Re: booting into linux from windows98
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007, Dotan Cohen wrote: The paranoid survive. Yes, but they feel like they're being watched all the time for some reason. McAfree, PartitionMagic and Norton are already in bed with MS. Keeping big business afloat while drowning the little guy is something that MS has done many times in the past. What does MS care if MoshePartition suddenly stops working? MS cares more about MoshePartitions than about big business. Big business does not buy functionality, it buys 'deals'. 50% off the license bundle and a service contract and the buying suit gets a bonus from his leader suits. 1000 cubicles and 50 IT support personnel will weep over this for two years. The suit won't weep, all expenses paid bonus trips to Bahamas or Cancun don't make people weep. Also the deal will figure prominently under 'achievements' in his CV. He might even have used the 'L' word to get the 50% off. The MoshePartitions must be kept happy with animations, buzzwords and sufficient service on the phone to prevent them from starting class action suits. Notice that suits never start class action suits (hehe) for some reason. Keeping MoshePartitions happy is harder than satisfying suits, since the beta testing is continuous and hard to influence by lobby or bonuses. When m$ was caught financing self-prozelytization by paying off bloggers (with free laptops among other things), the reaction was predictable. For every corporate user there must be 1000 individual users out there. Even if only 10% of them are paying promptly they outnumber the corporate users 10:1. Making sure that something simple and inexpensive will keep the MoshePartitions going (like reinstalling) has been what has kept m$ systems going for the little user, together with hypnotizing small users into the idea that backups are expensive and that data loss is a given thing. That includes data loss by 'upgrading' to incompatible file formats. And most suits who buy quality or make uptime commitments think thrice about what exctly they buy. With uptimes at most in the 0.9 range (including network) a 10 machine installation means a 0.35 probability for any machine to work right at any given time. In fact the highest number of networked machines with 0.9 such that the probability for any one of them to be up (= 0.5) is 6 ;-) It follows that networks with more than 6 computers need a technician chained to the desk or a support contract. The fact that most servers used are not of the m$ variety is not an accident, it is a consequence of what happens to business when they go down. Peter = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On 28/01/07, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is a direct solution ;-) ;-) ;-) http://goodbye-microsoft.com/ origin: /. Peter That site downlaods an exe. What is in it? Debian as a windows executable? Somehow I don't think so. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com/what_is/open_office.html http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/398/pet_shop_boys.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
El dom, 28-01-2007 a las 17:05 +0200, Dotan Cohen escribió: On 28/01/07, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is a direct solution ;-) ;-) ;-) http://goodbye-microsoft.com/ origin: /. Peter That site downlaods an exe. What is in it? Debian as a windows executable? Somehow I don't think so. Click at the More details about it link and at the Ubuntu sister project. You will see. It is Amazing! Julian Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com/what_is/open_office.html http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/398/pet_shop_boys.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Julian Daich [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
From the site: ubuntu.img will be the ubuntu hard drive image. It will be used as a loopmounted EXT3 filesystem, and will be placed in the C:\ubuntu directory. Is that what we've come to? Running a Debian spinoff on NTFS? Amazing indeed. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com/what_is/open_office.html http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/398/pet_shop_boys.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
Is that what we've come to? Running a Debian spinoff on NTFS? Amazing indeed. Well, it is for those whom are already running WinXP in NTFS... The bad side for this threat, it will not work for Win98. AFAIK Win98 is FAT. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com/what_is/open_office.html http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/398/pet_shop_boys.