Re: F41 Change Proposal: Fedora Miracle Spin (self-contained)
On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 05:48:46AM GMT, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > There's also the effort of distribuiting and archiving a few > additional gigabytes, putting up the links on the website and browsing > through them, some additional time and and additional step that can > fail during builds… It's actually a lot more than a few GB. We do rawhide builds of everything every night. We keep a bunch of those until they age out... ie, % du -sh /mnt/koji/packages/Fedora-Sway-Live/Rawhide 62G /mnt/koji/packages/Fedora-Sway-Live/Rawhide or all releases/beta/rcs: % du -sh /mnt/koji/packages/Fedora-Sway-Live/ 118G/mnt/koji/packages/Fedora-Sway-Live/ Anyhow, I think if there's an interested community around something making a spin is reasonable. I do think we are also bad about not retiring things that not many people are interested in anymore, and I wish there was a better way to avoid duplication between all the spins. kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: F41 Change Proposal: Fedora Miracle Spin (self-contained)
On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 5:31 AM Peter Robinson wrote:
>
> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 at 12:32, Neal Gompa wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 10:49 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 10:33:51PM -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 3:26 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 04:57:40PM +0100, Aoife Moloney wrote:
> > > > > > Wiki - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/FedoraMiracle
> > > > >
> > > > > > {{package|miracle-wm}} is available in Fedora Linux 40, so it can be
> > > > > > installed on top of something like the existing Sway spin and
> > > > > > configured to reuse much of the tools used there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For Fedora Linux 41, once the spin is produced, people can download
> > > > > > and try the experience intended to be released.
> > > > >
> > > > > I applaud people trying out new window managers and doing stuff with
> > > > > Fedora. But the overhead of creating and distributing a spin is quite
> > > > > high… It seems that the contents of this spin would overlap very
> > > > > strongly with Sway Spin. Would it make sense to combine them and
> > > > > allow users to easily select one or the other? Even during boot, there
> > > > > could be two boot menu entries and we could provide simple
> > > > > instructions
> > > > > to switch between the desktops on an installed system.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Aside from actually being unintuitive and confusing to people to smush
> > > > two spins together like that, the experience will eventually differ
> > > > because different tools will be used.
> > >
> > > What tools?
> > >
> >
> > Well, since it's based on Mir instead of wlroots, some Mir specific
> > tooling may be developed. One of the goals is to have Fedora Miracle
> > as a reference platform for showcasing and developing a community and
> > ecosystem around the Mir compositor library.
> >
> > Two things being discussed upstream are how to support server-side
> > decorations and how to support portals. Both of these are going to be
> > Mir specific and at least the portal stuff will likely conflict with
> > another spin's configuration.
> >
> > Miracle has only very slight compatibility with the Sway/i3 IPC, just
> > barely enough for waybar to function. Most of the Sway tooling isn't
> > going to work on Miracle because they rely on that IPC.
> >
> > > > Also, you overestimate the burden of creating a spin. Aside from
> > > > comps, kickstart definitions, and pungi config being done initially
> > > > (which isn't too high to begin with either), the effort required to
> > > > maintain a spin image is extremely low.
> > >
> > > There's also the effort of distribuiting and archiving a few
> > > additional gigabytes, putting up the links on the website and browsing
> > > through them, some additional time and and additional step that can
> > > fail during builds…
> > >
> > > > A large chunk of our spins are essentially semi-automatic these days,
> > > > and people don't really notice because at the end of the day, it's a
> > > > bundle of things configured together.
> > >
> > > Yes. And my point is that we can come up with a hundred or a thousands
> > > of such bundle definitions, and my question is whether we should
> > > create a separate deliverable for each possible definition.
> > >
> >
> > If a SIG is willing to do it and support it, I don't see why not.
>
> There's also QE efforts required to test it, and how many users will
> it even get, is it worth it if there's a dozen users?
Nonblocking spins *don't* get QA efforts aside from community users
who test it and report issues. Of course the users of the spin would
be encouraged to test and help with the evolution of the spin.
The only variants that get QA attention as a matter of course are
GNOME/Workstation, KDE, Server, Cloud, CoreOS, IoT, the base
containers, and the toolbox container.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
--
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Fedora Miracle Spin (self-contained)
On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 at 12:32, Neal Gompa wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 10:49 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 10:33:51PM -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 3:26 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 04:57:40PM +0100, Aoife Moloney wrote:
> > > > > Wiki - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/FedoraMiracle
> > > >
> > > > > {{package|miracle-wm}} is available in Fedora Linux 40, so it can be
> > > > > installed on top of something like the existing Sway spin and
> > > > > configured to reuse much of the tools used there.
