Adoble Flash troubles on 9.2-RELEASE

2013-10-12 Thread David Demelier
Hi,

The current linux-f10-flashplugin-11.2r202.310 version has some troubles
on my machine (with Firefox).

Sometimes, when a flash component is displayed and you scroll a bit the
window the flash break and goes grey, you're forced to reload the page.

I'm using the Intel new KMS driver if that matters, note that it never
happened on my 9.1-RELEASE.

Is anyone having a similar issue?

Regards,

David.
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Re: Adoble Flash troubles on 9.2-RELEASE

2013-10-12 Thread Ralf Mardorf
If you really need to visit sites that need Adobe Flash, you perhaps
should use the google-chrome browser. For some websites with flash
content, we don't need flash anymore, just modern HTML5 capable web
browsers. For *nix there never will be a current version for flashplayer
again.

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Re: Adoble Flash troubles on 9.2-RELEASE

2013-10-12 Thread David Demelier
On 12.10.2013 11:02, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 If you really need to visit sites that need Adobe Flash, you perhaps
 should use the google-chrome browser. For some websites with flash
 content, we don't need flash anymore, just modern HTML5 capable web
 browsers. For *nix there never will be a current version for flashplayer
 again.
 

Yes I know that adobe flash player for *nix is gone but I'm guessing why
it worked well so much before..

I don't like much chrome but I'll give a try to see.

Thanks for the hint!

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Re: Adoble Flash troubles on 9.2-RELEASE

2013-10-12 Thread Ralf Mardorf
On Sat, 2013-10-12 at 11:52 +0200, David Demelier wrote:
 I don't like much chrome but I'll give a try to see.

+1 It's not a browser I like.

Since I'm using my computer for audio production my FreeBSD isn't
maintained, I need to use Linux, so I don't know if Chrome is available
for FreeBSD. When I google (resp. startpage.com search) for FreeBSD and
Chrome, it seems to be that the hits aren't about Chrome, but Chromium
instead.

Chromium doesn't include Adobe Flash,
https://code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/ChromiumBrowserVsGoogleChrome .

Sorry for the noise.

At least we could use Adobe Flash by Chrome with FreeBSD in a virtual
machine running a Linux instead of a Windows guest. Or is Chrome
available for FreeBSD too?

Perhaps you should post the links that don't work with the latest Linux
version of Adobe Flash, so others could test if the issue is really
caused by Flash Player and not by something else.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: Do I really have to install 80 packages?

2013-10-12 Thread Walter Hurry
On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 05:31:56 +0200, Polytropon wrote:

 On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 17:54:24 -0400, Glenn Sieb wrote:
 On 10/11/13 5:38 PM, Walter Hurry wrote:
  FreeBSD 9.1
  
  I want ONE shared lib; i.e. rsvg.so, which is provided by
  x11-toolkits/py-gnome-desktop.
  
  Unfortunately, it seems that going the normal route I shall have to
  install 80! ports to get it. Is there an easier way?
 
 Actually I think you want x11-toolkits/gtk20..? Would pkg_add work for
 you?
 
 Maybe graphics/librsvg2 is better suited (even though it's version 2 of
 the library). The problem initially mentions will remain: lots of
 installation dependencies. Sadly, that seems to be normal today as
 modern software tends to rely on layers of libraries of abstraction of
 tools of utilities of stuff of layers of layers of other abstractions.
 :-)
 
 As you see: gnome-desktop and gtk20. That should bring your warning
 lights up: lots of dependencies ahead!
 
 When you try to install a simple desktop environment, you'll be
 confronted with hundreds of packages to be installed, some of them
 you've probably never had thought of in regards of what you need to
 install a desktop, such as two or more different databases, LaTeX,
 translators, and other surprising stuff. This will probably apply to
 most complex components and parts of desktop environments or X11
 toolkits (as mentioned above).
 
 As I mentioned, the librsvg2 port will install lib/librsvg-2.so.
 It might require you to re-install your target application to link
 against that library.
 
 A library libsvg.so (without version number) doesn't seem to be in the
 ports tree by that name.
 
