Re: CORRECTION (Re: AGAIN, UGLY OFFTOPIC (Re: Weird 'free' output))

2021-05-10 Thread Shachar Shemesh 

  
  


On 09/05/2021 20:51, Omer Zak wrote:


  After sending the E-mail message reproduced below, I checked the
mailing list archives and did not find there Diego's E-mail.
So he apparently limited his E-mail message's distribution to his
victim and to the mailing list's administrators.

Except I, as a mailing list administrator, did not get it (and, yes,
I did check the spam folder). As I said before, I'm not sure whether
that was done on purpose or not.

  
However, I believe that Ori did the right thing by letting the Linux-IL 
mailing list members know that some people want to unsubscribe him from
this mailing list due to an indictment.

I have no particular opinion about "right". I highly doubt it was
"smart". Like I said before, however, my opinion on the matter worth
exactly as much as what you've paid to hear it.

  On Sun, 2021-05-09 at 20:28 +0300, Omer Zak wrote:

  
However, in more enlightened times, the courts in Israel used to work
under the principle that a person is presumed to be innocent until
proven otherwise.
This is equivalent to: you failed to prove a point, so we assume the
opposite point when we need to make decisions.
  

I was referring to your bold assertion that Ori was incriminated. An
assertion that, as far my personal evidence gathering has turned
out, seems highly far-fetched. With that said, I'm sure that if Ori
will forward me the slander suite he promised he is filing against
Y-Net, I will find it illuminating, and am entirely open to the
possibility I will change my mind.

  


Regrettably, the courts have not been following this principle in the
case of Tair Rada's murder and presumably in other cases.
  

The courts, in Israel and elsewhere, have been known to err in
  the past. I'm not sure Roman Zadorov's case is a good example,
  except in above-mentioned court of public opinion, where he made a
  very effective campaign indeed. Anyone who wants to debate the
  issue with me is kindly requested to:

  Do it off list
  Read the high court's verdict
first.

BTW, there is a name for someone who has a strongly held opinion
  on the matter and have not done #2 above yet: prejudice. Willfully
  ignorant probably also fits the bill.


  


I am old fashioned so I happen to prefer the traditional presumption
of
innocence, as long as is not abused by lawyers who nitpick the
meaning
of words in laws.
  

You do realize that society is not bound by above mentioned
  presumption on innocence, and in many cases, nor should it.
With that said, as I mentioned before, I don't think Ori's, or
  anyone else's, behavior unrelated to this list should matter for
  the question of whether they should be able to continue to post
  here.
Shachar

  


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CORRECTION (Re: AGAIN, UGLY OFFTOPIC (Re: Weird 'free' output))

2021-05-09 Thread Omer Zak 
After sending the E-mail message reproduced below, I checked the
mailing list archives and did not find there Diego's E-mail.
So he apparently limited his E-mail message's distribution to his
victim and to the mailing list's administrators.

So my memory failed me in this case.

However, I believe that Ori did the right thing by letting the Linux-IL 
mailing list members know that some people want to unsubscribe him from
this mailing list due to an indictment.

We, the mailing list participants - not only the administrators - have
the right to express our opinion about whether we want to remove people
who have been indicted, to limit this action to convicted criminals, or
to allow even prisoners to participate (as part of preparing for their
future as productive members of society).

As for me, I wouldn't want to be part of a group which excludes members
based solely upon complaints or indictments, a group which ignores the
possibility of people having been framed by their
business/political/romantic competitors.




