Re: [Gendergap] Nudity vs Islam in Western Europe
Ok I will be a bit long here. On 23/09/2011 01:07, Emily Monroe wrote: Personally, I really don't understand why people get upset about Islamic women /choosing/ to wear hijabs, or niqabs, under the pretense of feminism. Part of what feminism fights for is the right to choose. This is the unintended consequence. I get the practical arguments (ie, I don't know who this person is etc.) is, though, and I think any girl or women who has their wardrobe dictated by another person is being abused, unless there's a non-abusive reason behind it; I doubt that anyone wearing a work or school uniform would qualify as being abused. That is probably because you still consider the niqab as a piece of garment only. But the niqab doesn't come alone, it comes in a set, with Islamic law included. And that law necessarily includes the submission of women to men. It is very important to understand that Islam is not exactly a personal choice faith, in the sense that you would consider tolerance between different churches of Protestantism on the American territory. Islam doesn't do tolerance, in the sense that we understand it. In Islam you cannot leave, it is death penalty if you chose another religion. It is not either to be considered with a benevolent multicultural mind, like you would tolerate the differences of Buddhist immigrants. A law-abiding good-citizen attitude is recommended to Muslims only if they are a minority in a Western country. If they become a majority, then they must take power, and impose Islamic law. This entails dividing the population into three categories ; Muslims who have full dignity, Christians and Jews who are sub-citizens subjected to occasional abuse, non believers or heathens who have no rights. This also necessarily includes a loss of civic rights for all women. During the twentieth century there were positive signs from the Muslim world. They were due to : - local customs atoning Islamic law - The modernist mentalities of post-colonization Nation-States However this is disappearing now, due to : - New globalized generations who conceive Islam not as local custom but as globally opposed to the Western world - The systematic destruction of the modern Muslim Nation-States by NATO Only in the mainstream media you hear that Bin Laden was captured because it suddenly became possible, and Lybian democratic forces suddenly rebelled against dictator Khadafi. In fact Bin Laden's capture was a public relations operation, which helped conceal the fact that Nato has been promoting Al-Qaida to fight in Lybia. This in turn helps establishing business interests in NATO-controlled Muslim countries, with Western capital controlling the big business, the local population subjected to religious obscurantism and not participating to the democratic defense of their rights, and in between a zealots mafia.. In Islam women do have rights, yes, like your teenage daughter has rights. Not like an adult professional woman has rights and can call her lawyer. In Islam if you have no husband and no father, then you are subjected to the authority of your younger brother, who can decide of your life for you, and occasionally beat you up if you don't obey. In Islam you cannot divorce if you wish, only if the Muslim judge thinks that your husband did something wrong according to Islamic law. In Islam you cannot be raped by your husband, he is your husband it's the word of God that he can do what he wants with you. In Islam if you complain that you were raped by strangers, you have to prove first that you were not sexually provocative. In Islam if you are found with a person of the same sex, the community can stone you to death as they wish. The reason why I write all that is that I have talked with feminists from Muslim countries, so I try to convey their message. The first thing is that they really would like to get rid of Islam. Not being mildly respected as a member of the Muslim community, but really get rid of Islam, and being actively protected from it. They want to have a life, they cannot even subscribe an insurance policy, buy a car, go visit friends without the agreement of male relatives. Then there is the sociological problem, that Islam doesn't tolerate a sexually neutral civic life. It might not be obvious in North America because you are so used to it, but in order to have a professional life women need to work in an environment where there are male colleagues and clients, and therefore need laws against sexual harassment, for the simple common sense reason that when you work you work, you don't date. Islam doesn't do that, in Islam a woman is either owned by the males of her family or her husband, and if she she walks free from male authority then she is sexually available. The male in turn is considered as immediately sexually eager and willing to rape as soon as he sees a female in the absence of a relative from her family.
[Gendergap] Incentive programs and wikicups: Effectiveness?
Has anyone done any research or know of any research that has looked into the effectiveness of incentive programs like British Museum at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/BM/Featured_Article_prize ? Or into the effectiveness of wikicups like Bacon at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Bacon/Bacon_WikiCup/2012? Do they spur collaboration? Do they engage new audiences that may not otherwise have worked on content or similar content? -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Incentive programs and wikicups: Effectiveness?
