Re: [Fsf-Debian] The question behind the questions [was No response?]

2012-08-07 Thread Ian Jackson 
Mason Loring Bliss writes (Re: [Fsf-Debian] The question behind the questions 
[was No response?]):
 I'm personally disappointed that we haven't had more concrete proposals from
 the project leads involved in the list. I am inclined to think that there's a
 lot of back-room haggling going on, and that seems distastefully opaque for
 our purpose. Or maybe there's not, and the effort's not being taken seriously
 enough.

AIUI yes there is a lot of back-room discussion going on.

I agree that this is a serious problem.  Unfortunately it's difficult
to do anything else, particularly given the FSF's governance
structure.

Ian.

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Re: [Fsf-Debian] The question behind the questions [was No response?]

2012-08-04 Thread Bryan Baldwin 
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On 08/05/2012 11:01 AM, Mason Loring Bliss wrote:
 I tried in my small way to pursue Debian's inclusion in the FSF 
 free distributions list. [...] I've heard just enough of Bryan's 
 sort of views to solidy my opinion. [...] Support for non-free 
 software is going to get more people to use free software.

What was your small way of trying to get Debian on the FSF list? How
many nonfree packages did you actually remove from the distribution?

Am I right, at least in your case? For you, this about getting Debian
into the FSF free distribution list without actually removing or
stopping support for anything nonfree.

 I'm still struck by the image of overwrought zealots in an ivory 
 tower throwing stones at the people building and maintaining the 
 foundation of their tower.

Is denying the Debian distribution a listing on FSF actually throwing
stones? Being on that list is about actually being free, not
pretending to be free by doing a lot of work for free software and
distributing nonfree on the side. You said it yourself. You think
distributing nonfree software helps free software. Why then do you
need to try to label something free, when it obviously isn't?

 If there isn't a willingness to consider being flexible on both 
 sides, then we might as well go back to Debian being hugely
 popular and the FSF promoting rebranding efforts like Trisquel and
  gNewSense.

Yes, that is my feeling exactly. We *shouldn't* be flexable on
freedom. If Debian wants to get on the free distribution list, Debian
developers need to get to work on actually making the distribution
free instead of trying to persuade the FSF to drop the first word in
its name, or change that word to open.
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Re: [Fsf-Debian] The question behind the questions [was No response?]

2012-08-04 Thread Karl Goetz 
On Sun,   5 Aug 2012, 14:19:18 EST, Bryan Baldwin br...@katofiad.co.nz wrote:

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 On 08/05/2012 03:05 PM, Mason Loring Bliss wrote:
  There aren't any non-free packages in Debian, silly! Please ask a 
  question that makes sense.

   Its not worthy of the attention of a thinking person.
  Intelligent people know how to compromise to accomplish shared goals.

Everyone please try and stay civil.
 
 Good. Here is a compromise. Get rid of contrib and nonfree, and I
 would expect serious consideration for Debian to join the FSF's free
 distribution list. Is that fair?

Try not to completely polarise the list participants before we even hear 
stephano and johns announcement :)
thanks,
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