Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 10:51 AM Henry Law wrote: > On Fri, 2023-07-21 at 11:43 -0400, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: > > A good, clear example why something like that should be allowed. > > Been watching the replies to this with interest: there's a lot of > knowledge out there. > > But, thinking about it, the problem that I ran across was that the two > splits in the offending transaction had ended up with a CR and a DB for > the same amount to the same account; it was a null transaction. I > hesitate to say this, having been proved thoroughly wrong before, but > surely there can't be a reason to want a transaction like that? > I've done this with multiple splits when money is transitioning. Suppose I have a brokerage account and I sell 20 shares of XYZ at $5/share, transferring it to checking I'd have a four-way split: Sell (remove) 20 shares XYZ for $100 ($5 / share) Add $100 to SWEEP fund Remove $100 from SWEEP fund Add $100 to checking. (I'm sorry that I'm not using "Debit" and "Credit") Nevertheless, you can see the transaction above has both a debit and a credit to the same account (SWEEP fund). This is how the broker records the transaction, so I record it (it makes future reconciliation easier). _ Richard Losey rlo...@gmail.com Micah 6:8 ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 4:41 PM Stan Brown wrote: > > Here's a recent example where _three_ splits in a transaction referenced > the same account. I paid for my groceries with a credit card, then > before leaving the register I noticed that the cashier had rung up my > two $0.49 bunches of scallions as $1.99 "Mexican onions". You'd think > she would apologize and hand me the $3.00 difference in cash, or at > least just credit my card the $3.00. No, she insisted on crediting the > $3.98 mischarge, then running a new charge of the correct $0.98. The > whole operation took upwards of ten minutes, and she apparently felt no > apology was needed for her mistake and the wasted time. > > When I got home I entered the transaction like this: > Debit: Groceries $100.98 > Credit: AP CapitalOne Visa $103.98 > Debit: AP CapitalOne Visa $3.98 > Credit: AP CapitalOne Visa $0.98 > with suitable notes in the memo lines. Since there would be three lines > on my next statement, I needed three splits in GC. > I would have entered three separate transactions, since there were three separate charges/reverse charges to the credit card... it makes reconciling easier, I've found: Debit groceries 103.98 Credit Visa 103.98 Debit Visa 3.98 Credit groceries 3.98 Debit groceries 0.98 Credit Visa 0.98 (with appropriate comments in the Notes field) _ Richard Losey rlo...@gmail.com Micah 6:8 ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
More imagination? A person is making purchase with a credit card and that has processed, but tells the sales person oops, I meant to use this other credit card*. Sales person reverses the first and then re-enters with the second credit card. The point here is that the credit card statement (of the first card) will be showing two transactions, the original and its reversal. So if wanting to match what's in your books, yes you'd want those two entries in the gnucash account Michael D Novack * If this seems strange to you, consider that some of us are walking around with different credit cards for different purposes. Thus I have one strictly for tax deductible medical expenses (nothing else put on there) On 7/21/2023 11:51 AM, Henry Law wrote: On Fri, 2023-07-21 at 11:43 -0400, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: A good, clear example why something like that should be allowed. Been watching the replies to this with interest: there's a lot of knowledge out there. But, thinking about it, the problem that I ran across was that the two splits in the offending transaction had ended up with a CR and a DB for the same amount to the same account; it was a null transaction. I hesitate to say this, having been proved thoroughly wrong before, but surely there can't be a reason to want a transaction like that? ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
Yes, I use this feature a lot when purchasing bonds in bond market. In my case, first I deposit money say 2500 with broker, then I buy bonds say worth 2100 (21 bonds worth 100 each) and by end of the day I get 400 back in my bank. This I note down (simplify) as a single transaction with 3 splits: Foo bank - Debit 2500 Bond (as stock) - Credit 21 units worth 100 each Foo bank - Credit 400 Please do not disable this feature. Thanks and regards. Amish On 20/07/23 23:16, Henry Law wrote: Should GNUCash refuse to allow a transaction to have two splits into the same account? My knowledge of accounting is scant, but with it I can't see why one would ever legitimately do that. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
On 2023-07-21 08:51, Henry Law wrote: > But, thinking about it, the problem that I ran across was that the two > splits in the offending transaction had ended up with a CR and a DB for > the same amount to the same account; it was a null transaction. I > hesitate to say this, having been proved thoroughly wrong before, but > surely there can't be a reason to want a transaction like that? Indeed there can, though in my experience it's rarer than the other case. Several years ago, through a miscommunication I made a purchase in error. Since I hadn't even left the store when the charge to my credit card was reversed, I chose not to write up the purchase and un-purchase as two transactions. Instead I entered one transaction with two splits, one crediting AP CapitalOne Visa and the other debiting it. Stan Brown Tehachapi, CA, USA https://BrownMath.com ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
