RE: Word Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or Word?)

[Diane Gaskill]

Grant, all,

What Steve said is unfortunately true.  We tried it and it simply does not
work correctly. Reporting it to MS several times did not result in any
fixes.  Yes, they knew about it.  No, they did not know when it would be
fixed.  And I add, if ever.  Perhaps the information below will explain
why.

A few years ago, I managed a tech pubs department at a company in Palo Alto,
CA. We had a remote office in Redmond, WA, about half a mile from the MS
headquarters.  I hired two writers who had previously worked for MS.  During
the interviews, I mentioned that we used FM and they would need to learn it.
They responded that they already knew FM because they used it at MS.

Yes, you read that correctly.  MS was using FM, not Word, to produce large
documents.  Now, however, I understand from a long-time member of this list
who just joined MS, that they are using a home-grown XML-based authoring
tool.  Based on that, I assume that MS is still not using Word for long
docs.  I expect that the product managers at MS are fully aware of Word's
limitations and know that the Word user community is too.  Unfortunately,
there are many VPs who do not know this and attempt to force their people to
use Word for everything.  Only when major deadlines are missed because the
docs cannot be stabilized, do they begin to realize that Word is not the
be-all, end-all, and it is not really free after all.

Diane

===

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Steve Rickaby
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 10:40 AM
To: framers@FrameUsers.com
Cc: Grant Hogarth
Subject: RE: Word  Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or
Word?)


At 08:34 -0600 19/5/06, Grant Hogarth wrote:

3. Use a Master Document

Afaik it is universally agreed in the Word community that master documents
are irretrievably broken

--
Steve
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Word & Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or Word?)

[Diane Gaskill]

Grant, all,

What Steve said is unfortunately true.  We tried it and it simply does not
work correctly. Reporting it to MS several times did not result in any
fixes.  Yes, they knew about it.  No, they did not know when it would be
fixed.  And I add, "if ever."  Perhaps the information below will explain
why.

A few years ago, I managed a tech pubs department at a company in Palo Alto,
CA. We had a remote office in Redmond, WA, about half a mile from the MS
headquarters.  I hired two writers who had previously worked for MS.  During
the interviews, I mentioned that we used FM and they would need to learn it.
They responded that they already knew FM because they used it at MS.

Yes, you read that correctly.  MS was using FM, not Word, to produce large
documents.  Now, however, I understand from a long-time member of this list
who just joined MS, that they are using a home-grown XML-based authoring
tool.  Based on that, I assume that MS is still not using Word for long
docs.  I expect that the product managers at MS are fully aware of Word's
limitations and know that the Word user community is too.  Unfortunately,
there are many VPs who do not know this and attempt to force their people to
use Word for everything.  Only when major deadlines are missed because the
docs cannot be stabilized, do they begin to realize that Word is not the
be-all, end-all, and it is not really "free" after all.

Diane

===

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+dgcaller=earthlink@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+dgcaller=earthlink.net at lists.frameusers.com]On
Behalf Of Steve Rickaby
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 10:40 AM
To: framers at FrameUsers.com
Cc: Grant Hogarth
Subject: RE: Word & Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or
Word?)


At 08:34 -0600 19/5/06, Grant Hogarth wrote:

>3. Use a Master Document

Afaik it is universally agreed in the Word community that master documents
are irretrievably broken

--
Steve
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RE: Word Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or Word?)

[Grant Hogarth]

Here is a recent piece from informit.com's Productivity Applications
articles (http://tinyurl.com/pt6fr) on working with long docs.
Obviously, we won't agree on all of the tips, but hey -- one size does
not always fit all!  g

Grant
=
Word 2003: Six Slick Tricks for Long Docs 

If you've ever juggled really long documents in Word, you know that they
can cause problems, particularly in the last-minute run for a deadline.
Laurie Rowell tells you how to manage these monsters, reduce stress,
finish faster, and minimize lockups.

Tips: 

1.  Draft a Set of Specifications   
2.  Use Outline View 
3.  Use a Master Document 
4.  Navigate with Big Picture Tools   
5.  Trim the Size of Graphic Content  
6.  Trim Versions and Saves 

LINK: http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=467167

Source: informit.com's Productivity Applications Articles
http://www.informit.com/articles/index.asp?st=41293l=1 

-Original Message-
From: Diane Gaskill
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 6:12 AM
To: framers@FrameUsers.com
Subject: RE: Career advice--which application to focus on: FM or Word?

Word is also a memory hog.  It uses more than twice as much RAM as FM at
launch and sucks up more as time goes on.  It often runs out of memory
and sends error messages about no longer letting you undo anything.  If
you are working in a Word doc over 150 pages or so, you are definitely
taking chances and are likely to experience Word literally slowing down
and eventually grinding to a halt.

The Word autonumbering bug is horrendous to put it nicely.  Bulleted and
numbered lists are reformatted for you while you sleep (whether you want
them to be or not).  When you open the doc again, numbers have changed
to bullets, numeric lists are now alpha lists and start with e instead
of 1, or if you are lucky and they are still numbered, they start with
430 instead of 1.

This is not a joke folks, I see this every day at work.  We have created
some workarounds, but to answer Steve's question, it is NOT worth it.
Fortunately, we have also have FM, and are beginning to convince the
powers that be how much more stable and efficient FM is.

Diane
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RE: Word Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or Word?)

[Fred Ridder]

=
Word 2003: Six Slick Tricks for Long Docs


snip


3.  Use a Master Document


Now *there's* a piece of advice I will *never*, *EVER* follow.
I lost a week of my life to retyping (and re-drawing figures for)
an entire product manual that the product designer had written
in Word using the then-new Master Document feature. Never
again will I take that risk, no matter how many times Microsoft
tells me that all the bugs have been fixed. (Look how well
they've done fixing the bugs in the autonumbering feature...)

