Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Mike, I am adopting an approach of not addressing directly specific examples from a particular religious/culturual tradition but of abstracting and illustrating general accounting approaches/principles that may be used using GnuCash to record transactions for non-interest bearing loans which I hope may then be adaptable to the requirements in a specific case or tradition. The danger is of course that it can be so general that users in those traditions may not be able to recognize the applicability to their specific case. I have made a start on such a page https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Non_Interest_Bearing_Loans which is standalone and not yet linked into the main wiki system. I had some experience during my Accounting masters several years ago having to prepare a thesis exploring accounting practices in India/Bangladesh which encompassed Shari'a law and the evolving microfinance system there. However a brief read through the introduction to Jacob Neusner's "A History of the Mishnaic Law of Damages", which came up in a reference to iron sheep contracts, has convinced me that while it may be interesting, it may be unwise given my anticipated remaining life expectancy, to delve too deeply. The good thing about the Wiki is that it is quite easily edited and can be commented on directly in the associated Talk page or here on the forum, either User or Dev as appropriate and it should provide a good test bed for material for later inclusion in the Tutorial and Concepts Guide. Once I am a bit further along with an outline and some content, I will post a link inviting more general comment in the User forum, particularly from users from non-western traditions. Greater depth would really require input from users with deeper accounting knowledge in the specific traditions which may or may not be available. David Cousens On Sat, 2018-12-15 at 09:37 -0500, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: > On 12/14/2018 10:26 AM, David Cousens wrote: > > Frank, > > > > Will give it a go. Hamid is possibly right in that it will be too complex to > > deal with the various possibilities but I will see if I can illustrate a few > > simple cases. > > > > David > > It is definitely too complex. There are simply far too many variants > possible. And many of them would not be properly entered as loans << > except perhaps that "iron sheep" contract (illegal* in Jewish law > referring to no interest "loans" >> I mentioned which DOES have a > definite minimum amount that must be repaid >> > > What I would suggest is that before any attempt is made to code or even > describe how in documentation is that a discussion be opened in the user > group where people can describe variants. While I am against us > "amateurs" giving accounting advice, this is a situation where standard > accountant training might not be useful and the average accountant > likely to respond "I never heard about an arrangement like that". Once > we have classified variants, we would be in a better position deciding > how to proceed. > > Michael D Novack > > * In effect partnership agreements where upon dissolution, capital > returned based on percentage contributed, both partners share in > profits (per what is agreed) but one bears all the risk of loss. In > other words, a "loan" where instead of interest, the lender receives a > share of profits (but bears no risk if a loss). > ___ > gnucash-devel mailing list > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
On 12/14/2018 10:26 AM, David Cousens wrote: Frank, Will give it a go. Hamid is possibly right in that it will be too complex to deal with the various possibilities but I will see if I can illustrate a few simple cases. David It is definitely too complex. There are simply far too many variants possible. And many of them would not be properly entered as loans << except perhaps that "iron sheep" contract (illegal* in Jewish law referring to no interest "loans" >> I mentioned which DOES have a definite minimum amount that must be repaid >> What I would suggest is that before any attempt is made to code or even describe how in documentation is that a discussion be opened in the user group where people can describe variants. While I am against us "amateurs" giving accounting advice, this is a situation where standard accountant training might not be useful and the average accountant likely to respond "I never heard about an arrangement like that". Once we have classified variants, we would be in a better position deciding how to proceed. Michael D Novack * In effect partnership agreements where upon dissolution, capital returned based on percentage contributed, both partners share in profits (per what is agreed) but one bears all the risk of loss. In other words, a "loan" where instead of interest, the lender receives a share of profits (but bears no risk if a loss). ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Hi, Am 15.12.18 um 10:30 schrieb David T. via gnucash-devel: > Um, I wouldn't see putting this as a direct link of the top page of the wiki. I absolutly agree. > It's a rather specific use case. Without digging into the wiki, I'd see it > more as something from the Using Gnucash page, or the FAQ. > Both, links are cheap. ~Frank ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
