Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
Oops forward to user list. On Fri, 7 July 2023, 12:24 pm AC, wrote: > On 2023-07-06 20:46, Christopher Lam wrote: > > On Fri, 7 July 2023, 11:31 am AC, wrote: > > > >> > >> I'm able to log into the new broker's website and see the entire history > >> of each fund since I first purchased shares even though I've only been > >> with the broker for a week. There just doesn't seem to be a good method > >> for handling something like this or at least not one that is obvious. > >> > > > > The obvious answer/hack is to simply reparent the stock account from > > BrokerA:STOCK to BrokerB:STOCK. > > > >> > > > Yeah, that just makes things strange because inside the account are > transactions with the old brokerage that would then disagree with the > account tree. > ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
Yes it is a total transfer as if I had a basket of widgets in my kitchen, picked it up and placed it in my neighbor's kitchen. The widgets didn't change, only the storage location. I'm able to log into the new broker's website and see the entire history of each fund since I first purchased shares even though I've only been with the broker for a week. There just doesn't seem to be a good method for handling something like this or at least not one that is obvious. Even if there's some kind of hackery/kludgery needed it would be useful to know how that works and maybe could be addressed as part of a future feature request. As I mentioned before it's academic because I don't use Gnucash's reports to perform any critical tasks like tax computations but if someone has done it in a way that worked I'd really like to know. On 2023-07-06 19:09, R Losey wrote: If it's truly some kind of rollover, Gnucash does allow an exchange of shares without a price. But I don't know how you'd keep the cost basis in the new account. On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 5:49 PM David Carlson wrote: AC, Yes, to keep GnuCash happy you want to transfer the cost basis as well as the securities to the new brokerage account. By entering the transactions as a sale at the same price that you purchased the the security and a new purchase at that same price, you are transferring the cost basis, Since that is not a real sale, there is no realized gain or loss to report to the taxman until you really do sell If you didn't transfer the cost, then GnuCash would think that the old account still had a cost for a now non-existent asset and the new account got the security free. You may have to provide that same information to your broker or custodian if they didn't get it automatically. On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 3:31 PM AC wrote: Answering two at once: Fred: No I did not work in split view. I was just working at the single account level. David: Are you saying I need to instruct GnuCash to treat the transfer as a sale even though there was no sale thus no realized gains/losses and no actual change in the cost basis? On 2023-07-05 10:07, David Carlson wrote: AC, Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they were purchased. When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a sale or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted accordingly, even though there were no funds involved. Of course, that exact cost basis needs to be added to the receiving account as if the shares were purchased at the original price. This used to be described in great detail in one of the help manuals, including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter realized gains when an actual sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see if those parts are still there. I know that if you do not do those things and later run a trial balance or if you use the Investment Portfolio report, you will quickly see the error of your ways. On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone wrote: On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said: I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. The process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of control from the old to the new. In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under each brokerage as such with their respective security/currency: Investments -Brokerage 1 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) -Brokerage 2 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund C (security C) --Fund D (security D) I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved the funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look like the simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is unaffected): Investments -Brokerage 1 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) -Brokerage 3 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual funds, just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left intact with the funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the funds under Brokerage 3 starting off with the incoming values. My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within Brokerage 1 Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 Fund A but that didn't create the transaction I expected. By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares at the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered -10 shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement from Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance correctly goes to zero. Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a transaction that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and a balance of zero. I can manually enter the same number of
Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
