Re: Unintended consequences / retrograde behaviour re 2.6.16 fix of Bug 603379 - Prevent changing some Account Options if it has transactions.
Wm via gnucash-develwrites: >> IMNSHO, the main different between the various sub-types is the >> displayed header in the register. E.g. Cash is Spend and Receive, >> whereas Bank is Deposit and Withdrawl, Credit Card is Charge and >> Payment, etc. The underlying functionality is the same otherwise, but I >> think it's still useful to users, especially new users, to have the >> commonplace headings. > > Hmmmn, somewhere along the way gnc made commonplace headings (which I > agree are useful labels versus + and - or Dr and Cr) immutable. I'm not sure I understand your statement here: "somewhere along the way gnc made commonplace headings immutable."? What does this mean? > I think when it is put that way most people will see the new found > immutability as a problem not to be solved. Huh? How do you come to this conclusion? -derek -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH warl...@mit.eduPGP key available ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Unintended consequences / retrograde behaviour re 2.6.16 fix of Bug 603379 - Prevent changing some Account Options if it has transactions.
On 08/05/2017 16:30, Derek Atkins wrote: > "Frank H. Ellenberger"writes: > >> Hi, >> >> Am 03.05.2017 um 02:11 schrieb Wm via gnucash-devel: >> 8X--- >>> I'll stipulate that Stock and Mutual Fund behave exactly the same, as do >>> Bank and Cash, so those four should be collapsed into two. >> >> In theory the is a difference, but currently not implemented in GnuCash >> between Bank and Cash: > > IMNSHO, the main different between the various sub-types is the > displayed header in the register. E.g. Cash is Spend and Receive, > whereas Bank is Deposit and Withdrawl, Credit Card is Charge and > Payment, etc. The underlying functionality is the same otherwise, but I > think it's still useful to users, especially new users, to have the > commonplace headings. Hmmmn, somewhere along the way gnc made commonplace headings (which I agree are useful labels versus + and - or Dr and Cr) immutable. I think when it is put that way most people will see the new found immutability as a problem not to be solved. ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Unintended consequences / retrograde behaviour re 2.6.16 fix of Bug 603379 - Prevent changing some Account Options if it has transactions.
"Frank H. Ellenberger"writes: > Hi, > > Am 03.05.2017 um 02:11 schrieb Wm via gnucash-devel: > 8X--- >> I'll stipulate that Stock and Mutual Fund behave exactly the same, as do >> Bank and Cash, so those four should be collapsed into two. > > In theory the is a difference, but currently not implemented in GnuCash > between Bank and Cash: IMNSHO, the main different between the various sub-types is the displayed header in the register. E.g. Cash is Spend and Receive, whereas Bank is Deposit and Withdrawl, Credit Card is Charge and Payment, etc. The underlying functionality is the same otherwise, but I think it's still useful to users, especially new users, to have the commonplace headings. -derek -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH warl...@mit.eduPGP key available ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Unintended consequences / retrograde behaviour re 2.6.16 fix of Bug 603379 - Prevent changing some Account Options if it has transactions.
On 07/05/2017 15:30, Frank H. Ellenberger wrote: > Hi, [JohnR not Wm said] > Am 03.05.2017 um 02:11 schrieb Wm via gnucash-devel: > 8X--- >> I'll stipulate that Stock and Mutual Fund behave exactly the same, as do >> Bank and Cash, so those four should be collapsed into two. > > In theory the is a difference, but currently not implemented in GnuCash > between Bank and Cash: > > Cash must never be below zero. That is not an issue in accounting. It is an issue in banking, it is an issue in business and personal finance. But in accounting? Nope. Accounting does not care. I've also just checked and my actual gnc Cash account has sometimes gone into the apparent red when I've recorded transactions in a natural order. e.g. out for a meal, I pay, people give me the money. are you really saying in accounting a Cash account must never be below zero? It happens all the time in real life ... and accounts should reflect not dictate, after all. It is possible people use these differently[1], but I think if gnc prevented the entry above it would upset people. [1] I call what is in the pockets of my clothing a Cash account and don't think it needs a new name, it is the cash I have on me. IMO the Asset and Liability types are over divided. Unless they are doing something useful they should be consolidated longer term. Also it is silly in modern banking, my current account provider offers me a free overdraft. If I use that ofverdraft facility does my account change from a Cash account to a Bank account in gnc? No. The definition is artificial. In summary I disagree strongly with Frank and say differences between Cash and Bank should be removed because they do not reflect natural accounting. I say further that issues of very personal finance like "your cash cannot go below zero" are issues that gnc passed by when it stopped being a personal finance nanny copy of another piece of software. -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Unintended consequences / retrograde behaviour re 2.6.16 fix of Bug 603379 - Prevent changing some Account Options if it has transactions.