On Sun, 2021-05-09 at 20:28 +0300, Omer Zak wrote:
> As far as I remember, Diego did send the request to the list. So Ori
> Idan could not really ignore Diego's E-mail. Doing so could have been
> interpreted as admission of guilt (in the Court of Public Opinion).
> 
> I agree that failing to prove a point is different from proving the
> opposite point.
> However, in more enlightened times, the courts in Israel used to work
> under the principle that a person is presumed to be innocent until
> proven otherwise.
> This is equivalent to: you failed to prove a point, so we assume the
> opposite point when we need to make decisions.
> 
> Regrettably, the courts have not been following this principle in the
> case of Tair Rada's murder and presumably in other cases.
> 
> I am old fashioned so I happen to prefer the traditional presumption
> of
> innocence, as long as is not abused by lawyers who nitpick the
> meaning
> of words in laws.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 2021-05-09 at 20:02 +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
> > I'm not sure my opinion is worth more than anyone else, except I
> > _am_
> > one of the admins.
> > 
> > Diego: +1 for not sending your mail to the list. -1 for not CCing
> > the
> > actual admins, and another one for talking for the community.
> > 
> > Ori: -1 for making this part of the thread public. If I may be so
> > bold as to make a suggestion, simply ignoring Diego's mail would
> > have
> > been smarter.
> > 
> > Shay: As far as I know, Nevo does not have police complaints, nor
> > even unpublished verdicts. Even if a complaint was filed, it
> > wouldn't
> > have shown up. Feel free to correct me in private.
> > 
> > Michael: +1 agree. I believe this list should judge people based on
> > their behavior on or in relation to this list
> > 
> > Omer: As far as I can tell, Diego didn't send the request to the
> > list
> > (at least, I didn't get it on the list). It may well have been
> > unintentional, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt
> > here. Also, please note that failing to prove a point is not the
> > same
> > as proving the opposite point. You are free to believe whatever you
> > like, but that is still your belief, not established facts.
> > 
> > Someone identifying as linux.il: -5 for failing to distinguish
> > between a SCSI cable and a differential SCSI cable. I'm really
> > disappointed. From you, of all people, I expected better, whoever
> > you
> > are.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 04/05/2021 21:48, Ori Idan wrote:
> > > Sorry, I am not a convicted criminal.
> > > If you believe what is written in Yediot, that is your problem.
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Ori Idan CEO Helicon Books
> > > http://www.heliconbooks.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 9:21 PM Diego Iastrubni <
> > > diegoi...@gmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> > > > Ori,
> > > > 
> > > > You are not welcome here. Please unsubscribe. 
> > > > 
> > > > Admins - please remove this convicted criminal from this list.
> > > > This man is a stain on our community. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021, 7:53 PM Ori Idan 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Note that Linux tries to use available memory for cache, that
> > > > > is why free memory seems small.
> > > > > 
> > > > > -- 
> > > > > Ori Idan CEO Helicon Books
> > > > > http://www.heliconbooks.com
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 2:48 PM linux.il 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Omer, thank you!
> > > > > > Is it related to the "Inactive" count from /proc/meminfo?
> > > > > > I used to think that available=free+cache+buffers...
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 1:19 PM Omer Zak 
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > From man free:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > available
> > > > > > >   Estimation of how much memory is available
> > > > > > > for starting
> > > > > > > new applications, without swapping. Unlike the data
> > > > > > > provided  by
> > > > > >

AGAIN, UGLY OFFTOPIC (Re: Weird 'free' output)

2021-05-09 Thread Omer Zak 
As far as I remember, Diego did send the request to the list. So Ori
Idan could not really ignore Diego's E-mail. Doing so could have been
interpreted as admission of guilt (in the Court of Public Opinion).

I agree that failing to prove a point is different from proving the
opposite point.
However, in more enlightened times, the courts in Israel used to work
under the principle that a person is presumed to be innocent until
proven otherwise.
This is equivalent to: you failed to prove a point, so we assume the
opposite point when we need to make decisions.

Regrettably, the courts have not been following this principle in the
case of Tair Rada's murder and presumably in other cases.

I am old fashioned so I happen to prefer the traditional presumption of
innocence, as long as is not abused by lawyers who nitpick the meaning
of words in laws.



