Re: Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9)
All of these complaints can go directly to /dev/null Just as you don't get to express your opinion about the government if you don't vote, you don't get to express your opinion about -RELEASE changes when you didn't run the STABLE/RC/BETAs. You had your chance to help improve FreeBSD for everyone, assuming your concerns really are valid and far-reaching. You opted out. No longer the core team's problem. Closed: WORKSFORME ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9)
On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 08:27:32 -0600 Mark Felder articulated: Just as you don't get to express your opinion about the government if you don't vote, Excuse me, but are you just trying to look naive? -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ Remember to always be yourself. Unless you suck. -- Joss Whedon. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9)
On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:40:42 -0600, je...@seibercom.net wrote: On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 08:27:32 -0600 Mark Felder articulated: Just as you don't get to express your opinion about the government if you don't vote, Excuse me, but are you just trying to look naive? The wording wasn't exactly as clear as it should have been, and I don't feel like seeing this thread degrade into politics and conspiracy theories. I should have known better. To clarify: Don't complain about major changes in -RELEASE if you refused to participate in the release process. (and bsdinstaller was HIGHLY publicized for a solid year before 9.0-RELEASE.) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9)
I've recently been presented with new information: namely that RC3 had sysinstall as an option (I did not know this, and I've been reading the lists) and that it was taken away for -RELEASE even though it was agreed upon that would not happen for 9.x. I'll crawl under this rock now. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9)
Allan ___ Erm, you have to realize the new installer was discussed at length here, when 9.0 was still under development/beta/prerelease. Alternatively, you could do like me and install entirely by hand: - boot an MFSBSD image (thanks mm@ ) - partition your disks from there (see http://my.gd/bsd.htm for a rough sketch on how to use gpart) - fetch the 9.0 archives in .txz (tar.xz) format - unpack archives with xz -d - untar archived to the mountpoint with your new filesystems (eg: tar xf base.tar -C /mnt) - customize configuration files (rc.conf, fstab, root's password or SSH key, sshd_config to allow root login temporarily) and almost like me installing previous release (FreeBSD 8) everywhere. i just made once bootable pendrive with system, lots of tools and whole system as .tar.gz files (made my own compiling from cvs) actually i add WITHOUT_SYSINSTALL=yes to make.conf so i don't build it at all. And IMHO sysinstall should not exist, while good documentation about installing BY HAND should be there. Someone that cannot install it him/herself will not be able to ever manage it after so why waste time. Do not forget that FreeBSD is for unix users, contrary to linux which is for windoze haters. Again i propose removing sysinstall altogether. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9)
-Original Message- From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Wojciech Puchar Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:25 AM To: Damien Fleuriot Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9) Allan ___ Erm, you have to realize the new installer was discussed at length here, when 9.0 was still under development/beta/prerelease. Alternatively, you could do like me and install entirely by hand: - boot an MFSBSD image (thanks mm@ ) - partition your disks from there (see http://my.gd/bsd.htm for a rough sketch on how to use gpart) - fetch the 9.0 archives in .txz (tar.xz) format - unpack archives with xz -d - untar archived to the mountpoint with your new filesystems (eg: tar xf base.tar -C /mnt) - customize configuration files (rc.conf, fstab, root's password or SSH key, sshd_config to allow root login temporarily) and almost like me installing previous release (FreeBSD 8) everywhere. i just made once bootable pendrive with system, lots of tools and whole system as .tar.gz files (made my own compiling from cvs) actually i add WITHOUT_SYSINSTALL=yes to make.conf so i don't build it at all. And IMHO sysinstall should not exist, while good documentation about installing BY HAND should be there. Someone that cannot install it him/herself will not be able to ever manage it after so why waste time. Disagree. For example, field engineers which may not be expected to know how to manage FreeBSD _ARE_ expected to know how to install it. A manual install process is more prone to errors than one that is guided by something/anything. Do not forget that FreeBSD is for unix users, Not all users are people. A corporation can be considered a unix user which changes the perspective quite a bit. contrary to linux which is for windoze haters. Again i propose removing sysinstall altogether. And you'll have your wish... over time! The community has agreed to phase out sysinstall(8) gradually over the next 2 or three releases (producing either a 10.0 or 11.0 that is free of sysinstall depending on how things progress with respect to replacement utilities such as bsdinstall and the proposed bsdconfig). -- Devin _ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9)