> > > > >
> > > > > For Fedora Linux 41, once the spin is produced, people can download
> > > > > and try the experience intended to be released.
> > > >
> > > > I applaud people trying out new window managers and doing stuff with
> > > > Fedora. But the overhead of creating and distributing a spin is quite
> > > > high… It seems that the contents of this spin would overlap very
> > > > strongly with Sway Spin. Would it make sense to combine them and
> > > > allow users to easily select one or the other? Even during boot, there
> > > > could be two boot menu entries and we could provide simple instructions
> > > > to switch between the desktops on an installed system.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Aside from actually being unintuitive and confusing to people to smush
> > > two spins together like that, the experience will eventually differ
> > > because different tools will be used.
> >
> > What tools?
> >
>
> Well, since it's based on Mir instead of wlroots, some Mir specific
> tooling may be developed. One of the goals is to have Fedora Miracle
> as a reference platform for showcasing and developing a community and
> ecosystem around the Mir compositor library.
>
> Two things being discussed upstream are how to support server-side
> decorations and how to support portals. Both of these are going to be
> Mir specific and at least the portal stuff will likely conflict with
> another spin's configuration.
>
> Miracle has only very slight compatibility with the Sway/i3 IPC, just
> barely enough for waybar to function. Most of the Sway tooling isn't
> going to work on Miracle because they rely on that IPC.
>
> > > Also, you overestimate the burden of creating a spin. Aside from
> > > comps, kickstart definitions, and pungi config being done initially
> > > (which isn't too high to begin with either), the effort required to
> > > maintain a spin image is extremely low.
> >
> > There's also the effort of distribuiting and archiving a few
> > additional gigabytes, putting up the links on the website and browsing
> > through them, some additional time and and additional step that can
> > fail during builds…
> >
> > > A large chunk of our spins are essentially semi-automatic these days,
> > > and people don't really notice because at the end of the day, it's a
> > > bundle of things configured together.
> >
> > Yes. And my point is that we can come up with a hundred or a thousands
> > of such bundle definitions, and my question is whether we should
> > create a separate deliverable for each possible definition.
> >
>
> If a SIG is willing to do it and support it, I don't see why not.
There's also QE efforts required to test it, and how many users will
it even get, is it worth it if there's a dozen users?
--
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Fedora Miracle Spin (self-contained)
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 10:49 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 10:33:51PM -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 3:26 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 04:57:40PM +0100, Aoife Moloney wrote:
> > > > Wiki - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/FedoraMiracle
> > >
> > > > {{package|miracle-wm}} is available in Fedora Linux 40, so it can be
> > > > installed on top of something like the existing Sway spin and
> > > > configured to reuse much of the tools used there.
> > > >
> > > > For Fedora Linux 41, once the spin is produced, people can download
> > > > and try the experience intended to be released.
> > >
> > > I applaud people trying out new window managers and doing stuff with
> > > Fedora. But the overhead of creating and distributing a spin is quite
> > > high… It seems that the contents of this spin would overlap very
> > > strongly with Sway Spin. Would it make sense to combine them and
> > > allow users to easily select one or the other? Even during boot, there
> > > could be two boot menu entries and we could provide simple instructions
> > > to switch between the desktops on an installed system.
> > >
> >
> > Aside from actually being unintuitive and confusing to people to smush
> > two spins together like that, the experience will eventually differ
> > because different tools will be used.
>
> What tools?
>
Well, since it's based on Mir instead of wlroots, some Mir specific
tooling may be developed. One of the goals is to have Fedora Miracle
as a reference platform for showcasing and developing a community and
ecosystem around the Mir compositor library.
Two things being discussed upstream are how to support server-side
decorations and how to support portals. Both of these are going to be
Mir specific and at least the portal stuff will likely conflict with
another spin's configuration.
Miracle has only very slight compatibility with the Sway/i3 IPC, just
barely enough for waybar to function. Most of the Sway tooling isn't
going to work on Miracle because they rely on that IPC.
> > Also, you overestimate the burden of creating a spin. Aside from
> > comps, kickstart definitions, and pungi config being done initially
> > (which isn't too high to begin with either), the effort required to
> > maintain a spin image is extremely low.
>
> There's also the effort of distribuiting and archiving a few
> additional gigabytes, putting up the links on the website and browsing
> through them, some additional time and and additional step that can
> fail during builds…
>
> > A large chunk of our spins are essentially semi-automatic these days,
> > and people don't really notice because at the end of the day, it's a
> > bundle of things configured together.
>
> Yes. And my point is that we can come up with a hundred or a thousands
> of such bundle definitions, and my question is whether we should
> create a separate deliverable for each possible definition.