If it's truly some kind of rollover, Gnucash does allow an exchange of shares without a price. But I don't know how you'd keep the cost basis in the new account. On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 5:49 PM David Carlson wrote: > AC, > > Yes, to keep GnuCash happy you want to transfer the cost basis as well as > the securities to the new brokerage account. By entering the transactions > as a sale at the same price that you purchased the the security and a new > purchase at that same price, you are transferring the cost basis, Since > that is not a real sale, there is no realized gain or loss to report to the > taxman until you really do sell > > If you didn't transfer the cost, then GnuCash would think that the old > account still had a cost for a now non-existent asset and the new account > got the security free. You may have to provide that same information to > your broker or custodian if they didn't get it automatically. > > > > On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 3:31 PM AC wrote: > > > Answering two at once: > > > > Fred: No I did not work in split view. I was just working at the single > > account level. > > > > David: Are you saying I need to instruct GnuCash to treat the transfer > > as a sale even though there was no sale thus no realized gains/losses > > and no actual change in the cost basis? > > > > On 2023-07-05 10:07, David Carlson wrote: > > > AC, > > > > > > Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the > > > original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they > > > were purchased. When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a > sale > > > or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted > > accordingly, > > > even though there were no funds involved. Of course, that exact cost > > basis > > > needs to be added to the receiving account as if the shares were > > purchased > > > at the original price. This used to be described in great detail in > one > > of > > > the help manuals, including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter > > realized > > > gains when an actual sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see > if > > > those parts are still there. I know that if you do not do those things > > and > > > later run a trial balance or if you use the Investment Portfolio > report, > > > you will quickly see the error of your ways. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone wrote: > > > > > >> On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said: > > >> > > >>> I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. The > > >>> process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of control > from > > >> the > > >>> old to the new. > > >>> > > >>> In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under > each > > >>> brokerage as such with their respective security/currency: > > >>> > > >>> Investments > > >>> -Brokerage 1 (currency) > > >>> --Fund A (security A) > > >>> --Fund B (security B) > > >>> -Brokerage 2 (currency) > > >>> --Fund A (security A) > > >>> --Fund C (security C) > > >>> --Fund D (security D) > > >>> > > >>> I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a > > >>> transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved the > > >>> funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look like > the > > >>> simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is > unaffected): > > >>> > > >>> Investments > > >>> -Brokerage 1 (currency) > > >>> --Fund A (security A) > > >>> --Fund B (security B) > > >>> -Brokerage 3 (currency) > > >>> --Fund A (security A) > > >>> --Fund B (security B) > > >>> > > >>> The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual > > funds, > > >>> just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left intact with > the > > >>> funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the funds under > Brokerage > > 3 > > >>> starting off with the incoming values. > > >>> > > >>> My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within > Brokerage > > 1 > > >>> Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 Fund A but that > > >>> didn't create the transaction I expected. > > >>> > > >>> By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares > at > > >>> the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered -10 > > >>> shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement from > > >>> Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance correctly > goes > > >> to > > >>> zero. > > >>> > > >>> Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a > transaction > > >>> that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and a balance of > > zero. > > >>> I can manually enter the same number of shares in that partially > empty > > >>> transaction but why was my thought about the transfer incorrect? > Should > > >> it > > >>> have not transferred those shares over as well? > > >> > > >> Did you work in split view? > > >> > > >> I can replicate what I think you are saying if I don't enter
Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 05:16, AC wrote: > I just took a look at the Advanced Portfolio report to see what GC > thought about what I had done. It does appear that the basis was lost as > part of the transfer because for each of the funds that transferred over > the new basis is exactly the value at the time of the transfer instead > of the original basis. > I believe the advanced portfolio, portfolio, and IFRS weighted-average cost basis reports all analyze a stock *account'*s old transactions to determine basis. Therefore, if you create a lateral transfer from BrokerA:STOCK to BrokerB:STOCK, it is not surprising that the basis is lost. The solution will be to calculate any gains manually. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
I just took a look at the Advanced Portfolio report to see what GC thought about what I had done. It does appear that the basis was lost as part of the transfer because for each of the funds that transferred over the new basis is exactly the value at the time of the transfer instead of the original basis. I'll try on a copy of my file just moving the investments over to see how the report behaves. I don't actually use this report (in fact this is the first time I've opened it). I took a look at the tutorials but there isn't anything that covers outright transfer of a fund nor is there anything about how to update the basis costs and dates (or where the Advanced Portfolio report looks to get its basis data). I'd like to understand the mechanism that I'd need to use for Gnucash to actually accomplish this type of transaction as an academic exercise. I'm not affected by the errors because anything having to do with taxes will use the original source materials/statements instead of a Gnucash report. It would be a useful piece of knowledge to also avoid painting myself into a corner where Gnucash actually breaks in some way because of conflicting entries. Plus, since the transfers occurred only this month there's very little data that I have to replace in order to