 My lazy man's method of searching what port might contain the library:
 Midnight Commander, go to /usr/ports, Meta-?, seach in pkg-plist,
 search for text librsvg and examine the results with PF3. This method
 relies on approaches that might be wrong... :-)
 
 Note that my (locally installed) ports tree is not up to date anymore so
 you should consider performing a search on a recent tree to make sure I
 didn't miss anything.

Thanks Polytropon, but the one I needed was this:

x11-toolkits/py-gnome-desktop/pkg-plist:%%PYTHON_SITELIBDIR%%/gtk-2.0/
rsvg.so

I have given in, let it install all 80 ports, saved the one shlib I need 
and deleted the ports again. All is now well.

By the way, I needed it for the 'screenlets' Python applications; in 
particular ClockScreenlet.py.

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FreeBSD, Centos and ZFS

2013-10-12 Thread aurfalien
Hi,

I would like to first say that by no means is this a hey, why is my Mac faster 
then my PC kind of email.

I'm really hoping its an LSI driver issue.

My hardware;

39 SATA drives via SAS expanders
2 SSD for ZIL
2 SSD for L2Arc
128GB ECC Ram
Intel 2400SC Mobo
2 Xeon E5 Hexacore procs
2 LSI 9207 HBAs
1 LSI 9206 HBA

I've 13 vdev RaidZ setup.

Not a super system, but not a shabby one either.

Used local (non network) IOzone and dd tests for some simple prelim testing 
just to gauge were I'm at with this bad boy.

My ZFS tunables are the same BTW as I did some tweaks.

My CentOS 6.4 box is a solid 20-30% faster then my FreeBSD 9.2 box.  I've the 
graphs if any one is interested.

But I'm hoping that some one has ran into this and that yes, there are some 
tweaks one can do to the LSI driver?  I guess?  Perhaps a sysctl value?

I didn't want to vomit too much info in my first email about this so yes, its 
meant to be some what general with some decent info to get the dialogue started.

Many thanks in advance for any insight.

Linux is not an option as it does not return pre attributes on write replies 
which is important in our mostly NFS env.

- aurf


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Re: FreeBSD, Centos and ZFS

2013-10-12 Thread Mark Felder
On Sat, Oct 12, 2013, at 10:53, aurfalien wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I would like to first say that by no means is this a hey, why is my Mac
 faster then my PC kind of email.
 
 I'm really hoping its an LSI driver issue.
 

It may very well be an LSI firmware issue. What are the firmwares for
those HBAs?
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Re: Do I really have to install 80 packages?

2013-10-12 Thread gct7photography
I don't know what others think, but what *I* really want is that the
free software versions of Flash (gnash and klash, etc) work at least as
well as versions of Adobe Flash do, or if versions of Adobe Flash are
to be used, that it will be free and covered by the GPL.

Its unlikely to happen unless we start a campaign among the Free
Software users of the world to make Flash free software.

Yes, I know HTML 5 is just around the corner, but we've seen a
concerted effort already (in the European Parliament at least) to
introduce DRM into HTML 5 and though it may make using Flash marginally
easier, it would be a retrograde step if DRM is to be introduced.

So what are we left with?  Free software to replicate what Flash
does (at least) that does not have the taint of proprietary software?
Is that not an achievable goal?

I can't code but would be willing to join a project with those
achievable goals, but it hasn't appeared yet, so I don't seriously
expect it will happen any time soon.

++ Graham Todd


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature


Re: FreeBSD, Centos and ZFS

2013-10-12 Thread aurfalien

On Oct 12, 2013, at 10:56 AM, Mark Felder wrote:

 On Sat, Oct 12, 2013, at 10:53, aurfalien wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I would like to first say that by no means is this a hey, why is my Mac
 faster then my PC kind of email.
 
 I'm really hoping its an LSI driver issue.
 
 
 It may very well be an LSI firmware issue. What are the firmwares for
 those HBAs?

Well, the 2 LSI 9207s are rebadge Intel being Intel RS25GB008 ( 
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/servers/raid/raid-controller-rs25gb008.html
 ) with the latest Intel firmware.

