Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
Happily I am not married to my accountant! Geoff Jankowski +33 6 22 93 00 53 +44 7770 584838 iPhone 5SE > On 5 Sep 2018, at 21:37, Stephen M. Butler wrote: > >> On 09/05/2018 12:05 PM, Christian Kluge wrote: >>> Am 05.09.2018 um 20:42 schrieb Geoff Jankowski via gnucash-user: >>> David >>> >>> I would love to agree with you but….. >>> >>> In standard journal notation cr is a debt and dr an asset. This is because >>> it is nothing to do with credit (+ve) and debit (-ve) in any sense (or >>> tense) but to do with a creditor (to whom we owe) and a debtor (who owes >>> us). Hence dr and cr relate to debtor and creditor and not to any form of >>> debit or credit. >>> >>> For example, if I take cash from the cash box and deposit it at the bank I >>> enter a cr to the cashbook and a dr to the bank account. >> Actually you should a transit account for the period in between taking >> and out of the cash box and that journal entry and the day the bank >> actually books this deposit on your banking statement. >> >>> Totally counterintuitive which is why accountancy is a black art and should >>> be banned. >>> > > Which is why I, as a software/database guy, just cringe when my wife, > the accountant, yells out, "You reversed the journal entries again!" > > I tried to reason it out know I got it wrong last time by trying to > reason it out from the time before when I also got it wrong. I'm no > longer sure that three rights make a left. I'm pretty sure that two > rights make a U turn of which I am doing a lot lately. >> Every form of accounting assumes that the debit side will give its value >> back one day as the original Italian formulations «deve dare» “shall >> give“ and «deve avere» “shall have”, everyone knows that’s never going >> to happen but still, nothing counterintuitive there. >> >> Kind regards >> >> >> Christian Kluge >> >> ___ >> gnucash-user mailing list >> gnucash-user@gnucash.org >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see >> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. >> - >> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > > > -- > Stephen M Butler, PMP, PSM > stephen.m.butle...@gmail.com > kg...@arrl.net > 253-350-0166 > --- > GnuPG Fingerprint: 8A25 9726 D439 758D D846 E5D4 282A 5477 0385 81D8 > > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
For what it's worth, both my oldish Macquarie Australian Dictionary and my even older Shorter Oxford agree that Dr is an abbreviation for debtor. Neither gives any etymology for the abbreviation and the Oxford doesn't give any historical reference for it. The online free Oxford dictionary https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/dr gives it as a abbreviation for debit without any further information. Peter On 6/09/2018 00:58, David Cousens wrote: Derek Latin past participles of creditum and debitum are debere and credere are a possible explanation. Another theory is the Dr stands for debit record and Cr credit record. Another is that Dr is from debtors and Cr is from creditors. I favour the first because Luca Pacciola who is often attributed (wrongly) with the first known treatise in 1494 (Summa de Arithmetica, Geometria, Proportioni et Proportionalita) which had a section on double entry accounting and formulated the first documented use of the accounting equation used the terms debere (to owe) and credere (to entrust) to describe the two sides of the basic accounting equation but there is also evidence that Pacciola used Per (from) and A (to) in journal entries. I don't know if any originals of Pacciola's original treatise have survived and most of the comments are from an English translation in 1633 where Handson used Dr from the English debtor. Another translator Geejsbeek in 1914 suggested Dr comes from "in dare" (give) and "in havere" (receive). Pacciola apparently learned his accounting from Arab traders in North Africa where his father was a merchant. Benedikt Kotruljevic in 1458 also described double entry accounting in a 1458 work on the Art of Trade published in Dubrovnik. I suspect both were describing methodology used by the Arab traders.There is also evidence that double entry might have been used in 10th century Muslim tax office but there is no definitive evidence. We will probably never know where the usage of the notation actually came from and the historians will continue to argue about it forever. David Cousens On Wed, 2018-09-05 at 09:59 -0400, Derek Atkins wrote: Hi All, I'm an Engineer by training; I've picked up a ton of accounting knowledge just by being involved here for the past few decades, but there's one thing I've seen recently that I honestly don't underdstand and would appreciate if a CPA or Accounting Historian could answer. Specifically, I've seen people show a transaction as: Dr ... / Cr ... So CR as an abbreviation for Credit makes sense to me (CRedit). But why is Debit abbreviated as DR? There is no "R" in DEBIT. So where does that come from? I would have expected it to be "Db". Just curious. -derek ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
On Wed, 2018-09-05 at 16:08 +0100, Colin Law wrote: > Wow, well now we know (or actually don't know), but we know we don't > know in great depth and detail :) Colin I think that pretty well sums up the arguments between various accountancy historians. David ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
