Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds

[Christopher Lam]

Oops forward to user list.

On Fri, 7 July 2023, 12:24 pm AC,  wrote:

> On 2023-07-06 20:46, Christopher Lam wrote:
> > On Fri, 7 July 2023, 11:31 am AC,  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I'm able to log into the new broker's website and see the entire history
> >> of each fund since I first purchased shares even though I've only been
> >> with the broker for a week. There just doesn't seem to be a good method
> >> for handling something like this or at least not one that is obvious.
> >>
> >
> > The obvious answer/hack is to simply reparent the stock account from
> > BrokerA:STOCK to BrokerB:STOCK.
> >
> >>
> >
> Yeah, that just makes things strange because inside the account are
> transactions with the old brokerage that would then disagree with the
> account tree.
>
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Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds

[AC]

Yes it is a total transfer as if I had a basket of widgets in my 
kitchen, picked it up and placed it in my neighbor's kitchen. The 
widgets didn't change, only the storage location.


I'm able to log into the new broker's website and see the entire history 
of each fund since I first purchased shares even though I've only been 
with the broker for a week. There just doesn't seem to be a good method 
for handling something like this or at least not one that is obvious.


Even if there's some kind of hackery/kludgery needed it would be useful 
to know how that works and maybe could be addressed as part of a future 
feature request. As I mentioned before it's academic because I don't use 
Gnucash's reports to perform any critical tasks like tax computations 
but if someone has done it in a way that worked I'd really like to know.


On 2023-07-06 19:09, R Losey wrote:

If it's truly some kind of rollover, Gnucash does allow an exchange of
shares without a price. But I don't know how you'd keep the cost basis in
the new account.


On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 5:49 PM David Carlson 
wrote:


AC,

Yes, to keep GnuCash happy you want to transfer the cost basis as well as
the securities to the new brokerage account.  By entering the transactions
as a sale at the same price that you purchased the the security and a new
purchase at that same price, you are transferring the cost basis, Since
that is not a real sale, there is no realized gain or loss to report to the
taxman until you really do sell

If you didn't transfer the cost, then GnuCash would think that the old
account still had a cost for a now non-existent asset and the new account
got the security free.  You may have to provide that same information to
your broker or custodian if they didn't get it automatically.



On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 3:31 PM AC  wrote:


Answering two at once:

Fred: No I did not work in split view. I was just working at the single
account level.

David: Are you saying I need to instruct GnuCash to treat the transfer
as a sale even though there was no sale thus no realized gains/losses
and no actual change in the cost basis?

On 2023-07-05 10:07, David Carlson wrote:

AC,

Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the
original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they
were purchased.  When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a

sale

or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted

accordingly,

even though there were no funds involved.  Of course, that exact cost

basis

needs to be added to the receiving account as if the shares were

purchased

at the original price.  This used to be described in great detail in

one

of

the help manuals, including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter

realized

gains when an actual sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see

if

those parts are still there.  I know that if you do not do those things

and

later run a trial balance or if you use the Investment Portfolio

report,

you will quickly see the error of your ways.



On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone  wrote:


On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said:


I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. The
process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of control

from

the

old to the new.

In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under

each

brokerage as such with their respective security/currency:

Investments
-Brokerage 1 (currency)
--Fund A (security A)
--Fund B (security B)
-Brokerage 2 (currency)
--Fund A (security A)
--Fund C (security C)
--Fund D (security D)

I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a
transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved the
funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look like

the

simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is

unaffected):


Investments
-Brokerage 1 (currency)
--Fund A (security A)
--Fund B (security B)
-Brokerage 3 (currency)
--Fund A (security A)
--Fund B (security B)

The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual

funds,

just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left intact with

the

funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the funds under

Brokerage

3

starting off with the incoming values.

My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within

Brokerage

1

Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 Fund A but that
didn't create the transaction I expected.

By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares

at

the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered -10
shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement from
Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance correctly

goes

to

zero.

Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a

transaction

that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and a balance of

zero.

I can manually enter the same number of 

Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds

[R Losey]

If it's truly some kind of rollover, Gnucash does allow an exchange of
shares without a price. But I don't know how you'd keep the cost basis in
the new account.


