Re: [GNC] Transactions in Placeholder
Ha - that's this very thread! Sorry for the noise. Regards, Adrien On 5/2/23 7:45 AM, Adrien Monteleone wrote: Someone reported that the CSV importer was adding to placeholders as well. Perhaps these issues are related to the same code block. Regards, Adrien On 5/1/23 2:06 PM, David T. via gnucash-user wrote: I'm going to follow up my own message to note that I have now found that GnuCash 4.13 under Windows 10 will add transactions to a placeholder account even while displaying a message stating that it cannot write transactions to placeholder accounts! I've just had GnuCash do this twice, when it used an ancient transaction as a template (I'll write about that in a different thread shortly) that has an account that I have since set as a placeholder account and hidden because it is closed. Something is clearly broken here. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transactions in Placeholder
Someone reported that the CSV importer was adding to placeholders as well. Perhaps these issues are related to the same code block. Regards, Adrien On 5/1/23 2:06 PM, David T. via gnucash-user wrote: I'm going to follow up my own message to note that I have now found that GnuCash 4.13 under Windows 10 will add transactions to a placeholder account even while displaying a message stating that it cannot write transactions to placeholder accounts! I've just had GnuCash do this twice, when it used an ancient transaction as a template (I'll write about that in a different thread shortly) that has an account that I have since set as a placeholder account and hidden because it is closed. Something is clearly broken here. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transactions in Placeholder
I'm going to follow up my own message to note that I have now found that GnuCash 4.13 under Windows 10 will add transactions to a placeholder account even while displaying a message stating that it cannot write transactions to placeholder accounts! I've just had GnuCash do this twice, when it used an ancient transaction as a template (I'll write about that in a different thread shortly) that has an account that I have since set as a placeholder account and hidden because it is closed. Something is clearly broken here. David T. On Apr 29, 2023, 9:44 PM, at 9:44 PM, "David T. via gnucash-user" wrote: >Michael, > >The OP problem had to do with the importer adding transactions to a >placeholder account. So that's why I am discussing that, rather than >bringing up the creation of new accounts in the process. I'm not even >sure how that applies here; a newly-created account during the import >process (if such is even achievable in the import process) would >presumably not be set as a placeholder account. > >GnuCash already prevents a user from entering transactions into a >placeholder account-- and even prevents you from opening such accounts >without an explicit (non standard) open mode. The only way I know of >entering transactions into a placeholder account is to turn off the >setting first. Of course, then, it's not a placeholder account... > >Again, in my example, you're missing the point. I'm not talking about >the special case where a user has elevated rights and logs in specially >to use them. I'm talking about a system allowing any user to change any >file-- or worse, a system changing them as a result of some other >action I took. If I, as a regular user, were to overwrite YOUR files, >you'd be rather upset. > >I'll repeat: adding transactions to a placeholder account during an >import should not be possible, since it violates the GnuCash definition >of a placeholder account. > >David T. > >On Apr 29, 2023, 6:17 PM, at 6:17 PM, Michael or Penny Novack > wrote: >>On 4/29/2023 10:08 AM, David T. wrote: >>> Michael, >>> >>> I disagree. The importer shouldn't put transacting into an account >>> that is--by definition-- write protected. >>> >>> My counter example would be a write-protected file folder. An >>> operating system that allowed a user to put data into a >>> write-protected folder would come in for serious criticism. >>> >>> Temporary records should go somewhere, for sure. It's been my >>> experience that GnuCash uses Imbalance-xxx for such transactions. >Why >> >>> would you ever expect to put them in write-protected accounts? >>> >>You are talking about the behavior of the IMPORTER. >> >>Your proposed solution would affect ANY entry of transactions. >> >>And an operating system SHOULD allow writing into a write protected >>folder whenever the person (or program) doing so has sufficient >>"rights" >><< normally when I am logged in it is WITHOUT admin rights (even on my > >>home system) -- bear in mind decades in the cypher mines where I had >to >> >>be very conscious of whether I was using my ordinary login or my >>"prod*" >>log in. Like in the middle of the night emergency fix to a hanging >>production program -- doing this during the day I would walk over to >>the >>desk of whoever normally handled "builds" and have them do the >>replacement of the program in the production library>> >> >>Michael >> >>PS --- By all means ask for a change to the behavior of the importer >if >> >>you think that is in order. But actually what you want is that the >>importer verify that it isn't specifying an account that does not >exist >> >>OR one that is a placeholder. We used to call something like the the >>"input editor" portion of a transaction handling program. >___ >gnucash-user mailing list >gnucash-user@gnucash.org >To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >- >Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transactions in Placeholder