On Fri, 2023-07-21 at 11:43 -0400, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: > A good, clear example why something like that should be allowed. Been watching the replies to this with interest: there's a lot of knowledge out there. But, thinking about it, the problem that I ran across was that the two splits in the offending transaction had ended up with a CR and a DB for the same amount to the same account; it was a null transaction. I hesitate to say this, having been proved thoroughly wrong before, but surely there can't be a reason to want a transaction like that? -- -- Henry Lawn e w s @ l a w s h o u s e . o r g Manchester, England ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
A good, clear example why something like that should be allowed. Ordinary users need examples like that to make it real to them (why should NOT be disallowed even though very rarely needed). I would perhaps just have pointed out that gnucash should not disallow something that COULD be entered "pen and ink on paper" but too few of you out there learned bookkeeping back in those days. Stan, not unusual for it to be done that way. Suppose it was widgets instead of scallions vs bunching onions (those not accounted for by "inventory" but widgets would be. And assume that the cashier's POS system was also feeding the inventory system. By cancelling the sale of widgetA and then entering widgetB he/she has also corrected inventory as well as the money in your card account. Michael D Novack On 7/20/2023 5:40 PM, Stan Brown wrote: On 2023-07-20 10:46, Henry Law wrote: Should GNUCash refuse to allow a transaction to have two splits into the same account? My knowledge of accounting is scant, but with it I can't see why one would ever legitimately do that. Here's a recent example where _three_ splits in a transaction referenced the same account. I paid for my groceries with a credit card, then before leaving the register I noticed that the cashier had rung up my two $0.49 bunches of scallions as $1.99 "Mexican onions". You'd think she would apologize and hand me the $3.00 difference in cash, or at least just credit my card the $3.00. No, she insisted on crediting the $3.98 mischarge, then running a new charge of the correct $0.98. The whole operation took upwards of ten minutes, and she apparently felt no apology was needed for her mistake and the wasted time. When I got home I entered the transaction like this: Debit: Groceries $100.98 Credit: AP CapitalOne Visa $103.98 Debit: AP CapitalOne Visa $3.98 Credit: AP CapitalOne Visa $0.98 with suitable notes in the memo lines. Since there would be three lines on my next statement, I needed three splits in GC. (The other groceries didn't cost $100, but I use that number to make the transaction clearer for this note.) BTW, a split _does_ reference only one account. I think you meant to say "a transaction" rather than "a split" in your subject line. Stan Brown Tehachapi, CA, USA https://BrownMath.com ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. -- There is no possibility of social justice on a dead planet except the equality of the grave. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 18:46:08 +0100 Henry Law wrote: > Earlier today my wife was running GNUCash to update "her" bit of the > accounts and got into a serious tangle because she (inadvertently) > changed a newly-imported transaction so that its two splits -- which > should have been our current account and her credit card account -- > both referred to the credit card account. She then reconciled one > half and not the other, which caused a cascade of issues which took me > several hours and a manual edit to the GNUCash file to fix. > > Should GNUCash refuse to allow a transaction to have two splits into > the same account? My knowledge of accounting is scant, but with it I > can't see why one would ever legitimately do that. With the benefit of hindsight, would going back to a previous save have been a better thing from a time perspective? Liz ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
On Thu, 2023-07-20 at 14:40 -0700, Stan Brown wrote: > Here's a recent example where _three_ splits in a transaction > referenced > the same account. Just goes to show that what a career in IT taught me: the world is always more complex than one individual can understand! Thank you. -- -- Henry Lawn e w s @ l a w s h o u s e . o r g Manchester, England ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
Just to add one more instance, the business features, regularly do this, when entering a bill or invoice. 10 items on an invoice/bill could correspond to as many as 10 different income/expense accounts, or as few as one. Once the transaction has been posted, (one transaction per invoice/bill), you can look it up and find one split per line item, and these may all be to the same account, or not, depending on whether they should. > On Jul 20, 2023, at 2:35 PM, David Carlson > wrote: > > Yes. I do it monthly in some accounts where I make a minimum payment on a > loan and separately add an additional amount. > > > > On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 1:18 PM Henry Law wrote: > >> Earlier today my wife was running GNUCash to update "her" bit of the >> accounts and got into a serious tangle because she (inadvertently) >> changed a newly-imported transaction so that its two splits -- which >> should have been our current account and her credit card account -- >> both referred to the credit card account. She then reconciled one half >> and not the other, which caused a cascade of issues which took me >> several hours and a manual edit to the GNUCash file to fix. >> >> Should GNUCash refuse to allow a transaction to have two splits into >> the same account? My knowledge of accounting is scant, but with it I >> can't see why one would ever legitimately do that. >> >> -- >> -- >> Henry Lawn e w s @ l a w s h o u s e . o r g >> Manchester, England >> ___ >> gnucash-user mailing list >> gnucash-user@gnucash.org >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >> - >> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. >> > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
