Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Wojciech Puchar


My criteria for procedures are:

1. They should minimize the need for additional software beyond the base
system as much as reasonably possible.  This means not only that I do not


good idea.


3. They should provide for incremental backups.


do backed up laptops use FreeBSD or have another filesystem.



4. They should provide for the ability to quickly and easily test backup
integrity without restoring the backups anywhere, which most likely means
some kind of checksum comparisons akin to what rsync provides.

5. They should allow for transferring data from the system to be backed
up to the backup server via SSH.



there is precisely one tool you need.

/usr/ports/net/rsync

there is many distros of rsync for windoze if laptops run it. Not sure 
what actually works but i can check if you wish.



i use rsync for backup server, just config is different: my server is 
behind NAT, and it connects to backed up server with rsync



man rsync and read carefully, don't forget -b option it's very useful
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread herbert langhans
Maybe take a look at lftp, at the mirror option. For basic demands its a
compact solution. 

Cheers
herb langhans

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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Wojciech Puchar

Maybe take a look at lftp, at the mirror option. For basic demands its a
compact solution.


try doing backup of things with 1 dirs and million files and certainly 
you will understand you need rsync.


ftp protocol is plain bad for that.
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Roland Smith
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 06:37:17PM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 08:47:40PM +0200, Roland Smith wrote:
  On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 10:09:03AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote:
   I'm setting up a new backup server using FreeBSD.  It will be used for
   backing up laptops, which will not be connected to the network by any
   kind of schedule, so backups will be initiated manually rather than by
   cron or other scheduled procedures.
  
  What are the laptops running?
 
 FreeBSD, Debian, and/or Ubuntu.  There's at least one of each.  I
 apologize for not mentioning that sooner.  I had a feeling I'd overlook
 something.

Hmm, I'm not sure that there is _anything_ that meets _all_ your criteria!

For backing up complete systems (including boot blocks) I've used Clonezilla
Live to good effect. On the several standalone systems I tried it on, it
managed around 1 GiB/minute, backing up to a USB HDD. It can also back-up to a
ssh, samba or nfs server. Of course this doesn't do incremental backups, and
it is GPL.

If you don't care about the OS, and just want to back up the user's data, I
guess rsync would be the way to go. This in turn will not save the boot block,
although you could use dd for that I guess.

Roland
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Wojciech Puchar


Hmm, I'm not sure that there is _anything_ that meets _all_ your criteria!


rsync meets. It can be a little harder with windoze, with any unix-like OS 
it will work.


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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Polytropon
On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 09:49:39 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar wrote:
  Maybe take a look at lftp, at the mirror option. For basic demands its a
  compact solution.
 
 try doing backup of things with 1 dirs and million files and certainly 
 you will understand you need rsync.

In addition to rsync, which is regarded the default tool for
the described action, maybe cpdup is worth looking at. It also
has the ability to maintain incremental backups (add changes).



 ftp protocol is plain bad for that.

And insecure unless tunneled through some encryption (which might
be important when backups appear inside a network with non-trusted
participants, or across the Internet).



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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread herbert langhans
lftp does work incremental. Take a look at Chad's posting again and read 
what he needs. And of course, ftp via ssh is nothing new ...

Cheers
herb langhans


On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 10:22:04AM +0200, Polytropon wrote:
 On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 09:49:39 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar wrote:
   Maybe take a look at lftp, at the mirror option. For basic demands its a
   compact solution.
  
  try doing backup of things with 1 dirs and million files and certainly 
  you will understand you need rsync.
 
 In addition to rsync, which is regarded the default tool for
 the described action, maybe cpdup is worth looking at. It also
 has the ability to maintain incremental backups (add changes).
 
 
 
  ftp protocol is plain bad for that.
 
 And insecure unless tunneled through some encryption (which might
 be important when backups appear inside a network with non-trusted
 participants, or across the Internet).
 
