Re: Vivaldi Tablet
I position a tablet as a consumer device. Web surfing, watching video, a
little texting. A student slate must support creativity, especially
writing. At the same time I see the qwerty keyboard as an obstacle, hard to
learn, impossible to use while holding the slate. I want HWR as good as the
Newton, and buttons for a chording keyboard along the bottom on both sides.
Buttons support two handed use or one handed, either side. For those who
prefer classic keyboard, plug in a USB model.
So much of what I want just isn't there. But it is possible.
Gary Dunn
Open Slate Project
http://openslate.org/
On Mar 27, 2012 9:46 AM, Gary Kline kl...@thought.org wrote:
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:28:50AM +1000, Da Rock wrote:
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:28:50 +1000
From: Da Rock freebsd-questi...@herveybayaustralia.com.au
Subject: Re: Vivaldi Tablet
To: Chuck Swiger cswi...@mac.com
Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
On 03/27/12 09:32, Chuck Swiger wrote:
On Mar 26, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Da Rock wrote:
To ex...
you guys have any thoughts about a tiny {7} keyboard
plugin? i'm wondering if my VBC project might work with
this tablet. i've never seen a keyboard that small. nice
tablet, tho.
gary
PS: i keep looking for tablets with a real keyboard. not
very much. So far... .
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Voice By Computer (for Universal Access): http:/www.thought.org/vbc
The 8.57a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org
Twenty-five years of service to the Unix community.
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need info builing ports properly
Hi, I am fairly new to fbsd and not a linux user, just windows and osx. My first install was version 7.1 for a short while and had 7.2, but only just came back to it with 9.0-r (amd64). I have a bit of an issue with the port system and was hoping to get some basic info as to what i might be doing wrong or missing before i go mess up my install. Basically, i know the basics of installing, maintaining ports, etc, but I seem to always end up with a rather flakey system, apps not running properly and so on. The one time I was really happy with my system is when i had tinderbox set up (on ver 7.x) and built everything in there, but was still using the same make.conf options in there as my /etc/make.conf I only ever had this option set CFLAGS= -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe and have tried without anything in /etc/make.conf ( apart from perl version entry from the port). So far i have never concerned myself while ldconfig or related stuff, as i am green on that, and have always had either default or whatever gets updated automatically. Would that be an issue, or my only issue? is there something else i need to set up properly on my system, or are my fingers just too big for my keyboard? At the moment i have 9.0-r installed, using packages only, with un-updated ports (so i can delete/add packages with portupgrade -PP and have no version issues), then i have tinderbox set up again, with latest ports tree (csup'ed last night) and plan to rebuild all the packages i'm using, but i don't want to have to avoid straight make install clean for every small thing later. Can someone give me some direction? I am still learning to use fbsd, and starting C, so i dont mind reading/testing. I dont mind running pkg_delete -fav every other day either atm. Thanks in advance ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: need info builing ports properly
My first suggestion is to begin using portmaster which can be found here: /usr/ports/ports-mgmt/portmaster My second suggestion is to please never ever ever mess with CFLAGS on FreeBSD. You can get away with it on some Linux distros, but FreeBSD strongly discourages it. My third suggestion is to keep at it and keep asking questions because we'd be glad to help :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: need info builing ports properly
On 03/28/12 16:22, Mark Felder wrote: My first suggestion is to begin using portmaster which can be found here: /usr/ports/ports-mgmt/portmaster My second suggestion is to please never ever ever mess with CFLAGS on FreeBSD. You can get away with it on some Linux distros, but FreeBSD strongly discourages it. My third suggestion is to keep at it and keep asking questions because we'd be glad to help :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org Thanks for your quick reply, but can you clarify what you mean about not messing with the CFLAGS? I mean I had only ever used that one setting taken from the example in /usr/share/examples/etc/make.conf, and the only experimentation i did is either with it in make.conf, or nothing at all. Do mean its proper not to have it at all in /etc/make.conf or about changing it's values? At the moment my /etc/make.conf just has 1 line with the Perl version entry, should i always leave cflags out? thanks, ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Vivaldi Tablet
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 09:05:19PM -1000, Open Slate wrote: I position a tablet as a consumer device. Web surfing, watching video, a little texting. A student slate must support creativity, especially writing. At the same time I see the qwerty keyboard as an obstacle, hard to learn, impossible to use while holding the slate. I want HWR as good as the Newton, and buttons for a chording keyboard along the bottom on both sides. Buttons support two handed use or one handed, either side. For those who prefer classic keyboard, plug in a USB model. I think learning a chording keyboard is going to be much more of an obstacle than using a QWERTY keyboard, considering you can hunt-and-peck on a QWERTY keyboard, but you have to know the chords to do anything on a chording keyboard. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: need info builing ports properly