On Sun, 2021-05-09 at 20:02 +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
> I'm not sure my opinion is worth more than anyone else, except I _am_
> one of the admins.
> 
> Diego: +1 for not sending your mail to the list. -1 for not CCing the
> actual admins, and another one for talking for the community.
> 
> Ori: -1 for making this part of the thread public. If I may be so
> bold as to make a suggestion, simply ignoring Diego's mail would have
> been smarter.
> 
> Shay: As far as I know, Nevo does not have police complaints, nor
> even unpublished verdicts. Even if a complaint was filed, it wouldn't
> have shown up. Feel free to correct me in private.
> 
> Michael: +1 agree. I believe this list should judge people based on
> their behavior on or in relation to this list
> 
> Omer: As far as I can tell, Diego didn't send the request to the list
> (at least, I didn't get it on the list). It may well have been
> unintentional, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt
> here. Also, please note that failing to prove a point is not the same
> as proving the opposite point. You are free to believe whatever you
> like, but that is still your belief, not established facts.
> 
> Someone identifying as linux.il: -5 for failing to distinguish
> between a SCSI cable and a differential SCSI cable. I'm really
> disappointed. From you, of all people, I expected better, whoever you
> are.
> 
> 
> 
> On 04/05/2021 21:48, Ori Idan wrote:
> > Sorry, I am not a convicted criminal.
> > If you believe what is written in Yediot, that is your problem.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Ori Idan CEO Helicon Books
> > http://www.heliconbooks.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 9:21 PM Diego Iastrubni  > > wrote:
> > > Ori,
> > > 
> > > You are not welcome here. Please unsubscribe. 
> > > 
> > > Admins - please remove this convicted criminal from this list.
> > > This man is a stain on our community. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Tue, May 4, 2021, 7:53 PM Ori Idan 
> > > wrote:
> > > > Note that Linux tries to use available memory for cache, that
> > > > is why free memory seems small.
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > Ori Idan CEO Helicon Books
> > > > http://www.heliconbooks.com
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 2:48 PM linux.il 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Omer, thank you!
> > > > > Is it related to the "Inactive" count from /proc/meminfo?
> > > > > I used to think that available=free+cache+buffers...
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 1:19 PM Omer Zak  wrote:
> > > > > > From man free:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > available
> > > > > >   Estimation of how much memory is available
> > > > > > for starting
> > > > > > new applications, without swapping. Unlike the data
> > > > > > provided  by
> > > > > >   the  cache  or free fields, this field takes
> > > > > > into account
> > > > > > page cache and also that not all reclaimable memory slabs
> > > > > > will
> > > > > >   be reclaimed due to items being in use
> > > > > > (MemAvailable in
> > > > > > /proc/meminfo, available on kernels 3.14,  emulated  on 
> > > > > > kernels
> > > > > >   2.6.27+, otherwise the same as free)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > On Tue, 2021-05-04 at 13:07 +0300, linux.il wrote:
> > > > > > > "Available" output seems weird, or I'm missing something?
> > > > > > > Any ideas?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > TIA, Vitaly
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > free -m
> > > > > > >   totalusedfree  shared 
> > > > > > buff/cache  
> > > > > > > available
> > > > > > > Mem:  31654   29883 937   1 
> > > > > >832  
> > > > > > > 27675
> > > > > > > Swap: 0   0   0

-- 
In civilized societies, captions are as important in movies as
soundtracks, professional photography and expert editing.
My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with
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WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at

Re: Weird 'free' output

2021-05-09 Thread Shachar Shemesh 

  
  
I'm not sure my opinion is worth more than anyone else, except I
  _am_ one of the admins.
Diego: +1 for not sending your mail to the list. -1 for not CCing
  the actual admins, and another one for talking for the community.
Ori: -1 for making this part of the thread public. If I may be so
  bold as to make a suggestion, simply ignoring Diego's mail would
  have been smarter.
Shay: As far as I know, Nevo does not have police complaints, nor
  even unpublished verdicts. Even if a complaint was filed, it
  wouldn't have shown up. Feel free to correct me in private.
Michael: +1 agree. I believe this list should judge people based
  on their behavior on or in relation to this list

Omer: As far as I can tell, Diego didn't send the request to the
  list (at least, I didn't get it on the list). It may well have
  been unintentional, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the
  doubt here. Also, please note that failing to prove a point is not
  the same as proving the opposite point. You are free to believe
  whatever you like, but that is still your belief, not established
  facts.

