FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions)
Many people's only familiarity with computers in general will be from a Windows centric perspective. Somehow there is a tendency to believe that inserting a CD, booting, and then proceeding to click OK in a dialog box a few dozen times makes them some kind of expert when they successfully get Windows installed. Coming from a Windows centric environment myself I initially found that there was a great deal of material to be learned, and RTFM was the way to do it. I've noticed people who come from university computer science programs have a much better foundation upon which to build. Most computer users do not fit this category, myself included. While this deficiency can be overcome with self study, I am also aware that not everyone who reads documentation necessarily understands the material. If too much background education is missing the documentation just resembles gobbeldy-gook and is ignored, with the fall back position of click OK a few dozen times and the OS will take care of it for me expected to pick up the slack. I would not be where I am today in my understanding and use of FreeBSD if not for the excellent documentation and surrounding community. I feel I owe my success in utilizing FreeBSD to the people who took the time to write this stuff down for people like me to use. It is with a great measure of gratitude to these people I owe my success. [snip] -Mike In light of this, I would really enjoy seeing a Ubuntu like movement in the FreeBSD corner. What I mean is that it would be nice for my mother to install and use FreeBSD. I am not saying that a Windows user should be able to feel right at home on a box running FreeBSD, but a computer user should. The problem herein, i am afraid, lies not with FreeBSD(or any other BSD flavour), nor with it's community, but with the computer user. Most computer users see an operating system(and the application they run most) as part of a computer. How many people say My computer is broken when µ$ Office doesn't start anymore. They don't care about which kernel they run, or which browser they use, they care about typing e-mail, chatting and watching youtube video's. (However sad it makes me that most people use less then 10% of the features/programs/potential/computing-power the computer came with, they do make sure we pay less for our components.) Even though I'd feel less cool or nerdy (which is basically the same thing ;-) ) if I'd run(or USE) the same OS as my 76 year old grandfather, it would be nice for him to be able to buy a computer for $20 less because it runs FreeBSD. To achieve this, there are two things that should be made easier: 1. Installing a basic desktop system(next to any currently installed OS) 2. Keeping the base system and ports up to date. And when I mean easier I mean it should be done without bothering the user unless you about to rm -rf / as root, so to say. Since most people never reinstall their computer, making it easier to install a basic desktop system won't help my 76 year old grandpa, but it will make it easier for unsatisfied Windows users to try FreeBSD. Besides, in making it easy to install a basic desktop system, comes the hardest part of any *nix like system: defining a basic desktop and collecting the basic/standard applications. It's hard just to pick either one Gnome, KDE or XFCE (or iceWM ;-) ) let alone mail-clients, internet browsers, IM, etc. etc. One of the advantages of using a descent operating system is the freedom of choice. However most users don't care! I am more then happy to tel anyone which e-mail client not to use (Lotus notes, outlook express, anyone else's neck hears standing up?), but I don't want to tell people they HAVE to use Thunderbird(I do tell them they SHOULD but that's different) or evolution etc. The problem is, most people don't want to make this choice either. And the circle of life continues. So basically, to make sure people will be using freeBSD (or any *nix operating system) it needs to be easy to install (So that PC-manufacturers will ship their pc's with it), a nicely filled standard desktop environment with lot's of youtube/chat/word process capabilities and I won't bother you with it but i'm updating functionality. Just some thoughts.. I'll get back to work now... ... signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions)
On Thursday 06 August 2009 09:43:47 Mark Stapper wrote: In light of this, I would really enjoy seeing a Ubuntu like movement in the FreeBSD corner. What I mean is that it would be nice for my mother to install and use FreeBSD. [snip] To achieve this, there are two things that should be made easier: 1. Installing a basic desktop system(next to any currently installed OS) 2. Keeping the base system and ports up to date. And when I mean easier I mean it should be done without bothering the user unless you about to rm -rf / as root, so to say. This is what a couple of projects are already doing. PC-BSD springs to mind - I can't remember what the other one is called. PC-BSD is FreeBSD, pre-packaged with a usable desktop and its own simplified package manager. Jonathan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions)