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Julian Daich [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007, Dotan Cohen wrote: On 28/01/07, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is a direct solution ;-) ;-) ;-) http://goodbye-microsoft.com/ origin: /. Peter That site downlaods an exe. What is in it? Debian as a windows executable? Somehow I don't think so. Try it and find out ;-) You will never look back. (note: I'm incommunicado for the following week or so ... ) (Seriously: it's a Debian installer that runs directly from the Windows desktop and jumps into installing Debian. Maybe you can hijack it to start an existing Debian partition instead - I mean after d/l-ing the exe and seeing how it works). Peter = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007, Dotan Cohen wrote: From the site: ubuntu.img will be the ubuntu hard drive image. It will be used as a loopmounted EXT3 filesystem, and will be placed in the C:\ubuntu directory. Is that what we've come to? Running a Debian spinoff on NTFS? Amazing indeed. Next thing you'll know will be Linux crashing because of NTFS and users claiming 'Linux is as unstable as Windows' Peter = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On Sun, 2007-01-28 at 17:45 +0200, Julian Daich wrote: Is that what we've come to? Running a Debian spinoff on NTFS? Amazing indeed. Well, it is for those whom are already running WinXP in NTFS... The bad side for this threat, it will not work for Win98. AFAIK Win98 is FAT. I haven't tried it myself (no MS-Windows desktop around to try it on), but I doubt it actually requires NTFS. From reading the info on the Ubunto version (can't get to the info on the debian version, the site was /.ed), it simply uses an image file with everything loopmounted. So you can host the same file on MS-Windows 98, you'd just need some way to trigger the bootloading, which grub4dos(grub4dos.sf.net) seems, on the face of it, capable of doing for MS-Windows 98 - even if the Debian installer might not support anything other then NTLDR to hook it to. -- Oded ::.. If they wrote error messages in Haiku ? Windows NT crashed. I am the Blue Screen of Death. No one hears your screams. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On 28/01/07, Oded Arbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't tried it myself (no MS-Windows desktop around to try it on), but I doubt it actually requires NTFS. From reading the info on the Ubunto version (can't get to the info on the debian version, the site was /.ed), it simply uses an image file with everything loopmounted. So you can host the same file on MS-Windows 98, you'd just need some way to trigger the bootloading, which grub4dos(grub4dos.sf.net) seems, on the face of it, capable of doing for MS-Windows 98 - even if the Debian installer might not support anything other then NTLDR to hook it to. I know what a loop is, and I know what the mount command does. Please explain in simple Hebrew what exactly is loopmounting. Oxford knows not. Dotan Cohen http://technology-sleuth.com/technical_answer/how_much_memory_will_i_need_for_my_digital_camera.html http://fedorafaqs.org = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On Sunday 28 January 2007 20:33, Dotan Cohen wrote: On 28/01/07, Oded Arbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't tried it myself (no MS-Windows desktop around to try it on), but I doubt it actually requires NTFS. From reading the info on the Ubunto version (can't get to the info on the debian version, the site was /.ed), it simply uses an image file with everything loopmounted. So you can host the same file on MS-Windows 98, you'd just need some way to trigger the bootloading, which grub4dos(grub4dos.sf.net) seems, on the face of it, capable of doing for MS-Windows 98 - even if the Debian installer might not support anything other then NTLDR to hook it to. I know what a loop is, and I know what the mount command does. Please explain in simple Hebrew what exactly is loopmounting. Oxford knows not. Loopmounting involves using a file on the filesystem as a virtual disk and mounting a filesystem from there. For example I can do: $ mount -o loop -t iso9660 ./my-disk-image.iso ./directory-to-mount-on To mount an ISO file directly from its hard disk file (without burning it first). The name stems from the term loopback device. There's a similar program for Windows (that requires payment) called Alcohol 120%: http://www.alcohol-software.com/ Regards, Shlomi Fish Dotan Cohen http://technology-sleuth.com/technical_answer/how_much_memory_will_i_need_f or_my_digital_camera.html http://fedorafaqs.org = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- - Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage:http://www.shlomifish.org/ Chuck Norris wrote a complete Perl 6 implementation in a day but then destroyed all evidence with his bare hands, so no one will know his secrets. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007, Dotan Cohen wrote:
I know what a loop is, and I know what the mount command does. Please
explain in simple Hebrew what exactly is loopmounting. Oxford knows
not.
Dotan, you don't know what a loop is, since you're asking. Loop mounting
mounts a file as a partition. And Oxford is hardly the place to look up
geek terms or the unacademic answers that might occur if you do not
rtf{aq,m}. Loop has been around for long enough that asking what it is
while saying that one knows what it is can cause unexpected answers to
come up. The mount manual would be a good start for rtf{aq,m}.
Peter
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Re: booting into linux from windows98
On 28/01/07, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007, Dotan Cohen wrote:
I know what a loop is, and I know what the mount command does. Please
explain in simple Hebrew what exactly is loopmounting. Oxford knows
not.
Dotan, you don't know what a loop is, since you're asking. Loop mounting
mounts a file as a partition. And Oxford is hardly the place to look up
geek terms or the unacademic answers that might occur if you do not
rtf{aq,m}. Loop has been around for long enough that asking what it is
while saying that one knows what it is can cause unexpected answers to
come up. The mount manual would be a good start for rtf{aq,m}.