OK Geert, I'll create it that way thenlook for a suitable place to link it in as David T suggested. David - David Cousens -- Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-Dev-f1435356.html ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Um, I wouldn't see putting this as a direct link of the top page of the wiki. It's a rather specific use case. Without digging into the wiki, I'd see it more as something from the Using Gnucash page, or the FAQ. On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 13:06, Geert Janssens wrote: Op zaterdag 15 december 2018 08:23:55 CET schreef David Cousens: > Frank > I really can't see a logical place in the Wiki to add something on non > interest bearing loans. If under Localization, I will need someone to create > a link to a page I can put it together on as I don't have edit rights on > the wiki front page but I can edit pages linked from it. Perhaps a title > like "Non Interest Bearing Loans" > > David David, I believe it works the other way around: You first create your page and then someone with rights can add it to the front page. You can create a new page by searching for it. As it's new the search results will have an option to create it. As far as I understand, we give page creation rights to every wiki editor. Regards, Geert ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Op zaterdag 15 december 2018 08:23:55 CET schreef David Cousens: > Frank > I really can't see a logical place in the Wiki to add something on non > interest bearing loans. If under Localization, I will need someone to create > a link to a page I can put it together on as I don't have edit rights on > the wiki front page but I can edit pages linked from it. Perhaps a title > like "Non Interest Bearing Loans" > > David David, I believe it works the other way around: You first create your page and then someone with rights can add it to the front page. You can create a new page by searching for it. As it's new the search results will have an option to create it. As far as I understand, we give page creation rights to every wiki editor. Regards, Geert ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Frank I really can't see a logical place in the Wiki to add something on non interest bearing loans. If under Localization, I will need someone to create a link to a page I can put it together on as I don't have edit rights on the wiki front page but I can edit pages linked from it. Perhaps a title like "Non Interest Bearing Loans" David - David Cousens -- Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-Dev-f1435356.html ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Frank, Will give it a go. Hamid is possibly right in that it will be too complex to deal with the various possibilities but I will see if I can illustrate a few simple cases. David - David Cousens -- Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-Dev-f1435356.html ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Hi. as ISTR questions about this theme have been on the user list before and it seems not to be trivial, I would like to ask: David, can you condense your findings into a separate wiki page "Zero Interest Loans" or similar? All others can then contribute there and we can share the link, where desired. TIA Frank Am 14.12.18 um 12:55 schrieb Hamidreza Jafari: > On پنجشنبه ۱۳ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۷:۵۲:۱۱ (+0330) David Cousens wrote: >> Hamid, >> >> What would you envisage a loan calculator for a zero interest loan >> providing? How would you envisage such a calculator dealing with the five >> loan types often encountered in Islamic finance e.g. Murabaha >> Mudarabah >> Ijara >> Musharaka >> Wakala. >> As far as I can see these are all dealt with by (Principal + profit)/No of >> repayments. Any further complexities are likely to be contractual in basis >> rather than in the accounting. >> >> If you can describe what you would like to have GnuCash do, in dealing with >> such loans, then we are better able to assess how to meet your needs. >> >> You are right in that it is also highly likely that the original developer >> did not envisage dealing with a zero interest loan for some obvious >> reasons. The formulae commonly used to calculate the payment for an >> interest bearing loan is proportional to the interest rate and the present >> value of the loan, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage_calculator, >> which would result in a zero value payment for a zero value interest rate >> which is more than likely why a zero interest rate has been excluded in the >> existing assistant code. >> >> As other have pointed out and the above article in Wikipedia describes, the >> payment in the case of zero interest becomes simply the principal of the >> loan divided by the number of payments to be made. This is not a complex >> calculation as in the case of an interest bearing loan, which is why a >> calculated payment schedule is not really required. >> >> GnuCash is developed almost entirely by volunteers and there are only a >> relatively small number of people with a comprehensive knowledge of the >> code able to add new features, so incorporating new features requires a >> developer with: >> >> 1 the time to tackle the problem (bugs which prevent GnuCash from working >> correctly are a higher priority than new features; >> 2 the expertise to tackle it; >> 3 usually a specific interest in the area of the problem.; >> 4 the problem having a priority with the user base (i.e. the number of users >> requesting a solution). >> >> As a result new features can sometimes take some time to be developed and >> incorporated into the GnuCash. >> >> The way to get new features incorporated is to go to >> https://bugs.gnucash.org and enter a description of the problem you would >> like to have addressed describing it as completely as possible. That will >> at least get your problem into the queue and development cycle, where it >> can at least compete with existing bugs/feature requests for priority. >> >> In the mean time, the suggestions people have made are to help you achieve a >> way of using GnuCash to achieve your ends using the existing features of >> GnuCash, until such time as GnuCash can be improved. That is a prime >> function of the forum. >> >> It may be that a simple change in the code to allow a zero interest rate in >> the current loan assistant is all that is required. Even small changes take >> some time however as the GnuCash code is complex and changes introduced in >> one area can result in unexpected results and problems in other areas of >> the code. >> >> >> David Cousens >> >> On Thu, 2018-12-13 at 05:09 +0330, Hamidreza Jafari wrote: >>> On چهارشنبه ۱۲ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۱۷:۳۱:۲۱ (+0330) Christopher Lam wrote: >>> Many on the list are mentioning that the scenario is possible but