Re: Wiki Landing Page

[David T. via gnucash-devel]

Don, 
Your points about the Documentation web page are well-taken. I will consider 
what changes might be made there to better direct new users--in a separate 
thread. 
FWIW,  I am sunfish62 on the wiki. 
David

 
 
  On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 9:14, doncram wrote:   
To David T. and John --- Okay I have to apologize.  I didn't look carefully at 
the "Documentation" page at the website.  Each time I went there, I saw just 
the first section, whose entire text is:

There are two major GnuCash documentation packages to help users:
   
   - The Help Manual
   - The Tutorial and Concepts Guide

The Help Manual is designed to be a quick reference of how to accomplish 
specific tasks and how to use the features in GnuCash. The Concepts Guide is 
designed to be an in depth guide to the concepts behind using GnuCash with a 
tutorial to show how to put those concepts into practice.

Additionally, you can talk to someone via IRC at irc.gnome.org channel #gnucash 
about your question. Another resource is the English or Deutsch GnuCash wikis.

You can also send an email to the gnucash-user mailing list if you cannot find 
a satisfactory answer to your question within either the Help Manual or the 
Tutorial and Concepts Guide. We want feedback from you, it is also through your 
comments that we know how to improve the documentation.

GnuCash's documentation has been created by its community. See the Writing 
Documentation page if you are interested in contributing to this effort.

​That seemed to wrap it all up, i thought it was done, I did not see the 
following sections which have other stuff.  So I was completely wrong in my 
comments.  (It is a possible small side thing, that maybe the "Documentation" 
page there is confusing, because it confused me, but that is off-topic here.)  
I am sincerely sorry for being confused and causing confusion.
About the current draft webpage, at 
http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/GnuCash/sandbox, I am glad to see that "sunfish62" 
edited there already, fixing or improving from how I had left it.  Perhaps it 
is good to go now.  I think I should bug out now.
sincerely,Don

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:45 PM, David T.  wrote:

Don,

On May 29, 2017, at 10:24 PM, doncram  wrote:
About the suggested content now at http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/ 
GnuCash/sandbox, one objection that I have is that it refers readers to a 
Documentation page at the main gnucash.org website which provides nothing for 
them (it only contains links to the Help manual and the Tutorial and Concept 
Guide, and no other documentation). Specifically, the current content includes:
"For the latest documentation (i.e., unstable releases of the documentation), 
or to get documentation for other languages or earlier releases, see the 
[http://www.gnucash.org/docs. phtml Documentation] page on the GnuCash.org 
website."
It seems like a false statement, that a reader could get latest documentation 
or anything else there.  The content already does link to versions of the Help 
manual and the Tutorial and Concept Guide.  Are you suggesting those are not 
the latest versions?  Should the content clarify what versions they are?   

I agree with John’s comments about the utility of the main website 
documentation page. 
Moreover, the wiki links to the Help and Guide are to the most recent *stable* 
release of the documentation. As you may know, the documentation uses the same 
bug management process and version control to manage the docs. Changes that are 
accepted in the docs but not yet published in the official release (the 
“Nightly Documentation Builds”) may describe features that have not been 
implemented in the current release. This parallels the idea of the program’s 
nightly builds. They are called “unstable” for a reason, and this term is used 
in this project and in others to denote this. I have modified the sentence a 
little to bring this out a little more, but I do believe that it is clear what 
is on the web page. 
David


I am sort of afraid it may be impossible to come to any agreement about any 
wording, because there are too many people involved (and I guess I am now part 
of the problem).  I do hope that I am helping by suggesting that a clear 
proposal needs to be made by a complete new version at the sandbox.  The 
version there is deficient in my view in this one small way, at least.  --Don




  
___
gnucash-devel mailing list
gnucash-devel@gnucash.org
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

Re: Wiki Landing Page

[doncram]

To David T. and John --- Okay I have to apologize.  I didn't look carefully
at the "Documentation" page at the website.  Each time I went there, I saw
just the first section, whose entire text is:

There are two major GnuCash documentation packages to help users:

   - *The Help Manual* 
   - *The Tutorial and Concepts Guide*
   

The *Help Manual* is designed to be a quick reference of how to accomplish
specific tasks and how to use the features in GnuCash. The *Concepts Guide* is
designed to be an in depth guide to the concepts behind using GnuCash with
a tutorial to show how to put those concepts into practice.