On 2023-07-20 10:46, Henry Law wrote: > Should GNUCash refuse to allow a transaction to have two splits into > the same account? My knowledge of accounting is scant, but with it I > can't see why one would ever legitimately do that. Here's a recent example where _three_ splits in a transaction referenced the same account. I paid for my groceries with a credit card, then before leaving the register I noticed that the cashier had rung up my two $0.49 bunches of scallions as $1.99 "Mexican onions". You'd think she would apologize and hand me the $3.00 difference in cash, or at least just credit my card the $3.00. No, she insisted on crediting the $3.98 mischarge, then running a new charge of the correct $0.98. The whole operation took upwards of ten minutes, and she apparently felt no apology was needed for her mistake and the wasted time. When I got home I entered the transaction like this: Debit: Groceries $100.98 Credit: AP CapitalOne Visa $103.98 Debit: AP CapitalOne Visa $3.98 Credit: AP CapitalOne Visa $0.98 with suitable notes in the memo lines. Since there would be three lines on my next statement, I needed three splits in GC. (The other groceries didn't cost $100, but I use that number to make the transaction clearer for this note.) BTW, a split _does_ reference only one account. I think you meant to say "a transaction" rather than "a split" in your subject line. Stan Brown Tehachapi, CA, USA https://BrownMath.com ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
> On Jul 20, 2023, at 10:46 AM, Henry Law wrote: > > Earlier today my wife was running GNUCash to update "her" bit of the > accounts and got into a serious tangle because she (inadvertently) > changed a newly-imported transaction so that its two splits -- which > should have been our current account and her credit card account -- > both referred to the credit card account. She then reconciled one half > and not the other, which caused a cascade of issues which took me > several hours and a manual edit to the GNUCash file to fix. That's too bad. The transaction should have been readily apparent in both the credit card register and in the reconcile window because it would appear twice in both once with a debit and once with a credit: One doesn't usually have debits in a credit card account so that's an obvious red flag. The register would also show the credit card account in the transfer account column, another easily-spotted red flag. The fix is to simply change that to the current account; GnuCash would I think ask you if you really want to change a reconciled transaction, to which you'd reply that you would, and once you had finished with it you'd re-do the reconcile. > > Should GNUCash refuse to allow a transaction to have two splits into > the same account? My knowledge of accounting is scant, but with it I > can't see why one would ever legitimately do that. > It's normal in GnuCash to book both the sale and capital gains of a security or foreign currency asset in the same transaction by having two splits to the stock account. Regards, John Ralls ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
There are many situations where that can legitimately happen-- for example, when you have two charges contributing to a particular total (think of a paycheck with income from base salary and income from bonuses). Your want to see each listed separately, even though they combine to one final figure. And yes, it can be confusing. I have found that changing the register view to Transaction View can simplify things by showing each transaction as a single entity, with each entry split showing as part of the whole. David T. On Jul 20, 2023, 9:19 PM, at 9:19 PM, Henry Law wrote: >Earlier today my wife was running GNUCash to update "her" bit of the >accounts and got into a serious tangle because she (inadvertently) >changed a newly-imported transaction so that its two splits -- which >should have been our current account and her credit card account -- >both referred to the credit card account. She then reconciled one half >and not the other, which caused a cascade of issues which took me >several hours and a manual edit to the GNUCash file to fix. > >Should GNUCash refuse to allow a transaction to have two splits into >the same account? My knowledge of accounting is scant, but with it I >can't see why one would ever legitimately do that. > >-- >-- >Henry Lawn e w s @ l a w s h o u s e . o r g >Manchester, England >___ >gnucash-user mailing list >gnucash-user@gnucash.org >To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >- >Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
Yes. I do it monthly in some accounts where I make a minimum payment on a loan and separately add an additional amount. On Thu, Jul 20, 2023, 1:18 PM Henry Law wrote: > Earlier today my wife was running GNUCash to update "her" bit of the > accounts and got into a serious tangle because she (inadvertently) > changed a newly-imported transaction so that its two splits -- which > should have been our current account and her credit card account -- > both referred to the credit card account. She then reconciled one half > and not the other, which caused a cascade of issues which took me > several hours and a manual edit to the GNUCash file to fix. > > Should GNUCash refuse to allow a transaction to have two splits into > the same account? My knowledge of accounting is scant, but with it I > can't see why one would ever legitimately do that. > > -- > -- > Henry Lawn e w s @ l a w s h o u s e . o r g > Manchester, England > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
[GNC] Should GNUCash allow a split to reference the same account twice
Earlier today my wife was running GNUCash to update "her" bit of the accounts and got into a serious tangle because she (inadvertently) changed a newly-imported transaction so that its two splits -- which should have been our current account and her credit card account -- both referred to the credit card account. She then reconciled one half and not the other, which caused a cascade of issues which took me several hours and a manual edit to the GNUCash file to fix. Should GNUCash refuse to allow a transaction to have two splits into the same account? My knowledge of accounting is scant, but with it I can't see why one would ever legitimately do that. -- -- Henry Lawn e w s @ l a w s h o u s e . o r g Manchester, England ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
