RE: beginning balance of income and expense accounts

[DaveC49]

Lori,

The Opening Balances account is an account of type equity. *It is always the
offset account for the opening balances of all other accounts.* 

Your procedure for starting to use Gnucash from the 30/9 is fine. The entry
for the opening balance for your income and expense accounts at 30/9 will be
something like:

   debit  credit
Income  
Equity:OpeningBalances

Expense   
Equity:Opening Balances

where  and  are the closing balances for income and expenses at 30/9
from your previous accounting program.  

More than likely thoug,h you will want to transfer the closing balances for
all the subaccounts of Income and Expense (and also Assets, Liabilities and
other Equity accounts you may have  at this date rather than just the Income
and Expense ( and other accounts) totals. In that case the entries labelled
Income and Expense would become e.g. Income:Sales  or Expenses:Wages and you
would create a similar entry for each subaccounts of each type of account. 

As someone mentioned earlier you can then run the Reports for Profit and
Loss and a Balance Sheet at 30/9 and these should match the similar reports
from your previous accounting system at that date. There is probably not
much point in entering the Jan-Sep data if you will still have access to the
other accounting system whenyou have to file your end of year financials.

If Microsoft Money has the ability to export data in QIF format (I'm not a
user of it) if you do want to import the Jan-Sep data it is possible to
import it into Gnucash. There is a FAQ on the Gnucash Wiki 
http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_How_do_I_import_my_data_from_Microsoft_Money.3F

 
. (CSV import is also possible - my understanding is that the new improved
csv importer is in the current 2.7 beta release and will be standard in the
next 3.0 stable release. If you do want to  use CSV it would probably be
wise to wait for the v3.0 release before importing data.)  If you search the
archives for this list you will probably find some other references to
importing from MS Money. 

Your Opening balances would then be those at 31/12 of the previous year. You
would have to delete the entries at 30/9 and replace them with the
appropriate entries for 31/12 of the previous year. If you do decide to do
this it is generally better to import something like a month at a time and
reconciling the balances to your previous set of accounts as it simplifies
finding and correcting any import errors which might occur.  Good luck

David Cousens



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Re: beginning balance of income and expense accounts

[Eric Siegerman]

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 09:34:58AM -0400, Mike or Penny Novack wrote:
> [...] it is usual to start a set of books JUST from the balance sheet
> with income and expense zero.

This is what I was going to suggest -- very tentatively and with
many caveats that I'm not an accountant.  Since Mike (I believe)
is one, I feel on much firmer ground amplifying on what he said:

 1. Start with opening-balance entries for the Balance Sheet
accounts -- but as of the previous year end, *not* as of the
cutover date (9-30 in your case) -- and opening balances of
zero for the Income Statement accounts

This is what your GnuCash books would have looked like on Jan. 1
if you had cut over to it then.

 2. For each Income and Expense account, enter one rolled-up
summary transaction.  Its date should be the cutover date,
and its amount should be the account's balance as of that
date.  All of these should be against some Asset account (see
below)

At this point, the Income and Expense balances will be correct as
of the cutover date, but the Assets and Liabilities will be
wildly out of whack, because your summary entries won't have even
tried to reflect whether, for example, that widget you bought at
Office Depot on July 15 came out of Petty Cash, from the Bank
account (via debit card), or from a Liability account (via credit
card).  So now:

 3. Make adjusting entries to move money among the Asset
and Liability accounts to bring them into agreement with
reality

If I were doing it, I'd probably create a dummy asset account
specifically for this purpose, to make clear that it doesn't
correspond to any real-world store of value.  In particular:
  - the dummy account would start step (2) with a balance of zero
(no opening balance, and no txn's yet)
  
  - after step (3), its balance should automagically end up back
at zero because everything just works out -- if that doesn't
happen, go back and look for errors

  - In between those points, the dummy account's balance doesn't
signify anything, so if it goes negative, no big deal

My non-accountant-ness means that I can only guess at how Equity
figures into all this.  Rather than do so -- possibly very
wrongly -- I'll leave that piece for someone else to please fill
in.

