RE: Tracking Primary Residences

[Leo Bolta]

Adrien, thanks for posting your recommendation again, as I did not see your
original post due to my mix-up in signing up to the email distribution list.
I've now tried implementing as per your recommendation, by treating the
unrealized gain as an equity rather than income and it worked out great!  My
charts now look normal and the valuation fluctuations only showing up in the
Balance Sheet. I plan to run conservation updates on resident property
valuations maybe once a year, at about 3/4's the "ball-park" value just to
stay on the conservative side things. 

Best regards,

Leo  



-Original Message-
From: gnucash-user
[mailto:gnucash-user-bounces+lbolta=rogers@gnucash.org] On Behalf Of
Adrien Monteleone
Sent: June-26-17 11:21 AM
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: Tracking Primary Residences

Leo,

As I noted in the original thread you posted on this topic, unrealized gains
should not be an income account, it should be an equity account. It should
not reflect on your income figures or mess with your graphs at all.

When you actually sell and have a firm valuation, then you can convert the
unrealized gain into a realized gain, which IS an income account.

The only 'traditional' report you should see Unrealized Gains on, is the
Balance Sheet in the Equity section.


Regards,
Adrien

> On Jun 25, 2017, at 9:13 AM, Leo Bolta <lbo...@rogers.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Although I understand it does not seem to be standard accounting 
> practice to track appreciation on a condo which is a principal 
> residence, I can't help but want to implement incorporating very 
> conservative periodic values into GnuCash, possibly as much as twice a 
> year as the condo represents a considerable percentage of my net
worth/portfolio.
> 
> My attempt at treating the condo as a fixed asset with an unrealized 
> capital gain aspect was to incorporate the set-up as per 'Example 11.3 of
Chapter
> 11" in the GnuCash manual.   However because of a quite a hot
> real-estate/condo market, my unrealized gains are now so significant 
> that the previous unrealized gain dwarfs the fixed income amounts to 
> the point that the bar charts such as "Income/Expense Chart" displays 
> a skyscraper sized income bar in the graph, next to a very miniscule 
> bungalow sized bar representing my expenses. Prior to implementing the 
> new set-up, the Income vs. Expense chart was much more meaningful as a 
> gage to monitor tangible income against real expenses. I've even tried 
> taking the total bi-annual gain and evenly distributing the total into 
> the past six months but the reports still don't have the meaningful
representation it once had for me.
> 
> Because the condo is my principal residence which I don't have any 
> intention of selling anytime soon, is there a way to account for 
> periodic appreciated values, without it effecting income in such a 
> profound way when the gains are in reality mere paper gains? I am also 
> not so concerned about the eventual capital gain, since the sale of a 
> primary residence are not treated as a taxable gain here in Canada.
> 
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Re: Tracking Primary Residences

[Adrien Monteleone]

Leo,

As I noted in the original thread you posted on this topic, unrealized gains 
should not be an income account, it should be an equity account. It should not 
reflect on your income figures or mess with your graphs at all.

When you actually sell and have a firm valuation, then you can convert the 
unrealized gain into a realized gain, which IS an income account.

The only ‘traditional’ report you should see Unrealized Gains on, is the 
Balance Sheet in the Equity section.


Regards,
Adrien

> On Jun 25, 2017, at 9:13 AM, Leo Bolta  wrote:
> 
> 
> Although I understand it does not seem to be standard accounting practice to
> track appreciation on a condo which is a principal residence, I can't help
> but want to implement incorporating very conservative periodic values into
> GnuCash, possibly as much as twice a year as the condo represents a
> considerable percentage of my net worth/portfolio.  
> 
> My attempt at treating the condo as a fixed asset with an unrealized capital
> gain aspect was to incorporate the set-up as per 'Example 11.3 of Chapter
> 11" in the GnuCash manual.   However because of a quite a hot
> real-estate/condo market, my unrealized gains are now so significant that
> the previous unrealized gain dwarfs the fixed income amounts to the point
> that the bar charts such as "Income/Expense Chart" displays a skyscraper
> sized income bar in the graph, next to a very miniscule bungalow sized bar
> representing my expenses. Prior to implementing the new set-up, the Income
> vs. Expense chart was much more meaningful as a gage to monitor tangible
> income against real expenses. I've even tried taking the total bi-annual
> gain and evenly distributing the total into the past six months but the
> reports still don't have the meaningful representation it once had for me.  
> 
> Because the condo is my principal residence which I don't have any intention
> of selling anytime soon, is there a way to account for periodic appreciated
> values, without it effecting income in such a profound way when the gains
> are in reality mere paper gains? I am also not so concerned about the
> eventual capital gain, since the sale of a primary residence are not treated
> as a taxable gain here in Canada. 
> 
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Re: Tracking Primary Residences