Laura - this is probably more of a topic for say cultural partnerships - if you would like (and I would suggest it) I can add you there, I co-mod the list. -Sarah (Stierch) Sent via iPhone - I apologize in advance for my shortness or errors! :) On Sep 23, 2011, at 5:30 AM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote: Has anyone done any research or know of any research that has looked into the effectiveness of incentive programs like British Museum at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/BM/Featured_Article_prize ? Or into the effectiveness of wikicups like Bacon at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Bacon/Bacon_WikiCup/2012 ? Do they spur collaboration? Do they engage new audiences that may not otherwise have worked on content or similar content? -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Nudity vs Islam in Western Europe
This rant is inappropriate. Islam doesn't do tolerance, in the sense that we understand it. In Islam you cannot leave, it is death penalty if you chose another religion. There is a grain of truth in such accusations, but you ascribe them to the entire religion. A part of what we are doing here is attempting to foster an atmosphere on Wikipedia where Muslim women feel welcome to edit. Wikimedia is a global multicultural organization. Fred Ok I will be a bit long here. On 23/09/2011 01:07, Emily Monroe wrote: Personally, I really don't understand why people get upset about Islamic women /choosing/ to wear hijabs, or niqabs, under the pretense of feminism. Part of what feminism fights for is the right to choose. This is the unintended consequence. I get the practical arguments (ie, I don't know who this person is etc.) is, though, and I think any girl or women who has their wardrobe dictated by another person is being abused, unless there's a non-abusive reason behind it; I doubt that anyone wearing a work or school uniform would qualify as being abused. That is probably because you still consider the niqab as a piece of garment only. But the niqab doesn't come alone, it comes in a set, with Islamic law included. And that law necessarily includes the submission of women to men. It is very important to understand that Islam is not exactly a personal choice faith, in the sense that you would consider tolerance between different churches of Protestantism on the American territory. Islam doesn't do tolerance, in the sense that we understand it. In Islam you cannot leave, it is death penalty if you chose another religion. It is not either to be considered with a benevolent multicultural mind, like you would tolerate the differences of Buddhist immigrants. A law-abiding good-citizen attitude is recommended to Muslims only if they are a minority in a Western country. If they become a majority, then they must take power, and impose Islamic law. This entails dividing the population into three categories ; Muslims who have full dignity, Christians and Jews who are sub-citizens subjected to occasional abuse, non believers or heathens who have no rights. This also necessarily includes a loss of civic rights for all women. During the twentieth century there were positive signs from the Muslim world. They were due to : - local customs atoning Islamic law - The modernist mentalities of post-colonization Nation-States However this is disappearing now, due to : - New globalized generations who conceive Islam not as local custom but as globally opposed to the Western world - The systematic destruction of the modern Muslim Nation-States by NATO Only in the mainstream media you hear that Bin Laden was captured because it suddenly became possible, and Lybian democratic forces suddenly rebelled against dictator Khadafi. In fact Bin Laden's capture was a public relations operation, which helped conceal the fact that Nato has been promoting Al-Qaida to fight in Lybia. This in turn helps establishing business interests in NATO-controlled Muslim countries, with Western capital controlling the big business, the local population subjected to religious obscurantism and not participating to the democratic defense of their rights, and in between a zealots mafia.. In Islam women do have rights, yes, like your teenage daughter has rights. Not like an adult professional woman has rights and can call her lawyer. In Islam if you have no husband and no father, then you are subjected to the authority of your younger brother, who can decide of your life for you, and occasionally beat you up if you don't obey. In Islam you cannot divorce if you wish, only if the Muslim judge thinks that your husband did something wrong according to Islamic law. In Islam you cannot be raped by your husband, he is your husband it's the word of God that he can do what he wants with you. In Islam if you complain that you were raped by strangers, you have to prove first that you were not sexually provocative. In Islam if you are found with a person of the same sex, the community can stone you to death as they wish. The reason why I write all that is that I have talked with feminists from Muslim countries, so I try to convey their message. The first thing is that they really would like to get rid of Islam. Not being mildly respected as a member of the Muslim community, but really get rid of Islam, and being actively protected from it. They want to have a life, they cannot even subscribe an insurance policy, buy a car, go visit friends without the agreement of male relatives. Then there is the sociological problem, that Islam doesn't tolerate a sexually neutral civic life. It might not be obvious in North America because you are so used to it, but in order to have a professional life women need to work in an environment where there are male colleagues and clients, and therefore need
[Gendergap] OFFLIST Re: Incentive programs and wikicups: Effectiveness?
