Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 21:43:21 -0300 Mario Lobo articulated: On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 09:33:20 -0400 Jerry je...@seibercom.net wrote: On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 08:48:56 -0400 Robert Huff articulated: [Snip] The socialists still feel they are entitled to something for nothing. Jerry; Forgive me for barging in like this but to me, what your sentence describes is just plain good old greedy people. Patents provided the perfect LEGAL way for these very people to make theirs, an idea that they didn't think of or had the gift/talent to create, as a quickie for profit. The result: Now the long patent arm reaches fruit, seeds and DNA. This means that I can't create a Graviola juice drink (local Brazilian fruit) because a Japanese guy patented the fruit !! How ridiculous did we allowed this to get? Yes you can. You are stating a commonly held incorrect belief. You can always request a license from the patient holder. No one, well no one interested in monetary compensation would patient anything unless they were: ⁽¹⁾ Intended to use the patents in such a way that they would directly profit from it ⁽²⁾ Intended to lease the patent rights or outright sell the patent. Patients protect hard working people who may work years, maybe half their life to come up with a killer idea only to have a douche bag come along and use it sans payments. Interestingly enough, you seem to equate an entity, individual, group or corporation that want to profit off of their work and investment as greedy. I call them entitled. With that said, feel free to develop some great idea and then give it away for nothing. No one, certainly not me, is going to stop you. -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 08:16:38 -0400 Jerry je...@seibercom.net wrote: On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 21:43:21 -0300 Mario Lobo articulated: On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 09:33:20 -0400 Jerry je...@seibercom.net wrote: On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 08:48:56 -0400 Robert Huff articulated: [Snip] The socialists still feel they are entitled to something for nothing. Jerry; Forgive me for barging in like this but to me, what your sentence describes is just plain good old greedy people. Patents provided the perfect LEGAL way for these very people to make theirs, an idea that they didn't think of or had the gift/talent to create, as a quickie for profit. The result: Now the long patent arm reaches fruit, seeds and DNA. This means that I can't create a Graviola juice drink (local Brazilian fruit) because a Japanese guy patented the fruit !! How ridiculous did we allowed this to get? Yes you can. You are stating a commonly held incorrect belief. You can always request a license from the patient holder. No one, well no one interested in monetary compensation would patient anything unless they were: ⁽¹⁾ Intended to use the patents in such a way that they would directly profit from it ⁽²⁾ Intended to lease the patent rights or outright sell the patent. Patients protect hard working people who may work years, maybe half their life to come up with a killer idea only to have a douche bag come along and use it sans payments. Interestingly enough, you seem to equate an entity, individual, group or corporation that want to profit off of their work and investment as greedy. I call them entitled. With that said, feel free to develop some great idea and then give it away for nothing. No one, certainly not me, is going to stop you. Discussion moved off-list. -- Mario Lobo http://www.mallavoodoo.com.br FreeBSD since 2.2.8 [not Pro-Audio YET!!] (99% winblows FREE) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 12:25:31PM -0400, Robert Huff wrote: Jerry writes: I agree up to the point about financial incentive. For myself, I like making money. I don't apologize for that. Most engineers, software / hardware designers also enjoy receiving a monetary reward for their hard work. Simple giving away our hard work, sweat and time to some socialist just because they feel they have the right to the hard work of others is repulsive. Would you call Jeff Bezos (CEO of Amazon) a socialist? Some years ago, he was giving an interview and was asked Jeff, Amazon has applied for a patent for the One-Click system. If Amazon had known before it started there was no chance of receiving a patent - would it have created One-Click anyway? [While I'm paraphasing, the essential content is preserved.] There was a long pause, during which you could tell Bezos understood _precisely_ what the real question was ... ... and (to his credit) answered Yes. The programmers got paid. Amazon gets paid in the form of more expedient processing and (presumably) more sales due to ease of check-out. Why, as a society, should we deny other innovators the ability to use that technology to develop - hopefully - even better stuff? Patents don't encourage innovation. They primarily do three things: 1. They direct innovative effort away from non-patentable things and toward patentable things, even when the patentable things are less actually innovative or useful. 2. They favor large corporations with the resources to pursue patent litigation and build gigantic patent portfolios, thus creating hurdles for smaller business endeavors to become successful. 3. They encourage more time and resources to be spent on patent filing than on actual research and development. 4. They support a specialized lawyer class, which naturally evolves into an entire industry of patent trolling. 