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 6/25/2017 5:07 PM, Leo Bolta wrote:

Excellent!  I'll try tracking the property with periodic valuations in on a
"off books" set of books as you suggest.  Question: I assume that I'll still
need to enter an "Opening Balance" of the property in my standard booking
system, and so by what calculation shall I enter that value?  Shall I enter
the opening balance with an estimate of it's "effective book value" of when
I started GnuCash, which is about 6 months ago OR shall I go back about 6
years and enter an estimate of it's original purchase price, tallied
together with premove-in upgrades and closing costs?

Leo
That's not a gnucash question and with the caveat that I am NOT 
"qualified" as an accountant or tax advisor and that this question is 
really related to jurisdiction - you should enter the original basis 
+ closing costs and then adjust for upgrades that ARE allowed (by tax 
code) to be included in the basis because THAT is what you will need to 
figure eventual capital gains (if sold for more and proceeds not going 
toward a replacement house of equal or greater cost). But again that is 
all "tax stuff" which as I said I am NOT qualified to advise you about 
so consult a professional or go by your own reading/understanding of the 
tax codes.


Michael D Novack
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Re: Tracking Primary Residences

[David T. via gnucash-user]

Leo,

I am sorry you were having trouble getting messages to the list. I am glad you 
got that straightened out.

As to the point of tracking the value of your house, I’ll begin by saying I am 
not an accountant. However, I *have* been through the precise situation you 
describe, and I found out through experience the pointlessness of counting the 
value of my primary residence until it came time to sell that house. All of the 
interim values I entered as unrealized gains had no relation to the amount of 
money we ultimately received. The lesson I learned was that all that effort 
served only to make me feel worried/eager about how much value my house had 
lost/gained—with no actual effect on the final selling amount (which was 
neither as much nor as little as I had figured). 

This, coupled with the fact that you were asking how to prevent these numbers 
from skewing your reports, led me to suggest that you not track them in 
GnuCash. I see from your other reply that you’ve chosen that path anyhow.

Best,
David

> On Jun 25, 2017, at 11:18 PM, Leo Bolta <lbo...@rogers.com> wrote:
> 
> My sincere apologies if there were duplicates of this email previously sent.
> I was having some problems getting back onto the list after delisting a few
> months ago.  My test that I was actually back on board, was to also receive
> a copy in my email in-box.  The email sent this morning to the list, was the
> first in which I actually got a copy back, which indicated to me that this
> attempt was finally successful.
> 
> Why to track a primary residence may not make sense to an accountant but
> everyone's situation may be different.  For example, one may live in a peak
> demand area and it may one day prove to be a timely decision to moving into
> less popular area, where prices are not so hyped and geared more towards a
> lifestyle that one may prefer.  I acknowledged in my email, that it was not
> a standard practice to track primary residence, but I don't necessarily
> follow standards and was hoping to get a reply from someone who may have
> thought a similar situation through.
> 
> Leo  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: David T. [mailto:sunfis...@yahoo.com] 
> Sent: June-25-17 11:40 AM
> To: lbo...@rogers.com
> Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> Subject: Re: Tracking Primary Residences
> 
> Leo,
> 
> First, I don't understand why you sent your email verbatim again to the
> list.
> 
> Next, it seems to me that if you didn't track the unrealized gains on your
> condo (which are not actually real, BTW), then you wouldn't have a problem
> with the graphing of the non-existent gains. 
> 
> While it may feel good to imagine how much wealth is accruing to your
> investment, the reality is that none of it counts until you have a buyer who
> has paid you for the asset. SInce you claim to want to be staying in your
> house-and that you don't care about the eventual capital gain, then why
> track it at all?
> 
> David
> 
>> On Jun 25, 2017, at 7:13 PM, Leo Bolta <lbo...@rogers.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Although I understand it does not seem to be standard accounting 
>> practice to track appreciation on a condo which is a principal 
>> residence, I can't help but want to implement incorporating very 
>> conservative periodic values into GnuCash, possibly as much as twice a 
>> year as the condo represents a considerable percentage of my net
> worth/portfolio.
>> 
>> My attempt at treating the condo as a fixed asset with an unrealized 
>> capital gain aspect was to incorporate the set-up as per 'Example 11.3 of
> Chapter
>> 11" in the GnuCash manual.   However because of a quite a hot
>> real-estate/condo market, my unrealized gains are now so significant 
>> that the previous unrealized gain dwarfs the fixed income amounts to 
>> the point that the bar charts such as "Income/Expense Chart" displays 
>> a skyscraper sized income bar in the graph, next to a very miniscule 
>> bungalow sized bar representing my expenses. Prior to implementing the 
>> new set-up, the Income vs. Expense chart was much more meaningful as a 
>> gage to monitor tangible income against real expenses. I've even tried 
>> taking the total bi-annual gain and evenly distributing the total into 
>> the past six months but the reports still don't have the meaningful
> representation it once had for me.
>> 
>> Because the condo is my principal residence which I don't have any 
>> intention of selling anytime soon, is there a way to account for 
>> periodic appreciated values, without it effecting income in such a 
>> profound way when the gains are in reality mere paper gains? I am also 
>> not so concerned about the eventu