make changes. On 2023-07-06 08:40, David T. via gnucash-user wrote: Kalpesh, Your assessment regarding capital gains rates is accurate; it's been one of my problems with this issue for some time. It also comes up with stock splits, where the "new" shares should have the original acquisition date. Honestly, this is not an easy issue to finesse without a boatload of work. For what it's worth (most likely not a lot), when I had a brokerage change many years back, I created a new account in GnuCash for that brokerage, and simply moved the stock accounts into that new brokerage account. It probably violates 17 rules of accounting, but it worked for me. David T. On Jul 6, 2023, 3:39 PM, at 3:39 PM, Kalpesh Patel wrote: Hmmm. So I am a bit perplexed here. Disclaimer: I am a new-bee when it comes minutiae's of the investment transactions so I might be wrong what I am about to state. Feel free to correct me. If you note such factitious sale or closing of the transaction to preserve the cost basis as you mentioned, are you not altering how long the security is held which will impact capital gains reporting? If you alter in such a way, I am not sure if that is same thing as transferring the security to another account, at least not the way brokerages do so in the US amongst them or within them. Would you not want to simply move the original buy/sell transaction by re-pointing one of the split line item from the old account to new one? This I would think keeps the entire transaction intact as-is which what the transfer should be about and then you can have a zero valued transaction on the date of the transfer itself which would have no impact on any reporting. -Original Message- From: David Carlson Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2023 1:08 PM To: f...@mandfb.me.uk Cc: AC ; gnucash-user@gnucash.org Subject: Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds AC, Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they were purchased. When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a sale or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted accordingly, even though there were no funds involved. Of course, that exact cost basis needs to be added to the receiving account as if the shares were purchased at the original price. This used to be described in great detail in one of the help manuals, including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter realized gains when an actual sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see if those parts are still there. I know that if you do not do those things and later run a trial balance or if you use the Investment Portfolio report, you will quickly see the error of your ways. On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone wrote: On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said: I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. The process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of control from the old to the new. In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under each brokerage as such with their respective security/currency: Investments -Brokerage 1 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) -Brokerage 2 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund C (security C) --Fund D (security D) I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved the funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look like the simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is unaffected): Investments -Brokerage 1 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B)
Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
Kalpesh, Your assessment regarding capital gains rates is accurate; it's been one of my problems with this issue for some time. It also comes up with stock splits, where the "new" shares should have the original acquisition date. Honestly, this is not an easy issue to finesse without a boatload of work. For what it's worth (most likely not a lot), when I had a brokerage change many years back, I created a new account in GnuCash for that brokerage, and simply moved the stock accounts into that new brokerage account. It probably violates 17 rules of accounting, but it worked for me. David T. On Jul 6, 2023, 3:39 PM, at 3:39 PM, Kalpesh Patel wrote: >Hmmm. So I am a bit perplexed here. > >Disclaimer: I am a new-bee when it comes minutiae's of the investment >transactions so I might be wrong what I am about to state. Feel free to >correct me. > >If you note such factitious sale or closing of the transaction to >preserve the cost basis as you mentioned, are you not altering how long >the security is held which will impact capital gains reporting? If you >alter in such a way, I am not sure if that is same thing as >transferring the security to another account, at least not the way >brokerages do so in the US amongst them or within them. > >Would you not want to simply move the original buy/sell transaction by >re-pointing one of the split line item from the old account to new one? >This I would think keeps the entire transaction intact as-is which what >the transfer should be about and then you can have a zero valued >transaction on the date of the transfer itself which would have no >impact on any reporting. > > >-Original Message- >From: David Carlson >Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2023 1:08 PM >To: f...@mandfb.me.uk >Cc: AC ; gnucash-user@gnucash.org >Subject: Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds > >AC, > >Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the >original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they >were purchased. When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a >sale or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted >accordingly, even though there were no funds involved. Of course, that >exact cost basis needs to be added to the receiving account as if the >shares were purchased at the original price. This used to be described >in great detail in one of the help manuals, including the somewhat >tricky procedure to enter realized gains when an actual sale happens >but I haven't checked lately to see if those parts are still there. I >know that if you do not do those things and later run a trial balance >or if you use the Investment Portfolio report, you will quickly see the >error of your ways. > > > >On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone wrote: > >> On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said: >> >> > I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. >> > The process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of >> > control from >> the >> > old to the new. >> > >> > In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under >> > each brokerage as such with their respective security/currency: >> > >> > Investments >> > -Brokerage 1 (currency) >> > --Fund A (security A) >> > --Fund B (security B) >> > -Brokerage 2 (currency) >> > --Fund A (security A) >> > --Fund C (security C) >> > --Fund D (security D) >> > >> > I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a > >> > transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved >> > the funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look >> > like the simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is >unaffected): >> > >> > Investments >> > -Brokerage 1 (currency) >> > --Fund A (security A) >> > --Fund B (security B) >> > -Brokerage 3 (currency) >> > --Fund A (security A) >> > --Fund B (security B) >> > >> > The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual >> > funds, just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left >> > intact with the funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the >> > funds under Brokerage 3 starting off with the incoming values. >> > >> > My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within >> > Brokerage 1 Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 >> > Fund A but that didn't create the transaction I expected. >> > >> > By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 >shar
Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
Moving the transaction would destroy historical information about where the securities were kept. Who knows what that data loss might do to world history. It might prove that history can be re-written at the whim of the author. The problem is that there is an asset and there is a value associated with it. There is no invisible link between the two that GnuCash can automatically track. For securities, the relationship falls under the definition of unrealized gains, and accountants have a variety of ways to define the ultimate conversion from unrealized to realized gains. When GnuCash tracks one half without tracking the other half, some reports no longer provide correct information. It is up to the accountant to manually maintain the relationship with whatever documentation is required to meet local tax requirements. While GnuCash has instructions to help synthesize records to match U. S. federal tax record requirements, that may not work in other jurisdictions. That is as far as I will go down that rabbit hole. On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 7:38 AM Kalpesh Patel wrote: > Hmmm. So I am a bit perplexed here. > > Disclaimer: I am a new-bee when it comes minutiae's of the investment > transactions so I might be wrong what I am about to state. Feel free to > correct me. > > If you note such factitious sale or closing of the transaction to preserve > the cost basis as you mentioned, are you not altering how long the security > is held which will impact capital gains reporting? If you alter in such a > way, I am not sure if that is same thing as transferring the security to > another account, at least not the way brokerages do so in the US amongst > them or within them. > > Would you not want to simply move the original buy/sell transaction by > re-pointing one of the split line item from the old account to new one? > This I would think keeps the entire transaction intact as-is which what the > transfer should be about and then you can have a zero valued transaction on > the date of the transfer itself which would have no impact on any reporting. > > > -Original Message- > From: David Carlson > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2023 1:08 PM > To: f...@mandfb.me.uk > Cc: AC ; gnucash-user@gnucash.org > Subject: Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds > > AC, > > Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the > original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they > were purchased. When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a sale > or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted accordingly, > even though there were no funds involved. Of course, that exact cost basis > needs to be added to the receiving account as if the shares were purchased > at the original price. This used to be described in great detail in one of > the help manuals, including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter realized > gains when an actual sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see if > those parts are still there. I know that if you do not do those things and > later run a trial balance or if you use the Investment Portfolio report, > you will quickly see the error of your ways. > > > > On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone wrote: > > > On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said: > > > > > I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. > > > The process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of > > > control from > > the > > > old to the new. > > > > > > In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under > > > each brokerage as such with their respective security/currency: > > > > > > Investments > > > -Brokerage 1 (currency) > > > --Fund A (security A) > > > --Fund B (security B) > > > -Brokerage 2 (currency) > > > --Fund A (security A) > > > --Fund C (security C) > > > --Fund D (security D) > > > > > > I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a > > > transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved > > > the funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look > > > like the simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is > unaffected): > > > > > > Investments > > > -Brokerage 1 (currency) > > > --Fund A (security A) > > > --Fund B (security B) > > > -Brokerage 3 (currency) > > > --Fund A (security A) > > > --Fund B (security B) > > > > > > The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual > > > funds, just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left > > > intact with the funds under Brok
Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
