. One thing is for sure: most of us look back on the way we developed applications just five years ago and wonder why we ever did things that way. I have absolutely no doubt we'll be doing the same thing in another five years. I too would like to see less hype sometimes, but promoting ones' ideas is human nature. If you think you have a compelling answer, or even the One True Answer, you tell people about it and try and convince them. That's hype. It may not always be helpful, but it's perfectly natural :) Frank Dakota Jack wrote: I have to agree personally with Rod Johnson J2EE without EJBs, Spring framework architect, etc., when he says that Shale is merely a stopgap and that Struts as we know it is simply incompatible with JSF. That seems fairly obvious and I find it hard to believe that anyone familiar with the issues would think any differently. I personally would not hire anyone would thought
Re: JSF vs. Struts
Hmm... I'm just about to post a reply to that entry. Basically, I feel that although JSF itself can be great view-tier technology, it isn't really a full replacement for Struts. JSF+Shale *is* a replacement for Struts, but I think that's a point which is often lost. An interesting thing about Struts Ti is that it would treat JSF as a first-class view tier without depending on it for anything else. That may or may not turn out to be important, but it does keep JSF as a peer to other view technologies, rather than at the core. I don't think JSF and Struts are incompatible, as long as JSF is being used as a (powerful) view. Intra-page event handling works fine with something like Struts. When the other more general-framework-type functionality is used, there's a conflict. In general, I agree with the sentiment that there's a lot of hype in this arena, and not all of it is easily backed up. But the Struts community has always been a bit hype-adverse, no? Rich Matthias Wessendorf wrote: FYI http://jroller.com/page/dgeary -Original Message- From: Frank W. Zammetti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 8:44 AM To: Struts Developers List Subject: Re: JSF vs. Struts I personally think all this exploration is a Very Good Thing(tm). There are a vast number of different ideas out there as to how a modern application framework should be built. Mistakes have been made over the years, lessons have been learned, but we don't all agree on what the mistakes were or what the lessons are! If that sounds bad to anyone, it isn't. It's quite the opposite and is the only way healthy debate and ultimately progress is made. At some point we're going to have to all weed out the options that don't quite measure up, and that will happen via simple market forces (the market in this case being mostly developer mind share), but I don't think that time is now, so the more experimentation, the better. I for one am not willing to declare one thing better than another... I regret having done that in the past prematurely, and certainly not in a manner I'm especially proud of. So, I'm certainly not going to make the same mistake twice. I'm still not sold on JSF, that much has not changed. I do however think there is some decent ideas underpinning it, which is also the case for many of the other frameworks and approaches out there, so declaring JSF or anything else for that matter a failure now is probably not fair either. I do think Jack's point about JSF being around for a while and not really setting the world on fire is fair, although that doesn't mean it has failed, just that it's going a little slower than hoped. My take on JSF is simply this: we'll see. I'm not sold yet, but I'm not willing to say I never will be. As for Shale, I'm not sure I understand why Rod or anyone says that Struts and JSF are not compatible... if the thinking is that the result will be quite a bit different from Struts as we know it today, then I suppose he might be right. That to me doesn't make them incompatible though. From what I have seen of JSF, and what I know of Struts, I can conceive of ways they could be fit together. I haven't had a chance to get into Shale yet, but I have no doubt many of those ideas, and many more I haven't thought of, are present. Why they are incompatible I just don't get, and I don't care who is making the claim, no matter how well-respected they are, I need to see some real, concrete examples before I'm convinced. Struts Ti looks pretty interesting... many of the ideas that were described here a few days ago were quite good in my mind. Should it be the future of Struts? I don't know yet, and I'm not even sure those developing it would be willing to say that at this juncture. It's another possible path, another exploration of possibilities, and that's good. One thing is for sure: most of us look back on the way we developed applications just five years ago and wonder why we ever did things that way. I have absolutely no doubt we'll be doing the same thing in another five years. I too would like to see less hype sometimes, but promoting ones' ideas is human nature. If you think you have a compelling answer, or even the One True Answer, you tell people about it and try and convince them. That's hype. It may not always be helpful, but it's perfectly natural :) Frank Dakota Jack wrote: I have to agree personally with Rod Johnson J2EE without EJBs, Spring framework architect, etc., when he says that Shale is merely a stopgap and that Struts as we know it is simply incompatible with JSF. That seems fairly obvious and I find it hard to believe that anyone familiar with the issues would think any differently. I personally would not hire anyone would thought differently, whether they like JSF or not. JSF is not new. JSF