I also don't know whether the dummy-asset-account idea would
remotely pass muster among real accountants.

  - Eric
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Re: beginning balance of income and expense accounts

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 3/24/2018 4:56 PM, Buddha Buck wrote:

In general, I wouldn't bother entering starting balances for income and
expense accounts from before the period I am accounting for. Traditionally,
those accounts were temporary, and at the end of the accounting period the
balances would be reset to zero, being transferred to equity.
THAT, if you look closely, is the explanation for the (apparently odd) 
reduction in equity IF you were entering balances for income (and 
expense) at the start of the books. Accounts of type income and expense 
are temporary accounts of fundamental type equity. So if you had begun 
starting your books with balances in income and equity (say transferring 
in data from another method of accounting you should expect this result.


Yes, entering a balance for income WOULD reduce equity. Or rather, 
represents a TRANSFER between permanent equity and temporary equity << 
would be returned to equity by a close the books operation >>


That said, it is usual to start a set of books JUST from the balance 
sheet with income and expense zero.


Michael D Novack
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Re: beginning balance of income and expense accounts

[Maf. King]

On Saturday, 24 March 2018 22:36:29 GMT Stan Brown wrote:
> On 2018-03-24 16:56, Buddha Buck wrote:> In general, I wouldn't bother
> entering starting balances for income
> 
> > and expense accounts from before the period I am accounting for
> 
> I agree, and I'd go further: don't enter opening balances when creating
> _any_ account. Instead, enter the opening balances as a transaction as
> of the end of the previous year (or accounting period), with a balancing
> entry to your equity account. If you discover a mistake, you can always
> edit the transaction. But if you enter an opening balance on the New
> Account dialog, and later discover a mistake, you can't correct it --
> or, if you can, I've been unable to discover a way to do it.

Hi Stan,

there's nothing special about the opening balance transaction - it is editable 
in the register just like any other transaction.  Of course, if you've got the 
"read only after x days" option enabled, then that may prevent a modification.

HTH,
Maf.
 
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Re: beginning balance of income and expense accounts

[Dale Alspach]

I think you had the right idea. If your wages through Sept. 30 totals
$20,000 you would credit wages $20,000 and debit opening balance equity
$20,000. If your groceries expenses were $5000, debit grocery expense $5000
and credit opening balance equity $5,000. You are just establishing the
starting balance you are not entering real transactions.

Dale

On Mar 24, 2018 5:52 PM, <lnor...@mchsi.com> wrote:

Yes my accounting year started on jan 1.  So where I stand right now, is
all assets, liabilities, income and expense have the correct balance as of
9-30.  But they all require an offset account.  The problem is I've already
taken into consideration the offset account by using their balance as of
9-30.  For example, my wages were already offset into my Checking account,
and that balance has been updated as of 9-30.  I tried ignoring the Opening
Balance account net value just now, but it requires an offset account.

I so appreciate all of your ideas.  I think at this point, I'm going to
need to start Jan 1 of either 2017 or 2018.  Doesn't look like there is an
option to start mid-year.


-Original Message-
From: gnucash-user <gnucash-user-bounces+lnorden=mchsi@gnucash.org> On
Behalf Of Dale Alspach
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 5:34 PM
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: beginning balance of income and expense accounts

In that case your first entry should be income total from the start of the
accounting year to Sept. 30 and you should be doing the analogous thing for
all accounts. ( I am assuming that your accounting year started on January
1 or some other date prior to Sept. 30.) By doing this you will be
establishing the status of all accounts at the time you quit using
Microsoft Money. I suggest ignoring the Opening Balance account net value.
Instead concentrate on getting each account to have the correct balance as
of Sept. 30, i.e., to agree with Microsoft Money (up to any restructuring
of the accounts), before you begin entering post Sept. 30 transactions. I
know nothing about Microsoft Money but I assume you can get an
income-expense (profit-loss) report and a balance sheet as of Sept. 30.
Running the same reports in gnucash should help you check your starting
point.