Hmmm. So I am a bit perplexed here. Disclaimer: I am a new-bee when it comes minutiae's of the investment transactions so I might be wrong what I am about to state. Feel free to correct me. If you note such factitious sale or closing of the transaction to preserve the cost basis as you mentioned, are you not altering how long the security is held which will impact capital gains reporting? If you alter in such a way, I am not sure if that is same thing as transferring the security to another account, at least not the way brokerages do so in the US amongst them or within them. Would you not want to simply move the original buy/sell transaction by re-pointing one of the split line item from the old account to new one? This I would think keeps the entire transaction intact as-is which what the transfer should be about and then you can have a zero valued transaction on the date of the transfer itself which would have no impact on any reporting. -Original Message- From: David Carlson Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2023 1:08 PM To: f...@mandfb.me.uk Cc: AC ; gnucash-user@gnucash.org Subject: Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds AC, Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they were purchased. When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a sale or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted accordingly, even though there were no funds involved. Of course, that exact cost basis needs to be added to the receiving account as if the shares were purchased at the original price. This used to be described in great detail in one of the help manuals, including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter realized gains when an actual sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see if those parts are still there. I know that if you do not do those things and later run a trial balance or if you use the Investment Portfolio report, you will quickly see the error of your ways. On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone wrote: > On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said: > > > I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. > > The process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of > > control from > the > > old to the new. > > > > In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under > > each brokerage as such with their respective security/currency: > > > > Investments > > -Brokerage 1 (currency) > > --Fund A (security A) > > --Fund B (security B) > > -Brokerage 2 (currency) > > --Fund A (security A) > > --Fund C (security C) > > --Fund D (security D) > > > > I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a > > transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved > > the funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look > > like the simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is > > unaffected): > > > > Investments > > -Brokerage 1 (currency) > > --Fund A (security A) > > --Fund B (security B) > > -Brokerage 3 (currency) > > --Fund A (security A) > > --Fund B (security B) > > > > The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual > > funds, just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left > > intact with the funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the > > funds under Brokerage 3 starting off with the incoming values. > > > > My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within > > Brokerage 1 Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 > > Fund A but that didn't create the transaction I expected. > > > > By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares > > at the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered > > -10 shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement > > from Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance > > correctly goes > to > > zero. > > > > Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a > > transaction that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and a > > balance of zero. > > I can manually enter the same number of shares in that partially > > empty transaction but why was my thought about the transfer > > incorrect? Should > it > > have not transferred those shares over as well? > > Did you work in split view? > > I can replicate what I think you are saying if I don't enter the > separate splits. > > If I go about it the obvious way (in split view) and enter balancing > amounts then it all works. > > However, I'm still on 2.6.21
Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
Since these funds have been held since before I started using Gnucash I can't really carry over any cost basis within it. I won't worry about it too much because I am not using the reports directly and I don't use Gnucash for my taxes. However, it appears it handled it anyway because the top-level brokerage account shows a value of zero now because all the underlying funds have zeroed out and the new brokerage account shows roughly the original value of the old account. Fortunately with ACATs (Automated Customer Account Transfer) all of the data and metadata transferred from one brokerage to the other. I'm able to see all of the historic basis values at the new brokerage site for all the funds. One less thing to worry about. On 2023-07-05 15:48, David Carlson wrote: AC, Yes, to keep GnuCash happy you want to transfer the cost basis as well as the securities to the new brokerage account. By entering the transactions as a sale at the same price that you purchased the the security and a new purchase at that same price, you are transferring the cost basis, Since that is not a real sale, there is no realized gain or loss to report to the taxman until you really do sell If you didn't transfer the cost, then GnuCash would think that the old account still had a cost for a now non-existent asset and the new account got the security free. You may have to provide that same information to your broker or custodian if they didn't get it automatically. On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 3:31 PM AC wrote: Answering two at once: Fred: No I did not work in split view. I was just working at the single account level. David: Are you saying I need to instruct GnuCash to treat the transfer as a sale even though there was no sale thus no realized gains/losses and no actual change in the cost basis? On 2023-07-05 10:07, David Carlson wrote: AC, Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they were purchased. When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a sale or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted accordingly, even though there were no funds involved. Of course, that exact cost basis needs to be added to the receiving account as if the shares were purchased at the original price. This used to be described in great detail in one of the help manuals, including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter realized gains when an actual sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see if those parts are still there. I know that if you do not do those things and later run a trial balance or if you use the Investment Portfolio report, you will quickly see the error of your ways. On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone wrote: On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said: I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. The process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of control from the old to the new. In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under each brokerage as such with their respective security/currency: Investments -Brokerage 1 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) -Brokerage 2 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund C (security C) --Fund D (security D) I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved the funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look like the simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is unaffected): Investments -Brokerage 1 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) -Brokerage 3 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual funds, just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left intact with the funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the funds under Brokerage 3 starting off with the incoming values. My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within Brokerage 1 Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 Fund A but that didn't create the transaction I expected. By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares at the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered -10 shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement from Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance correctly goes to zero. Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a transaction that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and a balance of zero. I can manually enter the same number of shares in that partially empty transaction but why was my thought about the transfer incorrect? Should it have not transferred those shares over as well? Did you work in split view? I can replicate what I think you are saying if I don't enter the separate splits. If I go about it the obvious way (in split view) and enter
Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
AC, Yes, to keep GnuCash happy you want to transfer the cost basis as well as the securities to the new brokerage account. By entering the transactions as a sale at the same price that you purchased the the security and a new purchase at that same price, you are transferring the cost basis, Since that is not a real sale, there is no realized gain or loss to report to the taxman until you really do sell If you didn't transfer the cost, then GnuCash would think that the old account still had a cost for a now non-existent asset and the new account got the security free. You may have to provide that same information to your broker or custodian if they didn't get it automatically. On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 3:31 PM AC wrote: > Answering two at once: > > Fred: No I did not work in split view. I was just working at the single > account level. > > David: Are you saying I need to instruct GnuCash to treat the transfer > as a sale even though there was no sale thus no realized gains/losses > and no actual change in the cost basis? > > On 2023-07-05 10:07, David Carlson wrote: > > AC, > > > > Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the > > original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they > > were purchased. When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a sale > > or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted > accordingly, > > even though there were no funds involved. Of course, that exact cost > basis > > needs to be added to the receiving account as if the shares were > purchased > > at the original price. This used to be described in great detail in one > of > > the help manuals, including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter > realized > > gains when an actual sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see if > > those parts are still there. I know that if you do not do those things > and > > later run a trial balance or if you use the Investment Portfolio report, > > you will quickly see the error of your ways. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone wrote: > > > >> On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said: > >> > >>> I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. The > >>> process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of control from > >> the > >>> old to the new. > >>> > >>> In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under each > >>> brokerage as such with their respective security/currency: > >>> > >>> Investments > >>> -Brokerage 1 (currency) > >>> --Fund A (security A) > >>> --Fund B (security B) > >>> -Brokerage 2 (currency) > >>> --Fund A (security A) > >>> --Fund C (security C) > >>> --Fund D (security D) > >>> > >>> I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a > >>> transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved the > >>> funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look like the > >>> simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is unaffected): > >>> > >>> Investments > >>> -Brokerage 1 (currency) > >>> --Fund A (security A) > >>> --Fund B (security B) > >>> -Brokerage 3 (currency) > >>> --Fund A (security A) > >>> --Fund B (security B) > >>> > >>> The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual > funds, > >>> just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left intact with the > >>> funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the