Re: JSF vs. Struts
way when it comes to web development. If a particular project or approach interests you, join in. Personally, I think shale will be a great success building on the strong JSF framework, and if it meets your needs, give it a shot. Just as not every web application is the same, neither is their needs for a framework. Don On 8/10/05, James Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those of you on the Struts Developers list. Would you like to comment on this? -- James Mitchell Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist Consulting / Mentoring / Freelance EdgeTech, Inc. http://www.edgetechservices.net/ 678.910.8017 AIM: jmitchtx MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: jmitchtx - Original Message - From: Matthias Wessendorf [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MyFaces Discussion users@myfaces.apache.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:29 AM Subject: Re: JSF vs. Struts currently the are *forking* :) Struts Ti see here: http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/dev@struts.apache.org/1854691.html and Shale (aka Struts 2.0) is build on top of JSF. It is a framework for JSF ... On 8/10/05, Werner Punz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doing both, I only can recommend, if you can omit struts and go directly for MyFaces (not the JSF RI, it lacks severely) Struts feels somewhat dated in many areas compared to JSF. Werner Aleksei Valikov wrote: Hi. Could anyone post a good link on Struts vs. JSF comparison? I have a meeting in 40 minutes where I need to push through my decision on using JSF for a large project (GIS/Map Viewers). Seems like I can argument my decision, but some additional support material would be helpful. Thanks in advance. Bye. /lexi -- Matthias Wessendorf - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: JSF vs. Struts
FYI http://jroller.com/page/dgeary -Original Message- From: Frank W. Zammetti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 8:44 AM To: Struts Developers List Subject: Re: JSF vs. Struts I personally think all this exploration is a Very Good Thing(tm). There are a vast number of different ideas out there as to how a modern application framework should be built. Mistakes have been made over the years, lessons have been learned, but we don't all agree on what the mistakes were or what the lessons are! If that sounds bad to anyone, it isn't. It's quite the opposite and is the only way healthy debate and ultimately progress is made. At some point we're going to have to all weed out the options that don't quite measure up, and that will happen via simple market forces (the market in this case being mostly developer mind share), but I don't think that time is now, so the more experimentation, the better. I for one am not willing to declare one thing better than another... I regret having done that in the past prematurely, and certainly not in a manner I'm especially proud of. So, I'm certainly not going to make the same mistake twice. I'm still not sold on JSF, that much has not changed. I do however think there is some decent ideas underpinning it, which is also the case for many of the other frameworks and approaches out there, so declaring JSF or anything else for that matter a failure now is probably not fair either. I do think Jack's point about JSF being around for a while and not really setting the world on fire is fair, although that doesn't mean it has failed, just that it's going a little slower than hoped. My take on JSF is simply this: we'll see. I'm not sold yet, but I'm not willing to say I never will be. As for Shale, I'm not sure I understand why Rod or anyone says that Struts and JSF are not compatible... if the thinking is that the result will be quite a bit different from Struts as we know it today, then I suppose he might be right. That to me doesn't make them incompatible though. From what I have seen of JSF, and what I know of Struts, I can conceive of ways they could be fit together. I haven't had a chance to get into Shale yet, but I have no doubt many of those ideas, and many more I haven't thought of, are present. Why they are incompatible I just don't get, and I don't care who is making the claim, no matter how well-respected they are, I need to see some real, concrete examples before I'm convinced. Struts Ti looks pretty interesting... many of the ideas that were described here a few days ago were quite good in my mind. Should it be the future of Struts? I don't know yet, and I'm not even sure those developing it would be willing to say that at this juncture. It's another possible path, another exploration of possibilities, and that's good. One thing is for sure: most of us look back on the way we developed applications just five