On Wed, 28 Mar 2012, icemac wrote: I only ever had this option set CFLAGS= -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe Setting that in make.conf is counterproductive. First, those are the defaults, so they don't improve anything. Second, that overrides settings made elsewhere. Consider a port like Gimp, which wants to use special CFLAGS for better performance. But it can't, because make.conf forces those CFLAGS. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: need info builing ports properly
On 03/28/12 17:30, Warren Block wrote: On Wed, 28 Mar 2012, icemac wrote: I only ever had this option set CFLAGS= -O2 -fno-strict-aliasing -pipe Setting that in make.conf is counterproductive. First, those are the defaults, so they don't improve anything. Second, that overrides settings made elsewhere. Consider a port like Gimp, which wants to use special CFLAGS for better performance. But it can't, because make.conf forces those CFLAGS. Ok, thanks. i had misunderstood the procedure then. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: need info builing ports properly
On 28/03/2012 15:40, icemac wrote: Thanks for your quick reply, but can you clarify what you mean about not messing with the CFLAGS? I mean I had only ever used that one setting taken from the example in /usr/share/examples/etc/make.conf, and the only experimentation i did is either with it in make.conf, or nothing at all. Modifying CFLAGS like that is something that sounds attractive; an easy win in making your system perform better. However, you should ask yourself if it's really such a good idea, then why isn't it already the default? I can tell you that if there weren't some significant downsides to maxing out the optimization levels, then that would certainly be the case. In actuality, the optimization level (-O2, etc) has an inconsistent effect and is very much dependent on the nature of the code being compiled. In fact, for the FreeBSD kernel specifically it is known that it can be counter-productive. Much of the time for ports, it doesn't really make a great deal of difference what the setting is. Ports that can benefit will frequently have OPTIONS to turn up the optimization level, to be set on a per-port basis. One of the few things that is known to have a generally beneficial effect is to set the CPUTYPE variable appropriately. You can just say: CPUTYPE=native and the compiler will work out exactly what CPU you have automatically. The downside, of course, is that you make anything compiled on your system specific to particular CPU variants, so it's not something that could be done for software intended to be generally installable anywhere. Do mean its proper not to have it at all in /etc/make.conf or about changing it's values? Setting CFLAGS is not really improper, but it is not the panacea many people seem to think it is. It takes patience, plenty of trial and error, a deep understanding of compilers and so forth to achieve much. At the moment my /etc/make.conf just has 1 line with the Perl version entry, should i always leave cflags out? I think that not setting CLFAGS would be sensible. There's plenty of other stuff you can fiddle with in /etc/make.conf or /etc/src.conf if that's what interests you. OTOH, the default settings are pretty good and leaving well alone will help you get a put together a stable and reliable system without excessive pain. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: need info builing ports properly
On 03/28/12 18:52, Matthew Seaman wrote: On 28/03/2012 15:40, icemac wrote: At the moment my /etc/make.conf just has 1 line with the Perl version entry, should i always leave cflags out? I think that not setting CLFAGS would be sensible. There's plenty of other stuff you can fiddle with in /etc/make.conf or /etc/src.conf if that's what interests you. OTOH, the default settings are pretty good and leaving well alone will help you get a put together a stable and reliable system without excessive pain. Cheers, Matthew Ok, i get it now thanks to these replies. I wasn't after fiddling or optimizing much and just want to to build ports i need and have them as reliable and stable as possibile, but i misunderstood the function of that setting in make.conf. I actually had thought that that was required and in turn assumed, ( in retrospect) , that the defaults would be more aggressive and that that setting would restrict any wild optimization. also didnt realize it was an override to all. thanks. p.s. So this was probably the reason for my flakey setups? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Please help me diagnose this crazy VMWare/FreeBSD 8.x crash
Alright guys, I'm at the end of my rope here. For those that haven't seen my previous emails here's the (not so) quick breakdown: Overview: FreeBSD ?? - 7.4 never crash FreeBSD 8.0 - 8.2 crashes FreeBSD 8-STABLE, 8.3, and 9.0 are untested (Sorry, not possible in our production at this time, and we were hoping we could base some stuff on 8.3 for long term stability...) ESXi: Confirmed ESXi 4.0 - 5.0 has this problem. Haven't tested on others. History: Over the course of the last 2 years we've been banging our heads on the wall. VMWare is done debugging this. They claim it's not a VMWare issue. They can't identify what the heck happens. We had a glimmer of hope with ESXi 5.0 fixing it because we never saw any crashes in the handful of deployments, but our dreams were crushed today -- two days before an outage to begin migration to ESXi 5.0 -- when a customer's ESXi 5.0 server and FreeBSD 8.2 guest crashed. Crash Details: The keyboard/mouse usually stops responding for input on the console; normally we can't type in a username or password. However, we can switch VTs. If there's a shell on the console and we can type, we can only run things in memory. Any time we try to access the disk it will hang indefinitely. The server still has network access. We can ping it without issue. SSH of course kicks you out because it can't do any I/O. If we were to serve a lightweight http server off a memory backed filesystem I'm confident it would run just fine as long as it wasn't logging or anything. On ESXi you see that there is a CPU spike of 100% that goes on indefinitely. No idea what the FreeBSD OS itself thinks it is doing because we can't run top during the crash. This crash can affect a server and happen multiple times a week. It can also not show up for 180 days or more. But it does happen. The server can be 100% idle and crash. We have servers that do more I/O than the ones that crash could ever attempt to do and these don't crash at all. Completely inexplicable. Things we've looked into: Nothing about the installed software matters. We've tried cross referencing the crashed servers by the programs they run but the base OS is the only common denominator due to the wide variety of servers it has affected. Storage doesn't matter. We've tried different iSCSI SANs, we've tried different switches, we've tried local datastores on the ESXi servers themselves. HP servers, Dell servers -- doesn't seem to matter either. (All with latest firmwares, BIOSes, etc) VMWare gave us a ton of debugging tasks, and we've given them gigabytes of debugging info and data; they can't find anything. VMWare tools -- with, without, using open-vm-tools makes no difference. I think we've done a fair job ruling out VMWare. I think we've finally found enough data that this is definitely something in the FreeBSD world. I'm going to begin prepping some of the known crashy servers with more debugging. Any suggestions on what I should build the kernel with? They never do a proper panic, but I definitely want to at least *try* to get into the debugger the next time it crashes. And when it crashes, what the heck should I be running? I've never played with the KDB before... Thank you for any suggestions and help you can give me ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Vivaldi Tablet
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 09:19:54AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:19:54 -0600 From: Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com Subject: Re: Vivaldi Tablet To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 09:05:19PM -1000, Open Slate wrote: I position a tablet as a consumer device. Web surfing, watching video, a little texting. A student slate must support creativity, especially writing. At the same time I see the qwerty keyboard as an obstacle, hard to learn, impossible to use while holding the slate. I want HWR as good as the Newton, and buttons for a chording keyboard along the bottom on both sides. Buttons support two handed use or one handed, either side. For those who prefer classic keyboard, plug in a USB model. I think learning a chording keyboard is going to be much more of an obstacle than using a QWERTY keyboard, considering you can hunt-and-peck on a QWERTY keyboard, but you have to know the chords to do anything on a chording keyboard. i dont have a clue what a chording keybd is; will google after a long nap1 also, i have lost track of who posted the 'fentek' page, but that is where i got my present mine. i v much like this vivaldi 7 tablet, just as-is. i wonder if a future 7inch model could have more memory Along with a slide-in kybd. slide out and work: edit, use ffox, konsole or xterms, then slide back in place. this tablet could replace the ipad, nook, asus. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix Voice By Computer (for Universal Access): http:/www.thought.org/vbc The 8.57a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org Twenty-five years of service to the Unix community. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Please help me diagnose this crazy VMWare/FreeBSD 8.x crash
Hi, * have you filed a PR? * is the crash easily reproducable? * are you able to boot some ramdisk-only FreeBSD-8.2 images (eg create a ramdisk image using nanobsd?) and do some stress testing inside that? It sounds like you've established it's a storage issue, or at least interrupt handling for storage issue. So I'd definitely try the ramdisk-only boot and thrash it using lighttpd/httperf or something. If that survives fine, I'd look at trying to establish whether there's something wrong in the disk driver(s) freebsd is using. I'm not that cluey on ESXi, but there may be some PIC/APIC/ACPI change between 7.x and 8.0 which has caused this to surface. 2c, Adrian ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Vivaldi Tablet
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 04:24:51PM -0700, Gary Kline wrote: On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 09:19:54AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: I think learning a chording keyboard is going to be much more of an obstacle than using a QWERTY keyboard, considering you can hunt-and-peck on a QWERTY keyboard, but you have to know the chords to do anything on a chording keyboard. i dont have a clue what a chording keybd is; will google after a long nap1 also, i have lost track of who posted the 'fentek' page, but that is where i got my present mine. A chording keyboard is a keyboard or other button-press interface with fewer keys so it can fit on a smaller device, where many keycodes are gotten by way of combining presses of multiple keys rather than a single key as on a standard QWERTY keyboard. Thus, for instance, where on a QWERTY keyboard you get a capital A by holding the Shift key and pressing the A key, you might on a chording keyboard also get a lower-case A by holding down some key and pressing another key. This works for keyboards with fewer keys because there are many potential combinations of keys that could be used; if all keycodes are achieved by a two-button chord, all the keys on a standard 101-key keyboard, plus all Alt-, Shift-, and Ctrl-chord keycodes, could be simulated by a mere twenty keys. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Vivaldi Tablet
The Twiddler 2.1 keyboard is a good example of a chorded keyboard. It became popular with wearable computers where the user wore a heads-up augmented reality type display. Cheers...Fish 28.03.12, 19:25, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com: On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 04:24:51PM -0700, Gary Kline wrote: On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 09:19:54AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: I think learning a chording keyboard is going to be much more of an obstacle than using a QWERTY keyboard, considering you can hunt-and-peck on a QWERTY keyboard, but you have to know the chords to do anything on a chording keyboard. i dont have a clue what a chording keybd is; will google after a long nap1 also, i have lost track of who posted the 'fentek' page, but that is where i got my present mine. A chording keyboard is a keyboard or other button-press interface with fewer keys so it can fit on a smaller device, where many keycodes are gotten by way of combining presses of multiple keys rather than a single key as on a standard QWERTY keyboard. Thus, for instance, where on a QWERTY keyboard you get a capital A by holding the Shift key and pressing the A key, you might on a chording keyboard also get a lower-case A by holding down some key and pressing another key. This works for keyboards with fewer keys because there are many potential combinations of keys that could be used; if all keycodes are achieved by a two-button chord, all the keys on a standard 101-key keyboard, plus all Alt-, Shift-, and Ctrl-chord keycodes, could be simulated by a mere twenty keys. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org -- Sent from Yandex.Mail for mobile: http://m.ya.ru/ymail ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Vivaldi Tablet
On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:24:40 -0600 Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 04:24:51PM -0700, Gary Kline wrote: On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 09:19:54AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: I think learning a chording keyboard is going to be much more of an obstacle than using a QWERTY keyboard, considering you can hunt-and-peck on a QWERTY keyboard, but you have to know the chords to do anything on a chording keyboard. i dont have a clue what a chording keybd is; will google after a long nap1 also, i have lost track of who posted the 'fentek' page, but that is where i got my present mine. A chording keyboard is a keyboard or other button-press interface with fewer keys so it can fit on a smaller device, where many keycodes are gotten by way of combining presses of multiple keys rather than a single key as on a standard QWERTY keyboard. Thus, for instance, where on a QWERTY keyboard you get a capital A by holding the Shift key and pressing the A key, you might on a chording keyboard also get a lower-case A by holding down some key and pressing another key. This works for keyboards with fewer keys because there are many potential combinations of keys that could be used; if all keycodes are achieved by a two-button chord, all the keys on a standard 101-key keyboard, plus all Alt-, Shift-, and Ctrl-chord keycodes, could be simulated by a mere twenty keys. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org I saw a demo of a device about 30 years ago that you held in one hand. It had about five buttons positioned under your fingers, and various combinations would produce all the regular characters. They claimed you could learn to use it in a few hours, and would be as fast as a typist. It didn't survive, and I can't remember what it was called. I thought it was a great invention - shows how wrong one can be. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Vivaldi Tablet
On Wed, 28 Mar 2012, Mike Jeays wrote: I saw a demo of a device about 30 years ago that you held in one hand. It had about five buttons positioned under your fingers, and various combinations would produce all the regular characters. Sounds like learning to play the saxophone. -- Chris Hill ch...@monochrome.org ** [ Busy Expunging / ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: need info builing ports properly
On Wed, 28 Mar 2012, icemac wrote: I wasn't after fiddling or optimizing much and just want to to build ports i need and have them as reliable and stable as possibile, but i misunderstood the function of that setting in make.conf. I actually had thought that that was required and in turn assumed, ( in retrospect) , that the defaults would be more aggressive and that that setting would restrict any wild optimization. also didnt realize it was an override to all. thanks. p.s. So this was probably the reason for my flakey setups? Possible but unlikely. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