simply >>> not provisioned in the part that does it automatically which here it is >>> the calculator. The stress so far evident in discussions causes one to >>> question if this was even originally intended, that is manual operation. >>> If so that has to change. I am not currently in need of such feature but >>> a high view will require that work that can be automated, should be >>> automated. >>> >>> About improving GnuCash, I would rather finish the translation sooner but >>> redesign and extension is possible when practical usage gets momentum. >>> >>> Hamid >>> Hi I am not an original developer on this loan assistant. However I think that the original loan druid was designed to calculate/estimate the loan repayment amounts, assuming a conventional loan, with a non-zero interest rate. If the interest rate was zero, there would be little need for a loan druid. e.g. original loan = $1,000 and 20 repayments of $50 each... A simple calculator would do the trick. I do not think there has ever been a policy against having a zero-rated loan... but I think that the loan module has not
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
On پنجشنبه ۱۳ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۷:۵۲:۱۱ (+0330) David Cousens wrote: > Hamid, > > What would you envisage a loan calculator for a zero interest loan > providing? How would you envisage such a calculator dealing with the five > loan types often encountered in Islamic finance e.g. Murabaha > Mudarabah > Ijara > Musharaka > Wakala. > As far as I can see these are all dealt with by (Principal + profit)/No of > repayments. Any further complexities are likely to be contractual in basis > rather than in the accounting. > > If you can describe what you would like to have GnuCash do, in dealing with > such loans, then we are better able to assess how to meet your needs. > > You are right in that it is also highly likely that the original developer > did not envisage dealing with a zero interest loan for some obvious > reasons. The formulae commonly used to calculate the payment for an > interest bearing loan is proportional to the interest rate and the present > value of the loan, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage_calculator, > which would result in a zero value payment for a zero value interest rate > which is more than likely why a zero interest rate has been excluded in the > existing assistant code. > > As other have pointed out and the above article in Wikipedia describes, the > payment in the case of zero interest becomes simply the principal of the > loan divided by the number of payments to be made. This is not a complex > calculation as in the case of an interest bearing loan, which is why a > calculated payment schedule is not really required. > > GnuCash is developed almost entirely by volunteers and there are only a > relatively small number of people with a comprehensive knowledge of the > code able to add new features, so incorporating new features requires a > developer with: > > 1 the time to tackle the problem (bugs which prevent GnuCash from working > correctly are a higher priority than new features; > 2 the expertise to tackle it; > 3 usually a specific interest in the area of the problem.; > 4 the problem having a priority with the user base (i.e. the number of users > requesting a solution). > > As a result new features can sometimes take some time to be developed and > incorporated into the GnuCash. > > The way to get new features incorporated is to go to > https://bugs.gnucash.org and enter a description of the problem you would > like to have addressed describing it as completely as possible. That will > at least get your problem into the queue and development cycle, where it > can at least compete with existing bugs/feature requests for priority. > > In the mean time, the suggestions people have made are to help you achieve a > way of using GnuCash to achieve your ends using the existing features of > GnuCash, until such time as GnuCash can be improved. That is a prime > function of the forum. > > It may be that a simple change in the code to allow a zero interest rate in > the current loan assistant is all that is required. Even small changes take > some time however as the GnuCash code is complex and changes introduced in > one area can result in unexpected results and problems in other areas of > the code. > > > David Cousens > > On Thu, 2018-12-13 at 05:09 +0330, Hamidreza Jafari wrote: > > On چهارشنبه ۱۲ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۱۷:۳۱:۲۱ (+0330) Christopher Lam wrote: > > Many on the list are mentioning that the scenario is possible but simply > > not provisioned in the part that does it automatically which here it is > > the calculator. The stress so far evident in discussions causes one to > > question if this was even originally intended, that is manual operation. > > If so that has to change. I am not currently in need of such feature but > > a high view will require that work that can be automated, should be > > automated. > > > > About improving GnuCash, I would rather finish the translation sooner but > > redesign and extension is possible when practical usage gets momentum. > > > > Hamid > > > > > Hi > > > I am not an original developer on this loan assistant. > > > However I think that the original loan druid was designed to > > > calculate/estimate the loan repayment amounts, assuming a conventional > > > loan, with a non-zero interest rate. > > > If the interest rate was zero, there would be little need for a loan > > > druid. > > > e.g. original loan = $1,000 and 20 repayments of $50 each... A simple > > > calculator would do the trick. > > > I do not think there has ever been a policy against having a zero-rated > > > loan... but I think that the loan module has not been properly tested > > > with > > > such figures. So, I am not entirely sure that a "simple refactoring" is > > > a > > > good description of the process; it would require a complete review of > > > the > > > loan assistant, and more testing of code to handle zero-interest loans, > > > to > > > ensure crashes such as division-by-zero do not occur. > > > There is very little time developer CPU cycles
