Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
(Sorry Shachar, sent it to you in private by mistake) 2008/7/6 Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From memory, so please verify, but as far as I remember, the Neo is tri-band, working with 900 and 1800MHz, with some models carrying the 1900MHz as a third band and others the 850MHz. Orange uses 900MHz and Cellcom uses 1800MHz, so both models are totally usable throughout Israel. The 850MHz and 1900MHz make a difference mostly inside the USA, with the 1900MHz model being somewhat preferable if you want to use the phone in Europe and the 850 model being preferable for the USA. Either way, all models are 100% usable with all Israeli carriers. I just got a Google Ad pointing to a shop promising an unlocked iPhone 2 (the new 3G model) and listing it as Quad-Band: GSM * Quad-band (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz) So I wonder why OpenMoko couldn't do this. Cost? --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 03:59:42PM +1000, Amos Shapira wrote: GSM * Quad-band (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz) So I wonder why OpenMoko couldn't do this. Cost? Actually the phone is really just 2 band, the 800/900 and 1800/1900 mHz bands are close enough for modern technology to be the same. In fact the 1800 mHz band overlaps the bottom of the 1900mHz band. The issues is marketing and regulatory approval. Radio transmitters have to be certified to fit within limits of out of band radiation (signals that should not be there, but are leaked), signal purity, etc. Cell phones are rare in the fact that they are not supposed to transmit on their own. If they do not find a suitable cell to connect to, they won't transmit. The 850 and 1900 mHz bands require FCC (the U.S. equivalent of the MOC) approval, and it is not easy to get. For some reason I have never researched, 800 (850) mHz approval is much harder to get than 1900mHz. I think it has to do with the fact that 800mHz cell phones were developed, and the standards set around 10 years earlier. From what I remember the FCC requires documentation from the manufacturer, testing by an independent laboratory (cerifited by the FCC) and then does their own testing. CE testing, which is used outside of the U.S. is more of a self test. The manufacturer submits a report based upon their own testing and government verification is not done. So it is much cheaper and easier to produce a 900 mHz cell phone and limit it in firmware to 900mHz, than produce an 850/900 cell phone and be allowed to sell it. Apple, being a U.S. company could have made the iPhone 850/1900 dual band or since it is locked to one carrier, single band on the one they use, without too much difference in sales. In this case the 900/1800 band certification was the cheap add on, which obviously the 850 is not. Bear in mind that the OpenMoko is a specialty item and probably will not sell as many in its entire production as Apple sells iPhones in a day. What may seem like a trivial cost to Apple may simply not be worth it. My expectation is that most of the OpenMoko users will install a third party application that exists only because the phone is open source and a significant number of users will develop programs for it. The iPhone is exactly the opposite, even if it were open source, almost all of the owners of it will never install anything extra on it, and the number of developers, even if it were open source, would be statisticly insignificant. IMHO the quad band capability will sell a lot more iPhones than the open source of the OpenMoko, so it makes sense for Apple to concentrate on that, and the makers of the OpenMoko not to. An interesting (to me) discussion, probably not for this list, would be exactly how open a cell phone could be and still get regulatory approval. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: how do i rescan the pci bus ?
On Sun, Jul 06, 2008 at 04:39:14PM +0300, Erez D wrote: hi i have booted my linuxbox, and later hot-plugged a hot-pluggable pci card lspci does not give any detailes of the new card, so i guess i need rescan the pci bus. I don't know hot-plugged PCI, but with (hot-plugged) USB there is no such need. Are you sure that the card is well-connected? What kernel messages do you see when it gets connected? Does the kernel support PCI hotplugging? -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: solved (was: how do i rescan the pci bus ?)
On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 03:29:02PM +0300, Erez D wrote: solved: there is a driver called pciehp Why isn't the module loaded automatically? How can you get it loaded automatically? What distribution is it? if i modprobe it, it will automatically rescan the bus whenever a new pci-e device is inserted or removed. in my case i had to insmod it with: modprobe pciehp pciehp_force=1 So add that option in a file in /etc/modpprobe.d -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: source for libtermcap
On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 05:15:07PM +0300, Aharon Schkolnik wrote: Hi. I am looking for the source for /lib/libtermcap.so.2.0.8 which comes from rpm libtermcap-2.0.8-35. Everything I have found so far points me to sunsite, but I can not find the sources there. Does anyone know where I can find the sources ? Don't you? rpm -qfi /lib/libtermcap.so.2.0.8 What is the source rpm? -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: how do i rescan the pci bus ?