Re: Tracking Primary Residences

[John Ralls]

An alternative to booking the unrealized gain as in chapter 11 is to create a 
commodity for the condo in the Security Editor and then price the commodity in 
the Price Editor. That way the current supposed market value of the condo shows 
up on the Accounts page and in reports if you set the price source to “Nearest 
in time” (the default in 2.6.16) or “Most Recent” but not “Average Cost” but 
there’s no income to mess up your P report or budget.

Regards,
John Ralls


> On Jun 25, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Leo Bolta <lbo...@rogers.com> wrote:
> 
> Excellent!  I'll try tracking the property with periodic valuations in on a
> "off books" set of books as you suggest.  Question: I assume that I'll still
> need to enter an "Opening Balance" of the property in my standard booking
> system, and so by what calculation shall I enter that value?  Shall I enter
> the opening balance with an estimate of it's "effective book value" of when
> I started GnuCash, which is about 6 months ago OR shall I go back about 6
> years and enter an estimate of it's original purchase price, tallied
> together with premove-in upgrades and closing costs?
> 
> Leo 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: gnucash-user
> [mailto:gnucash-user-bounces+lbolta=rogers@gnucash.org] On Behalf Of
> Mike or Penny Novack
> Sent: June-25-17 3:37 PM
> To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> Subject: Re: Tracking Primary Residences
> 
> On 6/25/2017 2:18 PM, Leo Bolta wrote:
> 
>> Why to track a primary residence may not make sense to an accountant 
>> but everyone's situation may be different.  For example, one may live 
>> in a peak demand area and it may one day prove to be a timely decision 
>> to moving into less popular area, where prices are not so hyped and 
>> geared more towards a lifestyle that one may prefer.  I acknowledged 
>> in my email, that it was not a standard practice to track primary 
>> residence, but I don't necessarily follow standards and was hoping to 
>> get a reply from someone who may have thought a similar situation through.
> 
> The purpose of accounting is to provide financial information (including for
> decision making) so something like this CAN make sense. So let's look at the
> alternatives. It appears that a great deal of your "effective" net worth (as
> opposed to "book" net worth) would be the capital appreciation of this
> property. How can you track that? << an aside here --- this sort of thing
> might in fact be very important and in BOTH directions and it most certainly
> affects "estate planning" where you might have to know if the value of the
> estate will be above some tax threshold or special probate requirements. >>
> 
> Your confusion is in assuming that has to all be done in one set of gnucash
> books. Gnucash will let you keep several sets of books. You can also combine
> information form gnucash with information from other methods.
> 
> Might I suggest a set of books under gnucash that would be standard. 
> That would give your net worth EXCLUDING the possible eventual gain on the
> property. Then you could have an "off books" set of books (using gnucash or
> whatever*) to track JUST the eventual gain on this property. 
> To obtain your "effective net worth" add the two.
> 
> Michael D Novack
> 
> ares, etc. >>
> 
> * In this case, I personally wouldn't bother using gnucash for this, since
> likely only an annually adjusted figure and an estimate in any case. But I
> personally do use gnucash for some "off books" accounting when has enough
> transactions to make an actual accounting application useful. Example: I
> have a home solar system. Treated as an "investment", how is it performing?
> << the "entity" borrowed funds from us. It has income from sources like
> transfer of credits to our personal electric bill, sale of SRECs, tax
> credits against our personal taxes, etc. It has expenses like depreciation,
> imputed portion of insurance cost and tax cost, interest on the loan
> balance, etc. and from profit makes payments against the loan principle ---
> QUESTIONS: IS this virtual entity able to pay off the loan at the assumed
> rate of interest during the lifetime of the system? Will it even be able to
> make "dividend payments" once the loan has been paid off >>
> 
> 
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Re: Tracking Primary Residences