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Hamid, I have looked in a bit more detail at the possibility of producing a loan calculator for Islamic finance, principally at Musharaka type loans in which the investor is assigned equity in the business. The major difficulty in implementing any sort of calculator in this case is that payments to the investor depend on the profit made by the business and the fraction of the equity in the business the investor has purchased. The profit is an unknown quantity before the end of any repayment period which is then shared on an agreed basis between the original owner and the investor on the basis of their respective equities. There is no way to predict the payment until the profit for the business is calculated from the books for the period. It is even more complex where the share of equity of the investor is decreased over time by repayment at a rate higher than the investors share of the profit for the same reason that the profit is not a quantity that is necessarily calculable from the nominal value of the business. This makes it impossible to calculate future payments, and the equity and outstanding principal of the loan at a future time in the way one can with a loan with an interest rate. I can derive a sequence of calculations which must be carried out at the end of each repayment period once the profit for that period is available, but this sequence cannot possibly converge to give any future predictable results as each period a new unknown quantity is introduced into the calulation which is independent of any fixed parameters of the calculation. In such a case one would be better maintaining a calculation in a spreadsheet which updates when the profit is available and simply transferring the quantities to the transactions entered into GnuCash. I have not looked at other loan types but they all appear to have a payment calculated in some manner from profits which is an unknown quantity. In the case of Ijara type contracts, the lease schedule of payments appears to be part of the contract and is whatever is agreed between the lessee and the lessor, i.e. ther is no need to calculate it because it is already prespecified in the contract. David Cousens - David Cousens -- Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-Dev-f1435356.html ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Hamid, What would you envisage a loan calculator for a zero interest loan providing? How would you envisage such a calculator dealing with the five loan types often encountered in Islamic finance e.g. Murabaha Mudarabah Ijara Musharaka Wakala. As far as I can see these are all dealt with by (Principal + profit)/No of repayments. Any further complexities are likely to be contractual in basis rather than in the accounting. If you can describe what you would like to have GnuCash do, in dealing with such loans, then we are better able to assess how to meet your needs. You are right in that it is also highly likely that the original developer did not envisage dealing with a zero interest loan for some obvious reasons. The formulae commonly used to calculate the payment for an interest bearing loan is proportional to the interest rate and the present value of the loan, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage_calculator, which would result in a zero value payment for a zero value interest rate which is more than likely why a zero interest rate has been excluded in the existing assistant code. As other have pointed out and the above article in Wikipedia describes, the payment in the case of zero interest becomes simply the principal of the loan divided by the number of payments to be made. This is not a complex calculation as in the case of an interest bearing loan, which is why a calculated payment schedule is not really required. GnuCash is developed almost entirely by volunteers and there are only a relatively small number of people with a comprehensive knowledge of the code able to add new features, so incorporating new features requires a developer with: 1 the time to tackle the problem (bugs which prevent GnuCash from working correctly are a higher priority than new features; 2 the expertise to tackle it; 3 usually a specific interest in the area of the problem.; 4 the problem having a priority with the user base (i.e. the number of users requesting a solution). As a result new features can sometimes take some time to be developed and incorporated into the GnuCash. The way to get new features incorporated is to go to https://bugs.gnucash.org and enter a description of the problem you would like to have addressed describing it as completely as possible. That will at least get your problem into the queue and development cycle, where it can at least compete with existing bugs/feature requests for priority. In the mean time, the suggestions people have made are to help you achieve a way of using GnuCash to achieve your ends using the existing features of GnuCash, until such time as GnuCash can be improved. That is a prime function of the forum. It may be that a simple change in the code to allow a zero interest rate in the current loan assistant is all that is required. Even small changes take some time however as the GnuCash code is complex and changes introduced in one area can result in unexpected results and problems in other areas of the code. David Cousens On Thu, 2018-12-13 at 05:09 +0330, Hamidreza Jafari wrote: > On چهارشنبه ۱۲ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۱۷:۳۱:۲۱ (+0330) Christopher Lam wrote: > Many on the list are mentioning that the scenario is possible but simply not > provisioned in the part that does it automatically which here it is the > calculator. The stress so far evident in discussions causes one to question > if > this was even originally intended, that is manual operation. If so that has > to > change. I am not currently in need of such feature but a high view will > require that work that can be automated, should be automated. > > About improving GnuCash, I