Additionally, you can talk to someone via IRC at *irc.gnome.org
* channel *#gnucash* about your question. Another
resource is the English  or Deutsch
 GnuCash wikis.

You can also send an email to the gnucash-user
 mailing
list if you cannot find a satisfactory answer to your question within
either the *Help Manual* or the *Tutorial and Concepts Guide*. We
*want* feedback
from you, it is also through your comments that we know how to improve the
documentation.

GnuCash's documentation has been created by its community. See the Writing
Documentation page  if you are
interested in contributing to this effort.

​That seemed to wrap it all up, i thought it was done, I did not see the
following sections which have other stuff.  So I was completely wrong in my
comments.  (It is a possible small side thing, that maybe the
"Documentation" page there is confusing, because it confused me, but that
is off-topic here.)  I am sincerely sorry for being confused and causing
confusion.

About the current draft webpage, at
http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/GnuCash/sandbox, I am glad to see that
"sunfish62" edited there already, fixing or improving from how I had left
it.  Perhaps it is good to go now.  I think I should bug out now.

sincerely,
Don


On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:45 PM, David T.  wrote:

> Don,
>
> On May 29, 2017, at 10:24 PM, doncram  wrote:
>
> About the suggested content now at http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/
> GnuCash/sandbox, one objection that I have is that it refers readers to a
> Documentation page at the main gnucash.org website which provides nothing
> for them (it only contains links to the Help manual and the Tutorial and
> Concept Guide, and no other documentation). Specifically, the current
> content includes:
>
> "For the latest documentation (i.e., unstable releases of the
> documentation), or to get documentation for other languages or earlier
> releases, see the [http://www.gnucash.org/docs.phtml Documentation] page
> on the GnuCash.org  website."
>
> It seems like a false statement, that a reader could get latest
> documentation or anything else there.  The content already does link to
> versions of the Help manual and the Tutorial and Concept Guide.  Are you
> suggesting those are not the latest versions?  Should the content clarify
> what versions they are?
>
>
> I agree with John’s comments about the utility of the main website
> documentation page.
>
> Moreover, the wiki links to the Help and Guide are to the most recent
> *stable* release of the documentation. As you may know, the documentation
> uses the same bug management process and version control to manage the
> docs. Changes that are accepted in the docs but not yet published in the
> official release (the “Nightly Documentation Builds”) may describe features
> that have not been implemented in the current release. This parallels the
> idea of the program’s nightly builds. They are called “unstable” for a
> reason, and this term is used in this project and in others to denote this.
> I have modified the sentence a little to bring this out a little more, but
> I do believe that it is clear what is on the web page.
>
> David
>
>
> I am sort of afraid it may be impossible to come to any agreement about
> any wording, because there are too many people involved (and I guess I am
> now part of the problem).  I do hope that I am helping by suggesting that a
> clear proposal needs to be made by a complete new version at the sandbox.
> The version there is deficient in my view in this one small way, at least.
>  --Don
>
>
>
___
gnucash-devel mailing list
gnucash-devel@gnucash.org
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

Re: Wiki Landing Page

[David T. via gnucash-devel]

Don,

> On May 29, 2017, at 10:24 PM, doncram  wrote:
> 
> About the suggested content now at 
> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/GnuCash/sandbox 
> , one objection that I have is 
> that it refers readers to a Documentation page at the main gnucash.org 
>  website which provides nothing for them (it only 
> contains links to the Help manual and the Tutorial and Concept Guide, and no 
> other documentation). Specifically, the current content includes:
> 
> "For the latest documentation (i.e., unstable releases of the documentation), 
> or to get documentation for other languages or earlier releases, see the 
> [http://www.gnucash.org/docs.phtml  
> Documentation] page on the GnuCash.org website."
> 
> It seems like a false statement, that a reader could get latest documentation 
> or anything else there.  The content already does link to versions of the 
> Help manual and the Tutorial and Concept Guide.  Are you suggesting those are 
> not the latest versions?  Should the content clarify what versions they are?  
>  

I agree with John’s comments about the utility of the main website 
documentation page. 