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 6/25/2017 2:18 PM, Leo Bolta wrote:


Why to track a primary residence may not make sense to an accountant but
everyone's situation may be different.  For example, one may live in a peak
demand area and it may one day prove to be a timely decision to moving into
less popular area, where prices are not so hyped and geared more towards a
lifestyle that one may prefer.  I acknowledged in my email, that it was not
a standard practice to track primary residence, but I don't necessarily
follow standards and was hoping to get a reply from someone who may have
thought a similar situation through.


The purpose of accounting is to provide financial information (including 
for decision making) so something like this CAN make sense. So let's 
look at the alternatives. It appears that a great deal of your 
"effective" net worth (as opposed to "book" net worth) would be the 
capital appreciation of this property. How can you track that? << an 
aside here --- this sort of thing might in fact be very important and in 
BOTH directions and it most certainly affects "estate planning" where 
you might have to know if the value of the estate will be above some tax 
threshold or special probate requirements. >>


Your confusion is in assuming that has to all be done in one set of 
gnucash books. Gnucash will let you keep several sets of books. You can 
also combine information form gnucash with information from other methods.


Might I suggest a set of books under gnucash that would be standard. 
That would give your net worth EXCLUDING the possible eventual gain on 
the property. Then you could have an "off books" set of books (using 
gnucash or whatever*) to track JUST the eventual gain on this property. 
To obtain your "effective net worth" add the two.


Michael D Novack

ares, etc. >>

* In this case, I personally wouldn't bother using gnucash for this, 
since likely only an annually adjusted figure and an estimate in any 
case. But I personally do use gnucash for some "off books" accounting 
when has enough transactions to make an actual accounting application 
useful. Example: I have a home solar system. Treated as an "investment", 
how is it performing? << the "entity" borrowed funds from us. It has 
income from sources like transfer of credits to our personal electric 
bill, sale of SRECs, tax credits against our personal taxes, etc. It has 
expenses like depreciation, imputed portion of insurance cost and tax 
cost, interest on the loan balance, etc. and from profit makes payments 
against the loan principle --- QUESTIONS: IS this virtual entity able to 
pay off the loan at the assumed rate of interest during the lifetime of 
the system? Will it even be able to make "dividend payments" once the 
loan has been paid off >>



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RE: Tracking Primary Residences

[Leo Bolta]

My sincere apologies if there were duplicates of this email previously sent.
I was having some problems getting back onto the list after delisting a few
months ago.  My test that I was actually back on board, was to also receive
a copy in my email in-box.  The email sent this morning to the list, was the
first in which I actually got a copy back, which indicated to me that this
attempt was finally successful.

Why to track a primary residence may not make sense to an accountant but
everyone's situation may be different.  For example, one may live in a peak
demand area and it may one day prove to be a timely decision to moving into
less popular area, where prices are not so hyped and geared more towards a
lifestyle that one may prefer.  I acknowledged in my email, that it was not
a standard practice to track primary residence, but I don't necessarily
follow standards and was hoping to get a reply from someone who may have
thought a similar situation through.

Leo  

-Original Message-
From: David T. [mailto:sunfis...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: June-25-17 11:40 AM
To: lbo...@rogers.com
Cc: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: Tracking Primary Residences

Leo,

First, I don't understand why you sent your email verbatim again to the
list.

Next, it seems to me that if you didn't track the unrealized gains on your
condo (which are not actually real, BTW), then you wouldn't have a problem
with the graphing of the non-existent gains. 

While it may feel good to imagine how much wealth is accruing to your
investment, the reality is that none of it counts until you have a buyer who
has paid you for the asset. SInce you claim to want to be staying in your
house-and that you don't care about the eventual capital gain, then why
track it at all?

