Re: [List admins] Invitation to test mailing list mirroring and emulation in Wikimedia Space

[Quim Gil]

Hi, just an update on this.

https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/c/mailing-lists

We are starting with these mailing lists:

* Education (crreated last Friday)
* African Wikimedians (created today)
* Wikispore (coming next)
* WikimediaPT (and next)

This is a real example of an email sent to a mirrored mailing list from an
email address (a user) registered in Space:
https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/re-wikimedia-education-exciting-update-call-for-submission-of-november-education-newsletter/2247

Such mirrored posts count as contributions from the Space user, and any
likes etc are reflected in their user stats.

Here you can see what happens when the email address (the user) is not
registered in Space:
https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/wikimedia-education-invitation-for-critical-reflections-on-education-open-participation-and-democracy-november-27-berlin/2264

In such cases, Discourse creates a "staged account", like a placeholder. If
a user registers with such email address, the posts authored by the staged
account will be assigned automatically to the new user, together with its
related stats.

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 6:02 PM Quim Gil  wrote:

> Hi, I have just published a proposal to start testing mailing list
> mirroring and emulation at the Discourse instance we have at Wikimedia
> Space.
>
> If you are interested in discussing and exploring potential post-Mailman
> scenarios, join in.
>
> Check the proposal at
> https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/testing-the-path-from-mailing-lists-to-wikimedia-space/1934.
> Feedback is welcome there or here.  :)
>
> If you want to propose a mailing list to mirror or you are personally
> interested in testing mailing list emulation, let's talk.
>
> --
> Quim Gil (he/him)
> Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
>


-- 
Quim Gil (he/him)
Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
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Re: [List admins] Invitation to test mailing list mirroring and emulation in Wikimedia Space

[masti]

  
  
+1
webbased solutions are not good equivalent to mailing list. The
latter are much more flexible.
So I also would rather see mailing list migration to someting newer
than Mailman 2 than move to a webbased solution

masti

On 29.10.2019 19:27, MA wrote:


  
  Hi,


I feel the same as Risker and think we should
  instead investigate how to upgrade our mailing lists to
  Mailman 3.


Regards, M.
  
  
  
El mar., 29 oct. 2019 18:27,
  Risker  escribió:


  
Hi Quim -


Perhaps it would be helpful if you were to identify
  what types of lists are suitable for mirroring, and what
  happens when they are mirrored, because that is not clear
  from your post.  (And no, I don't want to have to have
  *another* software experience just to ask these
  questions.)


For example:

  
Are all mirrored lists publicly accessible and
  viewable?  Is there a way to control even read-only
  access?

Are private mailing lists suitable for Discourse?
Is everything archived? If so, how, and who controls
  them?

Can archives be modified, and if so, by whom?
How does editing/responding to mailing list posts on
  the Discourse mirror get reflected in the main mailing
  list? 

Can lists have individual guidelines that are
  different from the "common" ones?   

  
  I will note that all of the lists I administer are
*not* public lists, and several are non-archiving.  They
each have different guidelines as to what should and
should not be included and/or discussed on them.  
  
  
  
  Risker/Anne
  

  
  
  
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at
  13:02, Quim Gil 
  wrote:


  Hi, I have just published a proposal to
start testing mailing list mirroring and emulation at
the Discourse instance we have at Wikimedia Space.


If you are interested in discussing and exploring
  potential post-Mailman scenarios, join in.
  
  
  Check the proposal at https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/testing-the-path-from-mailing-lists-to-wikimedia-space/1934.
Feedback is welcome there or here.  :)  
  
  
  If you want to propose a mailing list to mirror
or you are personally interested in testing mailing
list emulation, let's talk.
  


-- 

  

  Quim Gil (he/him)
Senior Manager of Community Relations @
Wikimedia Foundation
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF

  

  

  
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Re: [List admins] Invitation to test mailing list mirroring and emulation in Wikimedia Space

[Luca Martinelli]

Dear all,

I'm not against this decision, in fact I'm in favour and I think it
would be the only possibility for Wikimedia Space to actually work out
in the end.

Given all the problems with personal data that we have, we might need
to decide if some *public* ML wants to be a beta-tester for Space. Who
wants to go forward? :)

L.