Hi, Does the kernel support PCI hotplugging? What is the immediate way to know whether a kernel on a specific machine supports PCI hotplugging? 10x Dan On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Jul 06, 2008 at 04:39:14PM +0300, Erez D wrote: hi i have booted my linuxbox, and later hot-plugged a hot-pluggable pci card lspci does not give any detailes of the new card, so i guess i need rescan the pci bus. I don't know hot-plugged PCI, but with (hot-plugged) USB there is no such need. Are you sure that the card is well-connected? What kernel messages do you see when it gets connected? Does the kernel support PCI hotplugging? -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: source for libtermcap
On Thursday 10 July 2008, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 05:15:07PM +0300, Aharon Schkolnik wrote: Hi. I am looking for the source for /lib/libtermcap.so.2.0.8 which comes from rpm libtermcap-2.0.8-35. Everything I have found so far points me to sunsite, but I can not find the sources there. Does anyone know where I can find the sources ? Don't you? rpm -qfi /lib/libtermcap.so.2.0.8 What is the source rpm? I had no problem finding the source rpm. I was looking for the source for the source rpm - the project tar ball. Seems termcap library has been replaced by curses, and looks like we are going to go that way, too. -- The day is short, and the work is great,| Aharon Schkolnik and the laborers are lazy, and the reward | is great, and the Master of the house is| [EMAIL PROTECTED] impatient. - Ethics Of The Fathers Ch. 2| 054 3344135 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Flash production on Linux
OpenOffice does that also. Open the ppt and use the export feature to swf. On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Gilad Ben-Yossef [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Jaffe wrote: I need to convert a presentation from PowerPoint to either flash or some video format. What's the best way to do this on Linux? Thanks. Try http://www.scribd.com Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef Chief Coffee Drinker Codefidence Ltd. The code is free, your time isn't.(TM) Web:http://codefidence.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: +972-8-9316883 ext. 201 Fax:+972-8-9316885 Mobile: +972-52-8260388 Q: How many NSA agents does it take to replace a lightbulb? A: dSva7DrYiY24yeTItKyyogFXD5gRuoRqPNQ9v6WCLLywZPINlu!
Re: source for libtermcap
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:29:34AM +0300, Aharon Schkolnik wrote: On Thursday 10 July 2008, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 05:15:07PM +0300, Aharon Schkolnik wrote: Hi. I am looking for the source for /lib/libtermcap.so.2.0.8 which comes from rpm libtermcap-2.0.8-35. Everything I have found so far points me to sunsite, but I can not find the sources there. Does anyone know where I can find the sources ? Don't you? rpm -qfi /lib/libtermcap.so.2.0.8 What is the source rpm? I had no problem finding the source rpm. What is the source RPM (ncurses-something?) I was looking for the source for the source rpm - the project tar ball. Seems termcap library has been replaced by curses, and looks like we are going If it's from a decent source, you'll find copies of it in mirrors. A source rpm is essentially a cpio archive that includes sources (usually just a single tarball) and patches, with a spec file that defines how to build it. -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Good corporate intranet site software?
Hello, After just over a year of introducing MediaWiki into my workplace (1.7 for now), the non-geek user base (read - sales and marketing) is expected to grow and I need to address some shortcomings. A couple of specific points my (geeky and technically capable) CEO just pointed a couple of things which bother him personally: 1. Attaching files is a bitch. 2. Formatting tables. He'd like to hear suggestions for other solutions to help share information inside the company. We are willing to invest in non-opensource solutions as long as they: 1. Run on Linux (and work with Linux browsers). 2. Address the above couple of points 3. Not too expensive. One software my boss likes is Atlassian's Confluence (http://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence/) Any other suggestions? Can other wiki implementations do that better? Is it worth the trouble to upgrade to the latest MediaWiki? Are there better GUI's for MediaWiki editing and file upload? Thanks, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: source for libtermcap
On Thursday 10 July 2008, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:29:34AM +0300, Aharon Schkolnik wrote: On Thursday 10 July 2008, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 05:15:07PM +0300, Aharon Schkolnik wrote: Hi. I am looking for the source for /lib/libtermcap.so.2.0.8 which comes from rpm libtermcap-2.0.8-35. Everything I have found so far points me to sunsite, but I can not find the sources there. Does anyone know where I can find the sources ? Don't you? rpm -qfi /lib/libtermcap.so.2.0.8 What is the source rpm? I had no problem finding the source rpm. What is the source RPM (ncurses-something?) No, Source RPM: libtermcap-2.0.8-46.1.src.rpm I was looking for the source for the source rpm - the project tar ball. Seems termcap library has been replaced by curses, and looks like we are going If it's from a decent source, you'll find copies of it in mirrors. http://rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=libtermcap-devel says to look in: ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/GCC/ ftp://ftp.ibliblio.org/pub/Linux/GCC/ ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/GCC/ But, I have been unable to find the tarball on any of those sites, nor have I had any luck searching for the tarball. A source rpm is essentially a cpio archive that includes sources (usually just a single tarball) and patches, with a spec file that defines how to build it. I have no problem extracting the tarball, patches, etc from the source rpm, I was looking for the original source (the project site) - I was thinking that perhaps the rpm makers might have altered the source slightly. As it looks now, I will either have to use the tarball from the source rpm, or just drop libtermcap in favor of curses (might necessitate code changes). -- The day is short, and the work is great,| Aharon Schkolnik and the laborers are lazy, and the reward | is great, and the Master of the house is| [EMAIL PROTECTED] impatient. - Ethics Of The Fathers Ch. 2| 054 3344135 = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