David

> On Jun 25, 2017, at 7:13 PM, Leo Bolta <lbo...@rogers.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Although I understand it does not seem to be standard accounting 
> practice to track appreciation on a condo which is a principal 
> residence, I can't help but want to implement incorporating very 
> conservative periodic values into GnuCash, possibly as much as twice a 
> year as the condo represents a considerable percentage of my net
worth/portfolio.
> 
> My attempt at treating the condo as a fixed asset with an unrealized 
> capital gain aspect was to incorporate the set-up as per 'Example 11.3 of
Chapter
> 11" in the GnuCash manual.   However because of a quite a hot
> real-estate/condo market, my unrealized gains are now so significant 
> that the previous unrealized gain dwarfs the fixed income amounts to 
> the point that the bar charts such as "Income/Expense Chart" displays 
> a skyscraper sized income bar in the graph, next to a very miniscule 
> bungalow sized bar representing my expenses. Prior to implementing the 
> new set-up, the Income vs. Expense chart was much more meaningful as a 
> gage to monitor tangible income against real expenses. I've even tried 
> taking the total bi-annual gain and evenly distributing the total into 
> the past six months but the reports still don't have the meaningful
representation it once had for me.
> 
> Because the condo is my principal residence which I don't have any 
> intention of selling anytime soon, is there a way to account for 
> periodic appreciated values, without it effecting income in such a 
> profound way when the gains are in reality mere paper gains? I am also 
> not so concerned about the eventual capital gain, since the sale of a 
> primary residence are not treated as a taxable gain here in Canada.
> 
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> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
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> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
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Re: Tracking Primary Residences

[David T. via gnucash-user]

Leo,

First, I don’t understand why you sent your email verbatim again to the list.

Next, it seems to me that if you didn’t track the unrealized gains on your 
condo (which are not actually real, BTW), then you wouldn’t have a problem with 
the graphing of the non-existent gains. 

While it may feel good to imagine how much wealth is accruing to your 
investment, the reality is that none of it counts until you have a buyer who 
has paid you for the asset. SInce you claim to want to be staying in your 
house—and that you don’t care about the eventual capital gain, then why track 
it at all?

David

> On Jun 25, 2017, at 7:13 PM, Leo Bolta  wrote:
> 
> 
> Although I understand it does not seem to be standard accounting practice to
> track appreciation on a condo which is a principal residence, I can't help
> but want to implement incorporating very conservative periodic values into
> GnuCash, possibly as much as twice a year as the condo represents a
> considerable percentage of my net worth/portfolio.  
> 
> My attempt at treating the condo as a fixed asset with an unrealized capital
> gain aspect was to incorporate the set-up as per 'Example 11.3 of Chapter
> 11" in the GnuCash manual.   However because of a quite a hot
> real-estate/condo market, my unrealized gains are now so significant that
> the previous unrealized gain dwarfs the fixed income amounts to the point
> that the bar charts such as "Income/Expense Chart" displays a skyscraper
> sized income bar in the graph, next to a very miniscule bungalow sized bar
> representing my expenses. Prior to implementing the new set-up, the Income
> vs. Expense chart was much more meaningful as a gage to monitor tangible
> income against real expenses. I've even tried taking the total bi-annual
> gain and evenly distributing the total into the past six months but the
> reports still don't have the meaningful representation it once had for me.  
> 
> Because the condo is my principal residence which I don't have any intention
> of selling anytime soon, is there a way to account for periodic appreciated
> values, without it effecting income in such a profound way when the gains
> are in reality mere paper gains? I am also not so concerned about the
> eventual capital gain, since the sale of a primary residence are not treated
> as a taxable gain here in Canada. 
> 
> ___
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> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
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> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
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Tracking Primary Residences

[Leo Bolta]

 
Although I understand it does not seem to be standard accounting practice to
track appreciation on a condo which is a principal residence, I can't help
but want to implement incorporating very conservative periodic values into
GnuCash, possibly as much as twice a year as the condo represents a
considerable percentage of my net worth/portfolio.  
 
My attempt at treating the condo as a fixed asset with an unrealized capital
gain aspect was to incorporate the set-up as per 'Example 11.3 of Chapter
11" in the GnuCash manual.   However because of a quite a hot
real-estate/condo market, my unrealized gains are now so significant that
the previous unrealized gain dwarfs the fixed income amounts to the point
that the bar charts such as "Income/Expense Chart" displays a skyscraper
sized income bar in the graph, next to a very miniscule bungalow sized bar
representing my expenses. Prior to implementing the new set-up, the Income
vs. Expense chart was much more meaningful as a gage to monitor tangible
income against real expenses. I've even tried taking the total bi-annual
gain and evenly distributing the total into the past six months but the
reports still don't have the meaningful representation it once had for me.  
 
Because the condo is my principal residence which I don't have any intention
of selling anytime soon, is there a way to account for periodic appreciated
values, without it effecting income in such a profound way when the gains
are in reality mere paper gains? I am also not so concerned about the
eventual capital gain, since the sale of a primary residence are not treated
as a taxable gain here in Canada. 
   
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