Il giorno gio 31 ott 2019 alle ore 11:23 Quim Gil 
ha scritto:
>
> Yes Platonides, your comment (and bd808's at Space) makes me realize that I 
> hadn’t stressed this point, which is completely assumed in this topic.
>
> This proposal is about testing, and a private mailing list with sensitive 
> information wouldn’t be a good candidate for these first tests even if Space 
> would be in production and not in Cloud VPS.
>
> We can still test private mailing list mirroring, for instance taking any 
> public mailing list and mirroring privately to test access control without 
> compromising anything.
>
> We can also test private mailing list emulation by having non-confidential 
> chit chat in a private setting to test access control, again without 
> compromising anything.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 8:17 AM Platonides  wrote:
>>
>> Hello Quim
>>
>> Given that this is currently implemented on WMCS, I would think that their 
>> terms would prevail and certain private mailing lists NOT allowed be copied 
>> at all there  (for instance a list where checkusers disccussed about vandal 
>> ranges), since it's on an "untrusted" network/servers that shall not contain 
>> such private data. Other private mailing lists may qualify, depending on 
>> what is actually discussed there (e.g. I would see no issue with a signpost 
>> editorial comments mailing list). And obviously, the content of public lists 
>> is simply... public.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> ___
>> Listadmins mailing list
>> Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins
>>
>> By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To 
>> request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in 
>> Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
>
>
> --
> Quim Gil (he/him)
> Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
> ___
> Listadmins mailing list
> Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins
>
> By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To 
> request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in 
> Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists



-- 
Luca "Sannita" Martinelli
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita

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Re: [List admins] Invitation to test mailing list mirroring and emulation in Wikimedia Space

[Quim Gil]

Yes Platonides, your comment (and bd808's at Space) makes me realize that I
hadn’t stressed this point, which is completely assumed in this topic.

This proposal is about testing, and a private mailing list with sensitive
information wouldn’t be a good candidate for these first tests even if
Space would be in production and not in Cloud VPS.

We can still test private mailing list mirroring, for instance taking any
public mailing list and mirroring privately to test access control without
compromising anything.

We can also test private mailing list emulation by having non-confidential
chit chat in a private setting to test access control, again without
compromising anything.

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 8:17 AM Platonides  wrote:

> Hello Quim
>
> Given that this is currently implemented on WMCS, I would think that their
> terms would prevail and certain private mailing lists NOT allowed be copied
> at all there  (for instance a list where checkusers disccussed about vandal
> ranges), since it's on an "untrusted" network/servers that shall not
> contain such private data. Other private mailing lists may qualify,
> depending on what is actually discussed there (e.g. I would see no issue
> with a signpost editorial comments mailing list). And obviously, the
> content of public lists is simply... public.
>
> Best regards
>
> ___
> Listadmins mailing list
> Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins
>
> By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To
> request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in
> Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists



-- 
Quim Gil (he/him)
Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
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Re: [List admins] Invitation to test mailing list mirroring and emulation in Wikimedia Space

[Platonides]

Hello Quim

Given that this is currently implemented on WMCS, I would think that their
terms would prevail and certain private mailing lists NOT allowed be copied
at all there  (for instance a list where checkusers disccussed about vandal
ranges), since it's on an "untrusted" network/servers that shall not
contain such private data. Other private mailing lists may qualify,
depending on what is actually discussed there (e.g. I would see no issue
with a signpost editorial comments mailing list). And obviously, the
content of public lists is simply... public.

Best regards
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Re: [List admins] Invitation to test mailing list mirroring and emulation in Wikimedia Space

[Quim Gil]

(Just FYI, all the questions asked in different channels are being
collected at
https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/testing-the-path-from-mailing-lists-to-wikimedia-space/1934
)

Thank you for the initial round of feedback. I think I am addressing all
the points below.
Why change?

This is in fact the most interesting question. It is tempting to think that
if mailing list users declare they are happy with mailing lists, then there
is nothing to discuss. However, we have to think (and to Risker’s point)
that mailing list users who aren’t happy just go elsewhere, or don’t even
join a mailing list, usually relying on commercial social media products
completely outside of the Wikimedia movement and its values.

Here we are trying to propose a Space for discussion, collaboration and
support that can bring (back) together those who are still using mailing
lists AND those who are having their Wikimedia conversations in Facebook,
Telegram, etc.
Private mailing lists

Yes, private mailing lists can be mirrored or emulated, and access
permissions can be granted more or less like in Mailman. Space admins can
create a group (corresponding to a mailing list) and assign the mailing
list admins as owners, then the owners can invite & unsubscribe users. And
then a private category can be created to host the messages, with access
permissions restricted to members of that group.

Space administrators  have access
to all content, just like they have access to all the content in the site.
And just like with Mailman (I guess) SRE and whoever has access to the
servers have the technical possibility to access to the content too, which
is not encrypted in the database.
Replying from Discourse to mailing list mirrors

Not possible. Mailing list mirrors are read-only. If posting from Discourse
is wanted, then you want mailing list emulation (which means leaving your
current Mailman mailing list behind).
Editable archives

The content of mailing list mirrors is not supposed to be edited. However,
Space admins have edit permissions that can be exercised if something HAS
to be edited. They can also delete messages archived.

