Re: [digitalradio] Net14 + PK-63
My beacon is
K3UK-14 [FN02HK ].
I also produce
K3UKAPSK63:K3UK FN02hk
K3UKAPSK63:K3UK FN02hk
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
while playing around..
On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:15 AM, Andy obrien k3uka...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks Jim. I have the software and am giving it a try in PSK63 mode ,
software seems to be working but I have a few questions.
Are ALL the frequencies listed on the web site for PSK63 as well as Packet
? Also, it has been a while since the days of using UI-View, do I put my
grid in the HF beacon or do you need my longitude /latitude?
Andy K3UK
On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 8:28 AM, G0JXN Jim g0jxn@ntlworld.com wrote:
Hi Guys
As an experiment I have set up APRS/PSK-63 along side the Net14 300bd APRS
on 20m. The 300bd APRS is running at 100W and the APRS/PSK-63 at 25W.
Full details of the setup are available at www.net14.org.uk under Net14 +
PSK-63.
Reports and comments please.
73
Jim, G0JXN/MB7UXN
Re: [digitalradio] Net14 + PK-63
Perhaps this is more like it...
K3UK-14APSK63:K3UK-14 [FN02HK ].
On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:32 AM, Andy obrien k3uka...@gmail.com wrote:
My beacon is
K3UK-14 [FN02HK ].
I also produce
K3UKAPSK63:K3UK FN02hk
K3UKAPSK63:K3UK FN02hk
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
while playing around..
On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:15 AM, Andy obrien k3uka...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks Jim. I have the software and am giving it a try in PSK63 mode ,
software seems to be working but I have a few questions.
Are ALL the frequencies listed on the web site for PSK63 as well as
Packet ? Also, it has been a while since the days of using UI-View, do I
put my grid in the HF beacon or do you need my longitude /latitude?
Andy K3UK
On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 8:28 AM, G0JXN Jim g0jxn@ntlworld.comwrote:
Hi Guys
As an experiment I have set up APRS/PSK-63 along side the Net14 300bd
APRS on 20m. The 300bd APRS is running at 100W and the APRS/PSK-63 at 25W.
Full details of the setup are available at www.net14.org.uk under Net14
+ PSK-63.
Reports and comments please.
73
Jim, G0JXN/MB7UXN
[digitalradio] Re: Net14 + PK-63
Hi Guys
Andy, the frequencies listed on the web site are for APRS 300bd, except 10m
which is 1200bd. The setup I describe is specifically as an adjunct to Net14
and not a PSK-63 general QSO frequency.
With regard to Long/Lat v Grid Square, the choice is yours but the Grid Square
shortens the packet which has to be an advantage for DX working.
Incidentally N3FLR and I exchanged beacons and messages yesterday but with
errors.
73
Jim, G0JXN/MB7UXN
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Andy obrien k3uka...@... wrote:
My beacon is
K3UK-14 [FN02HK ].
I also produce
K3UKAPSK63:K3UK FN02hk
K3UKAPSK63:K3UK FN02hk
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
while playing around..
On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:15 AM, Andy obrien k3uka...@... wrote:
Thanks Jim. I have the software and am giving it a try in PSK63 mode ,
software seems to be working but I have a few questions.
Are ALL the frequencies listed on the web site for PSK63 as well as Packet
? Also, it has been a while since the days of using UI-View, do I put my
grid in the HF beacon or do you need my longitude /latitude?
Andy K3UK
On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 8:28 AM, G0JXN Jim g0jxn@... wrote:
Hi Guys
As an experiment I have set up APRS/PSK-63 along side the Net14 300bd APRS
on 20m. The 300bd APRS is running at 100W and the APRS/PSK-63 at 25W.
Full details of the setup are available at www.net14.org.uk under Net14 +
PSK-63.
Reports and comments please.
73
Jim, G0JXN/MB7UXN
[digitalradio] Re: Net14 + PK-63
I'm still confused... if I want to try PSK63 instead of 300 baud packet, do i
use the same frequencies and sideband ?
Andy K3UK
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, g0jxn g0jxn@... wrote:
Hi Guys
Andy, the frequencies listed on the web site are for APRS 300bd, except 10m
which is 1200bd. The setup I describe is specifically as an adjunct to Net14
and not a PSK-63 general QSO frequency.
With regard to Long/Lat v Grid Square, the choice is yours but the Grid
Square shortens the packet which has to be an advantage for DX working.
Incidentally N3FLR and I exchanged beacons and messages yesterday but with
errors.
73
Jim, G0JXN/MB7UXN
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Andy obrien k3ukandy@ wrote:
My beacon is
K3UK-14 [FN02HK ].
I also produce
K3UKAPSK63:K3UK FN02hk
K3UKAPSK63:K3UK FN02hk
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
while playing around..