would rather finish the translation sooner but > redesign and extension is possible when practical usage gets momentum. > > Hamid > > > Hi > > I am not an original developer on this loan assistant. > > However I think that the original loan druid was designed to > > calculate/estimate the loan repayment amounts, assuming a conventional > > loan, with a non-zero interest rate. > > If the interest rate was zero, there would be little need for a loan druid. > > e.g. original loan = $1,000 and 20 repayments of $50 each... A simple > > calculator would do the trick. > > I do not think there has ever been a policy against having a zero-rated > > loan... but I think that the loan module has not been properly tested with > > such figures. So, I am not entirely sure that a "simple refactoring" is a > > good description of the process; it would require a complete review of the > > loan assistant, and more testing of code to handle zero-interest loans, to > > ensure crashes such as division-by-zero do not occur. > > There is very little time developer CPU cycles available for such work; if > > you are able to assist in reviewing code, enabling and testing, you are > > very welcome on board. > > So I think, at least, the "Loan Repayment Calculator" message "The interest > > rate cannot be zero" should
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
On چهارشنبه ۱۲ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۱۷:۳۱:۲۱ (+0330) Christopher Lam wrote: Many on the list are mentioning that the scenario is possible but simply not provisioned in the part that does it automatically which here it is the calculator. The stress so far evident in discussions causes one to question if this was even originally intended, that is manual operation. If so that has to change. I am not currently in need of such feature but a high view will require that work that can be automated, should be automated. About improving GnuCash, I would rather finish the translation sooner but redesign and extension is possible when practical usage gets momentum. Hamid > Hi > I am not an original developer on this loan assistant. > However I think that the original loan druid was designed to > calculate/estimate the loan repayment amounts, assuming a conventional > loan, with a non-zero interest rate. > If the interest rate was zero, there would be little need for a loan druid. > e.g. original loan = $1,000 and 20 repayments of $50 each... A simple > calculator would do the trick. > I do not think there has ever been a policy against having a zero-rated > loan... but I think that the loan module has not been properly tested with > such figures. So, I am not entirely sure that a "simple refactoring" is a > good description of the process; it would require a complete review of the > loan assistant, and more testing of code to handle zero-interest loans, to > ensure crashes such as division-by-zero do not occur. > There is very little time developer CPU cycles available for such work; if > you are able to assist in reviewing code, enabling and testing, you are > very welcome on board. > So I think, at least, the "Loan Repayment Calculator" message "The interest > rate cannot be zero" should really be "The loan calculator does not handle > zero interest rates." > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 at 20:05, Hamidreza Jafari > > wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features, > > that's > > why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I > > decided > > to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed in > > specific > > doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while: > > > > Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - > > 100. > > The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans. > > > > Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra > > effort it > > is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical views on > > the > > subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as Sharia) > > takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are some > > issues > > in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of limited capacity > > of > > everyday person. > > > > It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that have > > been > > designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the moral > > side > > by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to this level > > of > > goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in such a way > > that > > extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do the job. > > > > What's the situation? > > > > Hamid > > > > > > ___ > > gnucash-devel mailing list > > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org > > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
On 12/11/2018 11:07 PM, Hamidreza Jafari wrote: I didn't follow Michael D Novack. Though I can clarify on some issues that were mentioned. Hamid Sorry about that. I was not expecting many on this list to understand, but there can be MORE differences between Western Civ "interest" loans and no interest loans of various traditional societies. Interest loans are (almost always) fully defined as to the amount to be paid back. No interest loans are not necessarily so defined, may resemble "partnership investments". An "iron sheep" contract was a very unfair arrangement (unfair to the borrower) which was definite on the downside but profit shared on the up side. Forbidden by Jewish law and the "sheep" because originally poor shepherds needing to borrow to get sheep to manage. Please understand, the no interest loans of traditional societies do NOT necessarily mean that the lender could not make a profit on the loan. Just that this could not be from INTEREST, had to be conditional on outcome, and the borrower not assuming all of the risk << "iron sheep" >> Accounting for CONDITIONAL items can be non-trivial. Let me give an example from my days. I went to college partially with NDF loans. These were CONDITIONAL loans. They had an interest rate but interest was not charged if in school or if teaching school (after