In the case of mailing list emulation, regular permissions apply and
authors can edit their own posts within a time frame that can be defined in
the site preferences. Moderators and administrators can edit past messages
too.
Guidelines specific to a certain mailing list / category

Totally negotiable for private, invitation-only categories/mailing lists
where people join for a specific task, in a specific role, and the content
is not even visible for the Space community. Common sense prevails. If a
category wants to set additional guidelines for themselves on top of
the general
guidelines , they probably
can as long as the whole is consistent.

If a group e.g. ArbCom has special needs that might conflict with a literal
reading of the guidelines (e.g. investigate users that have been reported
in a project) common sense keeps prevailing, trust matters, and an official
and legitimate activity in one Wikimedia channel should be able to operate
under the same premises in Wikimedia Space.
Mailing lists without archives

An equivalent of this functionality is currently not supported in
Discourse. We could commission the development of a plugin that would
delete posts from the web UI and the database after they have been
distributed via email. When asked, Discourse maintainers said it wouldn’t
be difficult to write such plugin, it is just not a priority for them.
“What we’d lose (user experience)”

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse#What_we’d_lose_(user_experience)

lists
some points as potential disadvantages of Discourse over Mailman (fun fact,
the archived email

containing
this question has a broken link). 


   -

   Problems with email rendering? The promise is to offer no functionality
   loss to Mailman users. We want to test mailing list mirroring and
   emulations precisely to get a first impression about problems in real use
   if any (and file bugs accordingly).
   -

   Email forwarding? Same thing, let’s test and see what are the problems
   if any.
   -

   Problems subscribing. OK, there is room for improvement indeed, both for
   making easier to understand how subscribing works (the subscription itself
   is easy, clicking a button) and for implementing mailing list mode per
   category . Again, testing
   just helps understanding the actual impact of this problem (which can be
   compared with the problems that users face the first time they learn about
   mailing lists, which also brings a learning curve).

Other points are listed in that section but I don’t believe they are
relevant, or actual “losses”.


On Tue, Oct 

Re: [List admins] Invitation to test mailing list mirroring and emulation in Wikimedia Space

[Risker]

Ah, I see. It's a snazzy forum.

Yeah, not appropriate for anything that would be considered private or
sensitive.  In fact, most of the private lists wouldn't be able to use it
because they could not comply with the Code of Conduct, since those private
lists are *likely* to include discussions that include private or personal
information.

Nonetheless, I don't have a baseline objection to those who are listadmins
for public lists to consider supplementing (or, depending on their mailing
list community) folding their mailing list into this. Perhaps it would draw
more people away from Facebook and Twitteralthough I suspect that
people use those products for very different reasons that have little to do
with Wikimedia work.

Risker/Anne

On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 17:34, Todd Allen  wrote:

> Yeah, that sounds like a pretty firm no. I don't see what the problem with
> the current setup is; it seems to do just fine.
>
> Todd
>
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:26 PM Brad Jorsch (Anomie) <
> bjor...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:02 PM Quim Gil  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, I have just published a proposal to start testing mailing list
>>> mirroring and emulation at the Discourse instance we have at Wikimedia
>>> Space.
>>>
>>
>> Is this emulation still subject to the disadvantages documented at
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse#What_we'd_lose_(user_experience)
>> ?
>>
>> --
>> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
>> Senior Software Engineer
>> Wikimedia Foundation
>> ___
>> Listadmins mailing list
>> Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins
>>
>> By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To
>> request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in
>> Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
> ___
> Listadmins mailing list
> Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins
>
> By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To
> request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in
> Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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Re: [List admins] Invitation to test mailing list mirroring and emulation in Wikimedia Space

[Todd Allen]

Yeah, that sounds like a pretty firm no. I don't see what the problem with
the current setup is; it seems to do just fine.

Todd

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:26 PM Brad Jorsch (Anomie) 
wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:02 PM Quim Gil  wrote:
>
>> Hi, I have just published a proposal to start testing mailing list
>> mirroring and emulation at the Discourse instance we have at Wikimedia
>> Space.
>>
>
> Is this emulation still subject to the disadvantages documented at
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse#What_we'd_lose_(user_experience)
> ?
>
> --
> Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
> Senior Software Engineer
> Wikimedia Foundation
> ___
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> Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins
>
> By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To
> request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in
> Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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Re: [List admins] Invitation to test mailing list mirroring and emulation in Wikimedia Space

[Brad Jorsch (Anomie)]

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 1:02 PM Quim Gil  wrote:

> Hi, I have just published a proposal to start testing mailing list
> mirroring and emulation at the Discourse instance we have at Wikimedia
> Space.
>

Is this emulation still subject to the disadvantages documented at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse#What_we'd_lose_(user_experience)?