Michael, The OP problem had to do with the importer adding transactions to a placeholder account. So that's why I am discussing that, rather than bringing up the creation of new accounts in the process. I'm not even sure how that applies here; a newly-created account during the import process (if such is even achievable in the import process) would presumably not be set as a placeholder account. GnuCash already prevents a user from entering transactions into a placeholder account-- and even prevents you from opening such accounts without an explicit (non standard) open mode. The only way I know of entering transactions into a placeholder account is to turn off the setting first. Of course, then, it's not a placeholder account... Again, in my example, you're missing the point. I'm not talking about the special case where a user has elevated rights and logs in specially to use them. I'm talking about a system allowing any user to change any file-- or worse, a system changing them as a result of some other action I took. If I, as a regular user, were to overwrite YOUR files, you'd be rather upset. I'll repeat: adding transactions to a placeholder account during an import should not be possible, since it violates the GnuCash definition of a placeholder account. David T. On Apr 29, 2023, 6:17 PM, at 6:17 PM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: >On 4/29/2023 10:08 AM, David T. wrote: >> Michael, >> >> I disagree. The importer shouldn't put transacting into an account >> that is--by definition-- write protected. >> >> My counter example would be a write-protected file folder. An >> operating system that allowed a user to put data into a >> write-protected folder would come in for serious criticism. >> >> Temporary records should go somewhere, for sure. It's been my >> experience that GnuCash uses Imbalance-xxx for such transactions. Why > >> would you ever expect to put them in write-protected accounts? >> >You are talking about the behavior of the IMPORTER. > >Your proposed solution would affect ANY entry of transactions. > >And an operating system SHOULD allow writing into a write protected >folder whenever the person (or program) doing so has sufficient >"rights" ><< normally when I am logged in it is WITHOUT admin rights (even on my >home system) -- bear in mind decades in the cypher mines where I had to > >be very conscious of whether I was using my ordinary login or my >"prod*" >log in. Like in the middle of the night emergency fix to a hanging >production program -- doing this during the day I would walk over to >the >desk of whoever normally handled "builds" and have them do the >replacement of the program in the production library>> > >Michael > >PS --- By all means ask for a change to the behavior of the importer if > >you think that is in order. But actually what you want is that the >importer verify that it isn't specifying an account that does not exist > >OR one that is a placeholder. We used to call something like the the >"input editor" portion of a transaction handling program. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transactions in Placeholder
On 2023-04-29 08:17, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: > And an operating system SHOULD allow writing into a write protected > folder whenever the person (or program) doing so has sufficient "rights" Oh dear no. It should let someone with privilege write into the folder _after requiring the user to confirm the operation_ (or to remove the write protection status, of course). That two-step operation is protection against a careless keypress wreaking havoc. Stan Brown Tehachapi, CA, USA https://BrownMath.com ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transactions in Placeholder
On 4/29/2023 10:08 AM, David T. wrote: Michael, I disagree. The importer shouldn't put transacting into an account that is--by definition-- write protected. My counter example would be a write-protected file folder. An operating system that allowed a user to put data into a write-protected folder would come in for serious criticism. Temporary records should go somewhere, for sure. It's been my experience that GnuCash uses Imbalance-xxx for such transactions. Why would you ever expect to put them in write-protected accounts? You are talking about the behavior of the IMPORTER. Your proposed solution would affect ANY entry of transactions. And an operating system SHOULD allow writing into a write protected folder whenever the person (or program) doing so has sufficient "rights" << normally when I am logged in it is WITHOUT admin rights (even on my home system) -- bear in mind decades in the cypher mines where I had to be very conscious of whether I was using my ordinary login or my "prod*" log in. Like in the middle of the night emergency fix to a hanging production program -- doing this during the day I would walk over to the desk of whoever normally handled "builds" and have them do the replacement of the program in the production library>> Michael PS --- By all means ask for a change to the behavior of the importer if you think that is in order. But actually what you want is that the importer verify that it isn't specifying an account that does not exist OR one that is a placeholder. We used to call something like the the "input editor" portion of a transaction handling program. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transactions in Placeholder
Michael, I disagree. The importer shouldn't put transacting into an account that is--by definition-- write protected. My counter example would be a write-protected file folder. An operating system that allowed a user to put data into a write-protected folder would come in for serious criticism. Temporary records should go somewhere, for sure. It's been my experience that GnuCash uses Imbalance-xxx for such transactions. Why would you ever expect to put them in write-protected accounts? David T. On Apr 29, 2023, 4:52 PM, at 4:52 PM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: >On 4/29/2023 2:39 AM, David T. via gnucash-user wrote: >> There's no hard rule either way. Some users feel strongly about not >having any transactions in placeholder accounts, though, and advocate >loudly on the list in support of it. But there's nothing in the >software preventing a placeholder account having transactions in it. >> >> That said, the importer really shouldn't put transactions into a >placeholder, since the whole point of the placeholder designation is to >prevent transactions from being put there. That sounds like a bug. > >I wouldn't go so far as to call it a bug. Do we really need a prevent >stupid mistake fence here? A hard fence? << a soft fence that can be >enabled/disabled as a user option significantly more work >> > >In the normal course of things, the logical INTENT of having a >placeholder account is that it is an account concept (sort of account) >that has a number of child accounts dividing that concept up in finer >detail. That said > >Consider the work flow ... you are entering transactions and in that >process find you have