years ago and wonder why we ever did things that way. I have absolutely no doubt we'll be doing the same thing in another five years. I too would like to see less hype sometimes, but promoting ones' ideas is human nature. If you think you have a compelling answer, or even the One True Answer, you tell people about it and try and convince them. That's hype. It may not always be helpful, but it's perfectly natural :) Frank Dakota Jack wrote: I have to agree personally with Rod Johnson J2EE without EJBs, Spring framework architect, etc., when he says that Shale is merely a stopgap and that Struts as we know it is simply incompatible with JSF. That seems fairly obvious and I find it hard to believe that anyone familiar with the issues would think any differently. I personally would not hire anyone would thought differently, whether they like JSF or not. JSF is not new. JSF has been around forever, so it cannot be the cutting edge. If it is cutting, it is the cutting middle and almost the cutting tailend. The JSF idea has been around even longer with all sorts of frameworks which I personally think do it better. Indeed, I think it fair to say that one of the main architects of the JSF framework has said as much but has to feed his family. Certainly, if you like JSF, knock yourself out. Love it to death. I don't care. I only care about giving people that ask a fair evaluation of the product without the hype. On 8/10/05, Don Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quick correction: Struts is _not_ forking in any sense of the word. Struts Ti is a sandbox project several of us are working on as an exploration of a simplified framework more like Ruby on Rails than JSF. It has not been accepted as a Struts subproject, just as Shale has not been accepted as Struts 2.0. The Struts project
Re: JSF vs. Struts
personally would not hire anyone would thought differently, whether they like JSF or not. JSF is not new. JSF has been around forever, so it cannot be the cutting edge. If it is cutting, it is the cutting middle and almost the cutting tailend. The JSF idea has been around even longer with all sorts of frameworks which I personally think do it better. Indeed, I think it fair to say that one of the main architects of the JSF framework has said as much but has to feed his family. Certainly, if you like JSF, knock yourself out. Love it to death. I don't care. I only care about giving people that ask a fair evaluation of the product without the hype. On 8/10/05, Don Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quick correction: Struts is _not_ forking in any sense of the word. Struts Ti is a sandbox project several of us are working on as an exploration of a simplified framework more like Ruby on Rails than JSF. It has not been accepted as a Struts subproject, just as Shale has not been accepted as Struts 2.0. The Struts project is currently in, what I would call, a state of exploration. In addition to Shale and Ti, there are other projects like Struts Overdrive, Struts Flow, etc., which are also exploring different aspects of web development. Of course, there will be Struts classic still for a long time to come which will continue to forego active development. I think Struts is realizing there is no one way when it comes to web development. If a particular project or approach interests you, join in. Personally, I think shale will be a great success building on the strong JSF framework, and if it meets your needs, give it a shot. Just as not every web application is the same, neither is their needs for a framework. Don On 8/10/05, James Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those of you on the Struts Developers list. Would you like to comment on this? -- James Mitchell Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist Consulting / Mentoring / Freelance EdgeTech, Inc. http://www.edgetechservices.net/ 678.910.8017 AIM: jmitchtx MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: jmitchtx - Original Message - From: Matthias Wessendorf [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MyFaces Discussion users@myfaces.apache.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:29 AM Subject: Re: JSF vs. Struts currently the are *forking* :) Struts Ti see here: http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/dev@struts.apache.org/1854691.html and Shale (aka Struts 2.0) is build on top of JSF. It is a framework for JSF ... On 8/10/05, Werner Punz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doing both, I only can recommend, if you can omit struts and go directly for MyFaces (not the JSF RI, it lacks severely) Struts feels somewhat dated in many areas compared to JSF. Werner Aleksei Valikov wrote: Hi. Could anyone post a good link on Struts vs. JSF comparison? I have a meeting in 40 minutes where I need to push through my decision on using JSF for a large project (GIS/Map Viewers). Seems like I can argument my decision, but some additional support material would be helpful. Thanks in advance. Bye. /lexi -- Matthias Wessendorf - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSF vs. Struts