5. They make small organizations and individuals afraid to innovate because they fear they might run afoul of patents, and make large organizations waste a bunch of time and money buying other companies just for their patent portfolios so they have more ammunition with which to defend themselves against other patent-holders in a kind of mutually assured destruction arms race deterrence scheme. I guess three wasn't enough to list the major negatives of the patent system. I could come up with more, given a little time. Ultimately, the patent system is in many ways the opposite of a free market. In fact, the socialistic labor theory of value is a much more effective basis for justifying a patent system than any concepts of economic schools of thought more oriented toward free market capitalism, because patents are designed to protect a labor resources investment in the patentable invention, rather than any kind of actual proprietary investment. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 08:16:38 -0400 Jerry je...@seibercom.net wrote: Yes you can. You are stating a commonly held incorrect belief. You can always request a license from the patient holder. No one, well no one interested in monetary compensation would patient anything unless they were: ⁽¹⁾ Intended to use the patents in such a way that they would directly profit from it ⁽²⁾ Intended to lease the patent rights or outright sell the patent. [3] Want to prevent anyone else from using it to break into their market. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins.|licences available see You lose and Bill collects. |http://www.sohara.org/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 07:57:34AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: Do lawyers not use the law to their clients' advatage -- often abusing it -- just because they're wrong in the final analysis? seems you never worked long with lawyers, or you are lucky and have really fair one. If the word fair can be used for lawyers at all. Most often they just want court cases to have work. I'm not sure you understood what I said, because what *you* said here seems irrelevant to what I said. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 18:37:17 +0100 Steve O'Hara-Smith articulated: On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 08:16:38 -0400 Jerry je...@seibercom.net wrote: Yes you can. You are stating a commonly held incorrect belief. You can always request a license from the patient holder. No one, well no one interested in monetary compensation would patient anything unless they were: ⁽¹⁾ Intended to use the patents in such a way that they would directly profit from it ⁽²⁾ Intended to lease the patent rights or outright sell the patent. [3] Want to prevent anyone else from using it to break into their market. That would be inclusive in my 1st. reason I listed. -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Steve O'Hara-Smith st...@sohara.org wrote: On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 08:16:38 -0400 Jerry je...@seibercom.net wrote: Yes you can. You are stating a commonly held incorrect belief. You can always request a license from the patient holder. No one, well no one interested in monetary compensation would patient anything unless they were: ⁽¹⁾ Intended to use the patents in such a way that they would directly profit from it ⁽²⁾ Intended to lease the patent rights or outright sell the patent. [3] Want to prevent anyone else from using it to break into their market. Yes, but this comes with a trade-off. Patents are for a LIMITED time. And in exchange for getting that temporary monopoly, you have to publish the details of your invention. The idea was not just to provide a monetary incentive for innovation, but to ensure that those innovations became public knowledge. In the absence of patents, companies tend to resort to trade secrets -- keeping the details of their innovations hidden. This can result in lost technologies when a particular company goes under and takes its trade secrets with it. Now, it's reasonable to argue that in some fields the duration of that limited monopoly is too long, given how quickly technology advances, but that doesn't mean the concept isn't sound. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 19:08:19 +, David Brodbeck wrote: Now, it's reasonable to argue that in some fields the duration of that limited monopoly is too long, given how quickly technology advances, but that doesn't mean the concept isn't sound. It's also debatable if one of today's most prominent use of patents is fair: I tell you! I have patents! You are infringing! I'm not gonna tell you which patents about what, but I'll sue all your users! Of course, if such a claim enters a court, it might be verified or discarded (because it's just a claim, nothing applicable). In order not to risk a lawsuit, it seems that spreading FUD is often the more profitable way of using patents: I told you! I have patents! But if you pay me $$$, maybe I won't sue you and your users. Maybe... but now PAY!!! -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 09:33:20AM -0400, Jerry wrote: On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 08:48:56 -0400 Robert Huff articulated: Patents are - or should be - the means, not the end. The end is encourage people to create new stuff; the means of encouragement is to give them exclusive rights for a limited time. As long as the idea gets out there, we should be indifferent as to whether they make money. I agree up to the point about financial incentive. For myself, I like making money. I don't apologize for that. Most engineers, software / hardware designers also enjoy receiving a monetary reward for their hard work. Simple giving away our hard work, sweat and time to some socialist just because they feel they have the right to the hard work of others is repulsive. I'm okay with that statement. If a monetary reward were removed from the equation, we would probably still be using an abacus in the dark. Cockamamie nonsense -- or, if you prefer, [citation needed]. While we certainly should be indifferent to the financial incentive and monetary reward someone receives; in all too many cases that is just not so. The socialists still feel they are entitled to something for nothing. . . . which need not have *anything* at all to do with a discussion of whether a system of patents is a good or bad idea. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 21:48:30 +0200 Polytropon articulated: On Mon, 6 Aug 2012 19:08:19 +, David Brodbeck wrote: Now, it's reasonable to argue that in some fields the duration of that limited monopoly is too long, given how quickly technology advances, but that doesn't mean the concept isn't sound. It's also debatable if one of today's most prominent use of patents is fair: I tell you! I have patents! You are infringing! I'm not gonna tell you which patents about what, but I'll sue all your users! Of course, if such a claim enters a court, it might be verified or discarded (because it's just a claim, nothing applicable). In order not to risk a lawsuit, it seems that spreading FUD is often the more profitable way of using patents: I told you! I have patents! But if you pay me $$$, maybe I won't sue you and your users. Maybe... but now PAY!!! How many verifiable (the key word here is verifiable) cases can you name where party A paid party B over an undisclosed patient solely on the bases that party B might institute legal action? -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: It's also debatable if one of today's most prominent use of patents is fair: I tell you! I have patents! You are infringing! I'm not gonna tell you which patents about what, but I'll sue all your users! Of course, if such a claim enters a court, it might be verified or discarded (because it's just a claim, nothing applicable). In order not to risk a lawsuit, it seems that spreading FUD is often the more profitable way of using patents: I told you! I have patents! But if you pay me $$$, maybe I won't sue you and your users. Maybe... but now PAY!!! The companies that do that are generally very large ones like Microsoft. Frankly I'm not sure if you can do much about that kind of behavior; a company of that size and wealth can always find plenty of ways to harass its enemies. Perhaps, to paraphrase Grover Norquist, we need to shrink corporations down until they're small enough that we can drown them in the bathtub. ;) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
be well within patent law to apply for a patent. The patent office has never been very good at examining software patents, and I have made a lot of money helping companies document the prior art not cited in patents that are being asserted against them. good there are people that helps. Bad that there are patents at all. Not just in software. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
Wojciech Puchar writes: Bad that there are patents at all. Not just in software. Patents are - or should be - the means, not the end. The end is encourage people to create new stuff; the means of encouragement is to give them exclusive rights for a limited time. As long as the idea gets out there, we should be indifferent as to whether they make money. Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 08:48:56 -0400 Robert Huff articulated: Wojciech Puchar writes: Bad that there are patents at all. Not just in software. Patents are - or should be - the means, not the end. The end is encourage people to create new stuff; the means of encouragement is to give them exclusive rights for a limited time. As long as the idea gets out there, we should be indifferent as to whether they make money. I agree up to the point about financial incentive. For myself, I like making money. I don't apologize for that. Most engineers, software / hardware designers also enjoy receiving a monetary reward for their hard work. Simple giving away our hard work, sweat and time to some socialist just because they feel they have the right to the hard work of others is repulsive. If a monetary reward were removed from the equation, we would probably still be using an abacus in the dark. While we certainly should be indifferent to the financial incentive and monetary reward someone receives; in all too many cases that is just not so. The socialists still feel they are entitled to something for nothing. -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