a number within that concept that do NOT properly > >fit any of the existing child accounts. Yes you can create accounts on >the fly BUT you might immediately see that once you have created this >new child or children, SOME of the transactions currently recorded in >one or more of the preexisting children really should be moved to one >of >these new children. > >In other words, you have work to do, and maybe in the middle of >entering >transactions not the best place to do that work. I, for one, do not >want >to ever interrupt the task of entering a stack of transactions because >THAT is a possible source of error, one that gnucash or any other >accounting app does not protect us from << getting wrong where we were >when resuming entering that stack; do one twice or miss one >> > >SO I like it that I could temporarily enter these transactions >into >the parent and leave the clean-up for a later time. The presence of >transactions in the parent that is logically a placeholder serves as a >reminder "you've got work to do here" << for THAT reason I would use >the >following work flow for that --- first create the new child/children, >second move any in the preexisting children that better fit here, and >only last distribute those in parent to the proper children. That way, >if this task is interrupted, the transactions remaining in the parent >serve to indicate "not done yet". And in exceptional situations maybe >you want to leave an oddball transaction there (in the parent) because > >you do not expect there to be others oddball in the same way. > >So I would prefer using gnucash with the option "allow" (transactions >in >parent intended as a placeholder) trusting my good sense from keeping >me >from ACCIDENTALLY entering a transaction there. > > >Michael D Novack > > > > >___ >gnucash-user mailing list >gnucash-user@gnucash.org >To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >- >Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transactions in Placeholder
On 4/29/2023 2:39 AM, David T. via gnucash-user wrote: There's no hard rule either way. Some users feel strongly about not having any transactions in placeholder accounts, though, and advocate loudly on the list in support of it. But there's nothing in the software preventing a placeholder account having transactions in it. That said, the importer really shouldn't put transactions into a placeholder, since the whole point of the placeholder designation is to prevent transactions from being put there. That sounds like a bug. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a bug. Do we really need a prevent stupid mistake fence here? A hard fence? << a soft fence that can be enabled/disabled as a user option significantly more work >> In the normal course of things, the logical INTENT of having a placeholder account is that it is an account concept (sort of account) that has a number of child accounts dividing that concept up in finer detail. That said Consider the work flow ... you are entering transactions and in that process find you have a number within that concept that do NOT properly fit any of the existing child accounts. Yes you can create accounts on the fly BUT you might immediately see that once you have created this new child or children, SOME of the transactions currently recorded in one or more of the preexisting children really should be moved to one of these new children. In other words, you have work to do, and maybe in the middle of entering transactions not the best place to do that work. I, for one, do not want to ever interrupt the task of entering a stack of transactions because THAT is a possible source of error, one that gnucash or any other accounting app does not protect us from << getting wrong where we were when resuming entering that stack; do one twice or miss one >> SO I like it that I could temporarily enter these transactions into the parent and leave the clean-up for a later time. The presence of transactions in the parent that is logically a placeholder serves as a reminder "you've got work to do here" << for THAT reason I would use the following work flow for that --- first create the new child/children, second move any in the preexisting children that better fit here, and only last distribute those in parent to the proper children. That way, if this task is interrupted, the transactions remaining in the parent serve to indicate "not done yet". And in exceptional situations maybe you want to leave an oddball transaction there (in the parent) because you do not expect there to be others oddball in the same way. So I would prefer using gnucash with the option "allow" (transactions in parent intended as a placeholder) trusting my good sense from keeping me from ACCIDENTALLY entering a transaction there. Michael D Novack ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transactions in Placeholder
There's no hard rule either way. Some users feel strongly about not having any transactions in placeholder accounts, though, and advocate loudly on the list in support of it. But there's nothing in the software preventing a placeholder account having transactions in it. That said, the importer really shouldn't put transactions into a placeholder, since the whole point of the placeholder designation is to prevent transactions from being put there. That sounds like a bug. David T. On Apr 29, 2023, 8:30 AM, at 8:30 AM, Fred Tydeman wrote: >My understanding is Placeholder accounts should have zero transactions >in >them. > >However, when I Import a QIF file, sometimes I end up with transactions >in >a Placeholder account. > >It would be nice if the importer would give a warning about putting >transactions into a Placeholder account. That way, I could pick a >different account to import into. >___ >gnucash-user mailing list >gnucash-user@gnucash.org >To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >- >Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
[GNC] Transactions in Placeholder
My understanding is Placeholder accounts should have zero transactions in them. However, when I Import a QIF file, sometimes I end up with transactions in a Placeholder account. It would be nice if the importer would give a warning about putting transactions into a Placeholder account. That way, I could pick a different account to import into. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