The lone 9206-16e has the latest LSI firmware.

Shall I downgrade to a particular version?

I would love to resolve this performance oddity.

Thanks for getting back to me, I know its a weird one with an annoying subject 
as its apples and oranges.

I would be happy to get you exact info of anything I have, so feel free.

- aurf
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Re: FreeBSD, Centos and ZFS

2013-10-12 Thread aurfalien

On Oct 12, 2013, at 10:56 AM, Mark Felder wrote:

 On Sat, Oct 12, 2013, at 10:53, aurfalien wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I would like to first say that by no means is this a hey, why is my Mac
 faster then my PC kind of email.
 
 I'm really hoping its an LSI driver issue.
 
 
 It may very well be an LSI firmware issue. What are the firmwares for
 those HBAs?

I'll get you the exact firmware revs on Monday.

I can look on there site but would rather boot and record the exact numbers 
from there.

- aurf
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Re: what kind of freeBSD to download for my pc?

2013-10-12 Thread cikitaluzza
can i run exe files on freeBSD?it spoils fast or not?this question comes from 
fastest ever spoil OS windows which always spoil in a week seven times i think 
with things like errors or dll and many things from blue screen.do you have any 
problems within freeBSD or no problems?i dont like blue screen error or driver 
things and no matter what .how much total ram and bit is my pc of amd 
athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core processor 4000+ 2.11 GHz 960 MB RAM?im always in 
internet watching live camers,what do you suggest me to use os type?i like to 
save pictures and videos and never lost them,if you think your os is gonna 
spoil and lost my all files then i dont need it.i want stable os and never to 
reinstall or update



On Sunday, October 13, 2013 2:44 AM, cikitaluzza cikita100...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
what kind of freeBSD to download for my pc?amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core 
processor 4000+ 2.11 GHz 960 MB RAM
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what kind of freeBSD to download for my pc?

2013-10-12 Thread cikitaluzza
what kind of freeBSD to download for my pc?amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core 
processor 4000+ 2.11 GHz 960 MB RAM
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Re: what kind of freeBSD to download for my pc?

2013-10-12 Thread Polytropon
On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 16:44:09 -0700 (PDT), cikitaluzza wrote:
 what kind of freeBSD to download for my pc?amd athlon(tm) 64 x2
 dual core processor 4000+ 2.11 GHz 960 MB RAM

Try 9.2 for AMD64. The i386 version should also work (as
you are low on RAM if that might matter, depending on
what non-OS software you're going to run on that machine).



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: what kind of freeBSD to download for my pc?

2013-10-12 Thread Polytropon
On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 16:50:32 -0700 (PDT), cikitaluzza wrote:
 can i run exe files on freeBSD?

Depends. VMX EXE files may work via the SimH emulator. For
DOS EXE and Windows EXE files, there are dosbox and wine.
Those compatibility packs can be easily installed. They
are not part of the OS.



 it spoils fast or not?this question comes from fastest ever
 spoil OS windows which always spoil in a week seven times i
 think with things like errors or dll and many things from
 blue screen.do you have any problems within freeBSD or no
 problems?i dont like blue screen error or driver things and
 no matter what .

Definitely no bluescreens in FreeBSD. The system will behave
exactly as intended and won't change its mind a few days
after installation. :-)


 how much total ram and bit is my pc of amd athlon(tm) 64 x2
 dual core processor 4000+ 2.11 GHz 960 MB RAM?

That's a 64 bit CPU, if I remember correctly. The AMD64 version
should run fine. But as you are a little bit low on RAM, you
might consider using the i386 version (32 bit version) if you
don't _need_ to run any 64 bit application. Especially as you've
mentioned to run EXE files, this might be the better solution.
From what I've heared, wine (the Windows compatibility pack)
runs better on i386 than on amd64. (I'm running it myself on
the i386 OS on a 64 bit system without any problems.)



 im always in internet watching live camers,what do you suggest
 me to use os type?

Is this via web? In this case, only the web browser matters.
The typical candidates Firefox and Chrome should be fine.
The OS does not matter here.