graduation) and each year teaching forgave a percentage of the loan. Michael D Novack ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Hi I am not an original developer on this loan assistant. However I think that the original loan druid was designed to calculate/estimate the loan repayment amounts, assuming a conventional loan, with a non-zero interest rate. If the interest rate was zero, there would be little need for a loan druid. e.g. original loan = $1,000 and 20 repayments of $50 each... A simple calculator would do the trick. I do not think there has ever been a policy against having a zero-rated loan... but I think that the loan module has not been properly tested with such figures. So, I am not entirely sure that a "simple refactoring" is a good description of the process; it would require a complete review of the loan assistant, and more testing of code to handle zero-interest loans, to ensure crashes such as division-by-zero do not occur. There is very little time developer CPU cycles available for such work; if you are able to assist in reviewing code, enabling and testing, you are very welcome on board. So I think, at least, the "Loan Repayment Calculator" message "The interest rate cannot be zero" should really be "The loan calculator does not handle zero interest rates." On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 at 20:05, Hamidreza Jafari wrote: > Hello, > > I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features, > that's > why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I > decided > to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed in > specific > doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while: > > Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - > 100. > The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans. > > Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra > effort it > is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical views on > the > subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as Sharia) > takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are some > issues > in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of limited capacity > of > everyday person. > > It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that have > been > designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the moral > side > by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to this level > of > goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in such a way > that > extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do the job. > > What's the situation? > > Hamid > > > ___ > gnucash-devel mailing list > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel > ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Am 11.12.18 um 22:44 schrieb John Ralls: >> On Dec 11, 2018, at 1:11 PM, Frank H. Ellenberger >> wrote: >> >> Hello Michael, >> I would go further than Hamid. If you see the deposit facility rate at >> https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/key_ecb_interest_rates/html/index.en.html >> >> it is time to drop the restriction and allow zero and negative interest >> rates. > > Those rates are for banks borrowing from the ECB. They're not available to > anyone likely to be using GnuCash. > > Regards, > John Ralls > Most variable interest rates in Europa have the form (ECB deposit interest rate) + x . Currently you are right about borrowing, but not for deposits: https://ssl.skatbank.de/sites/default/files/Konditionen_und_Preisverzeichnis.pdf was the first, but others followed. If you deposit there over 250 000 EUR, the interest rate is -0,5% p.a. ~Frank ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Hamid, I cannot comment on Michael's points; however, I think the point that others are making is that the loan assistant is meant to assist users in setting up *transactions* for an interest-bearing loan. Account setup-- including whether an account is classed as a liability-- is separate from how the transactions are handled. If you have a loan, you will put it as a liability and see it there in your chart of accounts. There is no bias against non-interest loans; there just is no reason to accommodate them in this assistant. Adding a note in the documentation-- perhaps in the wiki on the FAQ or on "Using Gnucash" pages might help others understand this. David On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 9:38, Hamidreza Jafari wrote: I didn't follow Michael D Novack. Though I can clarify on some issues that were mentioned. 1 - Translation is not complete, my usage of the app is not exhaustive to try its ins and outs. I questioned if GnuCash is built with the mindset of priming interest over non-interest. The string I mentioned has either redundant information or contradicting information. 2 - I do not intend to draw lines but rather to question the line itself. That way agreement is facilitated or disagreement shows its hidden points of conflict. 3 - If GnuCash has a part dedicated to loans, a user would be happy to have all info about his loans under a Loans section rather than keeping notes to himself in roundabout ways. Accounting is a form of bookkeeping but usage of computing machines has provided some nifty features not possible with books. I talked about extending and refactoring to provide support if missing. This is about development not usage. Hamid On چهارشنبه ۱۲ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۰:۴۱:۰۸ (+0330) Frank H. Ellenberger wrote: > Hello Michael, > > Am 11.12.18 um 16:32 schrieb Michael or Penny Novack: > > On 12/11/2018 7:05 AM, Hamidreza Jafari wrote: > >> Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - > >> 100. > >> The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans. > >> > >> What's the situation? > >> > >> Hamid > > > > Needed for more than just Islam BUT perhaps this belongs in the "user" > > discussion as maybe no programming involved. > > If one of our translators comes up with such a question, there might - > not must - something be suboptimal with our MsgIds, their documentation > or our user doocumentation. > > > You