On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:15 AM, Andy obrien k3ukandy@ wrote:
Thanks Jim. I have the software and am giving it a try in PSK63 mode ,
software seems to be working but I have a few questions.
Are ALL the frequencies listed on the web site for PSK63 as well as
Packet
? Also, it has been a while since the days of using UI-View, do I put my
grid in the HF beacon or do you need my longitude /latitude?
Andy K3UK
On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 8:28 AM, G0JXN Jim g0jxn.jim@ wrote:
Hi Guys
As an experiment I have set up APRS/PSK-63 along side the Net14 300bd
APRS
on 20m. The 300bd APRS is running at 100W and the APRS/PSK-63 at 25W.
Full details of the setup are available at www.net14.org.uk under Net14 +
PSK-63.
Reports and comments please.
73
Jim, G0JXN/MB7UXN
[digitalradio] Re: Net14 + PK-63
Hi Guys
Andy, if you wish to join in the Net14 activities with just PSK-63 then by all
means do so but I stress this frequency is not for general QSOs. If you are
just running a PSK-63 program set your dial to 14.103MHz LSB and the PSK tone
to 1300Hz. If you are running an APRS program under AGWPE then set the dial to
14.103,510MHz LSB and the PSK tone to 1800Hz. Whatever, the tone will be at
14.101,700MHz.
If you do join us on Net14 I would appreciate you inserting your IARU Locator
in your beacon so that you appear on my map.
73
Jim, G0JXN/MB7UXN
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, obrienaj k3uka...@... wrote:
I'm still confused... if I want to try PSK63 instead of 300 baud packet, do
i use the same frequencies and sideband ?
Andy K3UK
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, g0jxn g0jxn.jim@ wrote:
Hi Guys
Andy, the frequencies listed on the web site are for APRS 300bd, except 10m
which is 1200bd. The setup I describe is specifically as an adjunct to
Net14 and not a PSK-63 general QSO frequency.
With regard to Long/Lat v Grid Square, the choice is yours but the Grid
Square shortens the packet which has to be an advantage for DX working.
Incidentally N3FLR and I exchanged beacons and messages yesterday but with
errors.
73
Jim, G0JXN/MB7UXN
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Andy obrien k3ukandy@ wrote:
My beacon is
K3UK-14 [FN02HK ].
I also produce
K3UKAPSK63:K3UK FN02hk
K3UKAPSK63:K3UK FN02hk
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
K3UK-14APSK63:::{1
while playing around..
On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:15 AM, Andy obrien k3ukandy@ wrote:
Thanks Jim. I have the software and am giving it a try in PSK63 mode ,
software seems to be working but I have a few questions.
Are ALL the frequencies listed on the web site for PSK63 as well as
Packet
? Also, it has been a while since the days of using UI-View, do I put
my
grid in the HF beacon or do you need my longitude /latitude?
Andy K3UK
On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 8:28 AM, G0JXN Jim g0jxn.jim@ wrote:
Hi Guys
As an experiment I have set up APRS/PSK-63 along side the Net14 300bd
APRS
on 20m. The 300bd APRS is running at 100W and the APRS/PSK-63 at 25W.
Full details of the setup are available at www.net14.org.uk under
Net14 +
PSK-63.
Reports and comments please.
73
Jim, G0JXN/MB7UXN
[digitalradio] Re: Net14 + PSK-63
I've never heard of Net14 before and don't know how it differs from APRS in general, but the best band for APRS activity (including using PSK63) 24/7 seems to be 30m. You need the software APRS Messenger which you can get from this Yahoo group: http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/cross_country_wireless/ where you'll also find help and advice on using it if necessary. This is all you need to send and receive APRS text messages but it can be fun to use an APRS client such as APRSISCE (obtainable froim this Yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aprsisce) so you can see on a map the position of stations whose packets you receive. APRS over PSK63 on 30m is operated using USB with a dial frequency of 10.137600 MHz and an audio frequency of 2100Hz (the latter is an option selected within the APRS Messenger software.) You cannot use a regular PSK63 program to participate in this because the APRS over PSK63 protocol uses checksumming to ensure the validity of packets. There are probably a lot of other questions which have already been answered (or can be asked) in the aforementioned Yahoo groups. This is a very interesting use of PSK63 which appears to provide a more robust method of sending APRS over HF than using 300baud packet. Julian, G4ILO
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Net14 + PSK-63