Dale

On 03/24/2018 04:51 PM, lnor...@mchsi.com wrote:
> I wasn't starting at the beginning of the year.
> I stopped using Microsoft Money as of September, and have been fighting
Quicken but recently realized it doesn't use a double entry system.  so I
was hoping to start at 9-30 to be able to calculate net income for 2017.
I'd like to calculate 2017 net income if possible.
>
> When I set up my Income and Expense categories, it gave me the option to
establish an opening balance.  But offset Equity.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: gnucash-user
> <gnucash-user-bounces+lnorden=mchsi@gnucash.org> On Behalf Of Dave
> H
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 3:33 PM
> To: Adrien Monteleone <adrien.montele...@gmail.com>
> Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> Subject: Re: beginning balance of income and expense accounts
>
> Aha good question Adrien, mine also only has Asset and Liabilities in
> the Opening Balances :-)
>
> Cheers Dave H.
>
> On 25 March 2018 at 06:29, Adrien Monteleone
> <adrien.montele...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> How do you have an opening balance for income or expenses at the
>> beginning of the year? You haven’t earned or spent anything yet.
>>
>> You should be starting off with opening balances for assets and
>> liabilities. Then as you earn and spend, the net of those newer
>> entries are virtually calculated as ‘retained earnings/losses’ unless
>> or until you close the books with an official entry to equity. (which
>> is neither necessary, or necessarily desirable in Gnucash)
>>
>> Income should be balanced with debits to an asset(where the money
>> went to), not equity.
>> Expenses should be balanced with credits to an asset(where the money
>> came from), not equity.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Adrien
>>
>>> On Mar 24, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Lori Norden <lnor...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am starting Gnucash in the beginning of the year.  As I’m entering
>>> the
>> beginning balance for each income and expense account, a transfer is
>> being made to my Equity Opening Balance account.
>>>
>>> For income beginning balance entries – credits income; debits Equity
>> Opening Balance
>>> For expense beginning balance entries – debits expense, credits
>>> Equity
>> Opening Balance
>>>
>>> The problem is my Equity is reduced by the amount of net income I
>>> made
>> as of the beginning date, but should be increased.
>>>
>>> Should I be offsetting the beginning balances for

Re: beginning balance of income and expense accounts

[Dale Alspach]

In that case your first entry should be income total from the start of
the accounting year to Sept. 30 and you should be doing the analogous
thing for all accounts. ( I am assuming that your accounting year
started on January 1 or some other date prior to Sept. 30.) By doing
this you will be establishing the status of all accounts at the time you
quit using Microsoft Money. I suggest ignoring the Opening Balance
account net value. Instead concentrate on getting each account to have
the correct balance as of Sept. 30, i.e., to agree with Microsoft Money
(up to any restructuring of the accounts), before you begin entering
post Sept. 30 transactions. I know nothing about Microsoft Money but I
assume you can get an income-expense (profit-loss) report and a balance
sheet as of Sept. 30. Running the same reports in gnucash should help
you check your starting point.