funds under Brokerage > 3 > >>> starting off with the incoming values. > >>> > >>> My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within Brokerage > 1 > >>> Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 Fund A but that > >>> didn't create the transaction I expected. > >>> > >>> By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares at > >>> the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered -10 > >>> shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement from > >>> Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance correctly goes > >> to > >>> zero. > >>> > >>> Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a transaction > >>> that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and a balance of > zero. > >>> I can manually enter the same number of shares in that partially empty > >>> transaction but why was my thought about the transfer incorrect? Should > >> it > >>> have not transferred those shares over as well? > >> > >> Did you work in split view? > >> > >> I can replicate what I think you are saying if I don't enter the > separate > >> splits. > >> > >> If I go about it the obvious way (in split view) and enter balancing > >> amounts then it all works. > >> > >> However, I'm still on 2.6.21 ... > >> > >> ___ > >> gnucash-user mailing list > >> gnucash-user@gnucash.org > >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > >> - > >> Please remember to CC this list
Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
Answering two at once: Fred: No I did not work in split view. I was just working at the single account level. David: Are you saying I need to instruct GnuCash to treat the transfer as a sale even though there was no sale thus no realized gains/losses and no actual change in the cost basis? On 2023-07-05 10:07, David Carlson wrote: AC, Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they were purchased. When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a sale or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted accordingly, even though there were no funds involved. Of course, that exact cost basis needs to be added to the receiving account as if the shares were purchased at the original price. This used to be described in great detail in one of the help manuals, including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter realized gains when an actual sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see if those parts are still there. I know that if you do not do those things and later run a trial balance or if you use the Investment Portfolio report, you will quickly see the error of your ways. On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone wrote: On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said: I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. The process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of control from the old to the new. In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under each brokerage as such with their respective security/currency: Investments -Brokerage 1 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) -Brokerage 2 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund C (security C) --Fund D (security D) I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved the funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look like the simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is unaffected): Investments -Brokerage 1 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) -Brokerage 3 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual funds, just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left intact with the funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the funds under Brokerage 3 starting off with the incoming values. My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within Brokerage 1 Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 Fund A but that didn't create the transaction I expected. By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares at the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered -10 shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement from Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance correctly goes to zero. Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a transaction that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and a balance of zero. I can manually enter the same number of shares in that partially empty transaction but why was my thought about the transfer incorrect? Should it have not transferred those shares over as well? Did you work in split view? I can replicate what I think you are saying if I don't enter the separate splits. If I go about it the obvious way (in split view) and enter balancing amounts then it all works. However, I'm still on 2.6.21 ... ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
AC, Fred implied, but didn't elaborate on the point that the shares in the original brokerage account had a cost basis that was incurred when they were purchased. When you transfer them out, that is equivalent to a sale or closing transaction, and the cost basis should be adjusted accordingly, even though there were no funds involved. Of course, that exact cost basis needs to be added to the receiving account as if the shares were purchased at the original price. This used to be described in great detail in one of the help manuals, including the somewhat tricky procedure to enter realized gains when an actual sale happens but I haven't checked lately to see if those parts are still there. I know that if you do not do those things and later run a trial balance or if you use the Investment Portfolio report, you will quickly see the error of your ways. On Wed, Jul 5, 2023 at 11:33 AM Fred Bone wrote: > On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said: > > > I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. The > > process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of control from > the > > old to the new. > > > > In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under each > > brokerage as such with their respective security/currency: > > > > Investments > > -Brokerage 1 (currency) > > --Fund A (security A) > > --Fund B (security B) > > -Brokerage 2 (currency) > > --Fund A (security A) > > --Fund C (security C) > > --Fund D (security