Hi, Am 03.05.2017 um 02:11 schrieb Wm via gnucash-devel: 8X--- > I'll stipulate that Stock and Mutual Fund behave exactly the same, as do > Bank and Cash, so those four should be collapsed into two. In theory the is a difference, but currently not implemented in GnuCash between Bank and Cash: Cash must never be below zero. ~Frank ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Unintended consequences / retrograde behaviour re 2.6.16 fix of Bug 603379 - Prevent changing some Account Options if it has transactions.
I have been watching this and can look at it again when a clear outcome of this discussion is made and hopefully the bug can be updated with what is required. Bob On 3 May 2017 at 11:44, Geert Janssenswrote: > On woensdag 3 mei 2017 10:02:44 CEST Geert Janssens wrote: > > >> On May 2, 2017, at 5:11 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel > > >> wrote: > > > Derek, Geert, and I discussion about this on IRC the other day and both > > > disagree with me. I think Geert is looking into how to restore the > > > account type selector and block type changes between STOCK/FUND and > > > everything else. > > > > I believe you are correct accounts are immutable in formal accounting. In > > formal accounting transactions are immutable as well. Yet we allow users > to > > change transactions if they choose not to adhere to formal accounting > rules. > > In that sense I believe we can also allow users to do the same with > > accounts if they choose to do so, at least within reasonable limits. > > These limits are: > > - the commodity shouldn't be changed. It wouldn't make sense that an > account > > that was tracking USD suddenly starts tracking EUR. The values wouldn't > > match consistently. > > - GnuCash makes certain assumptions about Accounts Receivable and > Accounts > > Payable account types and stores more information in those internally > than > > in other account types. Changing types on these accounts would violate > > these assumptions and/or would lose the added information. To avoid these > > changing account types to/from A/R and A/P should not be allowed. > > - John also mentions the Trading account type. While it's an internal use > > type as well I don't know much about the assumptions gnucash makes on > these > > account types nor whether changing an account to/from such a type would > > affect gnucash' proper functioning or not. Nor can I imagine a use case > > where it would make sense to change to/from a trading account. They are > > generated automatically when needed. > > Oh, and I meant to add I'm not working on this issue (yet). As Robert > Fewell > is the original author of the previous patch I was kind of hoping he would > pick it up :) > > If not, I will handle it. > > Regards, > > Geert > ___ > gnucash-devel mailing list > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel > ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Unintended consequences / retrograde behaviour re 2.6.16 fix of Bug 603379 - Prevent changing some Account Options if it has transactions.
On woensdag 3 mei 2017 10:02:44 CEST Geert Janssens wrote: > >> On May 2, 2017, at 5:11 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel > >>wrote: > > Derek, Geert, and I discussion about this on IRC the other day and both > > disagree with me. I think Geert is looking into how to restore the > > account type selector and block type changes between STOCK/FUND and > > everything else. > > I believe you are correct accounts are immutable in formal accounting. In > formal accounting transactions are immutable as well. Yet we allow users to > change transactions if they choose not to adhere to formal accounting rules. > In that sense I believe we can also allow users to do the same with > accounts if they choose to do so, at least within reasonable limits. > These limits are: > - the commodity shouldn't be changed. It wouldn't make sense that an account > that was tracking USD suddenly starts tracking EUR. The values wouldn't > match consistently. > - GnuCash makes certain assumptions about Accounts Receivable and Accounts > Payable account types and stores more information in those internally than > in other account types. Changing types on these accounts would violate > these assumptions and/or would lose the added information. To avoid these > changing account types to/from A/R and A/P should not be allowed. > - John also mentions the Trading account type. While it's an internal use > type as well I don't know much about the assumptions gnucash makes on these > account types nor whether changing an account to/from such a type would > affect gnucash' proper functioning or not. Nor can I imagine a use case > where it would make sense to change to/from a trading account. They are > generated automatically when needed. Oh, and I meant to add I'm not working on this issue (yet). As Robert Fewell is the original author of the previous patch I was kind of hoping he would pick it up :) If not, I will handle it. Regards, Geert ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Unintended consequences / retrograde behaviour re 2.6.16 fix of Bug 603379 - Prevent changing some Account Options if it has transactions.