We have been using PSK63 for APRS inside PSKmail from 2003 to 2005, and we have dropped it. Reason was the long duration of the frames, which made them extremely vulnarable to qrm, qrn and other goodies. We are now using PSK250 and PSK500R with a lot more success, also the pskmail protocol has advantages as the AX25 protocol carries far too much information for use on HF. But your mileage may vary... 73, Rein Pa0R I've never heard of Net14 before and don't know how it differs from APRS in general, but the best band for APRS activity (including using PSK63) 24/7 seems to be 30m. You need the software APRS Messenger which you can get from this Yahoo group: http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/cross_country_wireless/ where you'll also find help and advice on using it if necessary. This is all you need to send and receive APRS text messages but it can be fun to use an APRS client such as APRSISCE (obtainable froim this Yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aprsisce) so you can see on a map the position of stations whose packets you receive. APRS over PSK63 on 30m is operated using USB with a dial frequency of 10.137600 MHz and an audio frequency of 2100Hz (the latter is an option selected within the APRS Messenger software.) You cannot use a regular PSK63 program to participate in this because the APRS over PSK63 protocol uses checksumming to ensure the validity of packets. There are probably a lot of other questions which have already been answered (or can be asked) in the aforementioned Yahoo groups. This is a very interesting use of PSK63 which appears to provide a more robust method of sending APRS over HF than using 300baud packet. Julian, G4ILO http://www.obriensweb.com/digispotter.html Chat, Skeds, and spots all in one (resize to suit)Yahoo! Groups Links
[digitalradio] ROS on UHF
Extensive testing of ROS on the air on UHF have now been concluded. Unfortunately, ROS totally fails for UHF communications, in either 16 baud, or 1 baud variants, and using either the HF or EME channel. Even with ROS metric readings between -1 dB and -8 dB (i.e. relatively strong signals), ROS only printed on 16 baud or on 1 baud as long as the tones sounded pure in the headphones, but as soon as the tones sounded wobbly and became broadened on the waterfall, decoding became total garbage. When SSB phone was understandable (but with significant flutter), ROS still would not print, even after a successful Frame Acquisition and Symbol Synchronization and print of the callsigns. We switched to Olivia 32-1000 and print was perfect, as expected, as signals were strong, even though QSB and flutter could be heard. The problem is that ROS is apparently completely destroyed by what is appears to be Doppler flutter (for want of a better term), which is present on UHF most of the time. Under those conditions, the spread spectrum technique used in ROS 16 baud and ROS 1 baud modes simply does not survive the Doppler disturbances, whereas Olivia is a multitone FSK mode and does very well. The ROS 500 Hz FSK variants were not tested, as the hope was that the spread spectrum variant of ROS would outperform Olivia, but instead it did much worse. Olivia 16-500, as a reference, almost equals CW in ability to work near the noise, so we were hoping that ROS would work under the noise, but it did not. Apparently, spread spectrum is just a poor choice whenever there is Doppler-induced distortion like there usually is on 70cm. When I use two transceivers and computers locally, where there are no Doppler effects, all the ROS variants work perfectly, but in real life conditions, where we are faced with QRM, QSB, multipath, and unstable atmospheric moisture conditions that cause fast frequency shifts (apparently Doppler-induced disturbances), ROS fails completely. As Olivia has been designed to accommodate all the difficult conditions we have to deal with on both HF and above, Olivia is a much better choice, and at half the bandwidth, at the same typing speed. This concludes our tests with ROS and there will be further testing or use of ROS by this station. ROS spread spectrum is legal to use in the US above 222 MHz, so if anyone else can make such tests, please post the results here. 73 - Skip KH6TY digitalradio@yahoogroups.com wrote: There are 7 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1a. Re: Scanning PSKmail WARC freqs From: Rein Couperus 2. space to ground audio channels via SDR From: Andy obrien 3a. Has anyone tried the WINMOR keyboarding? From: Howard Z 3b. Re: Has anyone tried the WINMOR keyboarding? From: Andy obrien 4a. Net14 + PK-63 From: G0JXN Jim 4b. Re: Net14 + PK-63 From: Andy obrien 4c. Re: Net14 + PK-63 From: Andy obrien Messages 1a. Re: Scanning PSKmail WARC freqs Posted by: Rein Couperus r...@couperus.com pa0r Date: Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:09 am ((PDT)) The PSkmail servers only use CALL de CALL when confirming messages or user beaons... If you have captured PSK250 then it will probably have been US servers, or Intermar maritime servers on 10148.0 (center freq) (DK4XI-30), as on 10147.0 we use PSK500R as default. As soon as a connection is established, RSID is only used for the mode change protocol, and a lot of users don't use the software supporting the new protocol yet... Rein PA0R Rein et al. I scanned 10147 and 18105 today for six hours, alternating every 90 seconds with a 3 Khz range. I only picked up three PSk250 RS IDs on 30M and NONE on 17M. Each RS ID on 30M was not decoded well enough to produce a callsign. Since Muktipsk looks for a de ** string, perhaps the stations were sending PSKMAIL IDs without a de ? For the last hour , I listening for 30 minutes on each frequency, listened with my own ears. I heard no PSK250 on 18105 . On 30M I heard two RS IDs and several PSK250 signals without RS ID. perhaps not all PSK mail servers are using RS ID yet ? Andy K3UK Messages in this topic (3) 2. space to ground audio channels via SDR Posted by: Andy obrien k3uka...