Re: Re (IRC): 2.2.0 and auto-save
I'm just saying we developers have to find a decision which doesn't necessarily conform with the majority of feedback on our mailing lists. Neither we ourselves nor even the users of our mailing lists might correspond the normal user in a representative way. Before you claim to make such decisions based on what the normal user wants, then, I suppose you need to agree on how to obtain the desires of the normal user. If not through feedback on gnucash-users, then how? How will you ever know what the normal user wants, if not through some feedback mechanism? You should also define the normal user. Is it an average of feedback from users, the loudest feedback, the closest feedback (e.g. our spouses or partners), the most feedback (popularity vote), or ??? If everyone is on the same page regarding that, then you may have an easier time deciding what the direction of gnucash ought to be. Then again, this is open source. You also need to be interested in coding features in order to put forth the effort. With gratitude for your ongoing efforts, Dan W. ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Re (IRC): 2.2.0 and auto-save
Christian Stimming [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Following this way of thought I would decide for choice #1, leave as-is for 2.2.0. What do the other developers say? I like option 3. The implemented auto-save doesn't behave in the conventional way (with a separate checkpoint file); it probably should before being enabled by default. Regardless, some will still want the feature, especially since we have an alternate mechanism for creating checkpoint files that could be used in the case of an undesirable autosave. -- ...jsled http://asynchronous.org/ - a=jsled; b=asynchronous.org; echo [EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpueP0dYjdDC.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Re (IRC): 2.2.0 and auto-save
On Thu, Jul 05, 2007 at 10:44:46AM +0200, Christian Stimming wrote: 14:40:57 warlord Hmm, are we going to have a 2.1.6? 16:21:25 andi5 warlord: wrt 2.1.6, if we plan not to revert the auto-save feature, we might want to have another test version iff christian wants to extend / improve it if we just change the default to disabled auto-save, then i am fine with no 2.1.6 as well... 16:21:52 warlord andi5: ok I don't want to extend/improve the auto-save feature before 2.2.0 (not enough time available). For that reason I don't think we need another 2.1.6 but should plan for 2.2.0 on the weekend July 15th, http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Release_Schedule It seems to me the perfect solution would be to have a separate save-to-checkpoint function as opposed to the save-to-working-file, with extra auto-restore questions at startup, as outlined here by Eric Ladner http://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2007-July/020890.html This would require major changes in our saving infrastructure, which I'm not going to do in the upcoming 1-3 months. As an aside, I'd like to point out that the current auto-save behaviour represents exactly how gnucash would behave with a database-backend currently, as explained here correctly http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2007-07-04.html#T15:30:38 But for 2.2.0 we have the following choices: #1: Auto-save-datafile is enabled by default, just with a different default value (5 minutes? 10 Minutes?), and the explanation dialog box pops up upon the very first auto-save activation. Users would have to into the preferences to disable this feature. #2: Auto-save-datafile will be enabled once, then on the explanation dialog box the user is asked whether she/he wants to have this enabled: auto-save ... blabla ... Do you want to enable or disable this? [Enable] [Disable] #3: Auto-save is disabled by default and users have to find out the Option by themselves to enable it. No extra dialog explanation will be shown for this option, neither after startup nor at activation time or whatever. Using this feature is therefore restricted to those users who happen to stumble upon this during browsing through the preferences. The feedback from gnucash-user clearly points toward #3. However, my main intention was to implement a feature that helps the normal user to decrease the negative outcome of when an error occurs. This boils down to the question what behaviour the normal user actually expects from gnucash. As a programmer I know that my way of understanding gnucash is probably rather different from what the normal user does. However, I'm not so sure whether the gnucash-user feedback talks more about the normal user expectation than what I would think of, because those subscribers are power-users just as we are. (For example, my wife says the new auto-save behaviour is just fine and understandable, whereas the abovementioned restore-checkpoint-at-startup behaviour would be utterly confusing for her - she never really understands what she is supposed to answer when a program asks at startup about restoring whatever thingy is also there. I'm just saying we developers have to find a decision which doesn't necessarily conform with the majority of feedback on our mailing lists. Neither we ourselves nor even the users of our mailing lists might correspond the normal user in a representative way. Decisions, decisions... Following this way of thought I would decide for choice #1, leave as-is for 2.2.0. What do the other developers say? For better or for worse, we've conditioned users (me included) to expect that they can 1) open GnuCash, 2) make undesired changes for the purposes of exploration or experimentation, 3) close GnuCash w/o saving, and 4) re-open GnuCash with their data in exactly the state they last saved it. Purely as a matter of politeness, I think it would be rude to change this behavior without any user action. Given the current difficulty of implementing a autosave-to-alternate-file behavior, I'd suggest the following: #4) (a refinement of #2) Leave auto-save enabled by default, but change the behavior slightly: - When autosave triggers prompt the user with: Auto-save Do you want to auto-save your data file? [some explanation of the implications;] [explanation that this can be customized in Preferences] [Yes, just this once] [Yes, always] [No, not right now *] [No, never] === * default Until either (a) the user sets something in the preferences, or (b) they choose one of the always/never options, then this dialog should continue to appear _every_ time the auto-save triggers. This means: - The original behavior is one click away (No, never). - The fully automated auto-save behavior is one click away (Yes, always). - It leaves the user the option of full control. (with or
Re: Re (IRC): 2.2.0 and auto-save
Chris Shoemaker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [snip] Following this way of thought I would decide for choice #1, leave as-is for 2.2.0. What do the other developers say? For better or for worse, we've conditioned users (me included) to expect that they can 1) open GnuCash, 2) make undesired changes for the purposes of exploration or experimentation, 3) close GnuCash w/o saving, and 4) re-open GnuCash with their data in exactly the state they last saved it. * me too * :( Purely as a matter of politeness, I think it would be rude to change this behavior without any user action. Agreed. Given the current difficulty of implementing a autosave-to-alternate-file behavior, I'd suggest the following: #4) (a refinement of #2) Leave auto-save enabled by default, but change the behavior slightly: - When autosave triggers prompt the user with: Auto-save Do you want to auto-save your data file? [some explanation of the implications;] [explanation that this can be customized in Preferences] [Yes, just this once] [Yes, always] [No, not right now *] [No, never] === * default Until either (a) the user sets something in the preferences, or (b) they choose one of the always/never options, then this dialog should continue to appear _every_ time the auto-save triggers. This means: - The original behavior is one click away (No, never). - The fully automated auto-save behavior is one click away (Yes, always). - It leaves the user the option of full control. (with or w/o further dialog) - Even users that don't want autosave may appreciate the reminder to save manually, (or they can avoid it, if not). - It allows the use of the autosave feature even in cases where the user wants to make unsaved changes. In any case, I am against changing the default setting in a way that requires long-time users to set a Preference in order to restore the behavior they've become used to, and at least some find useful. OTOH, I think auto-save is a very compelling feature we should make very easy to enable. So, I'm fine with #2, #3, or #4, but not with #1. I like this option #4, too. I'm also with Chris here with #2, #3, or #4 but not #1. I think I'd prefer #4, then #3, then #2. And, thanks for the nice feature, Christian. :) DEFINITELY agreed! Thank you, Christian! -chris -derek -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH [EMAIL PROTECTED]PGP key available ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Re (IRC): 2.2.0 and auto-save
Speaking strictly as a user of GnuCash, I like the current auto-save as implemented i.e. save-to-working-file; thanks, Christian! I've never played around with a GnuCash file, decided I didn't like the changes and closed without saving (but strangely enough, I do that with other programs), but that's just me. I guess if I were intending to play with my data file, I would either disable the auto-save or work on a backup copy of the file (the latter probably the safer choice). On the other hand, I can see the benefits of a save-to-checkpoint-file. But, if I could put in my 2 cents, whatever the developers decide, please: 1) inform the user of any change in behaviour that could adversely affect their data file (similar to Chris Shoemaker's option #4) , and 2) decide which method to use (save-to-working-file or save-to-checkpoint-file) and stick with it. Nothing annoys me more than a too-frequently-changing data file behaviour. If the developers are uncertain as to which method will ultimately become permanent, I would say disable the feature for 2.2.0 John New On July 5, 2007 04:44 am, Christian Stimming wrote: 14:40:57 warlord Hmm, are we going to have a 2.1.6? 16:21:25 andi5 warlord: wrt 2.1.6, if we plan not to revert the auto-save feature, we might want to have another test version iff christian wants to extend / improve it if we just change the default to disabled auto-save, then i am fine with no 2.1.6 as well... 16:21:52 warlord andi5: ok I don't want to extend/improve the auto-save feature before 2.2.0 (not enough time available). For that reason I don't think we need another 2.1.6 but should plan for 2.2.0 on the weekend July 15th, http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Release_Schedule It seems to me the perfect solution would be to have a separate save-to-checkpoint function as opposed to the save-to-working-file, with extra auto-restore questions at startup, as outlined here by Eric Ladner http://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2007-July/020890.html This would require major changes in our saving infrastructure, which I'm not going to do in the upcoming 1-3 months. As an aside, I'd like to point out that the current auto-save behaviour represents exactly how gnucash would behave with a database-backend currently, as explained here correctly http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2007-07-04.html#T15:30:38 But for 2.2.0 we have the following choices: #1: Auto-save-datafile is enabled by default, just with a different default value (5 minutes? 10 Minutes?), and the explanation dialog box pops up upon the very first auto-save activation. Users would have to into the preferences to disable this feature. #2: Auto-save-datafile will be enabled once, then on the explanation dialog box the user is asked whether she/he wants to have this enabled: auto-save ... blabla ... Do you want to enable or disable this? [Enable] [Disable] #3: Auto-save is disabled by default and users have to find out the Option by themselves to enable it. No extra dialog explanation will be shown for this option, neither after startup nor at activation time or whatever. Using this feature is therefore restricted to those users who happen to stumble upon this during browsing through the preferences. The feedback from gnucash-user clearly points toward #3. However, my main intention was to implement a feature that helps the normal user to decrease the negative outcome of when an error occurs. This boils down to the question what behaviour the normal user actually expects from gnucash. As a programmer I know that my way of understanding gnucash is probably rather different from what the normal user does. However, I'm not so sure whether the gnucash-user feedback talks more about the normal user expectation than what I would think of, because those subscribers are power-users just as we are. (For example, my wife says the new auto-save behaviour is just fine and understandable, whereas the abovementioned restore-checkpoint-at-startup behaviour would be utterly confusing for her - she never really understands what she is supposed to answer when a program asks at startup about restoring whatever thingy is also there. I'm just saying we developers have to find a decision which doesn't necessarily conform with the majority of feedback on our mailing lists. Neither we ourselves nor even the users of our mailing lists might correspond the normal user in a representative way. Decisions, decisions... Following this way of thought I would decide for choice #1, leave as-is for 2.2.0. What do the other developers say? Christian ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Re (IRC): 2.2.0 and auto-save
Am Donnerstag, 5. Juli 2007 16:56 schrieb Derek Atkins: Following this way of thought I would decide for choice #1, leave as-is for 2.2.0. What do the other developers say? For better or for worse, we've conditioned users (me included) to expect that they can 1) open GnuCash, 2) make undesired changes for the purposes of exploration or experimentation, 3) close GnuCash w/o saving, and 4) re-open GnuCash with their data in exactly the state they last saved it. * me too * :( Not me, though. But interesting - I haven't thought about users who got accustomed to this particular behaviour. You're all right, this must not be changed silently. I was only thinking about new users. Auto-save Do you want to auto-save your data file? [some explanation of the implications;] [explanation that this can be customized in Preferences] [Yes, just this once] [Yes, always] [No, not right now *] [No, never] === * default So, I'm fine with #2, #3, or #4, but not with #1. I like this option #4, too. I'm also with Chris here with #2, #3, or #4 but not #1. I think I'd prefer #4, then #3, then #2. Okay, so we're going for this dialog with choices. Are you up for doing this? I don't know off-hand how to implement the bunch of buttons in gtk the easiest... Christian ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