On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 5:49 PM David Carlson 
wrote:

> AC,
>
> Yes, to keep GnuCash happy you want to transfer the cost basis as well as
> the securities to the new brokerage account.  By entering the transactions
> as a sale at the same price that you purchased the the security and a new
> purchase at that same price, you are transferring the cost basis, Since
> that is not a real sale, there is no realized gain or loss to report to the
> taxman until you really do sell
>
> If you didn't transfer the cost, then GnuCash would think that the old
> account still had a cost for a now non-existent asset and the new account
> got the security free.  You may have to provide that same information to
> your broker or custodian if they didn't get it automatically.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 3:31 PM AC  wrote:
>
> > Answering two at once:
> >
> > Fred: No I did not work in split view. I was just working at the single
> > account level.
> >
> > David: Are you saying I need to instruct GnuCash to treat the transfer
> > as a sale even though there was no sale thus no realized gains/losses
> > and no actual change in the cost basis?
> >
> > On 2023-07-05 10:07, David Carlson wrote:
> > > AC,
> > >
> > > Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the
> > > original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they
> > > were purchased.  When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a
> sale
> > > or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted
> > accordingly,
> > > even though there were no funds involved.  Of course, that exact cost
> > basis
> > > needs to be added to the receiving account as if the shares were
> > purchased
> > > at the original price.  This used to be described in great detail in
> one
> > of
> > > the help manuals, including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter
> > realized
> > > gains when an actual sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see
> if
> > > those parts are still there.  I know that if you do not do those things
> > and
> > > later run a trial balance or if you use the Investment Portfolio
> report,
> > > you will quickly see the error of your ways.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone  wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said:
> > >>
> > >>> I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. The
> > >>> process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of control
> from
> > >> the
> > >>> old to the new.
> > >>>
> > >>> In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under
> each
> > >>> brokerage as such with their respective security/currency:
> > >>>
> > >>> Investments
> > >>> -Brokerage 1 (currency)
> > >>> --Fund A (security A)
> > >>> --Fund B (security B)
> > >>> -Brokerage 2 (currency)
> > >>> --Fund A (security A)
> > >>> --Fund C (security C)
> > >>> --Fund D (security D)
> > >>>
> > >>> I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a
> > >>> transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved the
> > >>> funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look like
> the
> > >>> simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is
> unaffected):
> > >>>
> > >>> Investments
> > >>> -Brokerage 1 (currency)
> > >>> --Fund A (security A)
> > >>> --Fund B (security B)
> > >>> -Brokerage 3 (currency)
> > >>> --Fund A (security A)
> > >>> --Fund B (security B)
> > >>>
> > >>> The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual
> > funds,
> > >>> just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left intact with
> the
> > >>> funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the funds under
> Brokerage
> > 3
> > >>> starting off with the incoming values.
> > >>>
> > >>> My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within
> Brokerage
> > 1
> > >>> Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 Fund A but that
> > >>> didn't create the transaction I expected.
> > >>>
> > >>> By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares
> at
> > >>> the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered -10
> > >>> shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement from
> > >>> Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance correctly
> goes
> > >> to
> > >>> zero.
> > >>>
> > >>> Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a
> transaction
> > >>> that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and a balance of
> > zero.
> > >>> I can manually enter the same number of shares in that partially
> empty
> > >>> transaction but why was my thought about the transfer incorrect?
> Should
> > >> it
> > >>> have not transferred those shares over as well?
> > >>
> > >> Did you work in split view?
> > >>
> > >> I can replicate what I think you are saying if I don't enter 

Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds

[Christopher Lam]

On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 05:16, AC  wrote:

> I just took a look at the Advanced Portfolio report to see what GC
> thought about what I had done. It does appear that the basis was lost as
> part of the transfer because for each of the funds that transferred over
> the new basis is exactly the value at the time of the transfer instead
> of the original basis.
>

I believe the advanced portfolio, portfolio, and IFRS weighted-average cost
basis reports all analyze a stock *account'*s old transactions to determine
basis.

Therefore, if you create a lateral transfer from BrokerA:STOCK to
BrokerB:STOCK, it is not surprising that the basis is lost.