@gmail.com obrienaj Date: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:05 pm ((PDT)) While not exactly digital modes... -- Forwarded message -- From: pauljmarsh pauljma...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 3:07 PM Subject: [SDR-IQ] Re: Impressions on SDR-IP To: sdr...@yahoogroups.com Some impressions of the IP is at http://www.pudxk.blogspot.com/73,Tarmo... Hi Tarmo,all, Thats a very interesting write up. I've put my observations on
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Net14 + PSK-63
Thanks Juian, the Net14 instructions suggested 1800 Hz as an audio frequency but I'll try 2100 and see if I detect any traffic. I do have APRS Messenger. Andy K3UK On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 7:28 AM, g4ilo jul...@g4ilo.com wrote: I've never heard of Net14 before and don't know how it differs from APRS in general, but the best band for APRS activity (including using PSK63) 24/7 seems to be 30m. You need the software APRS Messenger which you can get from this Yahoo group: http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/cross_country_wireless/ where you'll also find help and advice on using it if necessary. This is all you need to send and receive APRS text messages but it can be fun to use an APRS client such as APRSISCE (obtainable froim this Yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aprsisce) so you can see on a map the position of stations whose packets you receive. APRS over PSK63 on 30m is operated using USB with a dial frequency of 10.137600 MHz and an audio frequency of 2100Hz (the latter is an option selected within the APRS Messenger software.) You cannot use a regular PSK63 program to participate in this because the APRS over PSK63 protocol uses checksumming to ensure the validity of packets. There are probably a lot of other questions which have already been answered (or can be asked) in the aforementioned Yahoo groups. This is a very interesting use of PSK63 which appears to provide a more robust method of sending APRS over HF than using 300baud packet. Julian, G4ILO
RE: [digitalradio] ROS on UHF
There's a lot more to Olivia than being multi-tone MFSK. A fairer comparison with a new mode such as ROS would be MFSK as the features of Olivia that make it so very robust could (should) be added at a later date. To put it simply Olivia hunts for the best signal it can decode and has error correction, this 'hunting' is a reason for the greater CPU usage. Simon Brown, HB9DRV http://sdr-radio.com From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:digitalra...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hteller Sent: 21 March 2010 15:38 To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: [digitalradio] ROS on UHF ... whereas Olivia is a multitone FSK mode and does very well.
[digitalradio] Congratulations Simon! DAYTON HAMVENTION Awards Technical Excellence* - Simon Brown / HB9DRV
From eham.net and HRD forum.. ill Pasternak (WA6ITF) on March 19, 2010 BREAKING NEWS FROM AMATEUR RADIO NEWSLINE: DAYTON HAMVENTION(c) ANNOUNCES 2010 AWARD WINNERS: Three amateur radio (ham) operators who have made significant contributions to the Amateur Radio Service, will be honored guests when Hamvention® 2010 opens in Hara Arena on May 14. In addition, a club of the year will be honored in keeping with the 2010 Hamvention theme, Amateur Radio Clubs Worldwide: The Lifeline. Recipients of this year's Hamvention® awards are: *Special Achievement* - Dick Ross/K2MGA for his excellent work over the past number of years on CQ magazine. *Technical Excellence* - Simon Brown / HB9DRV for the invention and development of Ham Radio Deluxe. *Amateur of the Year* - Jim Stafford / W4QO for 50 years of service to Amateur Radio and his support for public service and unending efforts to recruit and develop hams of all ages. *Club of the Year* - North Fulton Amateur Radio League, NFARL, North Fulton, GA - Serving the greater Atlanta Area, the State of Georgia and the US with emergency services, training and the preparation of Amateur Radio in general. Choosing the finalists was a difficult process due to the number of fine nominations said Frank Beafore, Chairman of the Awards Committee. This year, an additional award category was added - Club of the Year. This award honors a ham radio organization that contributes to the good of Amateur Radio. Although we narrowed our club choice to North Fulton, GA, we had a number of deserving candidates stated Beafore. The winner of this year's award is certainly a great example of the thousands of clubs and organizations around the world perpetuating our avocation. An intimate dinner on May 15 will be held in downtown Dayton honoring the 2010 Hamvention Award winners.