My opinions only; I don't speak for Intel.
Fred Ridder
Intel
Parsippany, NJ

_
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/


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RE: Word Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or Word?)

[Grant Hogarth]

Oh, I agree!!! Word's 'Master docs' are from one of the sub-basements of
hell.
A disused one at that, to judge how little effort has apparently gone
into fixing the long-known problems of that feature.

I almost did not send the post on because of that suggestion, but the
others in it made sense, so I decided to let the commons decide. g

Grant


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Fred Ridder
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 9:40 AM
To: framers@FrameUsers.com
Subject: RE: Word  Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or
Word?)

=
Word 2003: Six Slick Tricks for Long Docs

snip

3. Use a Master Document

Now *there's* a piece of advice I will *never*, *EVER* follow.
I lost a week of my life to retyping (and re-drawing figures for) an
entire product manual that the product designer had written in Word
using the then-new Master Document feature. Never again will I take that
risk, no matter how many times Microsoft tells me that all the bugs have
been fixed. (Look how well they've done fixing the bugs in the
autonumbering feature...)

My opinions only; I don't speak for Intel.
Fred Ridder
Intel
Parsippany, NJ

_
Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

___


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To find out more about Reuters visit www.about.reuters.com

Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
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Reuters Ltd.

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RE: Word Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or Word?)

[Steve Rickaby]

At 08:34 -0600 19/5/06, Grant Hogarth wrote:

3. Use a Master Document

Afaik it is universally agreed in the Word community that master documents are 
irretrievably broken

-- 
Steve
___


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Word & Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or Word?)

[Grant Hogarth]

Here is a recent piece from informit.com's "Productivity Applications"
articles (http://tinyurl.com/pt6fr) on working with long docs.
Obviously, we won't agree on all of the tips, but hey -- one size does
not always fit all!  

Grant
=
Word 2003: Six Slick Tricks for Long Docs 

If you've ever juggled really long documents in Word, you know that they
can cause problems, particularly in the last-minute run for a deadline.
Laurie Rowell tells you how to manage these monsters, reduce stress,
finish faster, and minimize lockups.

Tips: 

1.  Draft a Set of Specifications   
2.  Use Outline View 
3.  Use a Master Document 
4.  Navigate with "Big Picture" Tools   
5.  Trim the Size of Graphic Content  
6.  Trim Versions and Saves 

LINK: 

Source: informit.com's Productivity Applications Articles
 

-Original Message-
From: Diane Gaskill
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 6:12 AM
To: framers at FrameUsers.com
Subject: RE: Career advice--which application to focus on: FM or Word?

Word is also a memory hog.  It uses more than twice as much RAM as FM at
launch and sucks up more as time goes on.  It often runs out of memory
and sends error messages about no longer letting you undo anything.  If
you are working in a Word doc over 150 pages or so, you are definitely
taking chances and are likely to experience Word literally slowing down
and eventually grinding to a halt.

The Word autonumbering bug is horrendous to put it nicely.  Bulleted and
numbered lists are reformatted for you while you sleep (whether you want
them to be or not).  When you open the doc again, numbers have changed
to bullets, numeric lists are now alpha lists and start with e instead
of 1, or if you are lucky and they are still numbered, they start with
430 instead of 1.

This is not a joke folks, I see this every day at work.  We have created
some workarounds, but to answer Steve's question, it is NOT worth it.
Fortunately, we have also have FM, and are beginning to convince the
powers that be how much more stable and efficient FM is.

Diane

Word & Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or Word?)

[Fred Ridder]

>=
>Word 2003: Six Slick Tricks for Long Docs



>3. Use a Master Document

Now *there's* a piece of advice I will *never*, *EVER* follow.
I lost a week of my life to retyping (and re-drawing figures for)
an entire product manual that the product designer had written
in Word using the then-new Master Document feature. Never
again will I take that risk, no matter how many times Microsoft
tells me that all the bugs have been fixed. (Look how well
they've done fixing the bugs in the autonumbering feature...)

My opinions only; I don't speak for Intel.
Fred Ridder
Intel
Parsippany, NJ

_
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

Word & Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or Word?)

[Grant Hogarth]

Oh, I agree!!! Word's 'Master docs' are from one of the sub-basements of
hell.
A disused one at that, to judge how little effort has apparently gone
into fixing the long-known problems of that "feature".

I almost did not send the post on because of that suggestion, but the
others in it made sense, so I decided to let the commons decide. 

Grant


-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+grant.hogarth=reuters@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+grant.hogarth=reuters.com at lists.frameusers.com]
On Behalf Of Fred Ridder
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 9:40 AM
To: framers at FrameUsers.com
Subject: RE: Word & Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or
Word?)

>=
>Word 2003: Six Slick Tricks for Long Docs



>3. Use a Master Document

Now *there's* a piece of advice I will *never*, *EVER* follow.
I lost a week of my life to retyping (and re-drawing figures for) an
entire product manual that the product designer had written in Word
using the then-new Master Document feature. Never again will I take that
risk, no matter how many times Microsoft tells me that all the bugs have
been fixed. (Look how well they've done fixing the bugs in the
autonumbering feature...)

My opinions only; I don't speak for Intel.
Fred Ridder
Intel
Parsippany, NJ

_
Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

___


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Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender,
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Reuters Ltd.

Word & Long Docs (WAS re: Career advice-- focus on FM or Word?)

[Steve Rickaby]

At 08:34 -0600 19/5/06, Grant Hogarth wrote:

>3. Use a Master Document

Afaik it is universally agreed in the Word community that master documents are 
irretrievably broken

-- 
Steve