The solution will be to calculate any gains manually.
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[GNC] Bar chart - no data - not enough levels

[Fred Tydeman]

I am trying to do an Asset Bar Chart like the one in the Help file for
Investments
(that one shows AMZN).

I select Reports: Assets and Liabilities: Asset Chart
For the options, I select one  Mutual Fund account (which is priced in
COP).
I take the Default for Display
In General, I alter the Start and End dates to 1/1/21 to 12/31/22
Price Source:  change to Closest to report date  (and tried others)
   If the report spans two years, what does "Report Date" mean?
The result is:  No Data.
I have tried Reports Currency of both COP and USD.
Both get No Data.

There are lots of buys and sells during that time frame.

If I do Reset Defaults in Accounts option for that report, I do get a bar
chart.
As that is doing all of the Asset accounts.

If I pick Current Assets (and Children) => No Data
If I pick Fixed Assets (and Children) => No Data
If I pick Investments (and Children) => No Data
If I pick all three of those => No Data
If I change Levels of Subaccounts from 2 to 6 => Bar Chart
If I change Levels of Subaccounts to All => better Bar Chart

It appears to me that Levels of Subaccounts is counting from the very top
(independent of where I am in the COA).  I had expected it to count from
the
Parent I had picked.  So, if I pick just one leaf account (a single
investment),
I expected a report independent of Levels of Subaccounts.

I believe a better Default value for Levels would be: All
Or, count down from the highest level picked.
That is, if I pick a level 3 account and children,
it should show levels 3 & 4 if default is 2 levels

It would be nice if the Home key took one to the top of the list of
accounts.

My COA: (the number is the level number, counting from top)
1 Assets
2  us
3Current Assets
3Fixed Assets
3Investments
4  $Taxable
5 Broker#1
6mutual fund #1  --- what I had first picked

OS:  Linux Fedora 37
GC: 4.14
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Re: [GNC] Importing data from QuickBooks Online

[Tom Olin via gnucash-user]

Thanks, Vincent!

--
Tom

“There’s nothing to prevent the federal government from creating as much money 
as it wants and paying it to somebody.” — Alan Greenspan

> On Jul 6, 2023, at 5:57 PM, Vincent Dawans  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Tom. I added the link to the FAQ  FAQ - GnuCash 
> 
> --Vincent
> 
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 9:39 AM Tom Olin  > wrote:
> I’ve posted my script here:
> 
>   https://gist.github.com/trolin522581/cd9b8d684b0f9e0c8aed8876b256e31e 
> 
> 
> I’ll leave the wiki link to someone else.
> 
> --
> Tom
> 
> For the government, which came first? (a) first $ taxed; (b) first $ 
> borrowed; (c) first $ spent. (Hint: state or federal?)
> 
>> On Jul 4, 2023, at 8:31 PM, Vincent Dawans > > wrote:
>> 
>> May I suggest also posting this in the FAQ section on the wiki, there is a 
>> section that mentions Quickbooks import.
>> See here: 
>> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_How_do_I_import_my_data_from_... 
>> 
>> 
>> You could put your file in a github gist for easy sharing. Then link from 
>> the FAQ. There is already a link there for some other script from Linux 
>> Weekly News but I haven't checked what that looks like.
>> 
>> On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 3:44 PM Tom Olin > > wrote:
>> Here’s the final version (for now) of my script. I hope someone else finds 
>> it useful.
>> 
>> Thanks to all who responded to my query with suggestions.
>> 
>> --
>> Tom
>> 
>> Federal taxes can be paid with dollars, but the dollars have to be created 
>> (spent) by the government before anyone has dollars with which to pay their 
>> taxes.
>> 
>>> On Jul 4, 2023, at 8:00 AM, Tom Olin via gnucash-user 
>>> mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Vincent,
>>> 
>>> Thanks so much for figuring this out! If you don’t mind, I’d like to give 
>>> you credit in my file.
>>> 
>>> I’m going to rerun the entire dataset as a final test. I will repost the 
>>> final version of the script here for anyone else looking to do this.
>>> 
>>> Thanks, again!
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Tom
>>> 
>>> Federal spending funds taxes. It is impossible to pay taxes until the 
>>> government has spent money into the economy.
>>> 
 On Jul 3, 2023, at 10:37 PM, Vincent Dawans >>> > wrote:
 
 Tom:
 
 I tested both files and it seems that it fails on the reconcile column for 
 2022. When I skip the reconcile column it works. 2022 has Y entries in 
 that column while 2023 doesn't, and when I replace the 2022 Y entries with 
 c it works. So it seems to be related to either the inability to import 
 reconciled flag or the flag is different, I am not sure. But that's where 
 the problem is, something to do with the Y reconcile flag.
 