Someone identifying as linux.il: -5 for failing to distinguish
  between a SCSI cable and a differential SCSI cable. I'm really
  disappointed. From you, of all people, I expected better, whoever
  you are.



On 04/05/2021 21:48, Ori Idan wrote:


  
  Sorry, I am not a convicted criminal.
If you believe what is written in Yediot, that is your
  problem.

  

  
-- 
Ori Idan CEO Helicon Books
http://www.heliconbooks.com



  
  
  
  

  

  
  

  
  
  
On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 9:21 PM
  Diego Iastrubni  wrote:


  Ori,


You are not welcome here. Please
  unsubscribe. 


Admins - please remove this convicted
  criminal from this list. This man is a stain on our
  community. 




  
  
  
On Tue, May 4, 2021, 7:53
  PM Ori Idan 
  wrote:


  
Note that Linux tries to use available memory for
  cache, that is why free memory seems small.



  

  -- 
  Ori Idan CEO Helicon Books
  http://www.heliconbooks.com
  
  
  




  

  


  
  
  
On Tue, May 4, 2021 at
  2:48 PM linux.il
  
  wrote:


  Omer, thank you!
Is it related to the "Inactive" count
from /proc/meminfo?
I used to think that
  available=free+cache+buffers...
  
  
  
On Tue, May 4,
  2021 at 1:19 PM Omer Zak 
  wrote:

From man free:
  
  available
                Estimation of how much memory is
  available for starting
  new applications, without swapping. Unlike the
  data provided  by
                the  cache  or free fields, this
  field takes into account
  page cache and also that not all reclaimable
  memory slabs will
                be reclaimed due to items being in
  use (MemAvailable in
  /proc/meminfo, available on kernels 3.14, 
  emulated  on  kernels
                2.6.27+, otherwise the same as free)
  
  
  
  On Tue, 2021-05-04 at 13:07 +0300, linux.il wrote:
  > "Available" output seems weird, or I'm
  missing something?
  > Any ideas?

Re: Weird 'free' output

2021-05-04 Thread Ori Idan 
Sorry, I am not a convicted criminal.
If you believe what is written in Yediot, that is your problem.

-- 
Ori Idan CEO Helicon Books
http://www.heliconbooks.com





On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 9:21 PM Diego Iastrubni  wrote:

> Ori,
>
> You are not welcome here. Please unsubscribe.
>
> Admins - please remove this convicted criminal from this list. This man is
> a stain on our community.
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 7:53 PM Ori Idan  wrote:
>
>> Note that Linux tries to use available memory for cache, that is why free
>> memory seems small.
>>
>> --
>> Ori Idan CEO Helicon Books
>> http://www.heliconbooks.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 2:48 PM linux.il  wrote:
>>
>>> Omer, thank you!
>>> Is it related to the "Inactive" count from /proc/meminfo?
>>> I used to think that available=free+cache+buffers...
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 1:19 PM Omer Zak  wrote:
>>>
 From man free:

 available
   Estimation of how much memory is available for starting
 new applications, without swapping. Unlike the data provided  by
   the  cache  or free fields, this field takes into account
 page cache and also that not all reclaimable memory slabs will
   be reclaimed due to items being in use (MemAvailable in
 /proc/meminfo, available on kernels 3.14,  emulated  on  kernels
   2.6.27+, otherwise the same as free)



 On Tue, 2021-05-04 at 13:07 +0300, linux.il wrote:
 > "Available" output seems weird, or I'm missing something?
 > Any ideas?
 >
 > TIA, Vitaly
 >
 > free -m
 >   totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
 > available
 > Mem:  31654   29883 937   1 832
 > 27675
 > Swap: 0   0   0


 --
 "Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by
 looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it
 possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man." - Walter E.
 Williams
 My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/

 My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
 They do not represent the official policy of any organization with
 which I may be affiliated in any way.
 WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html




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Re: Weird 'free' output

2021-05-04 Thread Ori Idan 
Note that Linux tries to use available memory for cache, that is why free
memory seems small.