Those of you on the Struts Developers list. Would you like to comment on this? -- James Mitchell Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist Consulting / Mentoring / Freelance EdgeTech, Inc. http://www.edgetechservices.net/ 678.910.8017 AIM: jmitchtx MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: jmitchtx - Original Message - From: Matthias Wessendorf [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MyFaces Discussion users@myfaces.apache.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:29 AM Subject: Re: JSF vs. Struts currently the are *forking* :) Struts Ti see here: http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/dev@struts.apache.org/1854691.html and Shale (aka Struts 2.0) is build on top of JSF. It is a framework for JSF ... On 8/10/05, Werner Punz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doing both, I only can recommend, if you can omit struts and go directly for MyFaces (not the JSF RI, it lacks severely) Struts feels somewhat dated in many areas compared to JSF. Werner Aleksei Valikov wrote: Hi. Could anyone post a good link on Struts vs. JSF comparison? I have a meeting in 40 minutes where I need to push through my decision on using JSF for a large project (GIS/Map Viewers). Seems like I can argument my decision, but some additional support material would be helpful. Thanks in advance. Bye. /lexi -- Matthias Wessendorf - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSF vs. Struts
Quick correction: Struts is _not_ forking in any sense of the word. Struts Ti is a sandbox project several of us are working on as an exploration of a simplified framework more like Ruby on Rails than JSF. It has not been accepted as a Struts subproject, just as Shale has not been accepted as Struts 2.0. The Struts project is currently in, what I would call, a state of exploration. In addition to Shale and Ti, there are other projects like Struts Overdrive, Struts Flow, etc., which are also exploring different aspects of web development. Of course, there will be Struts classic still for a long time to come which will continue to forego active development. I think Struts is realizing there is no one way when it comes to web development. If a particular project or approach interests you, join in. Personally, I think shale will be a great success building on the strong JSF framework, and if it meets your needs, give it a shot. Just as not every web application is the same, neither is their needs for a framework. Don On 8/10/05, James Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those of you on the Struts Developers list. Would you like to comment on this? -- James Mitchell Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist Consulting / Mentoring / Freelance EdgeTech, Inc. http://www.edgetechservices.net/ 678.910.8017 AIM: jmitchtx MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: jmitchtx - Original Message - From: Matthias Wessendorf [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MyFaces Discussion users@myfaces.apache.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:29 AM Subject: Re: JSF vs. Struts currently the are *forking* :) Struts Ti see here: http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/dev@struts.apache.org/1854691.html and Shale (aka Struts 2.0) is build on top of JSF. It is a framework for JSF ... On 8/10/05, Werner Punz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doing both, I only can recommend, if you can omit struts and go directly for MyFaces (not the JSF RI, it lacks severely) Struts feels somewhat dated in many areas compared to JSF. Werner Aleksei Valikov wrote: Hi. Could anyone post a good link on Struts vs. JSF comparison? I have a meeting in 40 minutes where I need to push through my decision on using JSF for a large project (GIS/Map Viewers). Seems like I can argument my decision, but some additional support material would be helpful. Thanks in advance. Bye. /lexi -- Matthias Wessendorf - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSF vs. Struts
Don Brown wrote: Of course, there will be Struts classic still for a long time to come which will continue to forego active development. Is that actually what you meant to say Don? Isn't that saying that Struts Classic is in maintenance mode only from here on out? I understand people are exploring different possibilities for the future, and at some point peoples' efforts are going to naturally migrate away from Struts Classic (in all likelihood), but I wouldn't have thought that would be declared now... Frank - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSF vs. Struts
I figured it was something like that :) Would have been a bit of a bombshell to drop matter-of-factly otherwise :) I'm reminded of a scene from Babylon 5 where Londo and Vir are conspiring to kill the emperor and they are talking about after they poison him, depending on how fast the poison acts, he might have time to stumble into his guards and say Londo killed me!... then again, he might be all delirious and yell out KILL LONDO! instead :) So, forgo vs. undergo... not QUITE as big a mistake :) Frank Don Brown wrote: Haha, no I meant undergo, darn it :) Don Frank W. Zammetti wrote: Don Brown wrote: Of course, there will be Struts classic still for a long time to come which will continue to forego active development. Is that actually what you meant to say Don? Isn't that saying that Struts Classic is in maintenance mode only from here on out? I understand people are exploring different possibilities for the future, and at some point peoples' efforts are going to naturally migrate away from Struts Classic (in all likelihood), but I wouldn't have thought that would be declared now... Frank - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: JSF vs Struts