Jerry writes: I agree up to the point about financial incentive. For myself, I like making money. I don't apologize for that. Most engineers, software / hardware designers also enjoy receiving a monetary reward for their hard work. Simple giving away our hard work, sweat and time to some socialist just because they feel they have the right to the hard work of others is repulsive. Would you call Jeff Bezos (CEO of Amazon) a socialist? Some years ago, he was giving an interview and was asked Jeff, Amazon has applied for a patent for the One-Click system. If Amazon had known before it started there was no chance of receiving a patent - would it have created One-Click anyway? [While I'm paraphasing, the essential content is preserved.] There was a long pause, during which you could tell Bezos understood _precisely_ what the real question was ... ... and (to his credit) answered Yes. The programmers got paid. Amazon gets paid in the form of more expedient processing and (presumably) more sales due to ease of check-out. Why, as a society, should we deny other innovators the ability to use that technology to develop - hopefully - even better stuff? Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 12:25:31 -0400 Robert Huff articulated: Jerry writes: I agree up to the point about financial incentive. For myself, I like making money. I don't apologize for that. Most engineers, software / hardware designers also enjoy receiving a monetary reward for their hard work. Simple giving away our hard work, sweat and time to some socialist just because they feel they have the right to the hard work of others is repulsive. Would you call Jeff Bezos (CEO of Amazon) a socialist? Some years ago, he was giving an interview and was asked Jeff, Amazon has applied for a patent for the One-Click system. If Amazon had known before it started there was no chance of receiving a patent - would it have created One-Click anyway? [While I'm paraphasing, the essential content is preserved.] There was a long pause, during which you could tell Bezos understood _precisely_ what the real question was ... ... and (to his credit) answered Yes. The programmers got paid. Amazon gets paid in the form of more expedient processing and (presumably) more sales due to ease of check-out. Why, as a society, should we deny other innovators the ability to use that technology to develop - hopefully - even better stuff? You are all over the board here. Nothing ever stops anyone from doing something for nothing. Hell, I have written some small software applications that I never expected to make a dime off. With that said, should I come up with some brilliant idea or killer software applications, I fully intend to protect my rights and make as much off of it as possible. I never stated than anyone should be denied the right to create or write basically whatever they so desire; however, if they are going to piggyback their work on another author or developer's works, then that individual deserves to receive compensation. -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Jerry je...@seibercom.net wrote: I never stated than anyone should be denied the right to create or write basically whatever they so desire; however, if they are going to piggyback their work on another author or developer's works, then that individual deserves to receive compensation. The point here is that an INDIVIDUAL deserves compensation. Whether some mega corp with a huge portfolio of patents deserves the same is to be questioned. Especially considering that those huge mega corps use those patents to stomp all over the little (programmer) guy and destroy his little livelihood. That's what patents were initially designed to prevent: that some predatory industrial magnate would steal the idea of the little inventor to make a profit, without compensating the inventor for his ideas. Sadly, this principle (protecting the little inventors) has been turned upside-down due to the abysmal performance of the Patent Office examiners who rubber stamping just about every patent application with the words machinery for ... in it. -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 09:33:20 -0400 Jerry je...@seibercom.net wrote: On Sun, 5 Aug 2012 08:48:56 -0400 Robert Huff articulated: [Snip] The socialists still feel they are entitled to something for nothing. Jerry; Forgive me for barging in like this but to me, what your sentence describes is just plain good old greedy people. Patents provided the perfect LEGAL way for these very people to make theirs, an idea that they didn't think of or had the gift/talent to create, as a quickie for profit. The result: Now the long patent arm reaches fruit, seeds and DNA. This means that I can't create a Graviola juice drink (local Brazilian fruit) because a Japanese guy patented the fruit !! How ridiculous did we allowed this to get? On a final note, if your sentence were to reflect a little better the idea of socialism (at least on paper), it should read: The socialists still feel that everybody is entitled to something for nothing. Unfortunately today, socialism, democracy, communism or liberalism are mere skins for hungry wolves. -- Mario Lobo http://www.mallavoodoo.com.br FreeBSD since 2.2.8 [not Pro-Audio YET!!] (99% winblows FREE) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:34:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Rudy dr2...@pacbell.net Subject: Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ? .. A big difference between copyright and patents is that copyright is constitutional (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 8), patents are not. FALSE TO FACT. Quoting from Article 1, Section 8: To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries,: Congress is _expressly_ authorized to secure for limited times to ... invetors the esclusive right to their ... inventions. The reason why patents came up was that back around 1900 when automobile manufacturing was getting started, companies would copy each others ideas. You come up with something, then a week competitors stole your idea and was implementing it in their products. Pure, undiluted, male bovine excrement. grin Fact: the U.S. had been issuing patents for over ONE HUNDRED YEARS by that time. The first patent under the _current_ numbering sytem was issued on July 13, 1836, with 9,957 patents issued prior to that numberinng system -- the first of which was issued o 7/4, 1790. Now, applying for a patent =was= a convoluted, lengthy (as in -years-), and time-consuming, process -- which a lot of inventors did -not- bother with, unless they saw relatiely immmediate opportunities for it to generate commercial revenue. And such 'unprotected' work _was_ 'fair game' for copying. Which was a _good_ thing for the then-nascent auto- motive industry. Imagine the mayhem if somebody had pateted the steering wheel, the gear-shift lever/mechanism, or the arrangement of the foot-pedals. Somebody who learned to drive a Ford, wouldn't be able to drive an Olds, etc. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
Out of curiosity has anyone ever heard of trolls patenting open source technologies after the fact? The prior art stipulations pretty much kills that off, unless they make a genuine improvement/change to it to not qualify under that, then they would be well within patent law to apply for a patent. The patent office has never been very good at examining software patents, and I have made a lot of money helping companies document the prior art not cited in patents that are being asserted against them. R's, John ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
- Original Message - From: C. P. Ghost cpgh...@cordula.ws To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 7:20 PM Subject: Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ? On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: It is possible that Microsoft is going the way of SCO -- into its grave, having hung all its hopes on litigation. Along the way, though, it will probably do a lot of damage to a lot of people, projects, and businesses, and I just hope it doesn't get as far as the FreeBSD project or any FreeBSD users before things come crashing down. Right! Let's also hope that most patents that could harm us (should there be some lurking out there) will have expired by then. Unless Congress pulls a Mickey Mouse Protection Act-lookalike on patents by extending them just as they did with Copyright. But as usual with Congress, I wouldn't hold my breath: they aren't exactly known for enacting reasonable and sensible laws. Especially not when heavily lobbied by mega corps with deep pockets like MSFT, Oracle, Apple and so on. Yes, things will get really nasty once those corporations go the way of the SCO. (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Et cetera.) -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Regards, -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org For M$ to talk about patent infringment is like the kettle calling the pot black. Ever take a copy of M$ ftp.exe and place it on a unix machine and then run this on it: strings.exe ftp.exe | grep Copyright Just see what you find there. And don't forget, if you've got an operating system...you didn't build that. Someone else did. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
From: Bill Tillman btillma...@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 05:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ? From: C. P. Ghost cpgh...@cordula.ws Subject: Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ? On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: It is possible that Microsoft is going the way of SCO -- into its grave, having hung all its hopes on litigation. Along the way, though, it will probably do a lot of damage to a lot of people, projects, and businesses, and I just hope it doesn't get as far as the FreeBSD project or any FreeBSD users before things come crashing down. Right! Let's also hope that most patents that could harm us (should there be some lurking out there) will have expired by then. Unless Congress pulls a Mickey Mouse Protection Act-lookalike on patents by extending them just as they did with Copyright. But as usual with Congress, I wouldn't hold my breath: they aren't exactly known for enacting reasonable and sensible laws. Especially not when heavily lobbied by mega corps with deep pockets like MSFT, Oracle, Apple and so on. Yes, things will get really nasty once those corporations go the way of the SCO. (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Et cetera.) -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Regards, -cpghost. For M$ to talk about patent infringment is like the kettle calling the pot black. Ever take a copy of M$ ftp.exe and place it on a unix machine and then run this on it: strings.exe ftp.exe | grep Copyright Just see what you find there. And you think this is surprising, why? Have you ever read the actual U.C. Berkeley License for, say, the BSD 4.4-Lite software source-code distribution? Do you know that Microsoft has a *PAID*FOR* license, for using, AND redistributing, Unix; -both- from the University of Calif. (for BSD), _and_ from what was then ATT Bell Labs (for Sys V)? Do you think MS is doing something 'improper' by preserving the copyright notice in _licensed_ code that they are *LEGALLY* using? BTW 'copyright' and 'patent' are two _very_ different subjects, with different rules, and governed by different laws. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
Let's also hope that most patents that could harm us (should there be some lurking out there) will have expired by then. True. As most technology that ever microsoft invented is a quickly reengineered or just stoled things that was already done many years before in many other systems, very often BSD, then it is not a problem Unless Congress pulls a Mickey Mouse Protection Act-lookalike on patents by extending them just as they did with Copyright. then it will still hit USA users only. FreeBSD master site can simply be moved. But as usual with Congress, I wouldn't hold my breath: they aren't exactly known for enacting reasonable and sensible laws. No government is known for that. but that's off topic. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
This is the reason software patents comprise such a blight on the world of software development. Yes, agreed, not just software. The european patent office system pressures examiners towards granting if they can't quickly find prove the application is already known. http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/txt/patents/ Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com Reply below not above, cumulative like a play script, indent with . Format: Plain text. Not HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable. Mail from Yahoo Hotmail to be dumped @Berklix. http://berklix.org/yahoo/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 6:15 PM, Julian H. Stacey j...@berklix.com wrote: This is the reason software patents comprise such a blight on the world of software development. Yes, agreed, not just software. The european patent office system pressures examiners towards granting if they can't quickly find prove the application is already known. http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/txt/patents/ Sadly, the time they had the likes of Albert Einstein as patent examiners [1] are well over... [1]: https://www.ige.ch/en/about-us/einstein/einstein-at-the-patent-office.html Cheers, Julian -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
Do lawyers not use the law to their clients' advatage -- often abusing it -- just because they're wrong in the final analysis? seems you never worked long with lawyers, or you are lucky and have really fair one. If the word fair can be used for lawyers at all. Most often they just want court cases to have work. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 01:39:21PM +, Traiano Welcome wrote: even if not it's just matter to add proper licence to right ports in port tree and require user to accept it. Probably won't even have to do that. People can download, compile and run whatever they want on a base operating system, but as long as the base operating system (FreeBSD in our case) remains legally un-encumbered with patented code, nobody really cares. If individual users decide they want to compile and run copyrighted software on FreeBSD (or linux) it will be a matter between M$ and the particular user in question, not the community providing the base OS and user space tools. The SCO-IBM debacle some years ago triggered a huge review of open source copyrights in the linux (and *bsd) community. SCO failed to get anything back then, and it's hard to imagine how M$ will get anything now that there's broader awareness in the community around software patent infringement. Unfortunately, patent law and copyright law are very different environments. The truth is that probably every nontrivial piece of software created infringes several patents, and the only question that remains is whether those patents would hold up in court under close scrutiny. The greater the disparity in legal expertise and funding behind the two parties, the greater the likelihood that the case will be found in favor of the party with the greater resources. This is the reason software patents comprise such a blight on the world of software development. Even a frivolous patent that would not hold up through completion of litigation may serve its purpose by bankrupting a defendant before the case is concluded. It is possible that Microsoft is going the way of SCO -- into its grave, having hung all its hopes on litigation. Along the way, though, it will probably do a lot of damage to a lot of people, projects, and businesses, and I just hope it doesn't get as far as the FreeBSD project or any FreeBSD users before things come crashing down. (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Et cetera.) -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
It is possible that Microsoft is going the way of SCO -- into its grave, true. Microsoft know it is falling. People got fed up with microsoft. They now want even worse and more dumb software and hardware. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Thu, 2 Aug 2012 22:49:37 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar articulated: true. Microsoft know it is falling. People got fed up with microsoft. They now want even worse and more dumb software and hardware. You do realize that, that statement can be construed as a condemnation of non-Microsoft software, AKA open-source? -- Jerry ♔ Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: It is possible that Microsoft is going the way of SCO -- into its grave, having hung all its hopes on litigation. Along the way, though, it will probably do a lot of damage to a lot of people, projects, and businesses, and I just hope it doesn't get as far as the FreeBSD project or any FreeBSD users before things come crashing down. Right! Let's also hope that most patents that could harm us (should there be some lurking out there) will have expired by then. Unless Congress pulls a Mickey Mouse Protection Act-lookalike on patents by extending them just as they did with Copyright. But as usual with Congress, I wouldn't hold my breath: they aren't exactly known for enacting reasonable and sensible laws. Especially not when heavily lobbied by mega corps with deep pockets like MSFT, Oracle, Apple and so on. Yes, things will get really nasty once those corporations go the way of the SCO. (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Et cetera.) -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Regards, -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
Hi, On Thu, 2 Aug 2012 12:57:59 -0600 Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 01:39:21PM +, Traiano Welcome wrote: Unfortunately, patent law and copyright law are very different environments. The truth is that probably every nontrivial piece of yes. software created infringes several patents, and the only question that remains is whether those patents would hold up in court under close The best tool against any patents is prior art. The open source scene misses a very simple platform. Even FreeBSD could offer an extra list named 'prior-art' on which people can publish their ideas. The moment the server starts distributing the e-mail, nobody can claim a patent anywhere in the world for the idea mentioned. scrutiny. The greater the disparity in legal expertise and funding behind the two parties, the greater the likelihood that the case will be found in favor of the party with the greater resources. Not true for cases of prior art. This is the reason software patents comprise such a blight on the world of software development. Even a frivolous patent that would There is no difference for an engineer who works in other fields. not hold up through completion of litigation may serve its purpose by bankrupting a defendant before the case is concluded. That party must have a real dumb patent attorney then. It is possible that Microsoft is going the way of SCO -- into its grave, having hung all its hopes on litigation. Along the way, though, it will probably do a lot of damage to a lot of people, projects, and businesses, and I just hope it doesn't get as far as the FreeBSD project or any FreeBSD users before things come crashing down. It is all in the people's mind. (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Et cetera.) This is an example of the real problem. Erich ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
dumb software and hardware. You do realize that, that statement can be construed as a condemnation of non-Microsoft software, AKA open-source? don't generalize everything. There are good software, bad software, closed source software, open source software. There are great open source software and complete trash open source software. now market is completely filled with personal computers and laptops, now people want to get smartphones, tablets, whatever where microsoft already lost. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
Hi, this should not be ignored; sooner or later things will get nasty ... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/25/microsoft_patent_deal_amdocs/ The sooner FreeBSD gets rid of Linux-based software (apps, tools) in its ports, the better. The FB Foundation and Core Team should enact a plan. This should actually happen regardless of MS in the shadows and validity of their claims. jb ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
-Original Message- From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of jb Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 8:05 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ? Hi, this should not be ignored; sooner or later things will get nasty ... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/25/microsoft_patent_deal_amdocs/ The sooner FreeBSD gets rid of Linux-based software (apps, tools) in its ports, the better. The FB Foundation and Core Team should enact a plan. This should actually happen regardless of MS in the shadows and validity of their claims. jb Are you referring to actual Linux-based software or are you confusing GNU-based software? Remember that Linux is only the kernel, GNU is the OS. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
FUD. Ignore. They're going the same way as SCO. T.G.W From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org] on behalf of jb [jb.1234a...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 2:05 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ? Hi, this should not be ignored; sooner or later things will get nasty ... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/25/microsoft_patent_deal_amdocs/ The sooner FreeBSD gets rid of Linux-based software (apps, tools) in its ports, the better. The FB Foundation and Core Team should enact a plan. This should actually happen regardless of MS in the shadows and validity of their claims. jb ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
Sean Cavanaugh millenia2000 at hotmail.com writes: ... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/25/microsoft_patent_deal_amdocs/ The sooner FreeBSD gets rid of Linux-based software (apps, tools) in its ports, the better. The FB Foundation and Core Team should enact a plan. This should actually happen regardless of MS in the shadows and validity of their claims. jb Are you referring to actual Linux-based software or are you confusing GNU-based software? Remember that Linux is only the kernel, GNU is the OS. ... This is about patents, so mostly technologies. Well, FreeBSD does not care obout Linux kernel, but GNU software and GNU/Linux OS-specific technologies migrated with their apps into FreeBSD. This is a scan of ports with linux keyword: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/ports.cgi?query=linuxstype=all It looks somewhat silly to have to rely on those Linux-whatever things to be a functional FreeBSD OS ... FUD or not, has FreeBSD examined in the past its reliance on non-FreeBSD software ? It made a first imporant step with clang/clang++ and associated libc/c++ to counter GPL trickery; there could be done much more to eliminate Linux-based software. jb ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