Moreover, the wiki links to the Help and Guide are to the most recent *stable* 
release of the documentation. As you may know, the documentation uses the same 
bug management process and version control to manage the docs. Changes that are 
accepted in the docs but not yet published in the official release (the 
“Nightly Documentation Builds”) may describe features that have not been 
implemented in the current release. This parallels the idea of the program’s 
nightly builds. They are called “unstable” for a reason, and this term is used 
in this project and in others to denote this. I have modified the sentence a 
little to bring this out a little more, but I do believe that it is clear what 
is on the web page. 

David

> 
> I am sort of afraid it may be impossible to come to any agreement about any 
> wording, because there are too many people involved (and I guess I am now 
> part of the problem).  I do hope that I am helping by suggesting that a clear 
> proposal needs to be made by a complete new version at the sandbox.  The 
> version there is deficient in my view in this one small way, at least.  --Don
> 

___
gnucash-devel mailing list
gnucash-devel@gnucash.org
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

Re: Wiki Landing Page

[John Ralls]

> On May 29, 2017, at 10:24 AM, doncram  wrote:
> 
> About the suggested content now at 
> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/GnuCash/sandbox, one objection that I have is 
> that it refers readers to a Documentation page at the main gnucash.org 
> website which provides nothing for them (it only contains links to the Help 
> manual and the Tutorial and Concept Guide, and no other documentation). 
> Specifically, the current content includes:
> 
> "For the latest documentation (i.e., unstable releases of the documentation), 
> or to get documentation for other languages or earlier releases, see the 
> [http://www.gnucash.org/docs.phtml Documentation] page on the GnuCash.org 
> website."
> 
> It seems like a false statement, that a reader could get latest documentation 
> or anything else there.  The content already does link to versions of the 
> Help manual and the Tutorial and Concept Guide.  Are you suggesting those are 
> not the latest versions?  Should the content clarify what versions they are?  
>  
> 
> I am sort of afraid it may be impossible to come to any agreement about any 
> wording, because there are too many people involved (and I guess I am now 
> part of the problem).  I do hope that I am helping by suggesting that a clear 
> proposal needs to be made by a complete new version at the sandbox.  The 
> version there is deficient in my view in this one small way, at least.  --Don
> 

Don,

Why do you think that there's nothing useful on 
http://www.gnucash.org/docs.phtml? I don't like the implication that the 
"unstable" documentation should be considered the "latest" for many users (any 
differences generally reflect changes in the development branch of GnuCash), 
but the rest of the sentence is absolutely correct. It could go further by 
saying that PDF, ePub, and mobi downloads are also available there.

Regards,
John Ralls

___
gnucash-devel mailing list
gnucash-devel@gnucash.org
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

Re: Wiki Landing Page

[doncram]

About the suggested content now at
http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/GnuCash/sandbox, one objection that I have is
that it refers readers to a Documentation page at the main gnucash.org
website which provides nothing for them (it only contains links to the Help
manual and the Tutorial and Concept Guide, and no other documentation).
Specifically, the current content includes:

"For the latest documentation (i.e., unstable releases of the
documentation), or to get documentation for other languages or earlier
releases, see the [http://www.gnucash.org/docs.phtml Documentation] page on
the GnuCash.org website."

It seems like a false statement, that a reader could get latest
documentation or anything else there.  The content already does link to
versions of the Help manual and the Tutorial and Concept Guide.  Are you
suggesting those are not the latest versions?  Should the content clarify
what versions they are?

I am sort of afraid it may be impossible to come to any agreement about any
wording, because there are too many people involved (and I guess I am now
part of the problem).  I do hope that I am helping by suggesting that a
clear proposal needs to be made by a complete new version at the sandbox.
The version there is deficient in my view in this one small way, at least.
 --Don
___
gnucash-devel mailing list
gnucash-devel@gnucash.org
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel

Re: Wiki Landing Page

[doncram]

Hi David T. and jralls.   Thanks David T. for doing that.  And now 7 days
have gone by and I find I can create pages in the Wiki, also.   I hope you
don't mind I am taking some bold steps to try to move this along better, in
my view, and to avoid confusion, although it may temporarily cause some
confusion among just us.