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:56 AM, Jonathan McKeownj.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote: On Thursday 06 August 2009 09:43:47 Mark Stapper wrote: In light of this, I would really enjoy seeing a Ubuntu like movement in the FreeBSD corner. What I mean is that it would be nice for my mother to install and use FreeBSD. [snip] To achieve this, there are two things that should be made easier: 1. Installing a basic desktop system(next to any currently installed OS) 2. Keeping the base system and ports up to date. And when I mean easier I mean it should be done without bothering the user unless you about to rm -rf / as root, so to say. This is what a couple of projects are already doing. PC-BSD springs to mind - I can't remember what the other one is called. DesktopBSD PC-BSD is FreeBSD, pre-packaged with a usable desktop and its own simplified package manager. Jonathan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions)
In light of this, I would really enjoy seeing a Ubuntu like movement in the FreeBSD corner. What I mean is that it would be nice for my mother to install and use FreeBSD. I am not saying that a Windows user should be able to feel right at home on a box running FreeBSD, but a computer user should. The problem herein, i am afraid, lies not with FreeBSD(or any other BSD flavour), nor with it's community, but with the computer user. Most computer users see an operating system(and the application they run most) as part of a computer. How many people say My computer is broken when µ$ Office doesn't start anymore. They don't care about which kernel they run, or which browser they use, they care about typing e-mail, chatting and watching youtube video's. (However sad it makes me that most people use less then 10% of the features/programs/potential/computing-power the computer came with, they do make sure we pay less for our components.) Even though I'd feel less cool or nerdy (which is basically the same thing ;-) ) if I'd run(or USE) the same OS as my 76 year old grandfather, it would be nice for him to be able to buy a computer for $20 less because it runs FreeBSD. To achieve this, there are two things that should be made easier: 1. Installing a basic desktop system(next to any currently installed OS) 2. Keeping the base system and ports up to date. And when I mean easier I mean it should be done without bothering the user unless you about to rm -rf / as root, so to say. Since most people never reinstall their computer, making it easier to install a basic desktop system won't help my 76 year old grandpa, but it will make it easier for unsatisfied Windows users to try FreeBSD. Besides, in making it easy to install a basic desktop system, comes the hardest part of any *nix like system: defining a basic desktop and collecting the basic/standard applications. It's hard just to pick either one Gnome, KDE or XFCE (or iceWM ;-) ) let alone mail-clients, internet browsers, IM, etc. etc. One of the advantages of using a descent operating system is the freedom of choice. However most users don't care! I am more then happy to tel anyone which e-mail client not to use (Lotus notes, outlook express, anyone else's neck hears standing up?), but I don't want to tell people they HAVE to use Thunderbird(I do tell them they SHOULD but that's different) or evolution etc. The problem is, most people don't want to make this choice either. And the circle of life continues. So basically, to make sure people will be using freeBSD (or any *nix operating system) it needs to be easy to install (So that PC-manufacturers will ship their pc's with it), a nicely filled standard desktop environment with lot's of youtube/chat/word process capabilities and I won't bother you with it but i'm updating functionality. Just some thoughts.. I'll get back to work now... ... I must say that I find this (new) thread a bit funny since it was inspired by a guy (the OP) who has been using fBSD for many years (over 5 . . . I can't remember the exact number). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions)
[snip] In light of this, I would really enjoy seeing a Ubuntu like movement in the FreeBSD corner. What I mean is that it would be nice for my mother to install and use FreeBSD. I am not saying that a Windows user should be able to feel right at home on a box running FreeBSD, but a computer user should. The problem herein, i am afraid, lies not with FreeBSD(or any other BSD flavour), nor with it's community, but with the computer user. Most computer users see an operating system(and the application they run most) as part of a computer. How many people say My computer is broken when µ$ Office doesn't start anymore. They don't care about which kernel they run, or which browser they use, they care about typing e-mail, chatting and watching youtube video's. (However sad it makes me that most people use less then 10% of the