Hey Laura, I've been meaning to ask you this -- have you talked to Siska Doviana in Indonesia? She's run a couple university contests, and reported on them. I'm not sure if there's been formal research, but she is full of information. I could introduce you if you haven't met her. -Pete On Sep 23, 2011, at 2:30 AM, Laura Hale wrote: Has anyone done any research or know of any research that has looked into the effectiveness of incentive programs like British Museum at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/BM/Featured_Article_prize ? Or into the effectiveness of wikicups like Bacon at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Bacon/Bacon_WikiCup/2012 ? Do they spur collaboration? Do they engage new audiences that may not otherwise have worked on content or similar content? -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com 503-383-9454 mobile ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] OFFLIST Re: Incentive programs and wikicups: Effectiveness?
nb: despite the subject, this was sent to the list. On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Laura, I've been meaning to ask you this -- have you talked to Siska Doviana in Indonesia? She's run a couple university contests, and reported on them. I'm not sure if there's been formal research, but she is full of information. I could introduce you if you haven't met her. -Pete On Sep 23, 2011, at 2:30 AM, Laura Hale wrote: Has anyone done any research or know of any research that has looked into the effectiveness of incentive programs like British Museum at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/BM/Featured_Article_prize ? Or into the effectiveness of wikicups like Bacon at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Bacon/Bacon_WikiCup/2012 ? Do they spur collaboration? Do they engage new audiences that may not otherwise have worked on content or similar content? -- twitter: purplepopple blog: ozziesport.com ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com 503-383-9454 mobile ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Nudity vs Islam in Western Europe
On 23/09/2011 16:23, Fred Bauder wrote: This rant is inappropriate. Mmh... Yes, ok, goodbye. Anyway this list has been concentrating on hte appearance of women, not on the participation of women of women to generic topics, which was what I was looking for when I first came. I will unsubscribe now. To all : remember that women's rights are way, way more important than the interests of Wikimedia Foundation. Arnaud ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Fwd: The Feminist Movement in Museum Technology startstoday at the Smithsonian!
The GLAM industry is a female dominated industry, and this is the first conference of it's type to examine feminism, technology and museum culture. I encourage you all to follow the conference throughout the weekend... -Sarah As an aside, I've noticed how a lot of active female editors are themselves GLAM-sector people in their day jobs as it were, or have editing interests that correspond to it. I strongly suspect that our GLAM outreach projects may be one of the best things we have done, and continue to do, to increase female participation. Daniel Case___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] 13 year old joins WP Pornography?
Entertaining...bizarre...scary...odd? Real? fake? Don't get me wrong. If Wikipedia was around when I was 14, I so would have joined WP:Feminism. But, I was a 14 year old riot grrrl using BBSes. ;-) -- Forwarded message -- From: Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl Date: Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 1:26 PM Subject: [Foundation-l] Larry Sanger tweets about 13 yo in Wikiproject Pornography To: foundatio...@lists.wikimedia.org Dear Press: a self-described 13 YO joined Wikiproject Pornography. Wikipedians support him. webcitation.org/61v0ykxJe webcitation.org/61v1FfW3K - http://twitter.com/#!/lsanger/status/117299089439334400 The on-wiki argument is that there are many areas in that project that don't actually involve nudie pics, but rather cover areas of law, etc. scratches head sincerely, Kim Bruning -- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundatio...@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for Wikimedia http://www.glamwiki.org Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Arthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch and Sarah Stierch Consulting *Historical, cultural artistic research advising.* -- http://www.sarahstierch.com/ ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
[Gendergap] A reminder about IRC #wikimedia-gendergap
Hi everyone, Just a reminder that we have a #wikimedia-gendergap IRC (internet relay chat) channel! This is a hang out spot where those who are interested in the gender gap talk shop - often subjects related to discussions on the list, help each other out, and just get to know each other. We don't always talk about gender gap - but, it's a great way to get to know like-minded Wikimedians in a safe, laidback environment. Staff and volunteers from around the world of all gender, identifies and ages hang out in it. Come stop by if you desire! It's as easy as clicking here: http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#wikimedia-gendergap Pick a user name. Fill out the captcha. Then a bunch of mumbo jumbo appears on the screen and a few seconds later you'll see a list of names on the right and the chat room on the left. Welcome and feel free to share with anyone interested in Wikimedia and the gender gap, -Sarah -- GLAMWIKI Partnership Ambassador for Wikimedia http://www.glamwiki.org Wikipedian-in-Residence, Archives of American Arthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SarahStierch and Sarah Stierch Consulting *Historical, cultural artistic research advising.* -- http://www.sarahstierch.com/ ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] 13 year old joins WP Pornography?