 Sincerely,
 
 Vincent Dawans
 
 On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 4:41 PM Tom Olin >>>  >> wrote:
 Vincent,
 
 Good suggestions. I’ve attached 2 files, 3 transactions each, for 2022 and 
 2023. Instructions for importing them are in the documentation of the 
 script, latest version also attached.
 
 2022 still fails, 2023 still works. Create the accounts as needed; there 
 are only a few.
 
 --
 Tom
 
 Money is created when banks loan and when the federal government spends. 
 The latter increases someone’s net worth. The former does not, but the 
 interest and fees transfer net worth from the borrower to the lender.
 
> On Jul 3, 2023, at 6:44 PM, Vincent Dawans    >> wrote:
> 
> Tom:
> 
> I haven't read every single email in this thread but have this advice for 
> you to further diagnose. When I face a puzzle like this, I like to try 
> creating the simplest possible scenario in which I am still able to 
> reproduce the problem. In this case this would start by figuring out how 
> far you can pare down your 2022 csv file while still having the problem. 
> Can you pair it down to just a few transactions, like 5 or 10 max?  Can 
> you then change some of that data in that pared down file and still have 
> the problem? By simplifying you can often more easily find the source of 
> the problem and also might be able to share your csv file when it reaches 
> the point where the data in it is no longer personal.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Vincent Dawans
> 
> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 3:35 PM Tom Olin via gnucash-user 
> mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org> 
> >> 
> wrote:
> I would add that I’m more 

Re: [GNC] Importing data from QuickBooks Online

[Vincent Dawans]

Thanks Tom. I added the link to the FAQ  FAQ - GnuCash

--Vincent

On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 9:39 AM Tom Olin  wrote:

> I’ve posted my script here:
>
> https://gist.github.com/trolin522581/cd9b8d684b0f9e0c8aed8876b256e31e
>
> I’ll leave the wiki link to someone else.
>
> --
> Tom
>
> For the government, which came first? (a) first $ taxed; (b) first
> $ borrowed; (c) first $ spent. (Hint: state or federal?)
>
> On Jul 4, 2023, at 8:31 PM, Vincent Dawans  wrote:
>
> May I suggest also posting this in the FAQ section on the wiki, there is a
> section that mentions Quickbooks import.
> See here:
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_How_do_I_import_my_data_from_...
>
> You could put your file in a github gist for easy sharing. Then link from
> the FAQ. There is already a link there for some other script from Linux
> Weekly News but I haven't checked what that looks like.
>
> On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 3:44 PM Tom Olin  wrote:
>
>> Here’s the final version (for now) of my script. I hope someone else
>> finds it useful.
>>
>> Thanks to all who responded to my query with suggestions.
>>
>> --
>> Tom
>>
>> Federal taxes can be paid with dollars, but the dollars have to
>> be created (spent) by the government before anyone has dollars with which
>> to pay their taxes.
>>
>> On Jul 4, 2023, at 8:00 AM, Tom Olin via gnucash-user <
>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org> wrote:
>>
>> Vincent,
>>
>> Thanks so much for figuring this out! If you don’t mind, I’d like to give
>> you credit in my file.
>>
>> I’m going to rerun the entire dataset as a final test. I will repost the
>> final version of the script here for anyone else looking to do this.
>>
>> Thanks, again!
>>
>> --
>> Tom
>>
>> Federal spending funds taxes. It is impossible to pay taxes until the
>> government has spent money into the economy.
>>
>> On Jul 3, 2023, at 10:37 PM, Vincent Dawans  wrote:
>>
>> Tom:
>>
>> I tested both files and it seems that it fails on the reconcile column
>> for 2022. When I skip the reconcile column it works. 2022 has Y entries in
>> that column while 2023 doesn't, and when I replace the 2022 Y entries with
>> c it works. So it seems to be related to either the inability to import
>> reconciled flag or the flag is different, I am not sure. But that's where
>> the problem is, something to do with the Y reconcile flag.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Vincent Dawans
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 4:41 PM Tom Olin > mailto:t...@tomolin.net >> wrote:
>> Vincent,
>>
>> Good suggestions. I’ve attached 2 files, 3 transactions each, for 2022
>> and 2023. Instructions for importing them are in the documentation of the
>> script, latest version also attached.
>>
>> 2022 still fails, 2023 still works. Create the accounts as needed; there
>> are only a few.
>>
>> --
>> Tom
>>
>> Money is created when banks loan and when the federal government spends.
>> The latter increases someone’s net worth. The former does not, but the
>> interest and fees transfer net worth from the borrower to the lender.
>>
>> On Jul 3, 2023, at 6:44 PM, Vincent Dawans > mailto:dawa...@gmail.com >> wrote:
>>
>> Tom:
>>
>> I haven't read every single email in this thread but have this advice for
>> you to further diagnose. When I face a puzzle like this, I like to try
>> creating the simplest possible scenario in which I am still able to
>> reproduce the problem. In this case this would start by figuring out how
>> far you can pare down your 2022 csv file while still having the problem.
>> Can you pair it down to just a few transactions, like 5 or 10 max?  Can you
>> then change some of that data in that pared down file and still have the
>> problem? By simplifying you can often more easily find the source of the
>> problem and also might be able to share your csv file when it reaches the
>> point where the data in it is no longer personal.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Vincent Dawans
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 3:35 PM Tom Olin via gnucash-user <
>> gnucash-user@gnucash.org > >> wrote:
>> I would add that I’m more inclined to attribute the problem to GnuCash
>> logic. However, the code will require a lot of study on my part before I
>> can make meaningful sense of it. I just wish I could think of some possible
>> logic that might explain it.
>>
>> --
>> Tom
>>
>> Money is created out of thin air when banks loan and when the federal
>> government spends. Money is destroyed into thin air when bank loans are
>> repaid and when federal taxes are paid.
>>
>> On Jul 3, 2023, at 5:41 PM, Ken Pyzik > mailto:py...@outlook.com >> wrote:
>>
>> Tom -- I believe at the beginning of 2022, QuickBooks went from being a
>> desktop and online software package  - to being strictly/only online.  With
>> that transition, I believe they also gave a one-year period where you could
>> export data.  While this may be a stretch, I believe that they may have
>> somehow added a change flag or some other thing to the data to prevent you

Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds

[AC]

I just took a look at the Advanced Portfolio report to see what GC 
thought about what I had done. It does appear that the basis was lost as 
part of the transfer because for each of the funds that transferred over 
the new basis is exactly the value at the time of the transfer instead 
of the original basis.


I'll try on a copy of my file just moving the investments over to see 
how the report behaves. I don't actually use this report (in fact this 
is the first time I've opened it).


I took a look at the tutorials but there isn't anything that covers 
outright transfer of a fund nor is there anything about how to update 
the basis costs and dates (or where the Advanced Portfolio report looks 
to get its basis data).


I'd like to understand the mechanism that I'd need to use for Gnucash to 
actually accomplish this type of transaction as an academic exercise. 
I'm not affected by the errors because anything having to do with taxes 
will use the original source materials/statements instead of a Gnucash 
report. It would be a useful piece of knowledge to also avoid painting 
myself into a corner where Gnucash actually breaks in some way because 
of conflicting entries. Plus, since the transfers occurred only this 
month there's very little data that I have to replace in order to make 
changes.


On 2023-07-06 08:40, David T. via gnucash-user wrote:

Kalpesh,

Your assessment regarding capital gains rates is accurate; it's been one of my problems 
with this issue for some time. It also comes up with stock splits, where the 
"new" shares should have the original acquisition date. Honestly, this is not 
an easy issue to finesse without a boatload of work.