Re: [digitalradio] ROS on UHF
Simon HB9DRV wrote: There's a lot more to Olivia than being multi-tone MFSK. I am aware of that, Simon. However, Olivia is currently the most popular digital mode other than PSK31 and RTTY, and the question was if ROS 16 baud was worth using twice the bandwidth of Olivia. We hoped that it would be, because on UHF, space is not at a premium as it is on HF, but ROS 16 baud, (the spread spectrum variation) at 2250 Hz width, was not even as good as SSB phone under the fast Doppler flutter conditions. So, as a choice of modes currently available, either MFSK16 (my personal preference on HF, but impractical on UHF due to the necessity to tune so accurately and have little or no drift) or Olivia, is a far better choice than ROS, and performs better. We would like nothing better if there were a mode that outperformed Olivia at equivalent typing speed, and could copy further into the noise than Olivia can, and is more tolerant to mis-tuning or drift than MFSK16, but so far ROS is not the one. As things stand, CW (decoded by ear) is currently the last mode standing, but it seems it must be possible to come up a mode that can beat CW under the typical conditions found on UHF. 73 - Skip KH6TY
Re: [digitalradio] Congratulations Simon! DAYTON HAMVENTION Awards Technical Excellence* - Simon Brown / HB9DRV
*Technical Excellence* - Simon Brown / HB9DRV for the invention and development of Ham Radio Deluxe. Well deserved, Simon! I am using HRD for remote operation, and the standalone HRDrotator program is perfect for what we do. HRD is an amazing accomplishment and I am so glad you got such a prestigious award! 73, Skip KH6TY
[digitalradio] Re: ROS on UHF
The question is whether a narrower mode would have done as good a job or even better. To take up more than twice the bandwidth of even the widest Olivia mode there has to be some benefit. In IARU region 1 only 10KHz is allocated to narrow band digimodes so ROS should not be used at all on 30m. Julian, G4ILO --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Siegfried Jackstien siegfried.jackst...@... wrote: Just a few hours before reading your mail i had a long qso on 30m Signals were just hearable sometimes -15db or less sometimes signal went up to -6db 100%solid copy with a station from kiew So ros seems to work well on hf uhf is a different thing so further testing is useful
[digitalradio] Using JT65A and W4CQZ RB for radiation pattern studies.
While transmitting on 20M today , using JT65HF software and monitoring the W4CQZ Reverse Beacons for JT65A,, I was lucky enough to get 9 stations report my signal strength from one 45 second transmission. Take a look at the report each station noted at 2136 Europe. I was using my home made ground plane vertical mounted at 17ft (1/4 wave). Southern US stations (mostly SW of me) averaged several dB better signals from me than the Europeans. So can I assume anything meaningful aabout the radiation pattern from this antenna or is the key factor to examine the distance ? The Europeans were twice as far away from my QTH. ES2MA-1 (KO29HI) Heard K3UK on 14076.12 KHz -19dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (6755 kms) G4ENZ-1 (IO81vv) Heard K3UK on 14076.11 KHz -17dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (3514 miles) F6DKQ-1 (JN37BI) Heard K3UK on 14076.13 KHz -11dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (3986 miles) Southern USA KD5JGA-1 (EM16rb) Heard K3UK on 14076.11 KHz -10dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A N5LYJ-1 (EM03rv) Heard K3UK on 14076.08 KHz -9dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (1191 miles) KC5NYJ-1 (EL09rn) Heard K3UK on 14076.11 KHz -11dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (1380 miles) N4ABN-1 (DM59pd) Heard K3UK on 14076.10 KHz -17dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (1545 miles) WY5R-1 (DM95be) Heard K3UK on 14076.11 KHz -7dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (1307 miles) Local VE3CDX-1 (DM26ic) Heard K3UK on 14076.09 KHz -9dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (30 miles) Andy K3UK
Re: [digitalradio] ROS on UHF]
If there were documentation on ROS then there would the possibility of investigating the problem further and maybe adding improvements. Part of the problem is that even if there is a large degree of spreading compared to the data rate, the channel is still quite narrow and a large portion of it subject to the same disturbances or interference. This is similar to what happens with the various commercial broadcast digital systems. The wider ones are much more robust, especially in regard to multipath, even though the data payload was increased in proportion. KH6TY wrote: Simon HB9DRV wrote: There's a lot more to Olivia than being multi-tone MFSK. I am aware of that, Simon. However, Olivia is currently the most popular digital mode other