Geoff On Wed, 2018-09-05 at 20:42 +0200, Geoff Jankowski via gnucash-user wrote: > For example, if I take cash from the cash box and deposit it at the bank I > enter a cr to the cashbook and a dr to the > bank account. I don't find the above really counterintuitive. It treats the cash book and bank account as though they were someone else holding your money for you, i.e. (who owes us). There is obviously an implicit assumption both on behalf of the cashbox and the bank that when we take money out (who we owe) that we are going to have to put it back at some point. We do that in a sense when we purchase an asset and enter the value of the asset as a debit entry in the account that records it or as a debit entry in an Expense account. Luca Pacciola, who was Leonardo DaVinci's maths tutor, was the first to make it less of a black art by spelling out the mathematical basis behind double entry accounting in a codified sense. My own background is in mathematics and physics but I did an accountancy degree several years before I retired, so once the accounting equation was laid out, what had previously been an arcane mystery while accounting for a business I ran, suddenly became clear to me. Jane Gleeson White's book, Double Entry: How the merchants of Venice shaped the modern world is an interesting read on the history. The recorded western historical literature on accounting goes back to the Babylonian cultures and what survives is mainly associated with recording tax collections and disbursements. Both the Japanese and Chinese also have recorded accounting systems very early on. Benedikta Kotruljevića's work, Book on the Art of Trade, originally written in 1458 in handwritten form in Croatia, but not published and more widely distributed until the mid 1500s (which is possibly why Pacciola received all the credit), has been recently re-relased in translation. Pacciola's treatise, really on mathematics not accounting specifically, was widely translated and distributed throughout Europe shortly after being originally released. David ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
On 09/05/2018 12:05 PM, Christian Kluge wrote: > Am 05.09.2018 um 20:42 schrieb Geoff Jankowski via gnucash-user: >> David >> >> I would love to agree with you but….. >> >> In standard journal notation cr is a debt and dr an asset. This is because >> it is nothing to do with credit (+ve) and debit (-ve) in any sense (or >> tense) but to do with a creditor (to whom we owe) and a debtor (who owes >> us). Hence dr and cr relate to debtor and creditor and not to any form of >> debit or credit. >> >> For example, if I take cash from the cash box and deposit it at the bank I >> enter a cr to the cashbook and a dr to the bank account. > Actually you should a transit account for the period in between taking > and out of the cash box and that journal entry and the day the bank > actually books this deposit on your banking statement. > >> Totally counterintuitive which is why accountancy is a black art and should >> be banned. >> Which is why I, as a software/database guy, just cringe when my wife, the accountant, yells out, "You reversed the journal entries again!" I tried to reason it out know I got it wrong last time by trying to reason it out from the time before when I also got it wrong. I'm no longer sure that three rights make a left. I'm pretty sure that two rights make a U turn of which I am doing a lot lately. > Every form of accounting assumes that the debit side will give its value > back one day as the original Italian formulations «deve dare» “shall > give“ and «deve avere» “shall have”, everyone knows that’s never going > to happen but still, nothing counterintuitive there. > > Kind regards > > > Christian Kluge > > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. -- Stephen M Butler, PMP, PSM stephen.m.butle...@gmail.com kg...@arrl.net 253-350-0166 --- GnuPG Fingerprint: 8A25 9726 D439 758D D846 E5D4 282A 5477 0385 81D8 ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
I thought that debit and credit only existed in double entry accounting and simply identified columns as either Left or Right? On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 2:43 PM Geoff Jankowski via gnucash-user < gnucash-user@gnucash.org> wrote: > David > > I would love to agree with you but….. > > In standard journal notation cr is a debt and dr an asset. This is > because it is nothing to do with credit (+ve) and debit (-ve) in any sense > (or tense) but to do with a creditor (to whom we owe) and a debtor (who > owes us). Hence dr and cr relate to debtor and creditor and not to any > form of debit or credit. > > For example, if I take cash from the cash box and deposit it at the bank I > enter a cr to the cashbook and a dr to the bank account. > > Totally counterintuitive which is why accountancy is a black art and > should be banned. > > I am also an engineer that has been a finance director for many years (but > that does not necessarily give me the right to write what is right). > > > > Geoff > +44 20 7100 1092 > +44 7770 58 48 38 > +33 5 46 97 13 89 > +33 6 22 93 00 53 > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5 Sep 2018, at 17:08, Colin