If you need a proprietary program to watch the live cameras,
often available only for an outdated Windows version, running
it with (the mentioned) wine should work. (I've successfully
tried something like that with a program to watch CCTV cameras
via Internet.)



 i like to save pictures and videos and never lost them,if you
 think your os is gonna spoil and lost my all files then i dont
 need it.

Definitely no problem. But keep in mind: _You_ are responsible
for creating backups! FreeBSD offers excellent tools to do so,
no matter if you want to backup to disks, DVDs, the Cloud, or
even to old-fashioned tape.

Saving pictures from videos is no problem. There is mplayer and
mencoder. It plays, records and converts _everything_.



 i want stable os and never to reinstall or update

That approach is unreasonable, I think. You _should_ update when
security updates become available. It's in _your_ interest to do
so, because effciency, security and usability improves from version
to version. Luckily, FreeBSD has an easy way of updating the OS.
It's _independent_ (!) from your installed applications and of
course from your data. You can also decide to update your programs
independently.

However, a install once, then keep using scenario is easily
possible with FreeBSD. (My home system has been installed in
summer 2011 and worked _flawlessly_ since that point, never
touch a running system.)



I suggest you make yourself familiar with FreeBSD by using the
resources from http://www.freebsd.org/ and you _might_ also want
to check out PC-BSD (might be perfect for what you want) and
VirtualBSD (easy way to try it out without installing it).



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: what kind of freeBSD to download for my pc?

2013-10-12 Thread Ralf Mardorf
On Sat, 2013-10-12 at 16:50 -0700, cikitaluzza wrote:
 can i run exe files on freeBSD?

The raw answer is, no, you can't.

 it spoils fast or not?this question comes from fastest ever spoil OS
 windows which always spoil in a week seven times i think with things
 like errors or dll and many things from blue screen.

This doesn't sound like a Windows only error.

 do you have any problems within freeBSD or no problems?i dont like
 blue screen error or driver things and no matter what .

Regarding to driver issues you better stay with Microsoft or switch to
Apple. Hardware and free/libre and open source software requires the
user to learn and take care if hardware is supported.

 how much total ram and bit is my pc of amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core
 processor 4000+ 2.11 GHz 960 MB RAM?

Around 1 GiB could be ok, but also be not enough RAM, but it seems not
to be an issue.

 im always in internet watching live camers,what do you suggest me to
 use os type?i like to save pictures and videos

Free/libre and open source software does less good support proprietary
codecs and software. At the moment there is a thread about Adobe Flash
on this list. The best choice could be Windows, perhaps installed as
guest to a virtual machine, so that you always can restore it by using
snapshots.

  and never lost them,if you think your os is gonna spoil and lost my
 all files then i dont need it.i want stable os and never to reinstall
 or update

For multimedia Linux might be better than FreeBSD. Neither Linux, nor
FreeBSD tend to lose data, you even shouldn't lose data when using one
of Microsoft's less good Windows versions. It's more likely that users
have less good backup and archiving strategies.

If you want to consume multimedia by the Internet, you likely need to
install security updates and software to use stuff based on proprietary
software. You could set up a text editor and never need to update or to
reinstall something, but the Internet and consuming multimedia likely
need updates from time to time.

Start an adventure ;), nobody will give you a guarantee,
self-responsibility is a catchword for free/libre and open source
software.

FreeBSD and Linux are similar operating systems, on both kernels more or
less the same multimedia applications do run, but the more recent
versions are provided by Linux and multimedia is better supported for
Linux.

I'm an Arch Linux user, it's similar to FreeBSD regarding to a port like
system, however, for your needs IMO Debian Linux stable release might be
the less risky choice. OTOH, why not simply testing FreeBSD?

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Re: Do I really have to install 80 packages?

2013-10-12 Thread Polytropon
On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 23:28:40 +0100, gct7photogra...@gmail.com wrote:
 I don't know what others think, but what *I* really want is that the
 free software versions of Flash (gnash and klash, etc) work at least as
 well as versions of Adobe Flash do, or if versions of Adobe Flash are
 to be used, that it will be free and covered by the GPL.