For what it's worth (most likely not a lot), when I had a brokerage change many 
years back, I created a new account in GnuCash for that brokerage, and simply 
moved the stock accounts into that new brokerage account. It probably violates 
17 rules of accounting, but it worked for me.

⁣David T. ​

On Jul 6, 2023, 3:39 PM, at 3:39 PM, Kalpesh Patel  
wrote:

Hmmm. So I am a bit perplexed here.

Disclaimer: I am a new-bee when it comes minutiae's of the investment
transactions so I might be wrong what I am about to state. Feel free to
correct me.

If you note such factitious sale or closing of the transaction to
preserve the cost basis as you mentioned, are you not altering how long
the security is held which will impact capital gains reporting? If you
alter in such a way, I am not sure if that is same thing as
transferring the security to another account, at least not the way
brokerages do so in the US amongst them or within them.

Would you not want to simply move the original buy/sell transaction by
re-pointing one of the split line item from the old account to new one?
This I would think keeps the entire transaction intact as-is which what
the transfer should be about and then you can have a zero valued
transaction on the date of the transfer itself which would have no
impact on any reporting.


-Original Message-
From: David Carlson 
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2023 1:08 PM
To: f...@mandfb.me.uk
Cc: AC ; gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds

AC,

Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the
original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they
were purchased.  When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a
sale or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted
accordingly, even though there were no funds involved.  Of course, that
exact cost basis needs to be added to the receiving account as if the
shares were purchased at the original price.  This used to be described
in great detail in one of the help manuals, including the somewhat
tricky procedure to enter realized gains when an actual sale happens
but I haven't checked lately to see if those parts are still there.  I
know that if you do not do those things and later run a trial balance
or if you use the Investment Portfolio report, you will quickly see the
error of your ways.



On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone  wrote:


On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said:


I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another.
The process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of
control from

the

old to the new.

In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under
each brokerage as such with their respective security/currency:

Investments
-Brokerage 1 (currency)
--Fund A (security A)
--Fund B (security B)
-Brokerage 2 (currency)
--Fund A (security A)
--Fund C (security C)
--Fund D (security D)

I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a



transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved
the funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look
like the simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is

unaffected):


Investments
-Brokerage 1 (currency)
--Fund A (security A)
--Fund B (security B)
-Brokerage 

Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds

[David T. via gnucash-user]

Kalpesh,

Your assessment regarding capital gains rates is accurate; it's been one of my 
problems with this issue for some time. It also comes up with stock splits, 
where the "new" shares should have the original acquisition date. Honestly, 
this is not an easy issue to finesse without a boatload of work. 

For what it's worth (most likely not a lot), when I had a brokerage change many 
years back, I created a new account in GnuCash for that brokerage, and simply 
moved the stock accounts into that new brokerage account. It probably violates 
17 rules of accounting, but it worked for me. 