On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: Entertaining...bizarre...scary...odd? Real? fake? Don't get me wrong. If Wikipedia was around when I was 14, I so would have joined WP:Feminism. But, I was a 14 year old riot grrrl using BBSes. ;-) -- Forwarded message -- From: Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl Date: Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 1:26 PM Subject: [Foundation-l] Larry Sanger tweets about 13 yo in Wikiproject Pornography To: foundatio...@lists.wikimedia.org Dear Press: a self-described 13 YO joined Wikiproject Pornography. Wikipedians support him. webcitation.org/61v0ykxJe webcitation.org/61v1FfW3K - http://twitter.com/#!/lsanger/status/117299089439334400 The on-wiki argument is that there are many areas in that project that don't actually involve nudie pics, but rather cover areas of law, etc. scratches head sincerely, Kim Bruning Even before Sanger got involved in publicizing this to the press, I was suspicious that this was some kind of agente provocateur thing. The supposed 13-year-old hasn't actually been doing much of anything. -- Michael J. Orange Mike Lowrey When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes. -- Desiderius Erasmus ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] 13 year old joins WP Pornography?
What are some questions we could ask the user that only a real 13 year old would know? Actually, I have a better idea, let's ask him Who founded Wikipedia? :) Ryan Kaldari On 9/23/11 1:04 PM, Michael J. Lowrey wrote: On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Sarah Stierchsarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: Entertaining...bizarre...scary...odd? Real? fake? Don't get me wrong. If Wikipedia was around when I was 14, I so would have joined WP:Feminism. But, I was a 14 year old riot grrrl using BBSes. ;-) -- Forwarded message -- From: Kim Bruningk...@bruning.xs4all.nl Date: Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 1:26 PM Subject: [Foundation-l] Larry Sanger tweets about 13 yo in Wikiproject Pornography To: foundatio...@lists.wikimedia.org Dear Press: a self-described 13 YO joined Wikiproject Pornography. Wikipedians support him. webcitation.org/61v0ykxJe webcitation.org/61v1FfW3K - http://twitter.com/#!/lsanger/status/117299089439334400 The on-wiki argument is that there are many areas in that project that don't actually involve nudie pics, but rather cover areas of law, etc.scratches head sincerely, Kim Bruning Even before Sanger got involved in publicizing this to the press, I was suspicious that this was some kind of agente provocateur thing. The supposed 13-year-old hasn't actually been doing much of anything. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] 13 year old joins WP Pornography?
Whether or not the editor is indeed thirteen years old is probably relatively unimportant. What matters is that voices in the RfC generally (about 3:1) oppose the idea of a minimum age of 18 for contributors to the WikiProject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#RfC:_Should_underage_editors_be_topic_banned_from_articles_in_the_WikiProject_Pornography_topic_area.3F Andreas --- On Fri, 23/9/11, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org wrote: From: Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] 13 year old joins WP Pornography? To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Friday, 23 September, 2011, 21:24 What are some questions we could ask the user that only a real 13 year old would know? Actually, I have a better idea, let's ask him Who founded Wikipedia? :) Ryan Kaldari On 9/23/11 1:04 PM, Michael J. Lowrey wrote: On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Sarah Stierchsarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote: Entertaining...bizarre...scary...odd? Real? fake? Don't get me wrong. If Wikipedia was around when I was 14, I so would have joined WP:Feminism. But, I was a 14 year old riot grrrl using BBSes. ;-) -- Forwarded message -- From: Kim Bruningk...@bruning.xs4all.nl Date: Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 1:26 PM Subject: [Foundation-l] Larry Sanger tweets about 13 yo in Wikiproject Pornography To: foundatio...@lists.wikimedia.org Dear Press: a self-described 13 YO joined Wikiproject Pornography. Wikipedians support him. webcitation.org/61v0ykxJe webcitation.org/61v1FfW3K - http://twitter.com/#!/lsanger/status/117299089439334400 The on-wiki argument is that there are many areas in that project that don't actually involve nudie pics, but rather cover areas of law, etc.scratches head sincerely, Kim Bruning Even before Sanger got involved in publicizing this to the press, I was suspicious that this was some kind of agente provocateur thing. The supposed 13-year-old hasn't actually been doing much of anything. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Nudity vs Islam in Western Europe