Dale

On 03/24/2018 04:51 PM, lnor...@mchsi.com wrote:
> I wasn't starting at the beginning of the year.
> I stopped using Microsoft Money as of September, and have been fighting 
> Quicken but recently realized it doesn't use a double entry system.  so I was 
> hoping to start at 9-30 to be able to calculate net income for 2017.  I'd 
> like to calculate 2017 net income if possible.
>   
> When I set up my Income and Expense categories, it gave me the option to 
> establish an opening balance.  But offset Equity.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: gnucash-user <gnucash-user-bounces+lnorden=mchsi@gnucash.org> On 
> Behalf Of Dave H
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2018 3:33 PM
> To: Adrien Monteleone <adrien.montele...@gmail.com>
> Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> Subject: Re: beginning balance of income and expense accounts
> 
> Aha good question Adrien, mine also only has Asset and Liabilities in the 
> Opening Balances :-)
> 
> Cheers Dave H.
> 
> On 25 March 2018 at 06:29, Adrien Monteleone <adrien.montele...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> How do you have an opening balance for income or expenses at the 
>> beginning of the year? You haven’t earned or spent anything yet.
>>
>> You should be starting off with opening balances for assets and 
>> liabilities. Then as you earn and spend, the net of those newer 
>> entries are virtually calculated as ‘retained earnings/losses’ unless 
>> or until you close the books with an official entry to equity. (which 
>> is neither necessary, or necessarily desirable in Gnucash)
>>
>> Income should be balanced with debits to an asset(where the money went 
>> to), not equity.
>> Expenses should be balanced with credits to an asset(where the money 
>> came from), not equity.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Adrien
>>
>>> On Mar 24, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Lori Norden <lnor...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am starting Gnucash in the beginning of the year.  As I’m entering 
>>> the
>> beginning balance for each income and expense account, a transfer is 
>> being made to my Equity Opening Balance account.
>>>
>>> For income beginning balance entries – credits income; debits Equity
>> Opening Balance
>>> For expense beginning balance entries – debits expense, credits 
>>> Equity
>> Opening Balance
>>>
>>> The problem is my Equity is reduced by the amount of net income I 
>>> made
>> as of the beginning date, but should be increased.
>>>
>>> Should I be offsetting the beginning balances for income and expense 
>>> to
>> something other than Equity Opening Balance?  That’s what I thought 
>> the instructions indicated I should do.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>
>>> ___
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Re: beginning balance of income and expense accounts

[Buddha Buck]

In general, I wouldn't bother entering starting balances for income and
expense accounts from before the period I am accounting for. Traditionally,
those accounts were temporary, and at the end of the accounting period the
balances would be reset to zero, being transferred to equity. That isn't
necessary in GnuCash (because for reporting purposes GnuCash can calculate
what would have been transferred and include that in the reports), but it's
a good way to think of it in terms of fundamentals.

But to understand the situation you have, consider what happens when you
get income or pay expenses.

Normally, when you receive income (a credit), you also increase an asset (a
debit) by the same amount. My salary is direct-deposited, and my bank
balance goes up. If I put in a starting balance into an income account
(say, I'm starting using GnuCash on April 1st, and I'm putting in my YTD
salary), but don't increase an asset, then the money from that income no
longer exists, and it has to go somewhere. In your case, it's decreasing
your equity. It's effectively the same as getting a $100 bill and losing it
on the street. You record you got $100, but you don't have it anymore, so
your equity goes down by $100.

Expenses work just the opposite: when you pay an expense (a debit), you
also decrease an asset (a credit) by the same amount. I buy breakfast at
the local cafe by debit card, and my bank balance goes down. If I put in a
starting balance into an expense account (say, I'm starting using GnuCash
on April 1st, and I'm putting in my YTD breakfast payments), but don't
decrease an asset, then the money I spent never existed,and it has to come
from somewhere. In your case, it's increasing your equity. It's effectively
the same as eating a $100 dinner and having it comped by the restaurant.
You record you spend $100, but you didn't actually spend the money, so your
equity goes up by $100.

In the end, it all comes out as a wash: The reports will add your income
starting balance and subtract your expense starting balance as part of
computing your "retained earnings", which will be added to your equity. So
the income starting balance transaction will cancel itself out, as will the
expense starting balance transaction.



On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 4:10 PM Lori Norden  wrote:

> I am starting Gnucash in the beginning of the year.  As I’m entering the
> beginning balance for each income and expense account, a transfer is being
> made to my Equity Opening Balance account.
>
> For income beginning balance entries – credits income; debits Equity
> Opening Balance
> For expense beginning balance entries – debits expense, credits Equity
> Opening Balance
>
> The problem is my Equity is reduced by the amount of net income I made as
> of the beginning date, but should be increased.
>
> Should I be offsetting the beginning balances for income and expense to
> something other than Equity Opening Balance?  That’s what I thought the
> instructions indicated I should do.
>
> Thanks for your help
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
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Re: beginning balance of income and expense accounts

[Adrien Monteleone]

I first started to type that as my reply till I took a closer look at her 
entries. Equity increases with a credit, but you can’t have a credit to equity 
and a credit to income to increase both without one or more debits to other 
accounts to balance the transaction.