than PSK31 and RTTY, and the question was if ROS 16 baud was worth using twice the bandwidth of Olivia. We hoped that it would be, because on UHF, space is not at a premium as it is on HF, but ROS 16 baud, (the spread spectrum variation) at 2250 Hz width, was not even as good as SSB phone under the fast Doppler flutter conditions. So, as a choice of modes currently available, either MFSK16 (my personal preference on HF, but impractical on UHF due to the necessity to tune so accurately and have little or no drift) or Olivia, is a far better choice than ROS, and performs better. We would like nothing better if there were a mode that outperformed Olivia at equivalent typing speed, and could copy further into the noise than Olivia can, and is more tolerant to mis-tuning or drift than MFSK16, but so far ROS is not the one. As things stand, CW (decoded by ear) is currently the last mode standing, but it seems it must be possible to come up a mode that can beat CW under the typical conditions found on UHF. 73 - Skip KH6TY
Re: [digitalradio] ROS on UHF]
Based on observations of the tones on the waterfall on the air, compared to observing them locally, and hearing the raucous tones compared to bell-like quality locally, my guess is that perhaps the modulation is disturbed or the tones moved in frequency far enough so there is no decoding. If we try to use DominoEx, which is very tolerant to drift, the Doppler distortion also stops DominoEx from decoding. MFSK16 is not usable, because the Doppler shift is so great that tuning is lost and the AFC cannot follow it. It is not unusual to see a slow Doppler shift of 50 Hz to 100 Hz on 70cm, but the most severe problem is a fast Doppler distortion which is present almost all the time and destroys the integrity of the carriers, at least as it is possible to hear and see on the waterfall. I can't compare ROS on HF to UHF, except for monitoring, as it is illegal to transmit on HF, but monitoring on HF does not show the same problems. I have seen ROS signals start printing garbage on HF in a QSB fade and then recover when the fade ends, but there is no published specification for the minimum S/N that the 16 baud variation is supposed to work at. Even when there is no QRM, I have seen decoding of ROS 16 baud, 2250 Hz width, stop at metrics of -8 dB. If this corresponds to S/N, then the 16 baud version does not compare favorably with Olivia or MFSK16, which can work 4 dB to 5 dB lower. My guess is that the problem is not because the spreading in ROS is too little, but on UHF, that the tones themselves are disturbed in a way that makes ROS just print garbage when Olivia is still printing quite well. ROS stopped decoding today even when SSB phone was about Q4 copy, and under those conditions Olivia prints without any errors. Unfortunately the way it is now, we are unable to successfully use ROS on UHF, for whatever the reason, and it is illegal to use it on HF under FCC jurisdiction. That is too bad, because ROS is definitely fun to use. 73 - Skip KH6TY w2xj wrote: If there were documentation on ROS then there would the possibility of investigating the problem further and maybe adding improvements. Part of the problem is that even if there is a large degree of spreading compared to the data rate, the channel is still quite narrow and a large portion of it subject to the same disturbances or interference. This is similar to what happens with the various commercial broadcast digital systems. The wider ones are much more robust, especially in regard to multipath, even though the data payload was increased in proportion. KH6TY wrote: Simon HB9DRV wrote: There's a lot more to Olivia than being multi-tone MFSK. I am aware of that, Simon. However, Olivia is currently the most popular digital mode other than PSK31 and RTTY, and the question was if ROS 16 baud was worth using twice the bandwidth of Olivia. We hoped that it would be, because on UHF, space is not at a premium as it is on HF, but ROS 16 baud, (the spread spectrum variation) at 2250 Hz width, was not even as good as SSB phone under the fast Doppler flutter conditions. So, as a choice of modes currently available, either MFSK16 (my personal preference on HF, but impractical on UHF due to the necessity to tune so accurately and have little or no drift) or Olivia, is a far better choice than ROS, and performs better. We would like nothing better if there were a mode that outperformed Olivia at equivalent typing speed, and could copy further into the noise than Olivia can, and is more tolerant to mis-tuning or drift than MFSK16, but so far ROS is not the one. As things stand, CW (decoded by ear) is currently the last mode standing, but it seems it must be possible to come up a mode that can beat CW under the typical conditions found on UHF. 73 - Skip KH6TY
[digitalradio] Re: Using JT65A and W4CQZ RB for radiation pattern studies.