Arnaud, I think you should not underestimate the impact of poverty as compared to religion. Before the Western world became the 1st World, the typical Christian was just as intolerant, bigoted, and patriarchal as your most extreme Muslim. Once Westerners went from being peasants to middle-class professionals, business became more important than religion, and the enemies of capitalism (communists) became the bogeyman rather than other religions. This pulled the rug out from Christianity, which used to have a monopoly on bogeymen. So Christianity had to go for the soft-sell and reinvent itself as a feel-good spiritual social club rather than fire and brimstone. All the sudden women could wear pants and run for office (and become priests). Of course the Christian Bible still says that women are subservient to their husbands (as Michelle Bachmann recently reminded us). It also endorses slavery, says that adulterers must be put to death, and requires men to grow beards. But who cares? If you live a comfortable life, religious dogma doesn't have much appeal. Sociological studies have shown a strong correlation between patriarchal attitudes and lack of economic development. Look at the difference between Pakistan and Indonesia. Both are majority Muslim countries which officially endorse Sharia law. In Pakistan, religious fundamentalism is strong and women have little access to education, employment, or power. In Indonesia, there is far less religious fundamentalism and women have far more access to education, employment, and power (though still pitiful by Western standards). Women can even serve as Sharia judges in Indonesia, which would be heresy in Pakistan. If you compare the GDP per capita between the 2 counties, Indonesia's is over twice that of Pakistan. The effect is even more pronounced if you compare rural areas to urban areas rather than country to country. Ryan Kaldari On 9/23/11 1:56 AM, Arnaud HERVE wrote: Ok I will be a bit long here. On 23/09/2011 01:07, Emily Monroe wrote: Personally, I really don't understand why people get upset about Islamic women /choosing/ to wear hijabs, or niqabs, under the pretense of feminism. Part of what feminism fights for is the right to choose. This is the unintended consequence. I get the practical arguments (ie, I don't know who this person is etc.) is, though, and I think any girl or women who has their wardrobe dictated by another person is being abused, unless there's a non-abusive reason behind it; I doubt that anyone wearing a work or school uniform would qualify as being abused. That is probably because you still consider the niqab as a piece of garment only. But the niqab doesn't come alone, it comes in a set, with Islamic law included. And that law necessarily includes the submission of women to men. It is very important to understand that Islam is not exactly a personal choice faith, in the sense that you would consider tolerance between different churches of Protestantism on the American territory. Islam doesn't do tolerance, in the sense that we understand it. In Islam you cannot leave, it is death penalty if you chose another religion. It is not either to be considered with a benevolent multicultural mind, like you would tolerate the differences of Buddhist immigrants. A law-abiding good-citizen attitude is recommended to Muslims only if they are a minority in a Western country. If they become a majority, then they must take power, and impose Islamic law. This entails dividing the population into three categories ; Muslims who have full dignity, Christians and Jews who are sub-citizens subjected to occasional abuse, non believers or heathens who have no rights. This also necessarily includes a loss of civic rights for all women. During the twentieth century there were positive signs from the Muslim world. They were due to : - local customs atoning Islamic law - The modernist mentalities of post-colonization Nation-States However this is disappearing now, due to : - New globalized generations who conceive Islam not as local custom but as globally opposed to the Western world - The systematic destruction of the modern Muslim Nation-States by NATO Only in the mainstream media you hear that Bin Laden was captured because it suddenly became possible, and Lybian democratic forces suddenly rebelled against dictator Khadafi. In fact Bin Laden's capture was a public relations operation, which helped conceal the fact that Nato has been promoting Al-Qaida to fight in Lybia. This in turn helps establishing business interests in NATO-controlled Muslim countries, with Western capital controlling the big business, the local population subjected to religious obscurantism and not participating to the democratic defense of their rights, and in between a zealots mafia.. In Islam women do have rights, yes, like your teenage daughter has rights. Not like an adult professional woman has
Re: [Gendergap] Nudity vs Islam in Western Europe
On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org wrote: Of course the Christian Bible still says that women are subservient to their husbands (as Michelle Bachmann recently reminded us). It also endorses slavery, says that adulterers must be put to death, and requires men to grow beards. Gee, thanks for telling me what my religion teaches and believes - NOT! Try studying the variety of Christian teachings outside the televangelists sometime. -- Michael J. Orange Mike Lowrey When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes. -- Desiderius Erasmus ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] 13 year old joins WP Pornography?