Law wrote: > > > > Wow, well now we know (or actually don't know), but we know we don't > > know in great depth and detail :) > > > > Colin > > On Wed, 5 Sep 2018 at 16:01, David Cousens > wrote: > >> > >> Derek > >> > >> Latin past participles of creditum and debitum are debere and credere > are a possible explanation. Another theory is the > >> Dr stands for debit record and Cr credit record. Another is that Dr is > from debtors and Cr is from creditors. I favour > >> the first because Luca Pacciola who is often attributed (wrongly) with > the first known treatise in 1494 (Summa de > >> Arithmetica, Geometria, Proportioni et Proportionalita) which had a > section on double entry accounting and formulated > >> the first documented use of the accounting equation used the terms > debere (to owe) and credere (to entrust) to describe > >> the two sides of the basic accounting equation but there is also > evidence that Pacciola used Per (from) and A (to) in > >> journal entries. I don't know if any originals of Pacciola's original > treatise have survived and most of the comments > >> are from an English translation in 1633 where Handson used Dr from the > English debtor. Another translator Geejsbeek in > >> 1914 suggested Dr comes from "in dare" (give) and "in havere" > (receive). Pacciola apparently learned his accounting from > >> Arab traders in North Africa where his father was a merchant. Benedikt > Kotruljevic in 1458 also described double entry > >> accounting in a 1458 work on the Art of Trade published in Dubrovnik. I > suspect both were describing methodology used by > >> the Arab traders.There is also evidence that double entry might have > been used in 10th century Muslim tax office but > >> there is no definitive evidence. We will probably never know where the > usage of the notation actually came from and the > >> historians will continue to argue about it forever. > >> David Cousens > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, 2018-09-05 at 09:59 -0400, Derek Atkins wrote: > >>> Hi All, > >>> > >>> I'm an Engineer by training; I've picked up a ton of accounting > >>> knowledge just by being involved here for the past few decades, but > >>> there's one thing I've seen recently that I honestly don't underdstand > >>> and would appreciate if a CPA or Accounting Historian could answer. > >>> > >>> Specifically, I've seen people show a transaction as: > >>> > >>>Dr ... / Cr ... > >>> > >>> So CR as an abbreviation for Credit makes sense to me (CRedit). But > why > >>> is Debit abbreviated as DR? There is no "R" in DEBIT. So where does > >>> that come from? I would have expected it to be "Db". > >>> > >>> Just curious. > >>> > >>> -derek > >>> > >> ___ > >> gnucash-user mailing list > >> gnucash-user@gnucash.org > >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > >> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > >> - > >> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > >> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > > ___ > > gnucash-user mailing list > > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > > - > > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >
Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
Am 05.09.2018 um 20:42 schrieb Geoff Jankowski via gnucash-user: > David > > I would love to agree with you but….. > > In standard journal notation cr is a debt and dr an asset. This is because > it is nothing to do with credit (+ve) and debit (-ve) in any sense (or tense) > but to do with a creditor (to whom we owe) and a debtor (who owes us). Hence > dr and cr relate to debtor and creditor and not to any form of debit or > credit. > > For example, if I take cash from the cash box and deposit it at the bank I > enter a cr to the cashbook and a dr to the bank account. Actually you should a transit account for the period in between taking and out of the cash box and that journal entry and the day the bank actually books this deposit on your banking statement. > Totally counterintuitive which is why accountancy is a black art and should > be banned. Every form of accounting assumes that the debit side will give its value back one day as the original Italian formulations «deve dare» “shall give“ and «deve avere» “shall have”, everyone knows that’s never going to happen but still, nothing counterintuitive there. Kind regards Christian Kluge ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
On 9/5/2018 2:42 PM, Geoff Jankowski via gnucash-user wrote: David I would love to agree with you but….. In standard journal notation cr is a debt and dr an asset. This is because it is nothing to do with credit (+ve) and debit (-ve) in any sense (or tense) but to do with a creditor (to whom we owe) and a debtor (who owes us). Hence dr and cr relate to debtor and creditor and not to any form of debit or credit. Ah but it does, and will make sense once you realize that the origins of double entry goes back in time long enough that educated Europeans still used Latin for some purposes. Not "a debit" or "a credit" but Latin for "he owes" (me) and "he trusts" (me). Thus assets were debits (amounts somebody owed one) and liabilities credits (what one owed somebody). Michael D Novack ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