>
If a SIG is willing to do it and support it, I don't see why not.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
--
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Fedora Miracle Spin (self-contained)
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 10:33:51PM -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 3:26 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 04:57:40PM +0100, Aoife Moloney wrote:
> > > Wiki - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/FedoraMiracle
> >
> > > {{package|miracle-wm}} is available in Fedora Linux 40, so it can be
> > > installed on top of something like the existing Sway spin and
> > > configured to reuse much of the tools used there.
> > >
> > > For Fedora Linux 41, once the spin is produced, people can download
> > > and try the experience intended to be released.
> >
> > I applaud people trying out new window managers and doing stuff with
> > Fedora. But the overhead of creating and distributing a spin is quite
> > high… It seems that the contents of this spin would overlap very
> > strongly with Sway Spin. Would it make sense to combine them and
> > allow users to easily select one or the other? Even during boot, there
> > could be two boot menu entries and we could provide simple instructions
> > to switch between the desktops on an installed system.
> >
>
> Aside from actually being unintuitive and confusing to people to smush
> two spins together like that, the experience will eventually differ
> because different tools will be used.
What tools?
> Also, you overestimate the burden of creating a spin. Aside from
> comps, kickstart definitions, and pungi config being done initially
> (which isn't too high to begin with either), the effort required to
> maintain a spin image is extremely low.
There's also the effort of distribuiting and archiving a few
additional gigabytes, putting up the links on the website and browsing
through them, some additional time and and additional step that can
fail during builds…
> A large chunk of our spins are essentially semi-automatic these days,
> and people don't really notice because at the end of the day, it's a
> bundle of things configured together.
Yes. And my point is that we can come up with a hundred or a thousands
of such bundle definitions, and my question is whether we should
create a separate deliverable for each possible definition.
Zbyszek
--
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Fedora Miracle Spin (self-contained)
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 3:26 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 04:57:40PM +0100, Aoife Moloney wrote:
> > Wiki - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/FedoraMiracle
>
> > {{package|miracle-wm}} is available in Fedora Linux 40, so it can be
> > installed on top of something like the existing Sway spin and
> > configured to reuse much of the tools used there.
> >
> > For Fedora Linux 41, once the spin is produced, people can download
> > and try the experience intended to be released.
>
> I applaud people trying out new window managers and doing stuff with
> Fedora. But the overhead of creating and distributing a spin is quite
> high… It seems that the contents of this spin would overlap very
> strongly with Sway Spin. Would it make sense to combine them and
> allow users to easily select one or the other? Even during boot, there
> could be two boot menu entries and we could provide simple instructions
> to switch between the desktops on an installed system.
>
Aside from actually being unintuitive and confusing to people to smush
two spins together like that, the experience will eventually differ
because different tools will be used.
Also, you overestimate the burden of creating a spin. Aside from
comps, kickstart definitions, and pungi config being done initially
(which isn't too high to begin with either), the effort required to
maintain a spin image is extremely low.
A large chunk of our spins are essentially semi-automatic these days,
and people don't really notice because at the end of the day, it's a
bundle of things configured together.
--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
--
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Re: F41 Change Proposal: Fedora Miracle Spin (self-contained)
On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 04:57:40PM +0100, Aoife Moloney wrote:
> Wiki - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/FedoraMiracle
> {{package|miracle-wm}} is available in Fedora Linux 40, so it can be
> installed on top of something like the existing Sway spin and
> configured to reuse much of the tools used there.
>
> For Fedora Linux 41, once the spin is produced, people can download
> and try the experience intended to be released.
I applaud people trying out new window managers and doing stuff with
Fedora. But the overhead of creating and distributing a spin is quite
high… It seems that the contents of this spin would overlap very
strongly with Sway Spin. Would it make sense to combine them and
allow users to easily select one or the other? Even during boot, there
could be two boot menu entries and we could provide simple instructions
to switch between the desktops on an installed system.
Zbyszek
--
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F41 Change Proposal: Fedora Miracle Spin (self-contained)
Wiki - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/FedoraMiracle
Discussion Thread -
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f41-change-proposal-fedora-miracle-spin-self-contained/114182
This is a proposed Change for Fedora Linux.
This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes
process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive
community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if approved
by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.
== Summary ==
Create an official Fedora Spin shipping the up-and-coming Miracle Window Manager
== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:mattkae| Matthew Kosarek]], [[User:tsimonq2| Simon
Quigley]], [[User:ngompa| Neal Gompa]]
* Email: matt...@matthewkosarek.xyz, si...@tsimonq2.net, ngomp...@gmail.com
== Detailed Description ==
The Miracle Window Manager is a tiling window manager based on the Mir
compositor library. While it is a newer project, it contains many
useful features such as a manual tiling algorithm, floating window
manager support, support for many Wayland protocols, proprietary
Nvidia driver support, and much more. Users are increasingly
interested in using miracle in various systems.