Peter
Thanks Peter. I was able to guess what it was, but I wanted to make
the point that the OS would still be running on top of NTFS. Oded
mentioned that it doesn't require NTFS. But installing it on NTFS,
even with a loopmounted ext3 filesystem, is still installing on NTFS.
Dotan Cohen
http://what-is-what.com/what_is/love.html
http://technology-sleuth.com/question/what_is_a_router.html
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Re: booting into linux from windows98
On 1/28/07, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 28 Jan 2007, Dotan Cohen wrote: Is that what we've come to? Running a Debian spinoff on NTFS? Amazing indeed. Next thing you'll know will be Linux crashing because of NTFS and users claiming 'Linux is as unstable as Windows' To add my $2e-2 to the argument, this is not a big concern. How many times have you seen NTFS crash? NTFS is not FAT (*), so windows is not really going to ruin the image file (unless the sky falls hard upon the partition, in which case windows will die as well the user will know who is to blame ;-). And from linux's side, since it's only a fixed-size image file, there is no danger of damaging the NTFS either - the only access to NTFS is read-only to find the sectors where the image file sits. (*) Still, the world is crazy in trusting all their data to a hardly documented proprietary FS... -- Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] (I read email only on weekends) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
El dom, 28-01-2007 a las 23:32 +0200, Beni Cherniavsky escribió: To add my $2e-2 to the argument, this is not a big concern. How many times have you seen NTFS crash? NTFS is not FAT (*), so windows is not really going to ruin the image file (unless the sky falls hard upon the partition, in which case windows will die as well the user will know who is to blame ;-). And from linux's side, since it's only a fixed-size image file, there is no danger of damaging the NTFS either - the only access to NTFS is read-only to find the sectors where the image file sits. (*) Still, the world is crazy in trusting all their data to a hardly documented proprietary FS... See the future improvements for install.exe, the Ubuntu version( sister) of the program. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/install.exe#head-7180a43dffb23de674cd6b75ee727a30d3b9c0ef The option to create an ext3 system and export all the OS will be available. The program will also import internet setting( maybe connections too?), emails, bokkmarks, etc... -- Julian Daich [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On Sun, 2007-01-28 at 21:04 +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote: Loopmounting involves using a file on the filesystem as a virtual disk and mounting a filesystem from there. For example I can do: There's a similar program for Windows (that requires payment) called Alcohol 120%: There's a free (as in beer) program for windows that does this, called Daemon-Tools. I'm pretty sure the Debian/Ubuntu installers aren't using it :-) -- Oded ::.. Sinbad: Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel! -- from 'The Golden Voyage of Sinbad' = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On Sun, 2007-01-28 at 22:27 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: Thanks Peter. I was able to guess what it was, but I wanted to make the point that the OS would still be running on top of NTFS. Oded mentioned that it doesn't require NTFS. But installing it on NTFS, even with a loopmounted ext3 filesystem, is still installing on NTFS. My comment was regarding Julian's e-mail: Well, it is for those whom are already running WinXP in NTFS... The bad side for this threat, it will not work for Win98. AFAIK Win98 is FAT. and in which I wanted to put to rest the fear that the Debian installer would be useless for non-NTFS supporting operating systems. -- Oded ::.. See - the thing is - I'm an absolutist. I mean, kind of ... in a way ... = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On 28/01/07, Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/28/07, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 28 Jan 2007, Dotan Cohen wrote: Is that what we've come to? Running a Debian spinoff on NTFS? Amazing indeed. Next thing you'll know will be Linux crashing because of NTFS and users claiming 'Linux is as unstable as Windows' To add my $2e-2 to the argument, this is not a big concern. How many times have you seen NTFS crash? NTFS is not FAT (*), so windows is not really going to ruin the image file (unless the sky falls hard upon the partition, in which case windows will die as well the user will know who is to blame ;-). And from linux's side, since it's only a fixed-size image file, there is no danger of damaging the NTFS either - the only access to NTFS is read-only to find the sectors where the image file sits. The ext3 file is stored on the NTFS disk. Any time you write to the ext3 file, you are writing to NTFS. NTFS write support is BAD for Linux. Furthermore, MS could see how Linux is writing to NTFS and 'update' Windows and the filesystem to change the API a bit. Like you said, it's undocumented, and it could change at any time. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com/what_is/ajax.html http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/lyrics/52/16/ac-dc/fly_on_the_wall.