Hi Am 05.09.2018 um 16:58 schrieb David Cousens: > Derek > > […] the first documented use of the accounting equation used the terms debere > (to owe) and credere (to entrust) to describe > the two sides of the basic accounting equation but there is also evidence > that Pacciola used Per (from) and A (to) in > journal entries. He just used “Per” and “A” in journal entries. Apparently a similiar form of journal entry was also used in English just with words “By” and “To” which sounds nicer than saying credit and debit all the time. https://archive.org/stream/studiesinhistory00litt#page/223 > I don't know if any originals of Pacciola's original treatise have survived > […] > Another translator Geejsbeek in > 1914 suggested Dr comes from "in dare" (give) and "in havere" (receive). His translation, with facsimilies of Pacioli’s original can be read here: https://archive.org/details/ancientdoubleent00geijuoft Kind regards Christian Kluge ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
David I would love to agree with you but….. In standard journal notation cr is a debt and dr an asset. This is because it is nothing to do with credit (+ve) and debit (-ve) in any sense (or tense) but to do with a creditor (to whom we owe) and a debtor (who owes us). Hence dr and cr relate to debtor and creditor and not to any form of debit or credit. For example, if I take cash from the cash box and deposit it at the bank I enter a cr to the cashbook and a dr to the bank account. Totally counterintuitive which is why accountancy is a black art and should be banned. I am also an engineer that has been a finance director for many years (but that does not necessarily give me the right to write what is right). Geoff +44 20 7100 1092 +44 7770 58 48 38 +33 5 46 97 13 89 +33 6 22 93 00 53 > On 5 Sep 2018, at 17:08, Colin Law wrote: > > Wow, well now we know (or actually don't know), but we know we don't > know in great depth and detail :) > > Colin > On Wed, 5 Sep 2018 at 16:01, David Cousens wrote: >> >> Derek >> >> Latin past participles of creditum and debitum are debere and credere are a >> possible explanation. Another theory is the >> Dr stands for debit record and Cr credit record. Another is that Dr is from >> debtors and Cr is from creditors. I favour >> the first because Luca Pacciola who is often attributed (wrongly) with the >> first known treatise in 1494 (Summa de >> Arithmetica, Geometria, Proportioni et Proportionalita) which had a section >> on double entry accounting and formulated >> the first documented use of the accounting equation used the terms debere >> (to owe) and credere (to entrust) to describe >> the two sides of the basic accounting equation but there is also evidence >> that Pacciola used Per (from) and A (to) in >> journal entries. I don't know if any originals of Pacciola's original >> treatise have survived and most of the comments >> are from an English translation in 1633 where Handson used Dr from the >> English debtor. Another translator Geejsbeek in >> 1914 suggested Dr comes from "in dare" (give) and "in havere" (receive). >> Pacciola apparently learned his accounting from >> Arab traders in North Africa where his father was a merchant. Benedikt >> Kotruljevic in 1458 also described double entry >> accounting in a 1458 work on the Art of Trade published in Dubrovnik. I >> suspect both were describing methodology used by >> the Arab traders.There is also evidence that double entry might have been >> used in 10th century Muslim tax office but >> there is no definitive evidence. We will probably never know where the usage >> of the notation actually came from and the >> historians will continue to argue about it forever. >> David Cousens >> >> >> >> On Wed, 2018-09-05 at 09:59 -0400, Derek Atkins wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I'm an Engineer by training; I've picked up a ton of accounting >>> knowledge just by being involved here for the past few decades, but >>> there's one thing I've seen recently that I honestly don't underdstand >>> and would appreciate if a CPA or Accounting Historian could answer. >>> >>> Specifically, I've seen people show a transaction as: >>> >>>Dr ... / Cr ... >>> >>> So CR as an abbreviation for Credit makes sense to me (CRedit). But why >>> is Debit abbreviated as DR? There is no "R" in DEBIT. So where does >>> that come from? I would have expected it to be "Db". >>> >>> Just curious. >>> >>> -derek >>> >> ___ >> gnucash-user mailing list >> gnucash-user@gnucash.org >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see >> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. >> - >> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