features/programs/potential/computing-power the computer came with, they do make sure we pay less for our components.) Even though I'd feel less cool or nerdy (which is basically the same thing ;-) ) if I'd run(or USE) the same OS as my 76 year old grandfather, it would be nice for him to be able to buy a computer for $20 less because it runs FreeBSD. To achieve this, there are two things that should be made easier: 1. Installing a basic desktop system(next to any currently installed OS) 2. Keeping the base system and ports up to date. And when I mean easier I mean it should be done without bothering the user unless you about to rm -rf / as root, so to say. Since most people never reinstall their computer, making it easier to install a basic desktop system won't help my 76 year old grandpa, but it will make it easier for unsatisfied Windows users to try FreeBSD. Besides, in making it easy to install a basic desktop system, comes the hardest part of any *nix like system: defining a basic desktop and collecting the basic/standard applications. It's hard just to pick either one Gnome, KDE or XFCE (or iceWM ;-) ) let alone mail-clients, internet browsers, IM, etc. etc. One of the advantages of using a descent operating system is the freedom of choice. However most users don't care! I am more then happy to tel anyone which e-mail client not to use (Lotus notes, outlook express, anyone else's neck hears standing up?), but I don't want to tell people they HAVE to use Thunderbird(I do tell them they SHOULD but that's different) or evolution etc. The problem is, most people don't want to make this choice either. And the circle of life continues. So basically, to make sure people will be using freeBSD (or any *nix operating system) it needs to be easy to install (So that PC-manufacturers will ship their pc's with it), a nicely filled standard desktop environment with lot's of youtube/chat/word process capabilities and I won't bother you with it but i'm updating functionality. [/snip] What you're talking about is indeed needed and does, to an extent, exist; It's called PC-BSD, Ubuntu (as you mentioned) or even Microsoft Windows. I think it's great that such things exist. (Yes, even Windows.) I think it's great that they can help people, who would otherwise be helpless, use a computer to get their work done. I even applaud the efforts of the tyrannical Microsoft for largely accomplishing this feat. Hats off to all involved! But it doesn't end here... On the other end of the coin there is also a need for an operating system which does exactly what I, the user, commands it to do, regardless of what that could mean. For some things, I need a system which trusts me, the user, to make the right decisions. Knowing this, I must be willing to accept the consequences of my actions, should my choices prove to be incorrect. If you prevent stupid people from doing stupid things, you prevent clever people from doing clever things. While one cannot throw any philosophy, in a blind fashion, at a given problem, there is some truth to the statement. Both types of systems are needed, and I sincerely hope that both continue to exist. -Modulok- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions)
On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:56:59 +0200, Jonathan McKeown j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote: PC-BSD is FreeBSD, pre-packaged with a usable desktop and its own simplified package manager. If you're talking about PBI, that's what the average user expects: You open a web browser (d'oh), search for what you think will be the software you need (plus-d'oh) and download it (doubleplus-d'oh). As long as you use PBI only, there's no interference with ports or packages, but you are not encouraged to use a mix, allthough it's mostly possible. Don't get me wrong: I have several friends who use PC-BSD for years happily now, but it's definitely not my cup of tea for several reasons. PC-BSD does probide a KDE-based preconfigured environment and lots of preinstalled software. It's completely sufficient for the average user, allthough not for the average user in Germany, because KDE's internationalisation is not so good (Gnome's is better, as far as I've seen), and not all PBI packages do conform to the language setting (e. g. install in German, install kmplayer, it will be in English, and error messages will be in English, too, that scares the average German user away). -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions
Polytropon wrote: On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 10:58:58 -0400, PJ af.gour...@videotron.ca wrote: Could somone explain to me why an upgrade from sysinstall would overwrite partitions; especially when the instructions indicate that files will not be overwritten? I'm not sure how to explain. It's possible that sysinstall recreated the slices and paritions, or at least the partitions were marked as to be formatted (Y after the file system type in the partition editor). Because I've never used the Upgrade functionality of sysinstall, I'm not even sure what it is supposed to do. Well, whatever it was it sure screwed up my system; not only FBSD but the whole machine became un bootable when some xcb or something like that could not be loaded because of some problem with a python port. And there is the crux of the matter... thre's too much sloppiness and overlapping in the way that the ports/packages and the update/upgrade methods are implemented and especially, documented. Due to diligence and a great deal of my time, I managed to save all the files that were on the system and recovered the XP disks so everything can now be re-installed and used. The only victim in the end is FreeBSD as I will never touch it again. It has been going downhill since way back; but I think I just preferred to stay with my illusions and tolerated the waste of time and effort reconfiguring, searching for answers and reinstalling, rebooting and the whole shebang under the aura of learning. So learn I did. Don't touch it; it sucks. There are other systems better than FBSD, so g'bye all. :o :-P -- Hervé Kempf: Pour sauver la planète, sortez du capitalisme. - Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com http://www.ptahhotep.com http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions
On Wednesday 05 August 2009 15:49:38 PJ wrote: Polytropon wrote: On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 10:58:58 -0400, PJ af.gour...@videotron.ca wrote: Could somone explain to me why an upgrade from sysinstall would overwrite partitions; especially when the instructions indicate that files will not be overwritten? I'm not sure how to explain. It's possible that sysinstall recreated the slices and paritions, or at least the partitions were marked as to be formatted (Y after the file system type in the partition editor). Because I've never used the Upgrade functionality of sysinstall, I'm not even sure what it is supposed to do. Well, whatever it was it sure screwed up my system You screwed up your system. Possibly that started when you tried to use freebsd-update with a non-GENERIC kernel, but you then thrashed around, apparently ignoring most of the help you were offered on this list and getting into more and more trouble, while never explaining exactly what you were doing. This is the textbook example of how not to report a problem: the whole machine became un bootable when some xcb or something like that could not be loaded because of some problem with a python port. Even so, several people put time and effort into helping you, and suggesting ways you could reach a quicker solution when you made it clear what your personal effort limit was. Due to diligence and a great deal of my time, I managed to save all the files that were on the system and recovered the XP disks so everything can now be re-installed and used. Actually, it was also a great deal of time donated by other busy people around the world. The only victim in the end is FreeBSD as I will never touch it again. It has been going downhill since way back; but I think I just preferred to stay with my illusions and tolerated the waste of time and effort reconfiguring, searching for answers and reinstalling, rebooting and the whole shebang under the aura of learning. So learn I did. Don't touch it; it sucks. There are other systems better than FBSD, so g'bye all. :o :-P ``I can't use it, therefore it's rubbish''. That's fine, no-one forced you to use FreeBSD in the first place and I doubt anyone minds that you don't want to use it any more. Personally, I do think it's a pity, because FreeBSD (in my experience, since FreeBSD 4.5) is stable, easy to use (once you have the basic Unix concepts on board), and astonishingly well-documented. It's also supported by one of the friendliest and most knowledgeable communities I know. I don't recognise FreeBSD or its user community in your description and I hope your tirade, on an extremely publically archived mailing list, doesn't put other people off trying it. Having said all that, I wish you well and I hope you find a system which suits you better than the one you have trashed. Jonathan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions
Jonathan, I'd like to thank you for your polite words. I'm not sure I could have been able to express in the same way. Allow me a few comments: On Wed, 5 Aug 2009 16:51:53 +0200, Jonathan McKeown j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote: On Wednesday 05 August 2009 15:49:38 PJ wrote: Well, whatever it was it sure screwed up my system You screwed up your system. Possibly that started when you tried to use freebsd-update with a non-GENERIC kernel, but you then thrashed around, apparently ignoring most of the help you were offered on this list and getting into more and more trouble, while never explaining exactly what you were doing. For any operating system is true: As long as you can't master it because you don't exactly know how to do things, it's always a little bit dangerous. ``I can't use it, therefore it's rubbish''. That's fine, no-one forced you to use FreeBSD in the first place and I doubt anyone