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On 29/01/07, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The ext3 file is stored on the NTFS disk. Any time you write to the ext3 file, you are writing to NTFS. NTFS write support is BAD for Linux. Ever heard of ntfs-3g (http://www.ntfs-3g.org/)? Apparently it improved things enough to be considered good for production environments. Even before that - as far as I remember the old driver could write to files without changing their sizes for many years, it was new block allocation that took a while to work. Furthermore, MS could see how Linux is writing to NTFS and 'update' Windows and the filesystem to change the API a bit. Like you said, it's undocumented, and it could change at any time. That's too much paranoia. So many tools use the API to write to NTFS that MS can't just change the API under everyone's feet without warning. I know they keep doing this from one version to another, and the DrDos case yadayadayada, but it's too simplistic to put this prediction that way and I don't believe that this particular niche of linux being able to write to NTFS partitions directly is worth MS any amount of resources to tackle. --Amos
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On 29/01/07, Amos Shapira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 29/01/07, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The ext3 file is stored on the NTFS disk. Any time you write to the ext3 file, you are writing to NTFS. NTFS write support is BAD for Linux. Ever heard of ntfs-3g ( http://www.ntfs-3g.org/)? Apparently it improved things enough to be considered good for production environments. Even before that - as far as I remember the old driver could write to files without changing their sizes for many years, it was new block allocation that took a while to work. So you are saying that once the ext3 file[system] is allocated (under windows), then it can be writen to, but not have it's size changed. That sounds logical, as that's how a disk partition would work anyway. Furthermore, MS could see how Linux is writing to NTFS and 'update' Windows and the filesystem to change the API a bit. Like you said, it's undocumented, and it could change at any time. That's too much paranoia. The paranoid survive. So many tools use the API to write to NTFS that MS can't just change the API under everyone's feet without warning. I know they keep doing this from one version to another, and the DrDos case yadayadayada, but it's too simplistic to put this prediction that way and I don't believe that this particular niche of linux being able to write to NTFS partitions directly is worth MS any amount of resources to tackle. McAfree, PartitionMagic and Norton are already in bed with MS. Keeping big business afloat while drowning the little guy is something that MS has done many times in the past. What does MS care if MoshePartition suddenly stops working? Dotan Cohen http://essentialinux.com/locale.php http://what-is-what.com/what_is/microsoft.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On 29/01/07, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 29/01/07, Amos Shapira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 29/01/07, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The ext3 file is stored on the NTFS disk. Any time you write to the ext3 file, you are writing to NTFS. NTFS write support is BAD for Linux. Ever heard of ntfs-3g ( http://www.ntfs-3g.org/)? Apparently it improved things enough to be considered good for production environments. Even before that - as far as I remember the old driver could write to files without changing their sizes for many years, it was new block allocation that took a while to work. So you are saying that once the ext3 file[system] is allocated (under windows), then it can be writen to, but not have it's size changed. That sounds logical, as that's how a disk partition would work anyway. That's what I'd expect. Not that it's necessarily so - Sun's ZFS works by allocating new blocks for every write (so the update is atomic, and you can get file revisions for free), but as far as I remember the history of NTFS on linux overwriting existing blocks works even with the old driver. PS - a little 0.01$ about the other thread - ntfs-3g is currently available as a Fuse implementation, I'd expect them to move in-kernel once they feel it's stable enough... :) Furthermore, MS could see how Linux is writing to NTFS and 'update' Windows and the filesystem to change the API a bit. Like you said, it's undocumented, and it could change at any time. That's too much paranoia. The paranoid survive. They can also waste resources and opportunities by thinking that the competition is too strong... has done many times in the past. What does MS care if MoshePartition suddenly stops working? What do they care if Linux NTFS keeps working? --Amos
Re: booting into linux from windows98
On 29/01/07, Amos Shapira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do they care if Linux NTFS keeps working? Vender lock-in is Microsoft's number-two business model, right behind Extend, Embrace, Extinguish. How many people do you know that continue to use Windows because their old software/ files are accesable only with MS products? Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/lyrics/139/12/aaliyah/aaliyah.html http://technology-sleuth.com/long_answer/what_is_hdtv.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
