On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 2:22 AM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 6:37 AM, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org
wrote:
Yes, the traditional usage has been predominantly masculine, but in modern
usage, they is the dominant form. See my reply at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Gender-neutral_language#She_before_he.3F
Err...Ok, this might be a cultural thing..but why are you citing the
translator notes for the New international version of the Bible for a
grammatical choice?
The translators notes mention, The gender-neutral pronoun ‟they”
(‟them”/‟their”) is by far the most common way that English-language
speakers and writers today refer back to singular antecedents. The article
also goes on to mention, instances of what grammarians are increasingly
calling the ‟singular they” (‟them” or ‟their”) appear three times more
frequently than generic masculine forms.
I agree, it would probably make more sense to refer to style manuals
that deal with new texts, and write a Wikipedia article on gender
representation in the Bible. The given translation might or might not
add to the original, I am no expert, but it sure is an interesting
topic to delve into (see e.g.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/gender.html)
The wide-spread modern usage is shifting towards they, again impelled by
the desire to avoid sexist implications of HE, which is exactly what this
particular case involved. Grammarians apparently dispute the usage. It might
even come down to a stylistic choice in the end.
We have a nice article on singular they, the interesting thing is that
even Shakespeare and others before him have used it in its current
meaning, so its not a modern invention (regardless of its current
Renaissance).
From a prescriptive point of view, one might dispute it, from a
descriptivist point of view it is certainly part of the language. It
is up to the English Wikipedia community to decide what its house
style will include.
As we are on this topic, it would be interesting to see (again, in a
nicely collected Wikipedia article) to how pairs of gendered
expressions behave in different languages. Without further proof, I
would probably not read too much politics into any usage. For example,
we have in English he or she but we also use ladies and gentlemen
and probably there is a balance somewhere in the usage of men and
women vs. women and men.[1] In Hungarian we would probably say nők
és férfiak ('women and men') and hölgyek és urak ('ladies and
gentlemen'), while fortunately we only have on pronoun for 'he or
she': ő – so this problem doesn't come up. It is probably different
for various languages.
Also, as Theo notes, it would be interesting to cite some good
cognitive linguistics study on the effects of pronouns on people. I
have read about studies that show that the gender of objects in
different languages affects the speakers way of thinking of them (e.g.
describing a bridge as masculine or feminine based on its gender in
the language), but it would be interesting to see if the order of
pronouns has any measurable effect[2].
Anyhow, an interesting practice that might go against gender
stereotyping – although probably not in a factual encyclopedia article
– is to use simply she where one would have to use he, he or she
or they.
Best regards,
Bence
(also not a native speaker; male)
[1] The balance is in favour of the former, but for example, the UN
uses both with equal frequency, while preferring he or she over she
or he 20:1.
[2] I am not sure about cognitive connotations, but the strange order
of the phrase might be more difficult to read, and possibly cause
problems who have difficulties reading, thus having an effect on
accessibility of the text. (Probably not an issue in the great scheme
of things, but something to consider for Simple Wikipedia if one was
to transfer any agreed change in usage)
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