Jacob, perhaps you remember, we mailed on JSF-EL... however, some minutes ago, i mailed your mail to myfaces-develop-list. since it was deep in my incoming-mail-folder... :-) have you checked out MyFaces-CVS-Head yet? so perhaps you can do some performance-issue there too. btw. does yours support portlet? myfaces doesn't - for now - btw. since some days there is tiles-support and so on, with a special, optional TilesViewHandlerImpl.clazz see more on http://sourceforge.net/projects/myfaces regards, Matthias -Original Message- From: James Holmes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:28 PM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: JSF vs Struts The MyFaces open source project is currently becoming an official Apache project through the Apache Incubator. MyFaces has some custom components along with its full implementation of the JSF spec. Perhaps you could contribute to that project?? -James http://www.jamesholmes.com/JavaServerFaces/ -Original Message- From: Hookom, Jacob [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 10:27 AM To: 'Struts Developers List' Subject: RE: JSF vs Struts Would there be any interest in starting an Apache JSF implementation with a component repository for the open source community? I have about 80% of an implementation written... Regards, Jacob -Original Message- From: Craig McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 12:13 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: JSF vs Struts On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:25:13 -0400, Rick Reumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're thinking about using Flash forms for some things. Will they plugin nicely to JSF? Hooking up the output side of that should be a piece of cake ... write some components that render the necessary markup to embed the Flash stuff in the generated page. I'm not familiar with the input side of using Flash for this, but in principle it should still just be a matter of having your component (or renderer) decode() method parse the appropriate request parameters and store the values, just as the standard HTML components do. Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSF vs Struts
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:27:29 -0500, Hookom, Jacob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would there be any interest in starting an Apache JSF implementation with a component repository for the open source community? I have about 80% of an implementation written... That sounds a lot like the MyFaces project http://sourceforge.net/projects/myfaces, which just got accepted in to the Apache incubator. Regards, Jacob Craig -Original Message- From: Craig McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 12:13 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: JSF vs Struts On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:25:13 -0400, Rick Reumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're thinking about using Flash forms for some things. Will they plugin nicely to JSF? Hooking up the output side of that should be a piece of cake ... write some components that render the necessary markup to embed the Flash stuff in the generated page. I'm not familiar with the input side of using Flash for this, but in principle it should still just be a matter of having your component (or renderer) decode() method parse the appropriate request parameters and store the values, just as the standard HTML components do. Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: JSF vs Struts
Hello Jacob, i am working in J2EE technology from last 2 and half years. I would like to join the open spurce and do the develop Please let me know when can we go ahead. Thanks and regards Amanpreet Hookom, Jacob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would there be any interest in starting an Apache JSF implementation with a component repository for the open source community? I have about 80% of an implementation written... Regards, Jacob -Original Message- From: Craig McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 12:13 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: JSF vs Struts On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:25:13 -0400, Rick Reumann wrote: We're thinking about using Flash forms for some things. Will they plugin nicely to JSF? Hooking up the output side of that should be a piece of cake ... write some components that render the necessary markup to embed the Flash stuff in the generated page. I'm not familiar with the input side of using Flash for this, but in principle it should still just be a matter of having your component (or renderer) decode() method parse the appropriate request parameters and store the values, just as the standard HTML components do. Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