would need/use the "mortgage assistant" only for an amortizing loan > > WITH interest. Just because you might be thinking of a loan as for the > > same purpose as a mortgage (buying a house, etc.) does not make it one > > as the term is being used in gnucash. > > I would go further than Hamid. If you see the deposit facility rate at > https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/key_ecb_interest_r > ates/html/index.en.html > > it is time to drop the restriction and allow zero and negative interest > rates. > > > Put your question on the other list as a "how do I do in gnucash" > > spelling out ALL of the conditions of this loan. I'm not a Muslim but do > > have an understanding of some of the forms of "no interest" loans and so > > understand that while no interest MAY be conditions of "profit sharing" > > if the property involved is sold before the loan paid off. Or in the > > condition of losses if not forbidden as "iron sheep" contracts << that's > > just to show you I do know something about traditional societies >> > > > > Michael D Novack > > ~Frank > > ___ > gnucash-devel mailing list > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
I didn't follow Michael D Novack. Though I can clarify on some issues that were mentioned. 1 - Translation is not complete, my usage of the app is not exhaustive to try its ins and outs. I questioned if GnuCash is built with the mindset of priming interest over non-interest. The string I mentioned has either redundant information or contradicting information. 2 - I do not intend to draw lines but rather to question the line itself. That way agreement is facilitated or disagreement shows its hidden points of conflict. 3 - If GnuCash has a part dedicated to loans, a user would be happy to have all info about his loans under a Loans section rather than keeping notes to himself in roundabout ways. Accounting is a form of bookkeeping but usage of computing machines has provided some nifty features not possible with books. I talked about extending and refactoring to provide support if missing. This is about development not usage. Hamid On چهارشنبه ۱۲ دسامبر ۲۰۱۸ ۰:۴۱:۰۸ (+0330) Frank H. Ellenberger wrote: > Hello Michael, > > Am 11.12.18 um 16:32 schrieb Michael or Penny Novack: > > On 12/11/2018 7:05 AM, Hamidreza Jafari wrote: > >> Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - > >> 100. > >> The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans. > >> > >> What's the situation? > >> > >> Hamid > > > > Needed for more than just Islam BUT perhaps this belongs in the "user" > > discussion as maybe no programming involved. > > If one of our translators comes up with such a question, there might - > not must - something be suboptimal with our MsgIds, their documentation > or our user doocumentation. > > > You would need/use the "mortgage assistant" only for an amortizing loan > > WITH interest. Just because you might be thinking of a loan as for the > > same purpose as a mortgage (buying a house, etc.) does not make it one > > as the term is being used in gnucash. > > I would go further than Hamid. If you see the deposit facility rate at > https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/key_ecb_interest_r > ates/html/index.en.html > > it is time to drop the restriction and allow zero and negative interest > rates. > > > Put your question on the other list as a "how do I do in gnucash" > > spelling out ALL of the conditions of this loan. I'm not a Muslim but do > > have an understanding of some of the forms of "no interest" loans and so > > understand that while no interest MAY be conditions of "profit sharing" > > if the property involved is sold before the loan paid off. Or in the > > condition of losses if not forbidden as "iron sheep" contracts << that's > > just to show you I do know something about traditional societies >> > > > > Michael D Novack > > ~Frank > > ___ > gnucash-devel mailing list > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
> On Dec 11, 2018, at 1:11 PM, Frank H. Ellenberger > wrote: > > Hello Michael, > I would go further than Hamid. If you see the deposit facility rate at > https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/key_ecb_interest_rates/html/index.en.html > > it is time to drop the restriction and allow zero and negative interest > rates. Those rates are for banks borrowing from the ECB. They're not available to anyone likely to be using GnuCash. Regards, John Ralls ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Hello Michael, Am 11.12.18 um 16:32 schrieb Michael or Penny Novack: > On 12/11/2018 7:05 AM, Hamidreza Jafari wrote: > >> >> Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - >> 100. >> The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans. > >> What's the situation? >> >> Hamid > > Needed for more than just Islam BUT perhaps this belongs in the "user" > discussion as maybe no programming involved. If one of our translators comes up with such a question, there might - not must - something be suboptimal with our MsgIds, their documentation or our user doocumentation. > You would need/use the "mortgage assistant" only for an amortizing loan > WITH interest. Just because you might be thinking of a loan as for the > same purpose as a mortgage (buying a house, etc.) does not make it one > as the term is being used in gnucash. I would go further than Hamid. If you see the deposit facility rate at https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/key_ecb_interest_rates/html/index.en.html it is time to drop the restriction and allow zero and negative interest rates. > Put your question on the other list as a "how do I do in gnucash" > spelling out ALL of the conditions of this loan. I'm not a Muslim but do > have an understanding of some of the forms of "no interest" loans and so > understand that while no interest MAY be conditions of "profit sharing" > if the property involved is sold before the loan paid off. Or in the > condition of losses if not forbidden as "iron sheep" contracts << that's > just to show you I do know something about traditional societies >> > > Michael D Novack ~Frank ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