First of all, keep in mind you're walking corporate territory
here. No company will give you anything for free, and even if
it looks free, there's a catch somewhere. Flash as a technology
is dying. It didn't make the transition to the growing mobile
markets. That's why Adobe does not continue its Linux line of
product - a completely reasoname business decision.

People who use, or to be correct, _abuse_ Flash as a replace-
ment for markup and content are not interested in bringing their
product to your attention and reception.

What I'd like to see would be a Flash plugin integrated in
the web browser, with the option of being switched off. I'd
consider it a 1st class citizen by demanding that is has the
same status as embedded media, centered text, a PNG image or
a hyperlink, being a functional module of the web browser
like the renderer, the CSS interpreter, the JS interpreter
or something like that. Could you imagine to install a pro-
prietary plugin to be able to see a JPG image? To see text
centered? To click on a hyperlink? And all the time keep in
mind that it is backdoored? Hmmm...



 Its unlikely to happen unless we start a campaign among the Free
 Software users of the world to make Flash free software.

That won't happen. Flash is the property of a corporation.
The only alternative I see is that this corporation would
donate the product, releasing all the sources and abandoning
all involved lawyer-crap. But that won't happen. I think
most companies better close away the stuff they won't develop
anymore instead of handing it over to a community.



 Yes, I know HTML 5 is just around the corner, but we've seen a
 concerted effort already (in the European Parliament at least) to
 introduce DRM into HTML 5 and though it may make using Flash marginally
 easier, it would be a retrograde step if DRM is to be introduced.

As far as I know, DRM will be covered by the upcoming standard.
This means it will be _possible_ to implement DRM solutions in
HTML. _Using_ them - that's a totally different field.

Keep in mind an important thing:

Alternatives for Flash have been around for a decade at least.
Video, audio, interaction - all possible without it. It's not just
about the browser plugin (the player), it's also about the
creative tools that people use to produce the stuff. Those tools
are offered usually in expensive commercially distributed suites.
As soon as developers and creators get aware of alternatives that
they can learn and use for free, they _might_ change, but only if
the mindset changes.

It's not just about those tools, it's also about file formats.
What I'm talking about is media codecs. Some of them offer DRM
capabilites, others don't. Some of them are highly infected with
patents and other lawyer-crap. There are reasons why some
systems and environments can play various formats out of the
box, and others can't. Which formats are efficient for use with
the Internet? Which offer scaling and streaming capabilities,
important for mobile users who demand lower quality, less data
transfer, and tolerance to higher latency? Which codecs can
make use of a decoder made in hardware?

_This_ problem also has to be solved!

Now put this back into relation with my initial idea of making
that kind of content decoder part of the web browser. The
same way you see a JPG image on a web page and click on a
hyperlink... It should be easy, but sadly it isn't.

HTML5 tries to solve those problems. Its markup will be better
suited for handling media content, plus CSS and JS will be
important players on the interaction field. There are already
projects that utilize those tools, and _developer tools_ as
well as _creator tools_ will be present. Maybe they will even
be present for free. YouTube can do fine without Flash already.
Online games in HTML5 are appearing. On the other hand, Flash
is a no-go on mobile, and mobile is becoming more and more
important to consumers. Additionally, more and more people
become aware of the danger of proprietary software (in regards
of privacy and corporate control, as well as an improving
understanding of what DRM does to their freedom). It will take
some time to show significant effect.

Let's hope people are going to get smarter than I assume. :-)



 So what are we left with?  Free software to replicate what Flash
 does (at least) that does not have the taint of proprietary software?
 Is that not an achievable goal?

It is a _desired_ goal.




-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Do I really have to install 80 packages?

2013-10-12 Thread Ralf Mardorf
On Sun, 2013-10-13 at 04:48 +0200, Polytropon wrote:
 Let's hope people are going to get smarter than I assume. :-)

It's new, not even 100 years old. Within our lifetimes people likely
become more stupid, but yes, it will take some generations and people
will get smarter.


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Re: Is it possible to suspend to disk with geli+Root on ZFS installation

2013-10-12 Thread yudi v
On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Ian Smith smi...@nimnet.asn.au wrote:
 In freebsd-questions Digest, Vol 486, Issue 7, Message: 5
 On Sat, 28 Sep 2013 16:25:33 +0200 Roland Smith rsm...@xs4all.nl wrote:
   On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 05:37:55PM +1000, yudi v wrote:
Hi all,
   
Is it possible to suspend to disk (hibernate) when using geli for
full disk
encryption.
  
   As far as I can tell, FreeBSD doesn't support suspend to disk on all
   architectures. On amd64 the necessary infrastructure doesn't exist,
and on
   i386 FPU state is lost, there is no multiprocessor support and some
MSRs are
   not restored [1].
  
   [1]: https://wiki.freebsd.org/SuspendResume

 Roland, sorry, no; you (and that page) are talking about Suspend to RAM,
 ACPI state S3.  What you've said is correct re Suspend to RAM - though
 some running amd64 have achieved some success on some machines lately;
 most of the issues are with restoring modern video, backlight and such.

 Those i386 comments don't apply to my Thinkpad T23s, which suspend and
 resume, in console mode and X, flawlessly on 9.1-R and properly after
 various tweaks on 8.x, 7.x and 6.x - but they're a single core P3-M ..

 I must reiterate, FreeBSD does not support Suspend to Disk (state S4 aka
 'hibernate') on ANY platform, except - perhaps - on machines supporting
 S4 in BIOS (hw.acpi.s4bios=1) which are very rarely spotted in the wild.

   And even suspend to RAM doesn't work on every machine [2].
  
   [2]: https://wiki.freebsd.org/IdeasPage#Suspend_to_disk

 That page IS about Suspend to Disk - but only as a wishlist idea, as it
 has been for many years.  Someone did take it on as a Google SoC project
 years ago, but nothing ever came of it to my knowledge.

 The last laptop I have that will properly hibernate - ie save RAM and
 all state to disk and power off, then reload all RAM and state on power
 return - is a 300MHz Compaq Armada 1500C (mfg '98), but using the older
 APM BIOS rather than ACPI.  (It's still running, 24/7/365 since 2002 :)

 cheers, Ian

Thanks Ian for clarifying that FreeBSD does not support Suspend to Disk. I
just assumed all major distros supported all the suspend states. Now I am
looking for a UPS that cleanly shuts down the machine when there is a power
outage.
I am looking at a APC Power-Saving Back-UPS ES 8 Outlet 700VA 230V AS
3112http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE700G-AZtotal_watts=200tab=features,
anyone know if apcupsd daemon works fine under FreeBSD or should I be
looking at Network UPS Tools (NUT).

-- 
Kind regards,
Yudi
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Re: what kind of freeBSD to download for my pc?

2013-10-12 Thread Polytropon
Typo warning!

On Sun, 13 Oct 2013 03:26:45 +0200, Polytropon wrote:
 On Sat, 12 Oct 2013 16:50:32 -0700 (PDT), cikitaluzza wrote:
  can i run exe files on freeBSD?
 
 Depends. VMX EXE files may work via the SimH emulator. For
   ^^^
 DOS EXE and Windows EXE files, there are dosbox and wine.
 Those compatibility packs can be easily installed. They
 are not part of the OS.

Of course I meant _VMS_ executables.
 ^

Also I don't know if there would be a way to run OS/2 EXE
files. This is probably only possible with a VM running the
appropriate OS/2 version. This approach might also apply
for running Novell NetWare EXE files. There are several
VM systems available for FreeBSD, for example VMWare and
VirtualBox.

I hope I have covered all typical possibilities of what
exe file could mean. :-)




-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: what kind of freeBSD to download for my pc?

2013-10-12 Thread Bernt Hansson

On 2013-10-13 01:50, cikitaluzza wrote:

can i run exe files on freeBSD?


Yes, but the files are not called exe files.

it spoils fast or not?

Google translate?

do you have any problems within freeBSD

Yes.

how much total ram and bit is my pc of amd athlon(tm) 64 x2 dual core 
processor 4000+ 2.11 GHz 960 MB RAM?


Download amd64


i want stable os and never to reinstall or update

You should consider pen and paper then.
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