2008/7/10 Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: An interesting (to me) discussion, probably not for this list, would be exactly how open a cell phone could be and still get regulatory approval. It is very relevant to this list, and I've wondered the same thing myself. Radio transmitters need to be pretty locked down to get FCC approval. That's why there are so many problems with wifi cards under Linux. How open could the OpenMoko be and still get approval? Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/7/10 Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: An interesting (to me) discussion, probably not for this list, would be exactly how open a cell phone could be and still get regulatory approval. It is very relevant to this list, and I've wondered the same thing myself. Radio transmitters need to be pretty locked down to get FCC approval. That's why there are so many problems with wifi cards under Linux. How open could the OpenMoko be and still get approval? AFAIK, actual RF communication is done on a separate chip which runs a propritery firmware. It is governed by a small user space daemon on the main Linux running chip and it is NOT open source, but is the only component which is not. Gilad -- Gilad Ben-Yossef Chief Coffee Drinker Codefidence Ltd. The code is free, your time isn't.(TM) Web:http://codefidence.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Office: +972-8-9316883 ext. 201 Fax:+972-8-9316885 Mobile: +972-52-8260388 Q: How many NSA agents does it take to replace a lightbulb? A: dSva7DrYiY24yeTItKyyogFXD5gRuoRqPNQ9v6WCLLywZPINlu!
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 03:42:28PM +0300, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: AFAIK, actual RF communication is done on a separate chip which runs a propritery firmware. It is governed by a small user space daemon on the main Linux running chip and it is NOT open source, but is the only component which is not. That's certainly not new, and makes a lot of sense. I was going to do that for the DRM portion of my handheld device, and I got it from the original IBM PC. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Enable packet forwarding on boot on Debian Etch
Hi list members, I have a PC with Debian Etch. The PC has tow NICs, eth1 and eth2 I need the PC to forward IPV4 packets between the NICs. To permanently enable IPV4 packet forwarding on Debian Etch, one needs to uncomment corresponding line in /etc/sysctl.conf: net.ipv4.conf.default.forwarding = 1 Debian reference on Etch does not mention this configuration, so I think this is a useful information. (Or search the Internet) - Moshe = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008, Amos Shapira wrote: (Sorry Shachar, sent it to you in private by mistake) 2008/7/6 Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: From memory, so please verify, but as far as I remember, the Neo is tri-band, working with 900 and 1800MHz, with some models carrying the 1900MHz as a third band and others the 850MHz. Orange uses 900MHz and Cellcom uses 1800MHz, so both models are totally usable throughout Israel. The 850MHz and 1900MHz make a difference mostly inside the USA, with the 1900MHz model being somewhat preferable if you want to use the phone in Europe and the 850 model being preferable for the USA. Either way, all models are 100% usable with all Israeli carriers. I just got a Google Ad pointing to a shop promising an unlocked iPhone 2 (the new 3G model) and listing it as Quad-Band: GSM * Quad-band (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz) So I wonder why OpenMoko couldn't do this. Cost? Cost was certainly part of it, but more important was the availability of a GSM/GPRS module as a monolithic black box that would allow us to open-source all the code outside of that box (i.e. no binary blobs). We had not at the time found this for quad-band or 3G. Remember too that the Freerunner is just our current model, we have future models planned and quad-band and 3G are desired, being considered, and may already be designed (I just can't keep up with all the news). Michael = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: An interesting (to me) discussion, probably not for this list, would be exactly how open a cell phone could be and still get regulatory approval. Geoff. I can answer that. I hinted at it in my previous email. The guideline we followed was RMS's rule about when source code has to be delivered. If code running on a chip or set of chips can not be downloaded or updated or reprogrammed in any convenient way by the user (which in this context includes you, the open source developer), then for practical purposes it may be considered to be hardware, and thus source code is not required. (I like to think of this as similar to the Turing Test - if you can not determine from the outside whether it's implemented completely in hardware, or whether it consists of some form of firmware, then we call it hardware.) The GSM radio in Openmoko's Neo Freerunner is a black box. The