D) > > > > I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a > > transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved the > > funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look like the > > simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is unaffected): > > > > Investments > > -Brokerage 1 (currency) > > --Fund A (security A) > > --Fund B (security B) > > -Brokerage 3 (currency) > > --Fund A (security A) > > --Fund B (security B) > > > > The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual funds, > > just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left intact with the > > funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the funds under Brokerage 3 > > starting off with the incoming values. > > > > My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within Brokerage 1 > > Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 Fund A but that > > didn't create the transaction I expected. > > > > By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares at > > the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered -10 > > shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement from > > Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance correctly goes > to > > zero. > > > > Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a transaction > > that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and a balance of zero. > > I can manually enter the same number of shares in that partially empty > > transaction but why was my thought about the transfer incorrect? Should > it > > have not transferred those shares over as well? > > Did you work in split view? > > I can replicate what I think you are saying if I don't enter the separate > splits. > > If I go about it the obvious way (in split view) and enter balancing > amounts then it all works. > > However, I'm still on 2.6.21 ... > > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > -- David Carlson ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transferring mutual funds
On 04 July 2023 at 16:29, AC said: > I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. The > process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of control from the > old to the new. > > In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under each > brokerage as such with their respective security/currency: > > Investments > -Brokerage 1 (currency) > --Fund A (security A) > --Fund B (security B) > -Brokerage 2 (currency) > --Fund A (security A) > --Fund C (security C) > --Fund D (security D) > > I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a > transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved the > funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look like the > simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is unaffected): > > Investments > -Brokerage 1 (currency) > --Fund A (security A) > --Fund B (security B) > -Brokerage 3 (currency) > --Fund A (security A) > --Fund B (security B) > > The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual funds, > just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left intact with the > funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the funds under Brokerage 3 > starting off with the incoming values. > > My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within Brokerage 1 > Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 Fund A but that > didn't create the transaction I expected. > > By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares at > the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered -10 > shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement from > Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance correctly goes to > zero. > > Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a transaction > that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and a balance of zero. > I can manually enter the same number of shares in that partially empty > transaction but why was my thought about the transfer incorrect? Should it > have not transferred those shares over as well? Did you work in split view? I can replicate what I think you are saying if I don't enter the separate splits. If I go about it the obvious way (in split view) and enter balancing amounts then it all works. However, I'm still on 2.6.21 ... ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
[GNC] Transferring mutual funds
I recently moved some mutual funds from one brokerage to another. The process did not involve a sale, it was just a transfer of control from the old to the new. In my current books I keep mutual funds listed as subaccount under each brokerage as such with their respective security/currency: Investments -Brokerage 1 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) -Brokerage 2 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund C (security C) --Fund D (security D) I wanted to expand this to add the new brokerage and then perform a transfer of the funds from one to the other. Let's assume I moved the funds under Brokerage 1 to Brokerage 3. So the tree would look like the simplified version below (leaving out Brokerage 2 as it is unaffected): Investments -Brokerage 1 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) -Brokerage 3 (currency) --Fund A (security A) --Fund B (security B) The securities are the same because it's the same original mutual funds, just moved to another brokerage. The tree would be left intact with the funds under Brokerage 1 being zeroed out and the funds under Brokerage 3 starting off with the incoming values. My natural tendency was to create a transfer directly within Brokerage 1 Fund A that moved all the shares over to Brokerage 3 Fund A but that didn't create the transaction I expected. By example, I transferred Fund A on July 1 which contained 10 shares at the price of the shares on that day. So in Brokerage 1 I entered -10 shares with a total sell price of X as listed on the statement from Brokerage 1. The price is autocalculated and the balance correctly goes to zero. Looking inside the Brokerage 3 Fund A account I only see a transaction that has an amount in the buy column but no shares and a balance of zero. I can manually enter the same number of shares in that partially empty transaction but why was my thought about the transfer incorrect? Should it have not transferred those shares over as well? ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