Wow, well now we know (or actually don't know), but we know we don't know in great depth and detail :) Colin On Wed, 5 Sep 2018 at 16:01, David Cousens wrote: > > Derek > > Latin past participles of creditum and debitum are debere and credere are a > possible explanation. Another theory is the > Dr stands for debit record and Cr credit record. Another is that Dr is from > debtors and Cr is from creditors. I favour > the first because Luca Pacciola who is often attributed (wrongly) with the > first known treatise in 1494 (Summa de > Arithmetica, Geometria, Proportioni et Proportionalita) which had a section > on double entry accounting and formulated > the first documented use of the accounting equation used the terms debere (to > owe) and credere (to entrust) to describe > the two sides of the basic accounting equation but there is also evidence > that Pacciola used Per (from) and A (to) in > journal entries. I don't know if any originals of Pacciola's original > treatise have survived and most of the comments > are from an English translation in 1633 where Handson used Dr from the > English debtor. Another translator Geejsbeek in > 1914 suggested Dr comes from "in dare" (give) and "in havere" (receive). > Pacciola apparently learned his accounting from > Arab traders in North Africa where his father was a merchant. Benedikt > Kotruljevic in 1458 also described double entry > accounting in a 1458 work on the Art of Trade published in Dubrovnik. I > suspect both were describing methodology used by > the Arab traders.There is also evidence that double entry might have been > used in 10th century Muslim tax office but > there is no definitive evidence. We will probably never know where the usage > of the notation actually came from and the > historians will continue to argue about it forever. > David Cousens > > > > On Wed, 2018-09-05 at 09:59 -0400, Derek Atkins wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I'm an Engineer by training; I've picked up a ton of accounting > > knowledge just by being involved here for the past few decades, but > > there's one thing I've seen recently that I honestly don't underdstand > > and would appreciate if a CPA or Accounting Historian could answer. > > > > Specifically, I've seen people show a transaction as: > > > > Dr ... / Cr ... > > > > So CR as an abbreviation for Credit makes sense to me (CRedit). But why > > is Debit abbreviated as DR? There is no "R" in DEBIT. So where does > > that come from? I would have expected it to be "Db". > > > > Just curious. > > > > -derek > > > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
Derek Latin past participles of creditum and debitum are debere and credere are a possible explanation. Another theory is the Dr stands for debit record and Cr credit record. Another is that Dr is from debtors and Cr is from creditors. I favour the first because Luca Pacciola who is often attributed (wrongly) with the first known treatise in 1494 (Summa de Arithmetica, Geometria, Proportioni et Proportionalita) which had a section on double entry accounting and formulated the first documented use of the accounting equation used the terms debere (to owe) and credere (to entrust) to describe the two sides of the basic accounting equation but there is also evidence that Pacciola used Per (from) and A (to) in journal entries. I don't know if any originals of Pacciola's original treatise have survived and most of the comments are from an English translation in 1633 where Handson used Dr from the English debtor. Another translator Geejsbeek in 1914 suggested Dr comes from "in dare" (give) and "in havere" (receive). Pacciola apparently learned his accounting from Arab traders in North Africa where his father was a merchant. Benedikt Kotruljevic in 1458 also described double entry accounting in a 1458 work on the Art of Trade published in Dubrovnik. I suspect both were describing methodology used by the Arab traders.There is also evidence that double entry might have been used in 10th century Muslim tax office but there is no definitive evidence. We will probably never know where the usage of the notation actually came from and the historians will continue to argue about it forever. David Cousens On Wed, 2018-09-05 at 09:59 -0400, Derek Atkins wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm an Engineer by training; I've picked up a ton of accounting > knowledge just by being involved here for the past few decades, but > there's one thing I've seen recently that I honestly don't underdstand > and would appreciate if a CPA or Accounting Historian could answer. > > Specifically, I've seen people show a transaction as: > > Dr ... / Cr ... > > So CR as an abbreviation for Credit makes sense to me (CRedit). But why > is Debit abbreviated as DR? There is no "R" in DEBIT. So where does > that come from? I would have expected it to be "Db". > > Just curious. > > -derek > ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] [OT] Why is Debit abbreviated Dr?
Debtor = dr Creditor = cr Geoff +44 20 7100 1092 +44 7770 58 48 38 +33 5 46 97 13 89 +33 6 22 93 00 53 > On 5 Sep 2018, at 15:59, Derek Atkins wrote: > > Hi All, > > I'm an Engineer by training; I've picked up a ton of accounting > knowledge just by being involved here for the past few decades, but > there's one thing I've seen recently that I honestly don't underdstand > and would appreciate if a CPA or Accounting Historian could answer. > > Specifically, I've seen people show a transaction as: > >Dr ... / Cr ... > > So CR as an abbreviation for Credit makes sense to me (CRedit). But why > is Debit abbreviated as DR? There is no "R" in DEBIT. So where does > that come from? I would have expected it to be "Db". > > Just curious. > > -derek > > -- > Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory > Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) > URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH > warl...@mit.eduPGP key available > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