The version that David T. created at wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Wikihomesandbox had
some content that David T. is proposing, but it was not a "sandbox" like I
was meaning to suggest, because it was not a full version of the proposed
new mainpage.  The point with the sandbox is to have a full version that
people can review and see is okay.  It is too confusing to talk about
changes otherwise, given short available time/attention from very few
editors/developers around.  A new proposal should be crystal clear.  Also,
it was not placed at a subpage of the mainpage, which I find potentially
confusing.  Also, the page did not start as a copy of the mainpage, so
diffs will not show what was changed.  We want it to be easy for editors to
see what was changed.

It was good in that it did self-identify at the top what it was intended to
be, but that itself is a little confusing, because that self-identification
is meant not to be included in the new mainpage.  I am reminded that in
Wikipedia, a sandbox for a protected page is identified by a boxed template
displaying at the top, which is very clearly separate from the text that
follows.  I will try to find or create such a template for use within this
GnuCash wiki.

The way I want to proceed is to create a full new version of mainpage, at
http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/GnuCash/sandbox.   So just now I copied in the
entire content of the GnuCash mainpage, itself, to there, to start a page.
Except for an external link to Paktpub publishing company, which a spam
filter would not allow me to keep.   Then I made the changes that I think
David T. is suggesting, i.e. to replace the Documentation section with his
drafted text, etc.  I removed most of the mainpage text, and copy-pasted
his entire content in, instead.

Please see [
http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/index.php?title=GnuCash%2Fsandbox=revision=12690=12687
this diff], which shows what I temporarily understand to be David T.'s
intended changes to the mainpage.   David T., I bet that is not completely
the new version of mainpage that you intended.  Perhaps you intended to
keep some existing sections besides the leading one?  Please make further
revisions there.

At the page you created, I put a link to the new sandbox page.  I hope you
don't mind.  In a wiki, it is possible to revert back to the old version of
a page, so nothing is lost.  If you do mind, and want to continue
developing there instead of at the new sandbox page, then unfortunately I
think it will be more confusing, and my effort to "help" now will turn out
to have hurt rather than helped.  But I could then try to help by
deleting/undoing everything I have now done, so as to try to erase any sign
of disagreement about how to proceed.  (But then, I would find it hard to
support your suggested changes, because for me it is hard to see what the
suggested changes are... so I would probably just say nothing further on
how the wiki mainpage should appear, and I would try to make contributions
elsewhere.)

What I would prefer is for you both to make revisions to the
http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/GnuCash/sandbox, and perhaps also to have some
discussion at the Talk page of the mainpage about whether it is ready or
not (or such discussion can happen in emails).

Hope this helps, knock on wood
Don

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 11:49 PM, David T.  wrote:

> OK, I have created wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Wikihomesandbox with my proposed
> changes.
>
> David
>
> On May 28, 2017, at 10:35 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel <
> gnucash-devel@gnucash.org> wrote:
>
> I'll put my proposed page up in a day or two. I just hope it doesn't
> become the next "Draft Concept guide" on the wiki.
> Is there a way to set a "destroy by" date on a wiki page?
> David
>
>
>
>  On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 9:09, John Ralls wrote:
>
> On May 27, 2017, at 5:03 PM, doncram  wrote:
> Could someone please open a page at
> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/GnuCash/sandbox  for me and David T. to edit
> at.  :)  I am not allowed to create a new page.  Or I can wait a few more
> days and see whether I automatically get rights to create new wiki pages,
> which I was told may happen after being emailconfirmed for a week.
>
>
>
> David T. can create a page should he feels so motivated.
> Regards,John Ralls
>
> ___
> gnucash-devel mailing list
> gnucash-devel@gnucash.org
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
>
>
>
___
gnucash-devel mailing list
gnucash-devel@gnucash.org
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel