Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

2018-09-16 Thread Frank H. Ellenberger 
Am 16.09.18 um 18:55 schrieb Geert Janssens:
> Op zaterdag 15 september 2018 19:31:26 CEST schreef David T. via gnucash-
> devel:
>> And if we’re going there, the main project includes numerous README files in
>> gnucash/doc, all of which need similar treatment. README files for WIN32,
>> HCBI and OFX should IMHO be removed altogether in favor of other venues
>> (didn’t HBCI get replaced by FinTS in, like, 2002?).
> 
> The Windows README files are a special case, they serve as introductory text 
> in the Windows installer. So they can't be removed. But perhaps we can move 
> them to the gnucash-on-windows repository. I'd have to check where the 
> installer code expects them and whether we can change this.
> 
> As for HBCI I think it's still called like that in Germany. But Frank will 
> have to confirm this. What other venues do you suggest for HBCI and OFX ?

Yes, in 2002 FinTS 3.0 was released as successor of HBCI 2.2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FinTS
A few more details in
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Transaction_Services

The today most common PIN/TAN methods are strictly seen no part of HBCI,
but of FinTS.

And recently on the german list a banker told a user HBCI is obsolete.
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-de/2018-September/010467.html

IIRC, when I started some renaming in our references, Christian had a
few objections. So let us ask him about his recent opinion.

> And as you're finding issues faster than we can fix them, please file a bug 
> report. It will get lost here on the list archives.

+1

> Geert

~Frank

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Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

2018-09-16 Thread John Ralls 


> On Sep 16, 2018, at 9:55 AM, Geert Janssens  
> wrote:
> 
> Op zaterdag 15 september 2018 19:31:26 CEST schreef David T. via gnucash-
> devel:
>> And if we’re going there, the main project includes numerous README files in
>> gnucash/doc, all of which need similar treatment. README files for WIN32,
>> HCBI and OFX should IMHO be removed altogether in favor of other venues
>> (didn’t HBCI get replaced by FinTS in, like, 2002?).
> 
> The Windows README files are a special case, they serve as introductory text 
> in the Windows installer. So they can't be removed. But perhaps we can move 
> them to the gnucash-on-windows repository. I'd have to check where the 
> installer code expects them and whether we can change this.

The installer code expects them where they are, of course, but that's easily 
changed if they really belong somewhere else or should have a different name.

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

2018-09-16 Thread Geert Janssens 
Op zaterdag 15 september 2018 19:31:26 CEST schreef David T. via gnucash-
devel:
> And if we’re going there, the main project includes numerous README files in
> gnucash/doc, all of which need similar treatment. README files for WIN32,
> HCBI and OFX should IMHO be removed altogether in favor of other venues
> (didn’t HBCI get replaced by FinTS in, like, 2002?).

The Windows README files are a special case, they serve as introductory text 
in the Windows installer. So they can't be removed. But perhaps we can move 
them to the gnucash-on-windows repository. I'd have to check where the 
installer code expects them and whether we can change this.

As for HBCI I think it's still called like that in Germany. But Frank will 
have to confirm this. What other venues do you suggest for HBCI and OFX ?

And as you're finding issues faster than we can fix them, please file a bug 
report. It will get lost here on the list archives.

Geert


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Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

2018-09-15 Thread Adrien Monteleone 
Perhaps ‘double entry accounting’ would be more accurate than ‘financial 
management’.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Sep 15, 2018, at 12:21 PM, David T. via gnucash-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> To be specific: in the main README, I would eliminate the Overview 
> altogether, and replace it with:
> 
> GnuCash is a double entry personal and small business financial management 
> package.
> 
> Home Page:
> http://www.gnucash.org/
> 
> Precompiled binaries:
> http://www.gnucash.org/download
> 
> That is it.
> 
> All the remaining sections should be altered to refer readers to the fuller 
> and more up-to-date information as it resides elsewhere (most notably, on the 
> wiki or website).
> 


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Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

2018-09-15 Thread David T. via gnucash-devel 



> On Sep 15, 2018, at 1:22 PM, John Ralls  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> Furthermore, in the interest of eliminating bit rot and in using the right 
>> tool for the right job, I would strip the README back drastically to cover 
>> only basic technical details on downloading, installing, and running 
>> GnuCash. Everything else should go, IMHO.
> 
> With pointers to where to find the other information, of course...
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls


Of course! Always my intention.
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Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

2018-09-15 Thread David T. via gnucash-devel 
And if we’re going there, the main project includes numerous README files in 
gnucash/doc, all of which need similar treatment. README files for WIN32, HCBI 
and OFX should IMHO be removed altogether in favor of other venues (didn’t HBCI 
get replaced by FinTS in, like, 2002?).

David

> On Sep 15, 2018, at 1:21 PM, David T.  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2018, at 12:55 PM, David T. via gnucash-devel 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2018, at 5:29 AM, Frank H. Ellenberger 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> As we are already there,
>>> 
>>> one of you Davids might also review
>>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/README section overview,
>>> 
>>> and probably  files in
>>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/tree/maint/doc
>>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/blob/maint/gnucash-docs.spec.in
>>> ...
>>> which borrow the intro
>>> 
>>> There have been "shiny new features" of 1.x which no one any longer
>>> would mention for the 3.x series.
>>> 
>> 
>> Honestly, I think the text in the README would more accurately reflect 
>> John’s concerns about the breathless tone found in the Guide, and so I am 
>> more likely to put *that* text into the Guide, rather go the other way. 
>> 
>> Furthermore, in the interest of eliminating bit rot and in using the right 
>> tool for the right job, I would strip the README back drastically to cover 
>> only basic technical details on downloading, installing, and running 
>> GnuCash. Everything else should go, IMHO.
>> 
>> David
>> 
> 
> To be specific: in the main README, I would eliminate the Overview 
> altogether, and replace it with:
> 
> GnuCash is a double entry personal and small business financial management 
> package.
> 
> Home Page:
> http://www.gnucash.org/
> 
> Precompiled binaries:
> http://www.gnucash.org/download
> 
> That is it.
> 
> All the remaining sections should be altered to refer readers to the fuller 
> and more up-to-date information as it resides elsewhere (most notably, on the 
> wiki or website).
> 
>> ___
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>> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
> 

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Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

2018-09-15 Thread John Ralls 


> On Sep 15, 2018, at 9:55 AM, David T.  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2018, at 5:29 AM, Frank H. Ellenberger 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> As we are already there,
>> 
>> one of you Davids might also review
>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/README section overview,
>> 
>> and probably  files in
>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/tree/maint/doc
>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/blob/maint/gnucash-docs.spec.in
>> ...
>> which borrow the intro
>> 
>> There have been "shiny new features" of 1.x which no one any longer
>> would mention for the 3.x series.
>> 
> 
> Honestly, I think the text in the README would more accurately reflect John’s 
> concerns about the breathless tone found in the Guide, and so I am more 
> likely to put *that* text into the Guide, rather go the other way. 
> 
> Furthermore, in the interest of eliminating bit rot and in using the right 
> tool for the right job, I would strip the README back drastically to cover 
> only basic technical details on downloading, installing, and running GnuCash. 
> Everything else should go, IMHO.

With pointers to where to find the other information, of course...

Regards,
John Ralls
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Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

2018-09-15 Thread David T. via gnucash-devel 


> On Sep 15, 2018, at 12:55 PM, David T. via gnucash-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2018, at 5:29 AM, Frank H. Ellenberger 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> As we are already there,
>> 
>> one of you Davids might also review
>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/README section overview,
>> 
>> and probably  files in
>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/tree/maint/doc
>> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/blob/maint/gnucash-docs.spec.in
>> ...
>> which borrow the intro
>> 
>> There have been "shiny new features" of 1.x which no one any longer
>> would mention for the 3.x series.
>> 
> 
> Honestly, I think the text in the README would more accurately reflect John’s 
> concerns about the breathless tone found in the Guide, and so I am more 
> likely to put *that* text into the Guide, rather go the other way. 
> 
> Furthermore, in the interest of eliminating bit rot and in using the right 
> tool for the right job, I would strip the README back drastically to cover 
> only basic technical details on downloading, installing, and running GnuCash. 
> Everything else should go, IMHO.
> 
> David
> 

To be specific: in the main README, I would eliminate the Overview altogether, 
and replace it with:

GnuCash is a double entry personal and small business financial management 
package.

Home Page:
http://www.gnucash.org/

Precompiled binaries:
http://www.gnucash.org/download

That is it.

All the remaining sections should be altered to refer readers to the fuller and 
more up-to-date information as it resides elsewhere (most notably, on the wiki 
or website).

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Re: [GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

2018-09-15 Thread David T. via gnucash-devel 


> On Sep 15, 2018, at 5:29 AM, Frank H. Ellenberger 
>  wrote:
> 
> As we are already there,
> 
> one of you Davids might also review
> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/README section overview,
> 
> and probably  files in
> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/tree/maint/doc
> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/blob/maint/gnucash-docs.spec.in
> ...
> which borrow the intro
> 
> There have been "shiny new features" of 1.x which no one any longer
> would mention for the 3.x series.
> 

Honestly, I think the text in the README would more accurately reflect John’s 
concerns about the breathless tone found in the Guide, and so I am more likely 
to put *that* text into the Guide, rather go the other way. 

Furthermore, in the interest of eliminating bit rot and in using the right tool 
for the right job, I would strip the README back drastically to cover only 
basic technical details on downloading, installing, and running GnuCash. 
Everything else should go, IMHO.

David

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[GNC-dev] README Overview; was: Gnome HIG

2018-09-15 Thread Frank H. Ellenberger 
As we are already there,

one of you Davids might also review
https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/README section overview,

and probably  files in
https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/tree/maint/doc
https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/blob/maint/gnucash-docs.spec.in
...
which borrow the intro

There have been "shiny new features" of 1.x which no one any longer
would mention for the 3.x series.

Frank

Am 15.09.18 um 00:42 schrieb John Ralls:
> We're probably pretty compliant with the Gnome 2.0 HIG, but the Gnome HIG has 
> changed over the years and GnuCash's UI hasn't. Just switching to Gtk3 
> probably got us some updates just because Gtk is what implements the HIG, but 
> that would have been largely inadvertent.
> 
> For the purposes of the documentation I don't think we should be making any 
> claims like that.
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls
> 
> 
>> On Sep 14, 2018, at 11:57 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> In the course of another arduous and lengthy thread, the question of the 
>> Gnome HIG came up. I attach the text in question below.
>>
>> My question is whether the Guide needs changing at 1.2.1, where it says:
>> Easy to Use Menus: GnuCash menus conform to the GNOME Human Interface 
>> Guidelines. This means that they are simple and similar in appearance to 
>> many other GNOME applications. 
>>
>> Is this statement inaccurate? Should it be removed?
>>
>> David
>>
>>  
>> Previous discussion:
>>
>> I don't know about allowing room for it, but it's pretty far in the future 
>> because we still have too many Gnome dependencies in the core and too many 
>> MVC violations to be able to implement a different toolkit.
>>
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Adrien Monteleone 
>>> mailto:adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net>> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Then I misunderstood some earlier discussions about the UI, at least with 
>>> respect to Linux. What toolkit is envisioned to be used? What layout 
>>> principles? Or are those questions so far in the future as to not be worth 
>>> spending time allowing room for?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Adrien
>>>
 On Sep 11, 2018, at 12:18 PM, John Ralls >>> > wrote:



> On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Adrien Monteleone 
> mailto:adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net>> 
> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Sep 11, 2018, at 8:13 AM, David T. via gnucash-devel 
>> mailto:gnucash-devel@gnucash.org>> wrote:
>>
>> In other words, unless there is a change in function, there is no need 
>> to change the functional description. It seems to me that putting text 
>> that doesn’t change into code is essentially a one-time process. Not 
>> necessarily easy, but once completed, not particularly obtrusive. 
>> Putting the functional description into code has the added benefit, 
>> perhaps, of alerting developers to the fact that if they change a 
>> feature, the description (right there in the code) needs an update as 
>> well.
>
> While the principles might not change, or even the name/label of certain 
> buttons, the UI layout (where those buttons are, the fact that they are 
> buttons instead of menu entries, etc.) will very likely change as the 
> Gnome HIG is more faithfully implemented. But those code changes 
> shouldn’t affect anything generally in the Guide, and should auto update 
> the context help if it is drawn from the code itself. If not, then 
> consider that attempts to corral GnuCash within the confines of the Gnome 
> HIG, will produce such changes you’re thinking won’t happen.

 Why do you think we're going to "more faithfully implement" the Gnome HIG? 
 One of our long-term goals is to remove our Gnome dependencies. 

 Regards,
 John Ralls
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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