 
 
 -- 
 Polytropon
 Magdeburg, Germany
 Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...

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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Wojciech Puchar

lftp does work incremental. Take a look at Chad's posting again and read
what he needs. And of course, ftp via ssh is nothing new ...

still - any ftp client will no go faster than ftp protocol allows.
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread herbert langhans
On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 11:10:06AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
 lftp does work incremental. Take a look at Chad's posting again and read
 what he needs. And of course, ftp via ssh is nothing new ...

 still - any ftp client will no go faster than ftp protocol allows.

That's sure. But I think it's an option for the laptops what Chad
mentioned. Such scripts for backup are set up in minutes and it happily
copies the files to the server. If there are already user accounts on
the server, it could be really easy. I think it depends on the scale of
the network.

Cheers
herb langhans

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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Eduardo Morras

At 02:37 23/06/2012, Chad Perrin wrote:

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 08:47:40PM +0200, Roland Smith wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 10:09:03AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote:
  I'm setting up a new backup server using FreeBSD.  It will be used for
  backing up laptops, which will not be connected to the network by any
  kind of schedule, so backups will be initiated manually rather than by
  cron or other scheduled procedures.

 What are the laptops running?

FreeBSD, Debian, and/or Ubuntu.  There's at least one of each.  I
apologize for not mentioning that sooner.  I had a feeling I'd overlook
something.


If it must work with all OS and you have no restrictions on network you can:

a) activate PXE/WOL on bios

b) start the laptop via PXE using a freebsd/linux/whatever_os_you_want_to_use

c) use dd piped to rsync to make the backups

This way you don't need to install anything on your freebsd ubuntu debian. 



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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Wojciech Puchar



still - any ftp client will no go faster than ftp protocol allows.


That's sure. But I think it's an option for the laptops what Chad

only if $HOME directly or part of it is copied and nothing more
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Wojciech Puchar

a) activate PXE/WOL on bios

b) start the laptop via PXE using a freebsd/linux/whatever_os_you_want_to_use

c) use dd piped to rsync to make the backups

not really efficient but working.

ntfsprogs from ports can be helpful. you may use ntfsmount and access NTFS 
files directly.


if backup is done over fast LAN, ntfsclone -s is useful
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Warren Block

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012, Eduardo Morras wrote:


At 02:37 23/06/2012, Chad Perrin wrote:

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 08:47:40PM +0200, Roland Smith wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 10:09:03AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote:
  I'm setting up a new backup server using FreeBSD.  It will be used 
for

  backing up laptops, which will not be connected to the network by any
  kind of schedule, so backups will be initiated manually rather than by
  cron or other scheduled procedures.

 What are the laptops running?

FreeBSD, Debian, and/or Ubuntu.  There's at least one of each.  I
apologize for not mentioning that sooner.  I had a feeling I'd overlook
something.


If it must work with all OS and you have no restrictions on network you can:

a) activate PXE/WOL on bios

b) start the laptop via PXE using a freebsd/linux/whatever_os_you_want_to_use

c) use dd piped to rsync to make the backups

This way you don't need to install anything on your freebsd ubuntu debian.


PXE booting gives a lot of possibilities.  I use it to boot Clonezilla 
to back up Windows systems.  That is better than dd, since only used 
disk blocks are copied.  But neither does incremental backups.


For FreeBSD and other open operating systems, sysutils/rsnapshot is a 
possibility.  Normally run from cron, could be run manually, or 
automatically when the backup server is detected.  It does incremental 
copies, is space-efficient (rsync with hard links), and only depends on 
rsync and Perl.

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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Jorge Luis Gonzalez
Wojciech Puchar:
 
 Hmm, I'm not sure that there is _anything_ that meets _all_ your criteria!
 
 rsync meets. It can be a little harder with windoze, with any unix-like OS 
 it will work.
 

rsync, or some front-end to rsync, is indeed probably the best option, though
it lacks several of the features that the OP indicates would be desirable.

For several years I've used dirvish to good effect.  It's built on rsync and
handles unattended backups over heterogeneous networks quite well.  It shares
some of rsync's deficiencies, but for me, its merits (well-structured
simplifications of rsync's ability to exclude files or directories, elegant
handling of backups' expirations) are sufficient to make it a worthy
alternative to naked rsync.  The frontend is written in Perl and easily
extended.

By heterogeneous networks I'm afraid I mean ones composed of machines running
unix-like OSs; I've no idea if there's an rsync port to Windows.

Jorge

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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Wojciech Puchar
what exactly deficiences and requirements not met by rsync are you talking 
about?



simplifications of rsync's ability to exclude files or directories, elegant
handling of backups' expirations) are sufficient to make it a worthy
alternative to naked rsync.  The frontend is written in Perl and easily
extended.

By heterogeneous networks I'm afraid I mean ones composed of machines running
unix-like OSs; I've no idea if there's an rsync port to Windows.
there are many. I know people using it ... after they know how useful it 
is based on my examples. No idea how stable and usable they are.

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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Wojciech Puchar


PXE booting gives a lot of possibilities.  I use it to boot Clonezilla to 
back up Windows systems.  That is better than dd, since only used disk blocks


ntfsclone is what you need. for sure simpler.

For FreeBSD and other open operating systems, sysutils/rsnapshot is a


what is exactly rsnapshot added value to rsync, and what is exactly this 
fuss about hardlinks?


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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Jorge Luis Gonzalez
Wojciech Puchar wrote:
 what exactly deficiences and requirements not met by rsync are you talking 
 about?
 

Perhaps deficiencies was too strong a word.  I think the OP required--or
perhaps desired--a WOL function.  I'm not aware of any such capability in rsync
proper.  I meant, too, that dirvish, which was the alternative that I
recommended, presents an elegant and easily-comprehended way to manage rsync's
considerable abilities, not that it provides features that can't be managed
directly by rsync.  

 By heterogeneous networks I'm afraid I mean ones composed of machines 
 running
 unix-like OSs; I've no idea if there's an rsync port to Windows.

 there are many. I know people using it ... after they know how useful it 
 is based on my examples. No idea how stable and usable they are.

Thanks for pointing out that there are Windows ports of rsync, and that you
provide examples of their use.  I'm not sure I would entrust my system backups
to them if they come with the disclaimer that you've no idea how stable and
usable they are.

Jorge

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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Wojciech Puchar

you mean wake on lan? there is wol tool in ports.

proper.  I meant, too, that dirvish, which was the alternative that I
recommended, presents an elegant and easily-comprehended way to manage rsync's
considerable abilities, not that it provides features that can't be managed
directly by rsync.


fine but i really want to manage features directly by specifying a 
commands.


thanks for answer, but i really don't recommend anyone using all in one 
tools as it's always to have problems with one than with all.



there are many. I know people using it ... after they know how useful it
is based on my examples. No idea how stable and usable they are.


Thanks for pointing out that there are Windows ports of rsync, and that you
provide examples of their use.  I'm not sure I would entrust my system backups
to them if they come with the disclaimer that you've no idea how stable and
usable they are.

google rsync for windows.

It is not a danger if you run this no really sure tools from windoze and 
you see whether it finished work properly or not.


syncback works fine and is used by me. but it is not high performance, it 
can use only FTP or windows share destination.


for backing up my documents it is fine anyway.
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Wojciech Puchar

Thanks for pointing out that there are Windows ports of rsync, and that you
provide examples of their use.  I'm not sure I would entrust my system backups
to them if they come with the disclaimer that you've no idea how stable and
usable they are.


http://justinsomnia.org/2007/02/how-to-regularly-backup-windows-xp-to-ubuntu-using-rsync/

might be useful for you, after you ignore all this linux style sudo 
nonsense.



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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Chad Perrin
On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 09:46:02AM -0400, Jorge Luis Gonzalez wrote:
 Wojciech Puchar wrote:
  
  what exactly deficiences and requirements not met by rsync are you talking 
  about?
 
 Perhaps deficiencies was too strong a word.  I think the OP required--or
 perhaps desired--a WOL function.  I'm not aware of any such capability in 
 rsync
 proper.  I meant, too, that dirvish, which was the alternative that I
 recommended, presents an elegant and easily-comprehended way to manage rsync's
 considerable abilities, not that it provides features that can't be managed
 directly by rsync.  

Actually, a Wake-On-LAN feature is not at all necessary for me in this
case.  It's a simple enough task to just trigger a backup manually at the
command line via a script that automates the process.

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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Chad Perrin
On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 11:17:36AM +0200, herbert langhans wrote:
 On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 11:10:06AM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
  lftp does work incremental. Take a look at Chad's posting again and read
  what he needs. And of course, ftp via ssh is nothing new ...
 
  still - any ftp client will no go faster than ftp protocol allows.
 
 That's sure. But I think it's an option for the laptops what Chad
 mentioned. Such scripts for backup are set up in minutes and it happily
 copies the files to the server. If there are already user accounts on
 the server, it could be really easy. I think it depends on the scale of
 the network.

It does appear to meet my needs, at first glance, with any capabilities
it does not already have that I might need easily scripted.  I'm having a
difficult time finding any reference to licensing, though.  Matt Dillon's
explanation of cpdup suggests it is probably some kind of BSD-licensed,
given its inclusion in DragonFly BSD base utilities, but that's not
*necessarily* the case.

Reference:

http://apollo.backplane.com/FreeSrc/

I'm going to try emailing Dillon for clarification, too.

In any case, I'll take a closer look at cpdup.  Thanks for bringing it to
my attention.

-- 
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-23 Thread Wojciech Puchar


Actually, a Wake-On-LAN feature is not at all necessary for me in this
case.  It's a simple enough task to just trigger a backup manually at the
command line via a script that automates the process.
still. a separate wol tool is available in ports. You may easily construct 
shell script that will execute it, wait a bit, check out if server booted 
with ping, then wait a bit more (so inetd or rsyncd started) then run 
rsync.


Unix philosophy means have one program to do think well, not to do 
everything. This is what make me an exclusive unix fanatics.


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backup tools

2012-06-22 Thread Chad Perrin
I'm setting up a new backup server using FreeBSD.  It will be used for
backing up laptops, which will not be connected to the network by any
kind of schedule, so backups will be initiated manually rather than by
cron or other scheduled procedures.  I'm trying to decide on what tools
to use for managing backups.  In the past I have used rsync, which has
worked reasonably well, but fails one of my desired criteria for the new
backup procedures, and is less than ideal for others.

My criteria for procedures are:

1. They should minimize the need for additional software beyond the base
system as much as reasonably possible.  This means not only that I do not
want to have to specify the installation of a bunch of stuff, but also
that I do not want a bunch of dependencies pulled in with something I
choose to install (if anything).  Ideally, I should be able to do this
with just the base system, though that seems unlikely at this point.

2. They should require only copyfree licensed or public domain tools --
no copyleft licensed tools, no proprietary licensed tools, no
noncommercial or nonderivative licensed tools, and no permissively
licensed tools where the license comes with annoying restrictions such as
the Apache License requirements for specific bookkeeping procedures.  I
might bend on the requirement for non-copyfree permissive licenses if I
have to, but I'd rather not; bending on any of the others would probably
involve just giving up and going back to rsync.

3. They should provide for incremental backups.

4. They should provide for the ability to quickly and easily test backup
integrity without restoring the backups anywhere, which most likely means
some kind of checksum comparisons akin to what rsync provides.

5. They should allow for transferring data from the system to be backed
up to the backup server via SSH.

6. They should use tools as simple as possible, preferably command line
tools.

7. There should be documentation somewhere out there for how to set
something like this up, someone willing to help me figure out how to get
it set up, or an obvious path to setting it up so that I do not spend a
week just figuring it all out, if at all possible.

8. They should preferably not require creating a local archive on the
laptop before copying to the backup server if it can reasonably be
avoided, so that a big chunk of empty HDD space will not need to be
maintained for backups to work.

Any help figuring out what tools would work for these purposes would be
appreciated.  I might be able to make exceptions for some parts of this
if there are suitable alternative approaches.

Thanks in advance for any help I can get in figuring this out.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-22 Thread Roland Smith
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 10:09:03AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote:
 I'm setting up a new backup server using FreeBSD.  It will be used for
 backing up laptops, which will not be connected to the network by any
 kind of schedule, so backups will be initiated manually rather than by
 cron or other scheduled procedures.

What are the laptops running?


Roland
-- 
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-22 Thread Chad Perrin
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 08:47:40PM +0200, Roland Smith wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 10:09:03AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote:
  I'm setting up a new backup server using FreeBSD.  It will be used for
  backing up laptops, which will not be connected to the network by any
  kind of schedule, so backups will be initiated manually rather than by
  cron or other scheduled procedures.
 
 What are the laptops running?

FreeBSD, Debian, and/or Ubuntu.  There's at least one of each.  I
apologize for not mentioning that sooner.  I had a feeling I'd overlook
something.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-22 Thread Adam Vande More
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote:

 I'm setting up a new backup server using FreeBSD.  It will be used for
 backing up laptops, which will not be connected to the network by any
 kind of schedule, so backups will be initiated manually rather than by
 cron or other scheduled procedures.  I'm trying to decide on what tools
 to use for managing backups.  In the past I have used rsync, which has
 worked reasonably well, but fails one of my desired criteria for the new
 backup procedures, and is less than ideal for others.


One's I use or have used:

sysutils/rdiff-backup
sysutils/tarsnap
misc/amanda-server

-- 
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-22 Thread Chad Perrin
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 08:14:34PM -0500, Adam Vande More wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote:
 
  I'm setting up a new backup server using FreeBSD.  It will be used for
  backing up laptops, which will not be connected to the network by any
  kind of schedule, so backups will be initiated manually rather than by
  cron or other scheduled procedures.  I'm trying to decide on what tools
  to use for managing backups.  In the past I have used rsync, which has
  worked reasonably well, but fails one of my desired criteria for the new
  backup procedures, and is less than ideal for others.
 
 
 One's I use or have used:
 
 sysutils/rdiff-backup
 sysutils/tarsnap
 misc/amanda-server

Unfortunately, one of those is GPL, another is subject to proprietary
licensing, and the last has a bunch of (otherwise unnecessary on the
server) GNU project dependencies.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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Re: backup tools

2012-06-22 Thread Marco Antonio Muskus Muskus
Bacula is the tool

Enviado desde mi iPod

El 22/06/2012, a las 8:31 p.m., Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com
escribió:

 On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 08:14:34PM -0500, Adam Vande More wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com
 wrote:

 I'm setting up a new backup server using FreeBSD.  It will be
 used for
 backing up laptops, which will not be connected to the network by
 any
 kind of schedule, so backups will be initiated manually rather
 than by
 cron or other scheduled procedures.  I'm trying to decide on what
 tools
 to use for managing backups.  In the past I have used rsync, which
 has
 worked reasonably well, but fails one of my desired criteria for
 the new
 backup procedures, and is less than ideal for others.


 One's I use or have used:

 sysutils/rdiff-backup
 sysutils/tarsnap
 misc/amanda-server

 Unfortunately, one of those is GPL, another is subject to proprietary
 licensing, and the last has a bunch of (otherwise unnecessary on the
 server) GNU project dependencies.

 --
 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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