-- 
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [List admins] Invitation to test mailing list mirroring and emulation in Wikimedia Space

[MA]

Hi,

I feel the same as Risker and think we should instead investigate how to
upgrade our mailing lists to Mailman 3.

Regards, M.

El mar., 29 oct. 2019 18:27, Risker  escribió:

> Hi Quim -
>
> Perhaps it would be helpful if you were to identify what types of lists
> are suitable for mirroring, and what happens when they are mirrored,
> because that is not clear from your post.  (And no, I don't want to have to
> have *another* software experience just to ask these questions.)
>
> For example:
>
>- Are all mirrored lists publicly accessible and viewable?  Is there a
>way to control even read-only access?
>- Are private mailing lists suitable for Discourse?
>- Is everything archived? If so, how, and who controls them?
>- Can archives be modified, and if so, by whom?
>- How does editing/responding to mailing list posts on the Discourse
>mirror get reflected in the main mailing list?
>- Can lists have individual guidelines that are different from the
>"common" ones?
>
> I will note that all of the lists I administer are *not* public lists, and
> several are non-archiving.  They each have different guidelines as to what
> should and should not be included and/or discussed on them.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 13:02, Quim Gil  wrote:
>
>> Hi, I have just published a proposal to start testing mailing list
>> mirroring and emulation at the Discourse instance we have at Wikimedia
>> Space.
>>
>> If you are interested in discussing and exploring potential post-Mailman
>> scenarios, join in.
>>
>> Check the proposal at
>> https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/testing-the-path-from-mailing-lists-to-wikimedia-space/1934.
>> Feedback is welcome there or here.  :)
>>
>> If you want to propose a mailing list to mirror or you are personally
>> interested in testing mailing list emulation, let's talk.
>>
>> --
>> Quim Gil (he/him)
>> Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
>> ___
>> Listadmins mailing list
>> Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins
>>
>> By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To
>> request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in
>> Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
> ___
> Listadmins mailing list
> Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins
>
> By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To
> request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in
> Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
___
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request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in 
Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

Re: [List admins] Invitation to test mailing list mirroring and emulation in Wikimedia Space

[Risker]

Hi Quim -

Perhaps it would be helpful if you were to identify what types of lists are
suitable for mirroring, and what happens when they are mirrored, because
that is not clear from your post.  (And no, I don't want to have to have
*another* software experience just to ask these questions.)

For example:

   - Are all mirrored lists publicly accessible and viewable?  Is there a
   way to control even read-only access?
   - Are private mailing lists suitable for Discourse?
   - Is everything archived? If so, how, and who controls them?
   - Can archives be modified, and if so, by whom?
   - How does editing/responding to mailing list posts on the Discourse
   mirror get reflected in the main mailing list?
   - Can lists have individual guidelines that are different from the
   "common" ones?

I will note that all of the lists I administer are *not* public lists, and
several are non-archiving.  They each have different guidelines as to what
should and should not be included and/or discussed on them.

Risker/Anne

On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 13:02, Quim Gil  wrote:

> Hi, I have just published a proposal to start testing mailing list
> mirroring and emulation at the Discourse instance we have at Wikimedia
> Space.
>
> If you are interested in discussing and exploring potential post-Mailman
> scenarios, join in.
>
> Check the proposal at
> https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/testing-the-path-from-mailing-lists-to-wikimedia-space/1934.
> Feedback is welcome there or here.  :)
>
> If you want to propose a mailing list to mirror or you are personally
> interested in testing mailing list emulation, let's talk.
>
> --
> Quim Gil (he/him)
> Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
> ___
> Listadmins mailing list
> Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins
>
> By sending a message to this list, you email all admins of all lists. To
> request technical changes for a specific list, instead create a task in
> Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
___
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Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists

[List admins] Invitation to test mailing list mirroring and emulation in Wikimedia Space

[Quim Gil]

Hi, I have just published a proposal to start testing mailing list
mirroring and emulation at the Discourse instance we have at Wikimedia
Space.

If you are interested in discussing and exploring potential post-Mailman
scenarios, join in.

Check the proposal at
https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/testing-the-path-from-mailing-lists-to-wikimedia-space/1934.
Feedback is welcome there or here.  :)

If you want to propose a mailing list to mirror or you are personally
interested in testing mailing list emulation, let's talk.

-- 
Quim Gil (he/him)
Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
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