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 07:25:03PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote: And IMHO sysinstall should not exist, while good documentation about installing BY HAND should be there. I agree with the part of that sentence following the comma. That is all. Someone that cannot install it him/herself will not be able to ever manage it after so why waste time. Do not forget that FreeBSD is for unix users, contrary to linux which is for windoze haters. Again i propose removing sysinstall altogether. Automation is good, provided it does not eliminate useful options and flexibility. You seem unaware of this fact in the general case, for some reason. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9)
On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 09:52:17AM -0600, Mark Felder wrote: On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:40:42 -0600, je...@seibercom.net wrote: On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 08:27:32 -0600 Mark Felder articulated: Just as you don't get to express your opinion about the government if you don't vote, Excuse me, but are you just trying to look naive? The wording wasn't exactly as clear as it should have been, and I don't feel like seeing this thread degrade into politics and conspiracy theories. I should have known better. To clarify: Don't complain about major changes in -RELEASE if you refused to participate in the release process. (and bsdinstaller was HIGHLY publicized for a solid year before 9.0-RELEASE.) I understand the theory, but in reality, not everyone has the resources to frequently try out CURRENT or even STABLE as sort of Beta tests. It is good for those who can. In spite of that, it is good - a part of the development process - that people do post their complaints and concerns. Of course, the sendpr process is the canonical method, but really, many of these comments need some discussion before they are ready for prime time - eg to be posted by sendpr. Frankly, many of the comments are rather half baked and many are really just personal preferences that are not actually technical failings. That does not make them unvaluable. It ends up being sort of an Email BOF session like one might get into in a FreeBSD or USENIX conference. That hashing out is where many new ideas and features start and get vetted and may eventually get worked on by people able to do it. The one failing I frequently see in the complaint posts and the responses by other complainers is too frequently a lack of civility and respect for people who are doing the work of creating and maintaining this system and for those who are making complaints and stating personal preferences (true on other similar lists such as CentOS, etc too). It is not necessary or helpful to ascribe all sorts of negative attributes and motives to those doing the work or to those making comments and complaints. Just state your bit, then shut your digital mouth. jerry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9)
I'm very new to FreeBSD but it seems to me that the installer is pretty much ok. My only wish is that there might be a little more info upfront somewhere, preferably in the installer somewhere, about setting up for a dual boot. I couldn't find in the handbook, (that may be my fault, don't know, but i finally googled the info i needed, after thinking that I had inadvertently committed my Windows slice into the abyss. maybe that was a good thing, but IMO though, the installer should be as lightweight and spare as possible, that is, if the engineering dudes are writing it. I would rather see them doing their fantastic work on the OS, not on the installer anyway. Seems to me that a full-featured GUI installer would be a good project for the community? (ok, yeah they could have left sysinstall alone, but so what???) If you had to depend on sysinstall on a daily basis, i could see having issues with the change, but then again, if you are using it that often a custom install scriptsomething... would be better anyway. from my point of view, I would rather learn how to do this by hand, because then i would come out learning a lot more, and knowing more about my own system. Probably be next on my agenda. since this is my first contact with the community, I would like to thank the development folks properly for the awesome work that they do, and to those who contribute to this list. Kyle Adkins Sent from my iPad On Jan 23, 2012, at 9:27 AM, Mark Felder f...@feld.me wrote: All of these complaints can go directly to /dev/null Just as you don't get to express your opinion about the government if you don't vote, you don't get to express your opinion about -RELEASE changes when you didn't run the STABLE/RC/BETAs. You had your chance to help improve FreeBSD for everyone, assuming your concerns really are valid and far-reaching. You opted out. No longer the core team's problem. Closed: WORKSFORME ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9)
On Monday 23 January 2012 05:18:01 pm B. Kyle Adkins wrote: I'm very new to FreeBSD but it seems to me that the installer is pretty much ok. My only wish is that there might be a little more info upfront somewhere, preferably in the installer somewhere, about setting up for a dual boot. I couldn't find in the handbook, (that may be my fault, don't know, but i finally googled the info i needed, after thinking that I had inadvertently committed my Windows slice into the abyss. maybe that was a good thing, but Heh, I remember back in the day when I FIRST got to use FreeBSD for the very first time; I bought the BSD PowerPak, complete with FreeBSD 4.0, the 4 CD-ROM set, and a 6 CD toolkit, and The Complete FreeBSD book 3rd edition, Which is one of the best books ever written on BSD, or any OS period. Back then, I was running my Computer, it had Windows 98 SE, dual booting with a Linux distro (I used a few and formatted a lot to try new things so it could have been any of them) and then I decided to tri-boot Windows 98 SE, Linux, and FreeBSD... To put it mildly; The BSD installer overwrote my MBR even though I said not to, and wouldn't boot Windows. So it only booted Linux and FreeBSD. I was TOTALLY new to Computers in general still, but even back then, I knew I'd stumbled upon something special. I've also had installs go bad and I couldn't boot Windows anymore either, so I know how you feel. Right now, My Wife and I have 11 computers, and all of mine are running some form of BSD (ONLY FreeBSD and PC-BSD, which is FreeBSD with a pretty pain job and some custom apps that I like) and then a Slackware 12.0 FTP Server which is just my first Computer I ever bought because it still works, and then, I have my main desktop dual booting Windows 7 and Slackware as well. Every other machine is now running some form of FreeBSD. I like that. BSD has come a long way in terms of desktop usability over the years. I mean you could use FreeBSD as a Desktop or Workstation easily, but it COULD be a little but of a pain in the butt now and then for that, as it really is aimed at Servers. These days; It's much easier I think. And I LOVE FreeBSD. I have downloaded and tried out NetBSD but I didn't ever like it. I refuse to try OpenBSD, because I hate that damned talking turnip Theo, and, if anyone remembers unixpunx back in the day, I still have the Live CD they made based on FreeBSD :) IMO though, the installer should be as lightweight and spare as possible, that is, if the engineering dudes are writing it. I would rather see them doing their fantastic work on the OS, not on the installer anyway. Seems to me that a full-featured GUI installer would be a good project for the community? Actually, you could try out PC-BSD :) I'm installing 9.0 on my Laptop right now. I predict in the near future, with the rate at which PC-BSD is going, it's going to become MAJOR MAJOR COMPETITION to Linux, and even the Idiotic Ubuntu. I don't like Ubuntu... I do like Slackware and SUSE, but Ubuntu just. I like Debian, and it's retarded cousin Ubuntu is NOT for me. I use the installation media I have for it, for the SAME purpose I use my Windows NT and Windows Server 2003 Enterprise Edition CDs; Coffee Coasters. from my point of view, I would rather learn how to do this by hand, because then i would come out learning a lot more, and knowing more about my own system. Probably be next on my agenda. I personally would like to learn that part too. However, I don't think it should EVER be a requirement. I mean, when it comes down to it, I think we could all admit, FreeBSD is the most popular BSD because it was the first one to actually try and get something out there that was installable without being a guru. NetBSD and OpenBSD are barely catching up, and I don't care; FreeBSD and PC-BSD, are becoming very quickly my main OSs these days. I used to use SUSE Debian and Slackware for most of my stuff, but anymore, I don't. BSD has, FINALLY, got something called PC-BSD where I can use the stability of FreeBSD, but, with then fast and easy set up of something like RedHat. I hate RedHat so I'm VERY happy Pc-BSD has come along so far. I've got versions of it going back pretty far heh. I actually have a CD / DVD case that is dedicated JUST to BSD. and it's LOADED. FreeBSD going back to 4.0, and other BSD stuff I have. All in there. And For Christmas, I got a new FreeBSD tee, hoody, and a FreeBSD CD/DVD Case. I LOVE it. I also got stickers and stuff, and ANOTHER FreeBSD PC Case thingy, and I love it. since this is my first contact with the community, I would like to thank the development folks properly for the awesome work that they do, and to those who contribute to this list. If you want to thank them properly, I'd HIGHLY recommend buying some of the books! Look into The FreeBSD Mall and on the left hand side, you'll see a section called Books and Magazines. Look
Re: Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9)
On Monday 23 January 2012 12:17:33 pm Mark Felder wrote: I've recently been presented with new information: namely that RC3 had sysinstall as an option (I did not know this, and I've been reading the lists) and that it was taken away for -RELEASE even though it was agreed upon that would not happen for 9.x. I'll crawl under this rock now. Instead of crawling under a Rock, how about everyone here, ALL of the people I've seen in this thread trashing each other; ALL of you, just take 60 seconds, take a DEEP breath, and realize we ARE a Community, which is a lot like a family in some ways. That means we aren't always going to agree with each other, and that we may even want to punch one another in the head from time to time, but, at the least, can all of you who ARE getting pissed off like that, at LEAST be respectfulof one another? God, it's like being on an Ubuntu mailing list with this thread and I WILL NOT stand for that! If I wanted to use shoddy shitty software that some asshole Billionaire ripped off from another OS I'd go buy Windows and pretend I was being bent over. I don't personally care if everyone here gets along or anything, but I DO care when you start insulting each other over OPINIONS. I'm not going to say that stupid cliche about how everyone has one, because I think it's cheezy, but damn it this is FreeBSD! The most Stable OS on Earth. (If you take into account that you don't need a 40 millon dollar cluster to run it and all that). I've been watching this thread from the start, and I've replied to a few posts myself, but it's like, seriously? You have to insult EVERY person you don't agree with? I don't have an issue with insulting morons. I'd make it a sport if I could and I LOVE being a condescending jerk sometimes. But, on a list such as this, it's making us ALL look bad! So, to all of you taking part in this thread; Can we turn the bashing off for a while? We're FreeBSD users, and I sort of expect... No, I EXPECT that we all can act professional! So, PLEASE, if you have an issue with someone on here, and you want to bash them for it... Why not just reply to their email address instead of the list itself? work it out! Man up! If your pooter hurts; the Vagisil is in the same isle as the Depends. Suck it up! (Yes, I'm trying to add humor I'm one of those people who can't deal with certain high stress situations so I try and crack jokes and stuff. But yea, I'm a playful person right now because the Oxy kicked in, but yea, can we not bash each other over opinions?). Anyway, I fully understand BOTH sides of what everyone is saying. I really do for the most part. I know that bsdinstall has it's issues, but don't you think that the FreeBSD team is watching this? You know they WILL get it going and fix it up, so just be professional. Make a list of EVERYTHING that EVERYONE doesn't like about bsdinstall, and get the list to the right people who can do something about it. I mean come on You HAVE the source Write something better, or, at least, get the stuff that bugs you to the people in charge. It will be OK! I've been working with BSD since 4.0, do you really think this is the first time something happened where people were upset? Jeez guys They'll work it out and we'll be fine, OK? -Allen -- BSD user ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Horrible installer (was: Re: FreeBSD 9)
On 1/19/12 3:25 AM, Allan McKinnon wrote: I finally got to install FreeBSD 9 onto my computer and noticed that the installer is now different. It seems to me that it forces you into doing extra steps that I was comfortable doing on my own. I really enjoyed the old installer because then I had complete control over how I tweaked my computer during and after the install. I am surprised that there is no gui present while installing FreeBSD because it feels more like Ubuntu or a windows install (somewhat). Please, please, please take this nightmare away and bring the beloved installer that was before FreeBSD 9. Thank you for listening. Allan ___ Erm, you have to realize the new installer was discussed at length here, when 9.0 was still under development/beta/prerelease. Then would have been the best time to voice your frustration over the new scheme. Alternatively, you could do like me and install entirely by hand: - boot an MFSBSD image (thanks mm@ ) - partition your disks from there (see http://my.gd/bsd.htm for a rough sketch on how to use gpart) - fetch the 9.0 archives in .txz (tar.xz) format - unpack archives with xz -d - untar archived to the mountpoint with your new filesystems (eg: tar xf base.tar -C /mnt) - customize configuration files (rc.conf, fstab, root's password or SSH key, sshd_config to allow root login temporarily) And then most of all, profit ;) I've been doing installs this way first with 8.x (using the install scripts on the CDROM) then now with 9.x unpacking the .txz archives. I'm quite happy with it, the process is simple enough to document and reproduce, and offers suitable customization options. We've developed a tiny web interface here that lets us customize the size, type and label of our GPT partitions, hostname, IP address, root password and SSH accounts/keys to deploy on such newly installed machines. The interface spits the whole wall of commands to paste once logged in to the MFSBSD image to install the new OS and configure it. Works like a charm really. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