On 12/11/2018 7:05 AM, Hamidreza Jafari wrote: Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - 100. The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans. What's the situation? Hamid Needed for more than just Islam BUT perhaps this belongs in the "user" discussion as maybe no programming involved. You would need/use the "mortgage assistant" only for an amortizing loan WITH interest. Just because you might be thinking of a loan as for the same purpose as a mortgage (buying a house, etc.) does not make it one as the term is being used in gnucash. Put your question on the other list as a "how do I do in gnucash" spelling out ALL of the conditions of this loan. I'm not a Muslim but do have an understanding of some of the forms of "no interest" loans and so understand that while no interest MAY be conditions of "profit sharing" if the property involved is sold before the loan paid off. Or in the condition of losses if not forbidden as "iron sheep" contracts << that's just to show you I do know something about traditional societies >> Michael D Novack ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Am 12/11/2018 um 8:05 PM schrieb Hamidreza Jafari: > Hello, > > I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features, that's > why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I decided > to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed in specific > doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while: > > Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - 100. > The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans. > > Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra effort > it > is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical views on > the > subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as Sharia) > takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are some > issues > in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of limited capacity of > everyday person. > > It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that have been > designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the moral side > by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to this level of > goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in such a way that > extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do the job. > > What's the situation? > > Hamid > > > ___ > gnucash-devel mailing list > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel As far as i know is the interest calculation just a Help. I am able to make a Account of type Liability for example credit to xxx, and put the sum of the credit. The same i can book repayment onto this account. If the account is empty the credit is done. No need of changes for someone that doesn't need complicated interest calculation. Martin ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: [GNC-dev] Interest
Op dinsdag 11 december 2018 13:05:02 CET schreef Hamidreza Jafari: > Hello, > > I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features, that's > why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I > decided to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed > in specific doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while: > > Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - 100. > The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans. > > Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra effort > it is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical views > on the subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as > Sharia) takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are > some issues in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of > limited capacity of everyday person. > > It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that have > been designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the > moral side by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to > this level of goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in > such a way that extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do > the job. > > What's the situation? > Well, as John pointed out you can set up an interest free loan directly as a scheduled transaction. The only difference between an ordinary scheduled transaction and what the mortgage repayment tool offers is a complex interest calculation. Other than that it will also just create a schedule of future transactions. So if there's no complicated interest calculation I would think a normal scheduled transaction can accomplish the same thing. I don't see what else you would expect as "features" of an interest free loan ? Regards, Geert ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
[GNC-dev] Interest
Hello, I use GnuCash mostly for personal finance and use its basic features, that's why I have not tried it completely with all its capabilities. When I decided to translate I had no idea I would encounter parts of it designed in specific doctrines. This is one such string that paused my for a while: Enter the annual interest rate in percent. Accepts values from 0.001 - 100. The Mortgage Assistant does not support zero-interest loans. Although it is possible to set up zero interest business using extra effort it is better that the tool can be used at a policy level. Historical views on the subject are clear. It is true that Islam (which was referred to as Sharia) takes sides about it, it is not the only one contending. There are some issues in life that are not a matter of voting simply because of limited capacity of everyday person. It is not clear to me if there are some other parts in GnuCash that have been designed in similar ideas. I would like it to be accepting of the moral side by allowing interest-free transactions (I currently suffice to this level of goodness advocacy). I hope it is designed and implemented in such a way that extension is possible if not a simple refactoring can do the job. What's the situation? Hamid ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