For legal reasons you have to have a minimum age of 18 and kick off anyone who admits they are under 18 or are somehow exposed as being under 18. (Unless all those opposed want to put up their real names and addresses and personally claim full legal and financial responsibility for any criminal charges.) The question is, is there a legal duty to verify age of those who do not reveal their age? Or who lie about it, should there be a requirement they reveal it? On 9/23/2011 5:45 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: Whether or not the editor is indeed thirteen years old is probably relatively unimportant. What matters is that voices in the RfC generally (about 3:1) oppose the idea of a minimum age of 18 for contributors to the WikiProject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#RfC:_Should_underage_editors_be_topic_banned_from_articles_in_the_WikiProject_Pornography_topic_area.3F http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#RfC:_Should_underage_editors_be_topic_banned_from_articles_in_the_WikiProject_Pornography_topic_area.3F Andreas ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] 13 year old joins WP Pornography?
Here's a question: What if viewing pornography by anyone, of any age, is illegal where you live? Can you join WP:PORNOGRAPHY then? Not saying it's something you should risk, just saying. From, Emily On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 6:55 PM, carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote: For legal reasons you have to have a minimum age of 18 and kick off anyone who admits they are under 18 or are somehow exposed as being under 18. (Unless all those opposed want to put up their real names and addresses and personally claim full legal and financial responsibility for any criminal charges.) The question is, is there a legal duty to verify age of those who do not reveal their age? Or who lie about it, should there be a requirement they reveal it? On 9/23/2011 5:45 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: Whether or not the editor is indeed thirteen years old is probably relatively unimportant. What matters is that voices in the RfC generally (about 3:1) oppose the idea of a minimum age of 18 for contributors to the WikiProject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#RfC:_Should_underage_editors_be_topic_banned_from_articles_in_the_WikiProject_Pornography_topic_area.3F Andreas ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Nudity vs Islam in Western Europe
Michael Lowry, what you just said was said was sarcastic and potentially uncivil. Arnaud, (if you can read this) if you are serious about unsubscribing, be my guest, but if you should resubscribe, please don't threaten to unsubscribe. Just do it. I asked my question under the assumption that a lot of Muslims are either liberal or moderate, and therefore don't necessarily always interpret the koran literally (or even reject parts of it outright!) and that even conservative Muslims are going to be reasonable enough to realize that woman deserve equal rights as men. From, Emily On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Carol Moore in DC contac...@carolmoore.net wrote: Actually that's the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible which is accepted more or less by most of Christianity. Though obviously evangelicals take all of it more seriously, even some of the parts Jesus (allegedly) rejected. On 9/23/2011 7:23 PM, Michael J. Lowrey wrote: On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Ryan Kaldarirkald...@wikimedia.org wrote: Of course the Christian Bible still says that women are subservient to their husbands (as Michelle Bachmann recently reminded us). It also endorses slavery, says that adulterers must be put to death, and requires men to grow beards. Gee, thanks for telling me what my religion teaches and believes - NOT! Try studying the variety of Christian teachings outside the televangelists sometime. ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Re: [Gendergap] Nudity vs Islam in Western Europe
On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 9:19 PM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote: Your religion includes Roman Catholicism, the Church of Latter Day Saints, Christian Scientists, Watchtower Society, Russian Orthodox, Anglican, Coptic, Quakers, and Amish? Christianity, like Islam, has a lot of branches and you could say almost anything about Christianity and some sects it would be true in and others it would not. It would be accurate to say Jesus Christ is not divine and Jesus Christ is divine and different sects hold this to be true. It would also be true to say that Christianity is a driving force in the United States towards pushing women out of work and into the home, is opposed to women having access to birth control, and is opposed to abortion in all cases, and that women should be totally subservient to men, and that if you are moral, you don't need a doctor because Jesus will provide. The opposite could also be said and be equally as true. If you want to see how two opposite sides have aspects of the truth, look at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Abortion/Evidence . Okay, Ryan's statement was more sweepingly generalized than Carol's; I still consider that such sweeping more or less statements about other people's faiths have no place in a discussion forum such as this one; and I refuse to be even remotely apologetic for defending the religion of Martin Luther King, Ammon Hennacy, Ivan Illich, Dorothy Day and Norman Thomas. -- Michael J. Orange Mike Lowrey When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes. -- Desiderius Erasmus ___ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