-- 
Ori Idan CEO Helicon Books
http://www.heliconbooks.com





On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 2:48 PM linux.il  wrote:

> Omer, thank you!
> Is it related to the "Inactive" count from /proc/meminfo?
> I used to think that available=free+cache+buffers...
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 1:19 PM Omer Zak  wrote:
>
>> From man free:
>>
>> available
>>   Estimation of how much memory is available for starting
>> new applications, without swapping. Unlike the data provided  by
>>   the  cache  or free fields, this field takes into account
>> page cache and also that not all reclaimable memory slabs will
>>   be reclaimed due to items being in use (MemAvailable in
>> /proc/meminfo, available on kernels 3.14,  emulated  on  kernels
>>   2.6.27+, otherwise the same as free)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 2021-05-04 at 13:07 +0300, linux.il wrote:
>> > "Available" output seems weird, or I'm missing something?
>> > Any ideas?
>> >
>> > TIA, Vitaly
>> >
>> > free -m
>> >   totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
>> > available
>> > Mem:  31654   29883 937   1 832
>> > 27675
>> > Swap: 0   0   0
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by
>> looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it
>> possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man." - Walter E.
>> Williams
>> My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/
>>
>> My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
>> They do not represent the official policy of any organization with
>> which I may be affiliated in any way.
>> WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: Weird 'free' output

2021-05-04 Thread linux.il 
Omer, thank you!
Is it related to the "Inactive" count from /proc/meminfo?
I used to think that available=free+cache+buffers...

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 1:19 PM Omer Zak  wrote:

> From man free:
>
> available
>   Estimation of how much memory is available for starting
> new applications, without swapping. Unlike the data provided  by
>   the  cache  or free fields, this field takes into account
> page cache and also that not all reclaimable memory slabs will
>   be reclaimed due to items being in use (MemAvailable in
> /proc/meminfo, available on kernels 3.14,  emulated  on  kernels
>   2.6.27+, otherwise the same as free)
>
>
>
> On Tue, 2021-05-04 at 13:07 +0300, linux.il wrote:
> > "Available" output seems weird, or I'm missing something?
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > TIA, Vitaly
> >
> > free -m
> >   totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
> > available
> > Mem:  31654   29883 937   1 832
> > 27675
> > Swap: 0   0   0
>
>
> --
> "Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by
> looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it
> possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man." - Walter E.
> Williams
> My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/
>
> My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
> They do not represent the official policy of any organization with
> which I may be affiliated in any way.
> WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
>
>
>
>
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> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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Re: Weird 'free' output

2021-05-04 Thread Omer Zak 
>From man free:

available
  Estimation of how much memory is available for starting
new applications, without swapping. Unlike the data provided  by
  the  cache  or free fields, this field takes into account
page cache and also that not all reclaimable memory slabs will
  be reclaimed due to items being in use (MemAvailable in
/proc/meminfo, available on kernels 3.14,  emulated  on  kernels
  2.6.27+, otherwise the same as free)



On Tue, 2021-05-04 at 13:07 +0300, linux.il wrote:
> "Available" output seems weird, or I'm missing something?
> Any ideas?
> 
> TIA, Vitaly
> 
> free -m
>   totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache  
> available
> Mem:  31654   29883 937   1 832  
> 27675
> Swap: 0   0   0


-- 
"Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by
looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it
possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man." - Walter E.
Williams
My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with
which I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html




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