I don't think you can impute anything meaningful from one set of reports. Normal QSB will make a difference of from several to many dB which can only be averaged out over a period of time. WSPR is much better IMO for this sort of thing. You can leave it running, go and do something interesting, then come back later and download all the spots and take an average. You can also transmit simultaneously on two different frequencies using the test antenna and a reference one and compare the reports each one gets. (You have to start the transmit cycles manually in that case, there is no facility in the software for two copies of the program to use the same pattern of transmissions.) Julian, G4ILO --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Andy obrien k3uka...@... wrote: While transmitting on 20M today , using JT65HF software and monitoring the W4CQZ Reverse Beacons for JT65A,, I was lucky enough to get 9 stations report my signal strength from one 45 second transmission. Take a look at the report each station noted at 2136 Europe. I was using my home made ground plane vertical mounted at 17ft (1/4 wave). Southern US stations (mostly SW of me) averaged several dB better signals from me than the Europeans. So can I assume anything meaningful aabout the radiation pattern from this antenna or is the key factor to examine the distance ? The Europeans were twice as far away from my QTH. ES2MA-1 (KO29HI) Heard K3UK on 14076.12 KHz -19dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (6755 kms) G4ENZ-1 (IO81vv) Heard K3UK on 14076.11 KHz -17dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (3514 miles) F6DKQ-1 (JN37BI) Heard K3UK on 14076.13 KHz -11dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (3986 miles) Southern USA KD5JGA-1 (EM16rb) Heard K3UK on 14076.11 KHz -10dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A N5LYJ-1 (EM03rv) Heard K3UK on 14076.08 KHz -9dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (1191 miles) KC5NYJ-1 (EL09rn) Heard K3UK on 14076.11 KHz -11dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (1380 miles) N4ABN-1 (DM59pd) Heard K3UK on 14076.10 KHz -17dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (1545 miles) WY5R-1 (DM95be) Heard K3UK on 14076.11 KHz -7dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (1307 miles) Local VE3CDX-1 (DM26ic) Heard K3UK on 14076.09 KHz -9dB at 21:36:00Z using JT65A (30 miles) Andy K3UK
[digitalradio] web pages- trasmissioni digitali
http://iz5cnd.dyndns.org ueste pagine web sono rivolte a radioamatori ed appassionati di radioascolto interessati alle trasmissioni digitali in ambito radioamatoriale. Col termine Trasmissioni Digitali intendo tutte quelle emissioni, possibili grazie a software specifici, per la maggior parte ideati e scritti dagli stessi radioamatori. Accanto ai modi storici ( RTTY e PACKET e SSTV) ne sono stati creati altri che possono esistere solamente in virtù delle capacità di elaborazione dei segnali audio da parte del computer . L'interfacciamento tra la radio e il PC avviene semplicemente tramite la scheda audio del PC, classificabile come periferica di input e output per la conversione dei segnali audio da analogico a digitale e viceversa.
Re: [digitalradio] ROS on UHF]]
Yes but at UHF there seems to not be enough spread to tolerate the Doppler shift. If the frequencies were further apart, and were received through a wider window, the Doppler would be tolerated better but at what penalty in noise? I can think of a few ways to solve your problem but not with existing sound card modes. KH6TY wrote: Based on observations of the tones on the waterfall on the air, compared to observing them locally, and hearing the raucous tones compared to bell-like quality locally, my guess is that perhaps the modulation is disturbed or the tones moved in frequency far enough so there is no decoding. If we try to use DominoEx, which is very tolerant to drift, the Doppler distortion also stops DominoEx from decoding. MFSK16 is not usable, because the Doppler shift is so great that tuning is lost and the AFC cannot follow it. It is not unusual to see a slow Doppler shift of 50 Hz to 100 Hz on 70cm, but the most severe problem is a fast Doppler distortion which is present almost all the time and destroys the integrity of the carriers, at least as it is possible to hear and see on the waterfall. I can't compare ROS on HF to UHF, except for monitoring, as it is illegal to transmit on HF, but monitoring on HF does not show the same problems. I have seen ROS signals start printing garbage on HF in a QSB fade and then recover when the fade ends, but there is no published specification for the minimum S/N that the 16 baud variation is supposed to work at. Even when there is no QRM, I have seen decoding of ROS 16 baud, 2250 Hz width, stop at metrics of -8 dB. If this corresponds to S/N, then the 16 baud version does not compare favorably with Olivia or MFSK16, which can work 4 dB to 5 dB lower. My guess is that the problem is not because the spreading in ROS is too little, but on UHF, that the tones themselves are disturbed in a way that makes ROS just print garbage when Olivia is still printing quite well. ROS stopped decoding today even when SSB phone was about Q4 copy, and under those conditions Olivia prints without any errors. Unfortunately the way it is now, we are unable to successfully use ROS on UHF, for whatever the reason, and it is illegal to use it on HF under FCC jurisdiction. That is too bad, because ROS is definitely fun to use. 73 - Skip KH6TY w2xj wrote: If there were documentation on ROS then there would the possibility of investigating the problem further and maybe adding improvements. Part of the problem is that even if there is a large degree of spreading compared to the data rate, the channel is still quite narrow and a large portion of it subject to the same disturbances or interference. This is similar to what happens with the various commercial broadcast digital systems. The wider ones are much more robust, especially in regard to multipath, even though the data payload was increased in proportion. KH6TY wrote: Simon HB9DRV wrote: There's a lot more to Olivia than being multi-tone MFSK. I am aware of that, Simon. However, Olivia is currently the most popular digital mode other than PSK31 and RTTY, and the question was if ROS 16 baud was worth using twice the bandwidth of Olivia. We hoped that it would be, because on UHF, space is not at a premium as it is on HF, but ROS 16 baud, (the spread spectrum variation) at 2250 Hz width, was not even as good as SSB phone under the fast Doppler flutter conditions. So, as a choice of modes currently available, either MFSK16 (my personal preference on HF, but impractical on UHF due to the necessity to tune so accurately and have little or no drift) or Olivia, is a far better choice than ROS, and performs better. We would like nothing better if there were a mode that outperformed Olivia at equivalent typing speed, and could copy further into the noise than Olivia can, and is more tolerant to mis-tuning or drift than MFSK16, but so far ROS is not the one. As things stand, CW (decoded by ear) is currently the last mode standing, but it seems it must be possible to come up a mode that can beat CW under the typical conditions found on UHF. 73 - Skip KH6TY