minds that you don't want to use it any more. I had a similar problem last year: My home directory is still gone and FreeBSD doesn't seem to be able to restore it. But I haven't found (a) a system that brings back my precious data and (b) can offer the same functionality and easyness of use FreeBSD does. This is, of course, a very individual problem. As you know from this list, most problems are of a less important nature. But failing to read the documentation - you can always ask if you don't understand what something might mean - has never been a problem. If you stick to the official handbook, no serious problems should occur. Personally, I do think it's a pity, because FreeBSD (in my experience, since FreeBSD 4.5) is stable, easy to use (once you have the basic Unix concepts on board), and astonishingly well-documented. It's also supported by one of the friendliest and most knowledgeable communities I know. In relations to most Linusi and MICROS~1 stuff in general, FreeBSD is the MOST EXCELLENT documented OS I've ever used - and I have used many OSes during my career. The FAQ, the handbook and especially the manpages are great. Of course, that's my point of view as a developer. For a normal user, this might look a bit different, but finally, there's this very helpful and friendly list. Having said all that, I wish you well and I hope you find a system which suits you better than the one you have trashed. I honestly second that. If FreeBSD isn't your cup of tea, try something else. I'm sure you'll find some OS that fits your needs better. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions
Polytropon wrote: [snip] Personally, I do think it's a pity, because FreeBSD (in my experience, since FreeBSD 4.5) is stable, easy to use (once you have the basic Unix concepts on board), and astonishingly well-documented. It's also supported by one of the friendliest and most knowledgeable communities I know. In relations to most Linusi and MICROS~1 stuff in general, FreeBSD is the MOST EXCELLENT documented OS I've ever used - and I have used many OSes during my career. The FAQ, the handbook and especially the manpages are great. Of course, that's my point of view as a developer. For a normal user, this might look a bit different, but finally, there's this very helpful and friendly list. Many people's only familiarity with computers in general will be from a Windows centric perspective. Somehow there is a tendency to believe that inserting a CD, booting, and then proceeding to click OK in a dialog box a few dozen times makes them some kind of expert when they successfully get Windows installed. Coming from a Windows centric environment myself I initially found that there was a great deal of material to be learned, and RTFM was the way to do it. I've noticed people who come from university computer science programs have a much better foundation upon which to build. Most computer users do not fit this category, myself included. While this deficiency can be overcome with self study, I am also aware that not everyone who reads documentation necessarily understands the material. If too much background education is missing the documentation just resembles gobbeldy-gook and is ignored, with the fall back position of click OK a few dozen times and the OS will take care of it for me expected to pick up the slack. I would not be where I am today in my understanding and use of FreeBSD if not for the excellent documentation and surrounding community. I feel I owe my success in utilizing FreeBSD to the people who took the time to write this stuff down for people like me to use. It is with a great measure of gratitude to these people I owe my success. [snip] -Mike ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions
PJ wrote: Could somone explain to me why an upgrade from sysinstall would overwrite partitions; especially when the instructions indicate that files will not be overwritten? Dear Phil, Ofcourse if you upgrade, files will be overwritten. Could you please be more specific? Greetz, Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions
Could somone explain to me why an upgrade from sysinstall would overwrite partitions; especially when the instructions indicate that files will not be overwritten? -- Hervé Kempf: Pour sauver la planète, sortez du capitalisme. - Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com http://www.ptahhotep.com http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions
On Mon, 03 Aug 2009 10:58:58 -0400, PJ af.gour...@videotron.ca wrote: Could somone explain to me why an upgrade from sysinstall would overwrite partitions; especially when the instructions indicate that files will not be overwritten? I'm not sure how to explain. It's possible that sysinstall recreated the slices and paritions, or at least the partitions were marked as to be formatted (Y after the file system type in the partition editor). Because I've never used the Upgrade functionality of sysinstall, I'm not even sure what it is supposed to do. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