>> On May 2, 2017, at 5:11 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel >>wrote: >> >> On 24/04/2017 23:31, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: >> >> [apparent ff to self] >> >> I have a message from JohnR that I think may have been intended for this >> list. >> >> It makes sense to me for other people to see it and hear him before I >> represent my case on immutability. >> >> === >> >> I think account types *are* immutable in formal accounting, but I'm open >> to changing my mind if you can suggest some use-cases where it's allowed. >> >> To ensure that we're talking about the same thing, the account types >> are: Asset, with subclasses Bank, Stock, Mutual Fund, and Cash; >> Liability, with subclass Credit Card; Equity, with subclasses Income and >> Expense; and special types that are for GnuCash's internal use Payable, >> Receivable, and Trading. There are some others declared in the code that >> aren't exposed anywhere so they don't count. >> >> I'll stipulate that Stock and Mutual Fund behave exactly the same, as do >> Bank and Cash, so those four should be collapsed into two. > > I had a network issue posting to the list (comcast timed out trying to > connect to code.gnucash.org when delivering mail for gnucash-devel while > working just fine with gnucash-user) when I sent that to you and gave up > after several retries. > > Derek, Geert, and I discussion about this on IRC the other day and both > disagree with me. I think Geert is looking into how to restore the > account type selector and block type changes between STOCK/FUND and > everything else. I believe you are correct accounts are immutable in formal accounting. In formal accounting transactions are immutable as well. Yet we allow users to change transactions if they choose not to adhere to formal accounting rules. In that sense I believe we can also allow users to do the same with accounts if they choose to do so, at least within reasonable limits. These limits are: - the commodity shouldn't be changed. It wouldn't make sense that an account that was tracking USD suddenly starts tracking EUR. The values wouldn't match consistently. - GnuCash makes certain assumptions about Accounts Receivable and Accounts Payable account types and stores more information in those internally than in other account types. Changing types on these accounts would violate these assumptions and/or would lose the added information. To avoid these changing account types to/from A/R and A/P should not be allowed. - John also mentions the Trading account type. While it's an internal use type as well I don't know much about the assumptions gnucash makes on these account types nor whether changing an account to/from such a type would affect gnucash' proper functioning or not. Nor can I imagine a use case where it would make sense to change to/from a trading account. They are generated automatically when needed. Regards, Geert ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Unintended consequences / retrograde behaviour re 2.6.16 fix of Bug 603379 - Prevent changing some Account Options if it has transactions.
Not sure how much this adds to the discussion, but a long time ago, as a user new to job market and accounting in general, I was expensing my pension contributions. As a salaried employee, and as a new contractor, I was categorizing them as Expenses:Pension Now I know these belong in the assets column. It was a quick job to reparent the Retirement account from Expenses to Assets. Agree with Wm if this is disabled then the gnucash beautiful ability to grow into our mental model will be lost. Perhaps we just need to ensure the commodities are immutable, whereas account type can change... as long as they're not stock/fund/business accounts. On 3 May 2017 at 08:11, Wm via gnucash-develwrote: > On 24/04/2017 23:31, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: > > [apparent ff to self] > > I have a message from JohnR that I think may have been intended for this > list. > > It makes sense to me for other people to see it and hear him before I > represent my case on immutability. > > === > > I think account types *are* immutable in formal accounting, but I'm open > to changing my mind if you can suggest some use-cases where it's allowed. > > To ensure that we're talking about the same thing, the account types > are: Asset, with subclasses Bank, Stock, Mutual Fund, and Cash; > Liability, with subclass Credit Card; Equity, with subclasses Income and > Expense; and special types that are for GnuCash's internal use Payable, > Receivable, and Trading. There are some others declared in the code that > aren't exposed anywhere so they don't count. > > I'll stipulate that Stock and Mutual Fund behave exactly the same, as do > Bank and Cash, so those four should be collapsed into two. > > Regards, > John Ralls > > ___ > gnucash-devel mailing list > gnucash-devel@gnucash.org > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel > ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Unintended consequences / retrograde behaviour re 2.6.16 fix of Bug 603379 - Prevent changing some Account Options if it has transactions.