⁣David T. ​

On Jul 6, 2023, 3:39 PM, at 3:39 PM, Kalpesh Patel  
wrote:
>Hmmm. So I am a bit perplexed here. 
>
>Disclaimer: I am a new-bee when it comes minutiae's of the investment
>transactions so I might be wrong what I am about to state. Feel free to
>correct me.
>
>If you note such factitious sale or closing of the transaction to
>preserve the cost basis as you mentioned, are you not altering how long
>the security is held which will impact capital gains reporting? If you
>alter in such a way, I am not sure if that is same thing as
>transferring the security to another account, at least not the way
>brokerages do so in the US amongst them or within them. 
>
>Would you not want to simply move the original buy/sell transaction by
>re-pointing one of the split line item from the old account to new one?
>This I would think keeps the entire transaction intact as-is which what
>the transfer should be about and then you can have a zero valued
>transaction on the date of the transfer itself which would have no
>impact on any reporting.
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: David Carlson  
>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2023 1:08 PM
>To: f...@mandfb.me.uk
>Cc: AC ; gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>Subject: Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
>
>AC,
>
>Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the
>original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they
>were purchased.  When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a
>sale or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted
>accordingly, even though there were no funds involved.  Of course, that
>exact cost basis needs to be added to the receiving account as if the
>shares were purchased at the original price.  This used to be described
>in great detail in one of the help manuals, including the somewhat
>tricky procedure to enter realized gains when an actual sale happens
>but I haven't checked lately to see if those parts are still there.  I
>know that if you do not do those things and later run a trial balance
>or if you use the Investment Portfolio report, you will quickly see the
>error of your ways.
>
>
>
>On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone  wrote:
>
>> On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said:
>>
>> > I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. 
>> > The process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of 
>> > control from
>> the
>> > old to the new.
>> >
>> > In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under 
>> > each brokerage as such with their respective security/currency:
>> >
>> > Investments
>> > -Brokerage 1 (currency)
>> > --Fund A (security A)
>> > --Fund B (security B)
>> > -Brokerage 2 (currency)
>> > --Fund A (security A)
>> > --Fund C (security C)
>> > --Fund D (security D)
>> >
>> > I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a
>
>> > transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved 
>> > the funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look 
>> > like the simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is
>unaffected):
>> >
>> > Investments
>> > -Brokerage 1 (currency)
>> > --Fund A (security A)
>> > --Fund B (security B)
>> > -Brokerage 3 (currency)
>> > --Fund A (security A)
>> > --Fund B (security B)
>> >
>> > The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual 
>> > funds, just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left 
>> > intact with the funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the 
>> > funds under Brokerage 3 starting off with the incoming values.
>> >
>> > My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within 
>> > Brokerage 1 Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 
>> > Fund A but that didn't create the transaction I expected.
>> >
>> > By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10
>shares 
>> > at the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered
>
>> > -10 shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement 
>> > from Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance 
>> > correctly goes
>> to
>> > zero.
>> >
>> > Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a 
>> > transaction that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and
>a balance of zero.
>> > I can manually enter the same number of shares in that partially 
>> > empty transaction but why was my thought about the 

Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds

[David Carlson]

Moving the transaction would destroy historical information about where the
securities were kept.  Who knows what that data loss might do to world
history.  It might prove that history can be re-written at the whim of the
author.
The problem is that there is an asset and there is a value associated with
it. There is no invisible link between the two that GnuCash can
automatically track.  For securities, the relationship falls under the
definition of unrealized gains, and accountants have a variety of ways to
define the ultimate conversion from unrealized to realized gains.  When
GnuCash tracks one half without tracking the other half, some reports no
longer provide correct information.  It is up to the accountant to manually
maintain the relationship with whatever documentation is required to meet
local tax requirements.  While GnuCash has instructions to help synthesize
records to match U. S. federal tax record requirements, that may not work
in other jurisdictions.

That is as far as I will go down that rabbit hole.

On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 7:38 AM Kalpesh Patel  wrote:

> Hmmm. So I am a bit perplexed here.
>
> Disclaimer: I am a new-bee when it comes minutiae's of the investment
> transactions so I might be wrong what I am about to state. Feel free to
> correct me.
>
> If you note such factitious sale or closing of the transaction to preserve
> the cost basis as you mentioned, are you not altering how long the security
> is held which will impact capital gains reporting? If you alter in such a
> way, I am not sure if that is same thing as transferring the security to
> another account, at least not the way brokerages do so in the US amongst
> them or within them.
>
> Would you not want to simply move the original buy/sell transaction by
> re-pointing one of the split line item from the old account to new one?
> This I would think keeps the entire transaction intact as-is which what the
> transfer should be about and then you can have a zero valued transaction on
> the date of the transfer itself which would have no impact on any reporting.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: David Carlson 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2023 1:08 PM
> To: f...@mandfb.me.uk
> Cc: AC ; gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> Subject: Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
>
> AC,
>
> Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the
> original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they
> were purchased.  When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a sale
> or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted accordingly,
> even though there were no funds involved.  Of course, that exact cost basis
> needs to be added to the receiving account as if the shares were purchased
> at the original price.  This used to be described in great detail in one of
> the help manuals, including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter realized
> gains when an actual sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see if
> those parts are still there.  I know that if you do not do those things and
> later run a trial balance or if you use the Investment Portfolio report,
> you will quickly see the error of your ways.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone  wrote:
>
> > On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said:
> >
> > > I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another.
> > > The process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of
> > > control from
> > the
> > > old to the new.
> > >
> > > In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under
> > > each brokerage as such with their respective security/currency:
> > >
> > > Investments
> > > -Brokerage 1 (currency)
> > > --Fund A (security A)
> > > --Fund B (security B)
> > > -Brokerage 2 (currency)
> > > --Fund A (security A)
> > > --Fund C (security C)
> > > --Fund D (security D)
> > >
> > > I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a
> > > transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved
> > > the funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look
> > > like the simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is
> unaffected):
> > >
> > > Investments
> > > -Brokerage 1 (currency)
> > > --Fund A (security A)
> > > --Fund B (security B)
> > > -Brokerage 3 (currency)
> > > --Fund A (security A)
> > > --Fund B (security B)
> > >
> > > The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual
> > > funds, just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left
> > > intact with the funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the
> > > funds under Brokerage 3 starting off with the incoming values.
> > >
> > > My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within
> > > Brokerage 1 Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3
> > > Fund A but that didn't create the transaction I expected.
> > >
> > > By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares
> > > at the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I 

Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds

[Kalpesh Patel]

Hmmm. So I am a bit perplexed here. 

Disclaimer: I am a new-bee when it comes minutiae's of the investment 
transactions so I might be wrong what I am about to state. Feel free to correct 
me.

If you note such factitious sale or closing of the transaction to preserve the 
cost basis as you mentioned, are you not altering how long the security is held 
which will impact capital gains reporting? If you alter in such a way, I am not 
sure if that is same thing as transferring the security to another account, at 
least not the way brokerages do so in the US amongst them or within them. 

Would you not want to simply move the original buy/sell transaction by 
re-pointing one of the split line item from the old account to new one? This I 
would think keeps the entire transaction intact as-is which what the transfer 
should be about and then you can have a zero valued transaction on the date of 
the transfer itself which would have no impact on any reporting.


-Original Message-
From: David Carlson  
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2023 1:08 PM
To: f...@mandfb.me.uk
Cc: AC ; gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds

AC,

Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the original 
brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they were purchased.  
When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a sale or closing 
transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted accordingly, even though 
there were no funds involved.  Of course, that exact cost basis needs to be 
added to the receiving account as if the shares were purchased at the original 
price.  This used to be described in great detail in one of the help manuals, 
including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter realized gains when an actual 
sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see if those parts are still 
there.  I know that if you do not do those things and later run a trial balance 
or if you use the Investment Portfolio report, you will quickly see the error 
of your ways.



On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone  wrote:

> On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said:
>
> > I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. 
> > The process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of 
> > control from
> the
> > old to the new.
> >
> > In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under 
> > each brokerage as such with their respective security/currency:
> >
> > Investments
> > -Brokerage 1 (currency)
> > --Fund A (security A)
> > --Fund B (security B)
> > -Brokerage 2 (currency)
> > --Fund A (security A)
> > --Fund C (security C)
> > --Fund D (security D)
> >
> > I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a 
> > transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved 
> > the funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look 
> > like the simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is 
> > unaffected):
> >
> > Investments
> > -Brokerage 1 (currency)
> > --Fund A (security A)
> > --Fund B (security B)
> > -Brokerage 3 (currency)
> > --Fund A (security A)
> > --Fund B (security B)
> >
> > The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual 
> > funds, just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left 
> > intact with the funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the 
> > funds under Brokerage 3 starting off with the incoming values.
> >
> > My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within 
> > Brokerage 1 Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 
> > Fund A but that didn't create the transaction I expected.
> >
> > By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares 
> > at the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered 
> > -10 shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement 
> > from Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance 
> > correctly goes
> to
> > zero.
> >
> > Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a 
> > transaction that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and a 
> > balance of zero.
> > I can manually enter the same number of shares in that partially 
> > empty transaction but why was my thought about the transfer 
> > incorrect? Should
> it
> > have not transferred those shares over as well?
>
> Did you work in split view?
>
> I can replicate what I think you are saying if I don't enter the 
> separate splits.
>
> If I go about it the obvious way (in split view) and enter balancing 
> amounts then it all works.
>
> However, I'm still on 2.6.21 ...
>
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--
David Carlson