[digitalradio] FW: Digital communications for IARU Region 2 Band plan
-- Forwarded message -- From: k4...@comcast.net Date: Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 9:08 AM Subject: [wl2kemcomm] FW: Digital communications for IARU Region 2 Band plan To: wl2kemc...@yahoogroups.com Cc: winlink_programs_gr...@yahoogroups.com All, If you have seen the IARU's view of what a band plan should look like, take a look at the attached. My response is no literary masterpiece, but I thought it important to state a case. Anyone else wishing to do likewise, please have at it. Steve, k4cjx, aaa9ac -Original Message- From: k4...@comcast.net k4cjx%40comcast.net [mailto:k4...@comcast.netk4cjx%40comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 6:27 AM To: 'bandplan2...@arrl.org %27bandplan2010%40arrl.org' Cc: 'Mickey Cox'; 'k...@arrl.org %27k5uz%40arrl.org' Subject: Digital communications for IARU Region 2 Band plan To all it may concern: These comments are being sought by the ARRL regarding considerations for the proposed IARU Region 2 band plan. I wish to speak toward the lack of opportunity available toward any future expansion of digital communications under such a proposed plan. With the exception of Amateur Radio, the growth of digital communications has saturated all facets of radio communications. The obvious reason for this digital saturation is the effectiveness, and efficiency of such a modes of operation over their older analog counterparts. Fact is, in other services, especially those which are responsible for our safety and well-being, digital operations are now being mandatorily imposed by the FCC. Because OBVIOUSLY, those who lead the charge toward the future direction of Amateur radio have no interest in enhancing the ability to communicate by modern standards, we are left with a tremendous scarcity of talent in the digital arena, especially in our ability to transfer data traffic. The very small digital segments proposed become a matter of popularity, and most certainly, nothing to do with developmental considerations toward the enhancement incentives to produce more effective methods of communications. As we fall further behind in our antiquated methodologies, our own effectiveness and efficiency suffers relative to our commercial counterparts, leaving us vulnerable to intrusion from other services. Is this currently not the situation we face continually? To snuff the opportunity for experimental and operational enhancements by severely limiting the frequency spectrum is one certain method to insure the retardation of any future for digital enhancements in our communications toolbox. During the days of dominance with Amplitude Modulation (AM), no progress toward Single Sideband (SSB) would have been made without available spectrum for development and operation. Today, developers and manufacturers of Amateur radio equipment have little to no incentive to develop and use digital methodology and protocols because they have no band space to use what is developed and produced. Thus, very little progress is being made. The very few KHz devoted to narrow and wide band digital operations, attended or unattended, are absurdly small for any future development. In addition, on 80 meters, such operations falls within the new SSB sub-band, where such operations were just recently moved by the FCC. On 40 meters, the operation is not in our digital alley and on the higher HF spectrum, such operations are so limited that it is not practical for anyone to continue operations or development. Modern digital methods such as those used by our own government's MIL SPEC STANAG protocols are not legal due to the absurdly slow 300 baud symbol rate. Thus, all past development has been severely limited, while those who control the expansion and collapse of our spectrum by mode operations could care less, even if they were aware of these issues. After all, future expansion is not within their radar. If it were, these impossibly small digital segments would be optimal for enhancing the Amateur service opportunity to develop more efficient and effective means of communicating. It is with these considerations in mind that I highly recommend the expansion of digital band segmentation throughout the HF spectrum. THINK about any other operation being squeezed into such a minute band space. How about putting the SSB DX segment within these small segments and see what comments you receive? But wait, those segments are important to the grass roots efforts. After all, future development toward digital communications is only a concept to most, not a reality. However, without it, we will continue to remain antiquated and vulnerable in the eyes of those who determine our future. Steve Waterman, K4CJX Winlink Network Administrator Winlink Development Team Assistant Director, ARRL Delta Division Army MARS National Automation Coordinator/Agency Liaison COML
[digitalradio] Re: Has anyone tried the WINMOR keyboarding?
Andy, Keyboarding is in the Winmor TNC. It has been added to the s/w in N3ZH_Software yahoo group Files section. I suspect it won't be as good as Olivia in bad conditions. Howard --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Andy obrien k3uka...@... wrote: I have the latest version and do not see any keboard method in WINMOR. Andy K3UK On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Howard Z howar...@... wrote: Hi, Has anyone tried the WINMOR keyboarding mode - no ARQ using FEC? How does it compare to Olivia? Howard