And it bounced again, so trying again with a different smtp server. Regards, John Ralls > On May 2, 2017, at 6:30 PM, John Rallswrote: > > >> On May 2, 2017, at 5:11 PM, Wm via gnucash-devel >> wrote: >> >> On 24/04/2017 23:31, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: >> >> [apparent ff to self] >> >> I have a message from JohnR that I think may have been intended for this >> list. >> >> It makes sense to me for other people to see it and hear him before I >> represent my case on immutability. >> >> === >> >> I think account types *are* immutable in formal accounting, but I'm open >> to changing my mind if you can suggest some use-cases where it's allowed. >> >> To ensure that we're talking about the same thing, the account types >> are: Asset, with subclasses Bank, Stock, Mutual Fund, and Cash; >> Liability, with subclass Credit Card; Equity, with subclasses Income and >> Expense; and special types that are for GnuCash's internal use Payable, >> Receivable, and Trading. There are some others declared in the code that >> aren't exposed anywhere so they don't count. >> >> I'll stipulate that Stock and Mutual Fund behave exactly the same, as do >> Bank and Cash, so those four should be collapsed into two. >> > > I had a network issue posting to the list (comcast timed out trying to > connect to code.gnucash.org when delivering mail for gnucash-devel while > working just fine with gnucash-user) when I sent that to you and gave up > after several retries. > > Derek, Geert, and I discussion about this on IRC the other day and both > disagree with me. I think Geert is looking into how to restore the account > type selector and block type changes between STOCK/FUND and everything else. > > Regards, > John Ralls > ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Unintended consequences / retrograde behaviour re 2.6.16 fix of Bug 603379 - Prevent changing some Account Options if it has transactions.
On 24/04/2017 23:31, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: [apparent ff to self] I have a message from JohnR that I think may have been intended for this list. It makes sense to me for other people to see it and hear him before I represent my case on immutability. === I think account types *are* immutable in formal accounting, but I'm open to changing my mind if you can suggest some use-cases where it's allowed. To ensure that we're talking about the same thing, the account types are: Asset, with subclasses Bank, Stock, Mutual Fund, and Cash; Liability, with subclass Credit Card; Equity, with subclasses Income and Expense; and special types that are for GnuCash's internal use Payable, Receivable, and Trading. There are some others declared in the code that aren't exposed anywhere so they don't count. I'll stipulate that Stock and Mutual Fund behave exactly the same, as do Bank and Cash, so those four should be collapsed into two. Regards, John Ralls ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel
Re: Unintended consequences / retrograde behaviour re 2.6.16 fix of Bug 603379 - Prevent changing some Account Options if it has transactions.
On 24/04/2017 23:31, Wm via gnucash-devel wrote: [ff own post] > I have long considered it a very-good-thing that gnc allowed accounts to > be moved between formal accounting objects (assets, liabilities, equity, > income, expenses) so long as the plus and minus signs underneath worked. > > It looks like fixing 603379 has involved taking much of this freedom > away, I could understand if some "do you really know what you are > doing?" interference was added but do not like this introduction of > nanny at all and I'm not sure if the limit was intentional or > consequential. More below. > > The good news for me is that I have kept a working copy of 2.6.15 which > isn't shackled so I'm ok until the next significant db change. OK, 2.6.16 has definitely gone too far with immutability. Consider this: Assets (type Asset) p2p lending (type Asset) bids (type Asset) cash (type Asset) [1] loans (type Asset) [1] 2.6.16 won't allow me to change Assets:p2p lending:cash to type Bank because it contains transactions. THIS IS WRONG It could be argued that giving Assets insignificant meaning (Bank vs Cash) was a bad move in the first place, but that decision was taken a while back. To say that a sub Asset can't be called Bank because its parent is an Asset is fucking with sensibility ... I think it also means that a whole lot of the examples in the tutorials won't work any more :) Undo the immutability change ASAP, please! -- Wm ___ gnucash-devel mailing list gnucash-devel@gnucash.org https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-devel