The goal of the miracle spin is to build a complete and elegant tiling
window experience within the Fedora ecosystem.
== Feedback ==
== Benefit to Fedora ==
Miracle will provide Fedora with a high-quality Wayland experience
built with support for all kinds of platforms, including low-end ARM
and x86 devices. On top of this, Fedora will be the first distribution
to provide a Miracle based spin, ensuring that it will become the de
facto distribution for running Miracle.
== Scope ==
* Proposal owners:
** SIG request: [https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/11856 #11856]
** comps: TODO
** fedora-release-miracle: TODO
** kickstart: TODO
** livesys-scripts: TODO
* Other developers: N/A
* Release engineering: [https://pagure.io/releng/issue/12077 #12077]
* Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
* Trademark approval: [https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/491 #491]
* Alignment with Community Initiatives: N/A
== Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
This is a new spin, so there is nothing.
== How To Test ==
{{package|miracle-wm}} is available in Fedora Linux 40, so it can be
installed on top of something like the existing Sway spin and
configured to reuse much of the tools used there.
For Fedora Linux 41, once the spin is produced, people can download
and try the experience intended to be released.
== User Experience ==
The experience will be similar to the Sway spin, though with more
features there may be some different choices on defaults.
== Dependencies ==
N/A
== Contingency Plan ==
* Contingency mechanism: Push off to the next Fedora release.
* Contingency deadline: Beta freeze
* Blocks release? No
== Documentation ==
N/A (not a System Wide Change)
== Release Notes ==
This release introduces the Fedora Miracle Spin. The Fedora Miracle
Spin aims to provide the premiere Miracle window manager experience on
top of Fedora Linux, the leading edge platform for developers and
users alike.
--
Aoife Moloney
Fedora Operations Architect
Fedora Project
Matrix: @amoloney:fedora.im
IRC: amoloney
--
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F41 Change Proposal: Fedora Miracle Spin (self-contained)
Wiki - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/FedoraMiracle
Discussion Thread -
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f41-change-proposal-fedora-miracle-spin-self-contained/114182
This is a proposed Change for Fedora Linux.
This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes
process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive
community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if approved
by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.
== Summary ==
Create an official Fedora Spin shipping the up-and-coming Miracle Window Manager
== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:mattkae| Matthew Kosarek]], [[User:tsimonq2| Simon
Quigley]], [[User:ngompa| Neal Gompa]]
* Email: matt...@matthewkosarek.xyz, si...@tsimonq2.net, ngomp...@gmail.com
== Detailed Description ==
The Miracle Window Manager is a tiling window manager based on the Mir
compositor library. While it is a newer project, it contains many
useful features such as a manual tiling algorithm, floating window
manager support, support for many Wayland protocols, proprietary
Nvidia driver support, and much more. Users are increasingly
interested in using miracle in various systems.
The goal of the miracle spin is to build a complete and elegant tiling
window experience within the Fedora ecosystem.
== Feedback ==
== Benefit to Fedora ==
Miracle will provide Fedora with a high-quality Wayland experience
built with support for all kinds of platforms, including low-end ARM
and x86 devices. On top of this, Fedora will be the first distribution
to provide a Miracle based spin, ensuring that it will become the de
facto distribution for running Miracle.
== Scope ==
* Proposal owners:
** SIG request: [https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/11856 #11856]
** comps: TODO
** fedora-release-miracle: TODO
** kickstart: TODO
** livesys-scripts: TODO
* Other developers: N/A
* Release engineering: [https://pagure.io/releng/issue/12077 #12077]
* Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
* Trademark approval: [https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/491 #491]
* Alignment with Community Initiatives: N/A
== Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
This is a new spin, so there is nothing.
== How To Test ==
{{package|miracle-wm}} is available in Fedora Linux 40, so it can be
installed on top of something like the existing Sway spin and
configured to reuse much of the tools used there.
For Fedora Linux 41, once the spin is produced, people can download
and try the experience intended to be released.
== User Experience ==
The experience will be similar to the Sway spin, though with more
features there may be some different choices on defaults.
== Dependencies ==
N/A
== Contingency Plan ==
* Contingency mechanism: Push off to the next Fedora release.
* Contingency deadline: Beta freeze
* Blocks release? No
== Documentation ==
N/A (not a System Wide Change)
== Release Notes ==
This release introduces the Fedora Miracle Spin. The Fedora Miracle
Spin aims to provide the premiere Miracle window manager experience on
top of Fedora Linux, the leading edge platform for developers and
users alike.
--
Aoife Moloney
Fedora Operations Architect
Fedora Project
Matrix: @amoloney:fedora.im
IRC: amoloney
--
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