Though it doesn’t hurt to check that setting to ensure it is sane for your 
personal view of things.

When you think about what income and expenses are, they really can’t have 
opening balances. Technically you can, but then they’d function as ’negative 
entries’ with an effect of being ‘prior period’ corrections once all the math 
works out. It’s just too confusing to bother.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Mar 24, 2018, at 3:30 PM, Dave H  wrote:
> 
> Check your Preferences >> Accounts >> Reverse Balanced Accounts setting - I
> have mine set to "Credit Accounts" which reverses the balance in my
> Equity:Opening Balances account.
> 
> Cheers Dave H.
> 
> 
> On 25 March 2018 at 06:09, Lori Norden  wrote:
> 
>> I am starting Gnucash in the beginning of the year.  As I’m entering the
>> beginning balance for each income and expense account, a transfer is being
>> made to my Equity Opening Balance account.
>> 
>> For income beginning balance entries – credits income; debits Equity
>> Opening Balance
>> For expense beginning balance entries – debits expense, credits Equity
>> Opening Balance
>> 
>> The problem is my Equity is reduced by the amount of net income I made as
>> of the beginning date, but should be increased.
>> 
>> Should I be offsetting the beginning balances for income and expense to
>> something other than Equity Opening Balance?  That’s what I thought the
>> instructions indicated I should do.
>> 
>> Thanks for your help
>> 
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> 
>> ___
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Re: beginning balance of income and expense accounts

[Dave H]

Check your Preferences >> Accounts >> Reverse Balanced Accounts setting - I
have mine set to "Credit Accounts" which reverses the balance in my
Equity:Opening Balances account.

Cheers Dave H.


On 25 March 2018 at 06:09, Lori Norden  wrote:

> I am starting Gnucash in the beginning of the year.  As I’m entering the
> beginning balance for each income and expense account, a transfer is being
> made to my Equity Opening Balance account.
>
> For income beginning balance entries – credits income; debits Equity
> Opening Balance
> For expense beginning balance entries – debits expense, credits Equity
> Opening Balance
>
> The problem is my Equity is reduced by the amount of net income I made as
> of the beginning date, but should be increased.
>
> Should I be offsetting the beginning balances for income and expense to
> something other than Equity Opening Balance?  That’s what I thought the
> instructions indicated I should do.
>
> Thanks for your help
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> ___
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Re: beginning balance of income and expense accounts

[Adrien Monteleone]

How do you have an opening balance for income or expenses at the beginning of 
the year? You haven’t earned or spent anything yet.

You should be starting off with opening balances for assets and liabilities. 
Then as you earn and spend, the net of those newer entries are virtually 
calculated as ‘retained earnings/losses’ unless or until you close the books 
with an official entry to equity. (which is neither necessary, or necessarily 
desirable in Gnucash)

Income should be balanced with debits to an asset(where the money went to), not 
equity.
Expenses should be balanced with credits to an asset(where the money came 
from), not equity.

Regards,
Adrien

> On Mar 24, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Lori Norden  wrote:
> 
> I am starting Gnucash in the beginning of the year.  As I’m entering the 
> beginning balance for each income and expense account, a transfer is being 
> made to my Equity Opening Balance account.
> 
> For income beginning balance entries – credits income; debits Equity Opening 
> Balance
> For expense beginning balance entries – debits expense, credits Equity 
> Opening Balance
> 
> The problem is my Equity is reduced by the amount of net income I made as of 
> the beginning date, but should be increased.
> 
> Should I be offsetting the beginning balances for income and expense to 
> something other than Equity Opening Balance?  That’s what I thought the 
> instructions indicated I should do.
> 
> Thanks for your help
> 
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> 
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