interface is well defined (it's a serial port and implements the industry-standard cellphones extensions to the AT smart modem command set) and all code that communicates with the black box is open. Anything inside the black box can not be modified by developers, and thus received regulatory approval. Michael = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/7/10 Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: An interesting (to me) discussion, probably not for this list, would be exactly how open a cell phone could be and still get regulatory approval. It is very relevant to this list, and I've wondered the same thing myself. Radio transmitters need to be pretty locked down to get FCC approval. That's why there are so many problems with wifi cards under Linux. How open could the OpenMoko be and still get approval? AFAIK, actual RF communication is done on a separate chip which runs a propritery firmware. True It is governed by a small user space daemon on the main Linux running chip and it is NOT open source, but is the only component which is not. Not true. All code on the Linux side is completely open source. (You might be thinking of the GPS chip in the earlier phone, the Neo 1973. The GPS company allowed us to release their driver only in binary form. For this reason we switched to a different GPS chip in our current phone, the Neo Freerunner, and thus there is no code running on the Linux side that is not open source.) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ubuntu laptop hard drive heating up
Hi, I installed Hardy on a friend's new Thinkpad X61 laptop, and I'm facing a serious problem. The laptop's hard drive heats up to unbearable temperature (hddtemp shows numbers over 50 degrees). When running smartctls, the hdd's Load_Cycle_Count is increased in an alarming rate. The web is filled with contradicting information on the effect. The (somewhat) official information I dug is: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=795327 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/acpi-support/+bug/59695 The solutions offered there doesn't seem to help much. I remember this as an Ubuntu issue a while back, but I didn't expect to see it in 8.04. I'd appreciate any suggestions to debug and solve this, Ami = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: how do i rescan the pci bus ?
On Thursday, 10 בJuly 2008, Dan Shimshoni wrote: Hi, Does the kernel support PCI hotplugging? Most distros install the configurations used to build their kernels alongside the kernel in /boot. E.g: on my host: grep CONFIG_HOTPLUG_PCI /boot/config-2.6.25.9-40.fc8 [there are several relevant config items] -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron C++: an octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog. -- Steve Taylor To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: source for libtermcap
On Thursday, 10 בJuly 2008, Aharon Schkolnik wrote: I have no problem extracting the tarball, patches, etc from the source rpm, I was looking for the original source (the project site) - I was thinking that perhaps the rpm makers might have altered the source slightly. If you distribution (you didn't say which) is composed by sane people than the tarball contained in the RPM is the *pristine* tarball -- which means it is an *exact* copy of the original tarball. That's why the SRPM may contain additional sources, patches, etc. This guideline is shared by any responsible distribution regardless if it uses RPM (e.g: Fedora) or deb (e.g: Debian). The simple reason for this guideline, is that without it there is no chance for the package maintainers to differentiate their changes from changes done by the upstream developers and stay sane... As it looks now, I will either have to use the tarball from the source rpm, Yes, that's the one you want. If you want to have with the distribution patches included, than simply use rpmbuild -bp the_spec_file to have it extract and patch the source. or just drop libtermcap in favor of curses (might necessitate code changes). This may be justified because of other reasons (ncurses has more features and is better maintained that old termcap). Obviously, this has nothing to do with the RPM/SRPM question, as it is packaged exactly like termcap with the same (distro) policy. -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron Ignore Your Rights And They'll Go Away To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenMoko freerunner warning
2008/7/10 michael shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: An interesting (to me) discussion, probably not for this list, would be exactly how open a cell phone could be and still get regulatory approval. Geoff. I can answer that. I hinted at it in my previous email. The guideline we followed was RMS's rule about when source code has to be delivered. If code running on a chip or set of chips can not be downloaded or updated or reprogrammed in any convenient way by the user (which in this context includes you, the open source developer), then for practical purposes it may be considered to be hardware, and thus source code is not required. (I like to think of this as similar to the Turing Test - if you can not determine from the outside whether it's implemented completely in hardware, or whether it consists of some form of firmware, then we call it hardware.) The GSM radio in Openmoko's Neo Freerunner is a black box. The interface is well defined (it's a serial port and implements the industry-standard cellphones extensions to the AT smart modem command set) and all code that communicates with the black box is open. Anything inside the black box can not be modified by developers, and thus received regulatory approval. Michael Thanks, Michael. Those bits of information are interesting. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