this should not be ignored; sooner or later things will get nasty ... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/25/microsoft_patent_deal_amdocs/ The sooner FreeBSD gets rid of Linux-based software (apps, tools) in its ports, the better. The FB Foundation and Core Team should enact a plan. ports are not software itself. ports are set of tools to build/install someone else software. FreeBSD doesn't force you to install any ports, and core system doesn't consist of linux software at all. It is not the FreeBSD and core team responsibility of what ports you are using. Appropriate licence files are put in ports tree. This should actually happen regardless of MS in the shadows and validity of their claims. Why? Core system and ports are two clearly separate things. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
This is a scan of ports with linux keyword: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/ports.cgi?query=linuxstype=all It looks somewhat silly to have to rely on those Linux-whatever things to be a functional FreeBSD OS ... still you are talking on ports. In what base system rely on linux? It made a first imporant step with clang/clang++ and associated libc/c++ to counter GPL trickery; there could be done much more to eliminate Linux-based software. #cd /usr/src/gnu/ #ls usr.bin lib lib: Makefilecsu libgcc libgomp libreadline libssp libsupc++ Makefile.inclibdialog libgcov libodialog libregex libstdc++ usr.bin: Makefilecc diffgdb groff sdiff texinfo Makefile.inccvs diff3 gperf patch send-pr binutilsdialog dtc greprcs sort on my clang-free FreeBSD 9 system. do not exaggerate. clang move is already too early and IMHO wrong. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
even if not it's just matter to add proper licence to right ports in port tree and require user to accept it. Probably won't even have to do that. People can download, compile and run whatever they want on a base operating system, but as long as the base operating system (FreeBSD in our case) remains legally un-encumbered with patented code, nobody really cares. If individual users decide they want to compile and run copyrighted software on FreeBSD (or linux) it will be a matter between M$ and the particular user in question, not the community providing the base OS and user space tools. The SCO-IBM debacle some years ago triggered a huge review of open source copyrights in the linux (and *bsd) community. SCO failed to get anything back then, and it's hard to imagine how M$ will get anything now that there's broader awareness in the community around software patent infringement. From: Wojciech Puchar [woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 3:12 PM To: Traiano Welcome Cc: jb; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ? FUD. Ignore. They're going the same way as SCO. even if not it's just matter to add proper licence to right ports in port tree and require user to accept it. T.G.W From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org] on behalf of jb [jb.1234a...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 2:05 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ? Hi, this should not be ignored; sooner or later things will get nasty ... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/25/microsoft_patent_deal_amdocs/ The sooner FreeBSD gets rid of Linux-based software (apps, tools) in its ports, the better. The FB Foundation and Core Team should enact a plan. This should actually happen regardless of MS in the shadows and validity of their claims. jb ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
-Original Message- From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Wojciech Puchar Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 9:12 AM To: Traiano Welcome Cc: jb; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ? FUD. Ignore. They're going the same way as SCO. even if not it's just matter to add proper licence to right ports in port tree and require user to accept it. That already exists. Install java and it will have you manually download it so as to accept their license, or the Intel NIC drivers that have you add a license acknowledge line in loader.conf. FreeBSD as a whole is not encumbered. that was whole issue over the UNIX license issues way back when (which indirectly led Linus Torvalds to write Linux). Further releasing the burden has been seen with the replacement of GCC with CLANG to get the core OS to be as close to 100% BSD licensed. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Patent hit - MS goes after Linux - FreeBSD ?
even if not it's just matter to add proper licence to right ports in port tree and require user to accept it. Probably won't even have to do that. People can download, compile and run whatever they want on a base operating system, but as long as the base operating system (FreeBSD in our case) remains legally un-encumbered with patented code, nobody really cares. If individual users decide they want to compile and run copyrighted software on FreeBSD (or linux) it will be a matter between M$ and the particular user in question, not the community providing the base OS and user space tools. this is exactly what i meant. FreeBSD users should be happy about that situation as linux is far more media-popular and screens other free unices from attacks. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
